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Seneca the Younger

Tonight's Televised Football (Merged)

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Sterling and Kane, possibly add Maguire, and there you have our three players who are decent and can be counted on to deliver at a Championship.

The rest, are over-hyped, obscenely paid wasters. 

If only an England Manager, for once, would look to build a team based on spirit, fight and determination rather than get trapped into picking the next Premier League starlet who, inevitably, are found out at international level.

Those three players, with experienced, desperate and proud to play-for-the-shirt Championship players that had a team ethic would have performed far better than the mob we saw tonight. 

 

 

 

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Southgate is good at talking to the media. That's about it.

The way he set us up to defend those corners is schoolboy stuff. And going forward no creativity yet we have Kane, Sancho and Sterling. How can he have such talent and still fail?

You do not play Henderson and Rice in a 2. You need a natural ball player. A Harry Winks for example. Mount was advanced and we could not get it through our midfield.

And he actually rates Trippier higher than Trent, he rates Rose higher than Chilwell. And Michael Keane is diabolical at international level. Adam Webster is far better. Keane can't dribble, or pass and is actually very clumsy and full of mistakes.

By the next world cup we will have just about the best players in the world, will certainly at least be right up there imo. We need someone who we know is a great coach to get tge best out of them.

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Let’s be honest, our midfield and defence are abysmally bad. 

No creativtiy from centre midfield which meant we resorted to launching it long to Harry Kane who had little or no support half the time. 

There was an article on BBC sport earlier about whether the England front 3 is the best in the world. That’s all well and good if they have any service, and tonight our midfield was so static it was embarrassing. 

The fact our best defender tonight was Harry maguire, and average PL centre back who’s price tag was massively overinflated because he’s english says a lot. 

Pickford is a good keeper but why does he continue to try and play the ball out from the back in such tight situations, he isn’t Ederson or neuer and doesn’t have the skill set to do it consistently. 

Fair play to the Czechs though, unlike us they had a game plan, stuck to it, put 110% into the game and it paid off. 

Cant wait for my first live England game v Montenegro...

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Shambolic performance. Not a defender worth their place in the team. Midfield likewise. Completely out played. I thought Sterling always looked dangerous and Kane was ok until he tired. 

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12 minutes ago, RedDave said:

I’ve never once understood why rice is so highly rated. Wouldn’t even have him in the squad. same with Keane. Probably wouldn’t have Barkley in the squad either. Pickford plays every game yet Pope is so much better. Don’t even think Ox was in the squad. He’d be in my starting XI. 

The England midfield has been poor for most of the time that Southgate has been manager. Limited ability and minimal creativity. He has ignored players such as Maddison, while picking Rice. He has also played players on reputation rather than being in any sort of form. He has persevered with Barkley, even when he hasn’t exactly shone at Chelsea. 

Southgate wasn’t a great club manager. He has been lucky to have Kane, Sterling and a few good attacking youngsters as England manager. However there is little evidence that he can forge a tournament winning team, and even though we will have home advantage for the latter stages of Euro 2020, there are other nations who are more likely to win, such as the Netherlands.

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I'm guessing Roy Keane was saying the same at the end as he did at the half time..it's why hes such a crap manager. He put it down to fight, not wanting it. He would just go in the dressing room and shout at them without sorting out the real problems. 

They all wanted to win just like any other game they play. The problem was tactics. Czech exploited us and Southgate could not work out what needed doing. It's why he isn't good enough.

Think back to the Croatia semi final and he just stood there arms folded not having a clue that 3 of our centre backs were marking 1 player whilst Croatia dominated midfield and pushed our wing backs far back. Southgate can't win those tactical battles against opposing managers.

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20 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Digressing slightly, but he reminded me of another 'East European' bald centre forward, an absolute giant of a man whose name now escapes me - he has retired now, but I am pretty sure he used to play for Dortmund.

Can anybody on here remember his name?

Jan Koller? Giant Czech forward that I think I remember from France '98.

Edited by ExiledAjax
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11 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Southgate is good at talking to the media. That's about it.

The way he set us up to defend those corners is schoolboy stuff. And going forward no creativity yet we have Kane, Sancho and Sterling. How can he have such talent and still fail?

You do not play Henderson and Rice in a 2. You need a natural ball player. A Harry Winks for example. Mount was advanced and we could not get it through our midfield.

And he actually rates Trippier higher than Trent, he rates Rose higher than Chilwell. And Michael Keane is diabolical at international level. Adam Webster is far better. Keane can't dribble, or pass and is actually very clumsy and full of mistakes.

