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Brownhill for England...maybe


asfred

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Firstly I didn’t watch game last night....but when I’ve seen Rice, he hides behind his man, so as to not be available for a pass.

Henderson ain’t everyone’s cup of tea, but in general, for England, when he doesn’t play England don’t get the ball back quickly.

For Liverpool he had a quiet spell in the team when he played alongside Emre Can and Wijnaldum, as it lack creativity.  It was ok with Coutinho but they became lopsided.  It’s why Klopp went out and got Oxlade, as a high energy CM who could break lines, and  also because Can was leaving on a free that summer.  It evolved into the 433 we see now, and Henderson has played a key role in that set up.

As I said he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but the kind of player you realise what he does when he’s not playing.  Bit like Korey in that respect.  Does all the bits and pieces other players don’t.  And in fairness he’s adapted his game massively from the attacking midfielder who we saw at Sunderland.

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23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Firstly I didn’t watch game last night....but when I’ve seen Rice, he hides behind his man, so as to not be available for a pass.

Henderson ain’t everyone’s cup of tea, but in general, for England, when he doesn’t play England don’t get the ball back quickly.

For Liverpool he had a quiet spell in the team when he played alongside Emre Can and Wijnaldum, as it lack creativity.  It was ok with Coutinho but they became lopsided.  It’s why Klopp went out and got Oxlade, as a high energy CM who could break lines, and  also because Can was leaving on a free that summer.  It evolved into the 433 we see now, and Henderson has played a key role in that set up.

As I said he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but the kind of player you realise what he does when he’s not playing.  Bit like Korey in that respect.  Does all the bits and pieces other players don’t.  And in fairness he’s adapted his game massively from the attacking midfielder who we saw at Sunderland.

I don’t mind / understand Henderson Dave But first half particularly he was awful last night 

Mind you Rice made Henderson’s performance look like Pirlo

He looked a L1 Centre half playing as a holding midfield player constantly passed around , without a challenge , interception or tackle in sight (Chasing shadows) and both him and Henderson were absolute statues in the first half never offering HM and MK options to play into  (Think two horribly off Marlon Packs at his very worst). - it was horrific , almost certainly the worst performance under Southgate and a complete car crash 

 

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8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I don’t mind / understand Henderson Dave But first half particularly he was awful last night 

Mind you Rice made Henderson’s performance look like Pirlo

He looked a L1 Centre half playing as a holding midfield player constantly passed around , without a challenge , interception or tackle in sight (Chasing shadows) and both him and Henderson were absolute statues in the first half never offering HM and MK options to play into  (Think two horribly off Marlon Packs at his very worst). - it was horrific , almost certainly the worst performance under Southgate and a complete car crash 

 

Ta, as I said I didn’t watch it.  Rice looks way short of being an international at this stage of his career....in such an important position at this level.

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16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta, as I said I didn’t watch it.  Rice looks way short of being an international at this stage of his career....in such an important position at this level.

You made a good choice , it was one of those games where you almost can’t believe what you were watching 

Arrogant , mind boggling tactically and poor quality technically,  and worst of all a complete lack of desire - their attitude stunk

Two players showed anywhere Int  level in last nights ‘performance’.  HK & RS And Pickford should escape any real blame 

 When I tell you he resorted to throwing MK and HM up top and launching it I don’t need to say much more !

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1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You made a good choice , it was one of those games where you almost can’t believe what you were watching 

Arrogant , mind boggling tactically and poor quality technically,  and worst of all a complete lack of desire - their attitude stunk

Two players showed anywhere Int  level in last nights ‘performance’.  HK & RS And Pickford should escape any real blame 

 When I tell you he resorted to throwing MK and HM up top and launching it I don’t need to say much more !

Blige! ?

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I guess Henderson can just point out he is a champions league winning captain and playing for the best team in Europe ATM. He divides opinion not really sure why maybe its because he is a level below the likes of Lampard Gerrard and Scholes but still a very good player.

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Henderson needs at least a couple of creative midfielders beside him, either in a 3 or even playing at the base of a diamond. Allow him to play that holding role and you see the best of him.

After yesterday’s game, you have to question at least 3 of the 4 defensive choices (Rose, Keane, Trippier), plus Rice. Mount watched the game go past him. However if he can translate his Chelsea form into England performances, he has a future.

As for the tactics and set up, go to a 4-3-3. Alexander-Arnold & Chilwell as full backs can both defend and get forward really well, which gives width and good crossing ability. Have Henderson in front of the centre backs, (Maguire and one other - Webster?) then add some creativity, say with Maddison and Oxlade-Chamberlain, or a fully recovered Dele Alli. Finally a front 3 of Kane, Sterling and Sancho.

Even then, I still worry that Southgate doesn’t know how to change tactics if things aren’t working. Think of the defeats against Croatia, the Netherlands and last night, and you see someone who appears clueless.