By the next world cup we will have just about the best players in the world, will certainly at least be right up there imo. We need someone who we know is a great coach to get tge best out of them.

I would not be surprised if, for various reasons, that was Danny Rose's last game for England.

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2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Jan Koller? Giant Czech forward that I think I remember from France '98.

Thank You 👏.

I have just checked, and he was 2.02 metres (6.7 tall) and weighed 106kg!

He retired 10 years ago.

 

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29 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I would not be surprised if, for various reasons, that was Danny Rose's last game for England.

I said the very same thing earlier.  He was abject.  I'm all for supporting people with MH issues but exposing them at an elite level in sport when they aren't up to it is not supporting him.  Chilwell is a Rolls Royce to Rose's Ford Fiesta.

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Watching Michael Keane and considering the other 2 CBs in the squad are Mings and TImori, Adam Webster should be playing next to Maguire.  Put simply, he is superior to all 3 by some way.  He's an upgrade on Stones.  Gomez isn't actually proven in any way.  I can't see a better option.

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8 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Watching Michael Keane and considering the other 2 CBs in the squad are Mings and TImori, Adam Webster should be playing next to Maguire.  Put simply, he is superior to all 3 by some way.  He's an upgrade on Stones.  Gomez isn't actually proven in any way.  I can't see a better option.

Webster an upgrade on stones?

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2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Webster an upgrade on stones?

Yep.  Stones is a busted flush.  Pushed too hard in order to live up to a standard he can't keep to by Pep.   Webster has a lot of improvement in him.  

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes, - will be with some more Premier Experience

IMHO

 

No chance imo. 

Stones is a year older, Guardiolas first choice centre back with two premier league titles under his belt, multiple England appearances and opportunities on the main stage. 

Webster could very easily be a later bloomer but from what I’ve seen of them both, and the level they’ve both played at. There is little chance Webster will become a better player, even if I put my city tinted glasses on...

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1 minute ago, The Bard said:

Yep.  Stones is a busted flush.  Pushed too hard in order to live up to a standard he can't keep to by Pep.   Webster has a lot of improvement in him.  

Possibly. Not sure if stones is down yet but a dearth of CB options means the class of Webster is surely a better option than keane.

Full backs were possibly a bigger issue tonight . How on earth trippier and rose got the nod ahead of TAA and chilwell is insane. Chilwell’s ace. 

Rice and Henderson is a seriously poor midfield selection too. 

Southgate has done loads right in the last few years but got it totally wrong tonight.....

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3 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Yep.  Stones is a busted flush.  Pushed too hard in order to live up to a standard he can't keep to by Pep.   Webster has a lot of improvement in him.  

Webster does I agree, but so does Stones provided he gets back to full fitness. 

If you were given the choice between a fully fit John stones and a fully fit Adam Webster would you seriously go for Webster?

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1 minute ago, The chief said:

Possibly. Not sure if stones is down yet but a dearth of CB options means the class of Webster is surely a better option than keane.

Full backs were possibly a bigger issue tonight . How on earth trippier and rose got the nod ahead of TAA and chilwell is insane. Chilwell’s ace. 

Rice and Henderson is a seriously poor midfield selection too. 

Southgate has done loads right in the last few years but got it totally wrong tonight.....

Midfield is a massive issue.  Rice is overrated IMHO.  Winks a much better option next to Henderson.

 

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40 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

No chance imo. 

Stones is a year older, Guardiolas first choice centre back with two premier league titles under his belt, multiple England appearances and opportunities on the main stage. 

Webster could very easily be a later bloomer but from what I’ve seen of them both, and the level they’ve both played at. There is little chance Webster will become a better player, even if I put my city tinted glasses on...

Blinded by the one time hype I’d suggest 

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Blinded by the one time hype I’d suggest 

I’d suggest exactly the same for you. 

The one problem being, Stones’ hype has lasted circa 5 years in the premier league and Europe whereas Webster’s has lasted around a season whilst playing in the championship...

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For me Keane and Rose need to be removed from the international set up. I’m not sure how Keane is in there to be honest. Both not good enough.
 

If that’s the standard of our CB then Webster should be banging the door down.

Southgate’s biggest mistake tonight though was playing Henderson and Rice together. Just lacked energy and spark in there!

 

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5 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

I’d suggest exactly the same for you. 

The one problem being, Stones’ hype has lasted circa 5 years in the premier league and Europe whereas Webster’s has lasted around a season whilst playing in the championship...

When’s the last time you saw Stones in a game where he’s impressed ?

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6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

When’s the last time you saw Stones in a game where he’s impressed ?

I thought he looked good against West Ham to be honest. 

Then again it’s very difficult for him to stand out, this is a Man City side who we know are going to trounce teams and so defensively it’s more impressive when the defenders don’t stand out as you know they’re doing their job properly. 

Compare that to Webster who at Brighton needs to have excellent games to stand out in a side who will be looking to their defence in over half their games. 

Realistically though, Stones has a much better pedigree and is of similar age to Webster, objectively you have to admit he’s a better player and will have probably already achieved more than Webster could dream of and may well continue to go and achieve even more

Edited by JBFC II

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3 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

I thought he looked good against West Ham to be honest. 

Then again it’s very difficult for him to stand out, this is a Man City side who we know are going to trounce teams and so defensively it’s more impressive when the defenders don’t stand out as you know they’re doing their job properly. 

Compare that to Webster who st Brighton needs to have excellent games to stand out in a side who will be looking to their defence in over half their games. 

So what about his game & attributes do you think puts him at a different level to Webster then .......

 & Have you actually watched Webster this season ?

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

So what about his game & attributes do you think puts him at a different level to Webster then .......

He’s better on the ball. 

He’s got better positioning. 

He’s more experienced which gives him that extra bit of nous that always helps a defender. 

He’s calmer and seems to know when to bring the ball out better than Webster currently.

Overall, I think you’re kidding yourself if you think Webster is a better defender than John Stones 

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John Stones, according to who scored has an average rating of 6.9 over 181 games in the premier league, World Cup, champions league, Europa league, nations league. 

Adam Webster, over his 5 premier league games has an average rating of 6.87.

So Stones has been consistently better, at a high level, for longer

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1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

He’s better on the ball. 

He’s got better positioning. 

He’s more experienced which gives him that extra bit of nous that always helps a defender. 

He’s calmer and seems to know when to bring the ball out better than Webster currently.

Overall, I think you’re kidding yourself if you think Webster is a better defender than John Stones 

Don’t do your usual and start making silly comments like your final sentence unless you want your usual argument with someone or other

‘Better on the ball’  - lazy generalisation 

Webster is two footed, doesn’t try fancy Cruyff turns a la Stones , doesn’t make the same errors as Stones does on a regular basis , Webster a superior passer so ,I’m far from kidding myself ta

Better Positioning - Neither the best out and out defenders but if you think Stones positioning is good ......well

And calmer ?   Try casual - I’ll refer you back to numerous errors

 

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16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don’t do your usual and start making silly comments like your final sentence unless you want your usual argument with someone or other

‘Better on the ball’  - lazy generalisation 

Webster is two footed, doesn’t try fancy Cruyff turns a la Stones , doesn’t make the same errors as Stones does on a regular basis , Webster a superior passer so ,I’m far from kidding myself ta

Better Positioning - Neither the best out and out defenders but if you think Stones positioning is good ......well

And calmer ?   Try casual - I’ll refer you back to numerous errors

 

Again, this is just from what I’ve seen.

Stones is better with the ball at his feet. Let’s not forget, Webster has spent the last few years playing against much worse opponents where the pressing game is less impressive making it easier for players to bring the ball out. Then this season, against Man City he struggled. Who scored gave him a 6.06 rating for that one. Admittedly I didn’t watch the game, but it shows he wasn’t up to the standard needed against the second best side in the country, who John Stones plays for. 

Stones has improved and cut out mistakes, yes they are still there (a la Netherlands in the nations league) but that’s the risk ball playing defenders take. 

To claim Webster ‘doesn’t make the same errors Stones does on a regular basis’ is questionable, when you consider the amount of games he’s played at premier league level. He showed himself out to be a top championship defender, but the premier league is a whole different ball game. Yes he had an excellent game against an abysmal spurs side, but will he be able to do it for 180 games plus whilst making no mistakes? I doubt it.

Lets not forget, Webster was part of a city defence that conceded 53 goals last season, more than one a game. i get that isn’t a fair reflection of his performances, but I would argue that with multiple premier league winning, England international John Stones in our defence, we would have conceded less

Webster a superior passer? Stones regularly has a 90% plus pass completion ratio, I don’t recall Webster having stats like that. 

In fact, Stones has averaged a 91% pass completion ratio since his move to Everton, at the top level of English and international football. Webster’s is at 79.5% since he joined us. That’s a massive difference, and shows that Webster certainly isn’t a ‘better passer’

Edited by JBFC II

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46 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Again, this is just from what I’ve seen.