 

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47 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Stones, Rashford, Winks, Lingard, Alli and Walker have been dropped due to poor form so I don’t know what you mean here. 

McGuire, Rose, Henderson. There are English players in better form. He could pick Dunk, Webster or others who are playing well for their clubs

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2 hours ago, WarksRobin said:

McGuire, Rose, Henderson. There are English players in better form. He could pick Dunk, Webster or others who are playing well for their clubs

Southgate has said he can’t just literally only pick people on form as his team will change every game. He’s dropped some but his squad has to look 75% the same for continuity. 

Personally I think Henderson has done okay this season and Maguire is United’s best player. 

I definitely agree with his philosophy of not making massive changes every game. He’s dropped a fair few and then picked Maddison, Mount and Abraham into the squad who are in form 

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6 hours ago, Super said:

I guess Henderson can just point out he is a champions league winning captain and playing for the best team in Europe ATM. He divides opinion not really sure why maybe its because he is a level below the likes of Lampard Gerrard and Scholes but still a very good player.

It's an interesting comparison you make when you say Lampard and Gerrard. I feel Henderson is maybe even better than those if asked to do a defensive midfield job. 

Gerrard was very sloppy in defensive midfield late in his career, but also most of his england career he played far too deep. As did Lampard. The good old 442. Lampard was no holding midfielder either. Both very much more comfortable in attacking areas.

Gerrard and Lampard did not exactly have the same roles for their clubs but they did have a lot of licence to get in the box. They had 2 sitters protecting them. For England they were the sitters and no one could work out why they couldn't play the same way.

Henderson does not have their ability in and around the box. But he is an excellent team player, protecting the defence and covering so much of the pitch, but not being massively creative, though he does have a bit of quality there too.

I wonder if we'd simply had Winks alongside him, that would have solved the problem. Someone who is good in tight spaces.

I personally would not have changed from our 433 we have been playing that keeps getting us wins. I like Southgate as a person, but have always struggled to see what makes him special as a head coach. He has lost some tactical battles so far and even against Colombia where we got lucky.

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13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

It's an interesting comparison you make when you say Lampard and Gerrard. I feel Henderson is maybe even better than those if asked to do a defensive midfield job. 

Gerrard was very sloppy in defensive midfield late in his career, but also most of his england career he played far too deep. As did Lampard. The good old 442. Lampard was no holding midfielder either. Both very much more comfortable in attacking areas.

Gerrard and Lampard did not exactly have the same roles for their clubs but they did have a lot of licence to get in the box. They had 2 sitters protecting them. For England they were the sitters and no one could work out why they couldn't play the same way.

Henderson does not have their ability in and around the box. But he is an excellent team player, protecting the defence and covering so much of the pitch, but not being massively creative, though he does have a bit of quality there too.

I wonder if we'd simply had Winks alongside him, that would have solved the problem. Someone who is good in tight spaces.

I personally would not have changed from our 433 we have been playing that keeps getting us wins. I like Southgate as a person, but have always struggled to see what makes him special as a head coach. He has lost some tactical battles so far and even against Colombia where we got lucky.

Fair points JD.

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10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

It's an interesting comparison you make when you say Lampard and Gerrard. I feel Henderson is maybe even better than those if asked to do a defensive midfield job.

yes, neither a DM.


Gerrard was very sloppy in defensive midfield late in his career, but also most of his england career he played far too deep. As did Lampard. The good old 442. Lampard was no holding midfielder either. Both very much more comfortable in attacking areas.

let down in some extent by not having a Xabi Alonso to sit and be a wonderful passer.  Gerrard had Torres and Lampard had Drogba....in their pomp two of the worlds best strikers.

Gerrard and Lampard did not exactly have the same roles for their clubs but they did have a lot of licence to get in the box. They had 2 sitters protecting them. For England they were the sitters and no one could work out why they couldn't play the same way.

but their record as a pairing was better than when you paired them with someone other than each other.  There was a run of a few games when Barry came in on LCM and Lampard played RCM, which had a nice balance to it. And under McLaren, Gerrard played RW (Beckham dumped by Shteve) with Crouch and Defoe up top, that also was v.effective.

Henderson does not have their ability in and around the box. But he is an excellent team player, protecting the defence and covering so much of the pitch, but not being massively creative, though he does have a bit of quality there too.

agree, totally.

I wonder if we'd simply had Winks alongside him, that would have solved the problem. Someone who is good in tight spaces.

not seen enough of Winks, but was it Spain where he played really well?

I personally would not have changed from our 433 we have been playing that keeps getting us wins. I like Southgate as a person, but have always struggled to see what makes him special as a head coach. He has lost some tactical battles so far and even against Colombia where we got lucky.

⬆️⬆️⬆️

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