Stones is better with the ball at his feet. Let’s not forget, Webster has spent the last few years playing against much worse opponents where the pressing game is less impressive making it easier for players to bring the ball out. Then this season, against Man City he struggled. Who scored gave him a 6.06 rating for that one. Admittedly I didn’t watch the game, but it shows he wasn’t up to the standard needed against the second best side in the country, who John Stones plays for. 

Stones has improved and cut out mistakes, yes they are still there (a la Netherlands in the nations league) but that’s the risk ball playing defenders take. 

To claim Webster ‘doesn’t make the same errors Stones does on a regular basis’ is questionable, when you consider the amount of games he’s played at premier league level. He showed himself out to be a top championship defender, but the premier league is a whole different ball game. Yes he had an excellent game against an abysmal spurs side, but will he be able to do it for 180 games plus whilst making no mistakes? I doubt it.

Lets not forget, Webster was part of a city defence that conceded 53 goals last season, more than one a game. i get that isn’t a fair reflection of his performances, but I would argue that with multiple premier league winning, England international John Stones in our defence, we would have conceded less

Webster a superior passer? Stones regularly has a 90% plus pass completion ratio, I don’t recall Webster having stats like that. 

In fact, Stones has averaged a 91% pass completion ratio since his move to Everton, at the top level of English and international football. Webster’s is at 79.5% since he joined us. That’s a massive difference, and shows that Webster certainly isn’t a ‘better passer’

You highlight a flaw in Stones by your own posts

How Long has Stones been hyped you pointed out ? ‘Circa 5 years’

How much has he improved in that time ?

5 years

(I’d say he initially improved and has since digressed , still , regularly making errors)

Webster has the ability and capacity to improve , is on the up atm , and if he does will certainly be a better player than Stones IMHO , if he isn’t already

As for your passing stats - is that how you judge who is the ‘better passer’ ?

You don’t consider or factor ? in things like

options , dependent on quality / movement of teammates , ....passing distances , ......passing ‘risks’ taken ? Etc 

Put Webster in the Man City side and Stones In Brighton’s and you may review your opinion

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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2 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Thank You 👏.

I have just checked, and he was 2.02 metres (6.7 tall) and weighed 106kg!

He retired 10 years ago.

 

I "Czeched"* as well...he was later than '98. More '02 and Euro '04. Still, remember him as a massive lump who Pavel Nedved spent hours and hours trying to find with lofted through balls.

*Sorry

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overpaid tossers the lot of them, who couldn't be bothered to turn up, feel sorry for the fans who did turn up. Couldn't watch no more after HT :gaah:

Just read on beeb the headline 14 English fans were arrested....further down there were 31 arrests making us the minority group..bias against English fans?

Edited by glos old boy

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Unless we limit the number of foreign players in our Leagues than the England National team is only ever going to get worse - we have an ever decreasing pool of quality English players to pick from. I really hope not, but I fear we are a Scotland waiting to happen in the long term. 

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I think Roy made a good point about ‘improvement’ and ‘mid twenties’. Do I see Stones improving? Nope. In his comfort zone making the same old sloppy mistakes. Do I see Webster improving? Yes.

Id say little to choose currently between them - excepting Stones having the experience -  but Webster would have it for me on desire, concentration and potential to improve. 

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8 hours ago, JBFC II said:

John Stones, according to who scored has an average rating of 6.9 over 181 games in the premier league, World Cup, champions league, Europa league, nations league. 

Adam Webster, over his 5 premier league games has an average rating of 6.87.

So Stones has been consistently better, at a high level, for longer

Adam Webster can't be that bad if he's only 0.03 on average rating behind John Stones after only 5 PL games....after 176 more PL games, Stones should be miles in front if he's really that good.

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7 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You highlight a flaw in Stones by your own posts

How Long has Stones been hyped you pointed out ? ‘Circa 5 years’

How much has he improved in that time ?

5 years

(I’d say he initially improved and has since digressed , still , regularly making errors)

Webster has the ability and capacity to improve , is on the up atm , and if he does will certainly be a better player than Stones IMHO , if he isn’t already

As for your passing stats - is that how you judge who is the ‘better passer’ ?

You don’t consider or factor ? in things like

options , dependent on quality / movement of teammates , ....passing distances , ......passing ‘risks’ taken ? Etc 

Put Webster in the Man City side and Stones In Brighton’s and you may review your opinion

Fair enough, if Webster makes a 47 million pound move in the next year to either Man City or Liverpool  then I’ll agree with you. 

Currently though I think John Stones is a much better defender, as the stats, his reputation and past success, the amount of games he’s played at a top level, and trophies he has won. 

Ill return the question, what have you seen from Webster’s first 5 premier league games to make you think he is a better player than Stones?

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25 minutes ago, BanburyRed said:

Adam Webster can't be that bad if he's only 0.03 on average rating behind John Stones after only 5 PL games....after 176 more PL games, Stones should be miles in front if he's really that good.

Not really, anyone can have a good first 5 games. 

Whoscored are seriously harsh on player ratings (massengo is currently on a 6.4 iirc) and yet Stones is consistently getting decent scores

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Morning all, have an easy day with the feet up if you can. Saturdays aren't the same without City.

Western Sydney Wanderers v Central Coast Mariners
Hyundai A-League
07:15
BT Sport 1

Melbourne Victory v Melbourne City
Hyundai A-League
09:30
BT Sport 1

Girona v Elche
La Liga 2
11:00
La Liga SmartBank YouTube

Scotland U19 v Andorra U19
UEFA Under-19 Championship Qualifier
12:00
BBC Sport Website

Georgia v Republic of Ireland
UEFA EURO 2020 Qualifier
14:00
Sky Sports Football / Sky Sports Main Event

Man City Women v Birmingham City Women
FA Women's Super League
14:00
The FA Player

Charlton Athletic Women v Aston Villa Women
FA Women's Championship
15:00
The FA Player

Almeria v Lugo
La Liga 2
15:00
La Liga SmartBank YouTube

Sporting Gijon v Alcorcon
La Liga 2
15:00
La Liga SmartBank YouTube

Denmark v Switzerland
UEFA EURO 2020 Qualifier
17:00
Sky Sports Football

Faroe Islands v Romania
UEFA EURO 2020 Qualifier
17:00
Sky Sports Red Button

Bosnia-Herzegovina v Finland
UEFA EURO 2020 Qualifier
17:00
Sky Sports Red Button

Extremadura v Ponferradina
La Liga 2
17:00
La Liga SmartBank YouTube

Malaga v Cadiz
La Liga 2
17:00
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Partick Thistle v Connah's Quay Nomads
Tunnock's Caramel Wafer Cup 4th Round
17:15
S4C

Malta v Sweden
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19:45
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Norway v Spain
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19:45
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Italy v Greece
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19:45
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Liechtenstein v Armenia
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35 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Fair enough, if Webster makes a 47 million pound move in the next year to either Man City or Liverpool  then I’ll agree with you. 

Currently though I think John Stones is a much better defender, as the stats, his reputation and past success, the amount of games he’s played at a top level, and trophies he has won. 

Ill return the question, what have you seen from Webster’s first 5 premier league games to make you think he is a better player than Stones?

I expect others are bored with this now

But I’ve  watched him in four of his PL games (Full game)

and what relevance is a  ‘47 million pound move in the next year to either Man City or Liverpoo’ - is that another way you judge a player

34 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Not really, anyone can have a good first 5 games. 

Whoscored are seriously harsh on player ratings (massengo is currently on a 6.4 iirc) and yet Stones is consistently getting decent scores

You use stats as evidence but then Dismissistats that don’t suit you ....hmmmmm

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3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I expect others are bored with this now

But I’ve  watched him in four of his PL games (Full game)

and what relevance is a  ‘47 million pound move in the next year to either Man City or Liverpoo’ - is that another way you judge a player

You use stats as evidence but then Dismissistats that don’t suit you ....hmmmmm

Judging a player by the fact they are being bought by at the time the best team in the country is a good way to judge them I would say. For instance, if Man City had bought Webster in the summer would you not think that would show he was a better player than Brighton buying him?

When have I dismissed stats? I’ve just said that stats over 180 games normally speak more truth than stats over 5 games, I don’t see how you can disagree with that?

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12 hours ago, rogerf said:

You are so right, and they could pass the ball to their own team mates, which is something England teams find very difficult to achieve.

They can if it's backwards or sideways.

Edited by EstoniaTallinnRed

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3 hours ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

Arguing that Webster is better than Stones or Gomez is superb banter, fair play. 🤣

You always get people saying City players (or ex- City) are better than established Prem players (some title winners). I remember people saying Joe Bryan should be in England squad etc - then he was dreadful in the Prem. Seen a thread about Brownhill now 😂. I mean there are certain City fans who don’t even rate him in this league let alone play for England...

The only reasonable shout was Tammy - he was class at 18 and has only got better. 

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Sweden won vs Malta 4-0 and are second in the group, Spain nr1. Think Eliasson should have a chance to play for Sweden. Our swedish team have not lots of creative  and Eliasson would bring that in our team. We are a small country and in history we have Always had a good defence and not so mutch forward. Famara and Eliasson will hopefully have success in City, If that happens think Niclas will play in our national team.

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