Davefevs Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 54 minutes ago, Shtanley said: Semenyo and Eliasson either side of Diedhiou would be nice. 433 34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: You'd drop Weimann? I don’t see the correlation between Eliasson and Diedhiou, that whenever someone suggests Eliasson must start it seems to always go hand in hand that Diedhiou must too. Yet Eliasson has only assisted one Diedhiou goal. Even in a 25 minute cameo, we saw how shorter players, but with smarter movement can get on the end of Eliasson crosses. Diedhiou’s movement on crosses is reactive rather than proactive. Just because he’s tall / taller died to mean he’s the right target. Look at the goals Owen scored from Beckham crosses....because he anticipated. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt from watching Eliasson is that you can gamble on your runs...because he does deliver the ball into great areas (consistently for a wideman - as plenty fail to miss the first man). Fully expect us to go back 4 on Wednesday (Pereira for Hunt who picked up a knock), so chance to play Eliasson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Yes, I am thinking O'Dowda right and tucking inside a bit, Eliasson left. And people might see this as a strange move but I would go with Pereira at left back due to his pace on Leko. I don't trust Rowe up against Leko. You surprise me Jon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: You surprise me Jon! Leko is very very quick to be fair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I don’t see the correlation between Eliasson and Diedhiou, that whenever someone suggests Eliasson must start it seems to always go hand in hand that Diedhiou must too. Yet Eliasson has only assisted one Diedhiou goal. Even in a 25 minute cameo, we saw how shorter players, but with smarter movement can get on the end of Eliasson crosses. Diedhiou’s movement on crosses is reactive rather than proactive. Just because he’s tall / taller died to mean he’s the right target. Look at the goals Owen scored from Beckham crosses....because he anticipated. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt from watching Eliasson is that you can gamble on your runs...because he does deliver the ball into great areas (consistently for a wideman - as plenty fail to miss the first man). Fully expect us to go back 4 on Wednesday (Pereira for Hunt who picked up a knock), so chance to play Eliasson. From memory, Eliasson assisted Weimann on opening day v Leeds late on. Dunno who he got his third assist against ie which player, but was vs Middlesbrough IIRC- wasn't Diedhiou though! Agree though, movement over height/physical build- low whipped in crosses as well can suit this, plus even if not resulting in a goal can cause havoc- drive it in, can deflect into own goal, out for a corner, maybe bounce up and win a penalty- done right and with sharp movement they can really trouble defences- especially ones which are fairly deep and centrally focused like Luton's was Saturday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidercity1987 Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 Is Weimann the problem for Eliasson? An automatic selection and 1 in 3 record so far this season but our best and most effective team might be a 4-3-3 including Eliasson and pace on the wings but excluding Weimann. 3-5-2 has no place for Eliasson, LJ hates 4-4-2 due to no control and won’t play Weimann alone up front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said: Is Weimann the problem for Eliasson? An automatic selection and 1 in 3 record so far this season but our best and most effective team might be a 4-3-3 including Eliasson and pace on the wings but excluding Weimann. 3-5-2 has no place for Eliasson, LJ hates 4-4-2 due to no control and won’t play Weimann alone up front If think 442 is fine if we have 2 strikers who can drop back or go wide. Defend from the front. Weimann and Rodri could maybe make it a kind of 4-6-0 at times or 4-5-1 like Pato and Reid once did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, JonDolman said: If think 442 is fine if we have 2 strikers who can drop back or go wide. Defend from the front. Weimann and Rodri could maybe make it a kind of 4-6-0 at times or 4-5-1 like Pato and Reid once did. Significant differences between that and our current shape though- sometimes you need exactly the right sort of players to pull it off. Wright at RB- can tuck inside as and when. Magnússon at LB- the same. Brownhill on the right- inside, into midfield. Bryan on the left- can push up into a front 3 ie wide left, or drop back to LB to help out. Reid- a striker but learnt his trade as a CM- yet more flexibility. Paterson- a 10 by trade, albeit can pull wider to the left as well and though a weaker position, CM. I see some similarities especially if Weimann and Rodri hit it off, overall however unconvinced we can replicate it in the current setup- hope I'm wrong- when key players who are injured return, then it could be worth exploring again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: From memory, Eliasson assisted Weimann on opening day v Leeds late on. Dunno who he got his third assist against ie which player, but was vs Middlesbrough IIRC- wasn't Diedhiou though! Agree though, movement over height/physical build- low whipped in crosses as well can suit this, plus even if not resulting in a goal can cause havoc- drive it in, can deflect into own goal, out for a corner, maybe bounce up and win a penalty- done right and with sharp movement they can really trouble defences- especially ones which are fairly deep and centrally focused like Luton's was Saturday! Palmer....a header. Again proving you don’t need a big man to get on the end of an Eliasson cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppyDAZE Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 48 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said: Is Weimann the problem for Eliasson? An automatic selection and 1 in 3 record so far this season but our best and most effective team might be a 4-3-3 including Eliasson and pace on the wings but excluding Weimann. 3-5-2 has no place for Eliasson, LJ hates 4-4-2 due to no control and won’t play Weimann alone up front But how many times have we had to change to 442 already DURING games? Leave NE on the bench for sure, but don't do post match interview after post match interview saying "we lacked that bit of quality" up top. We are wasting a very good player, and i wouldn't blame the guy one bit if he gets fed up and wants to go somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 20, 2019 Report Share Posted October 20, 2019 11 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said: But how many times have we had to change to 442 already DURING games? Leave NE on the bench for sure, but don't do post match interview after post match interview saying "we lacked that bit of quality" up top. We are wasting a very good player, and i wouldn't blame the guy one bit if he gets fed up and wants to go somewhere else. Interestingly the 3 games we started with a back 4 this season - all at home; Leeds - 4231 - let’s just ignore that one, our worst performance of the season until yesterday. Boro - 442 - we changed to a 5 Reading - 442 - we changed to a 5 Which means LJ has flip-flopped every game pretty much (QPR and Derby away were the only 2 games he kept the same defensive shape all game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 20/10/2019 at 00:56, BCFC OF SWEDEN said: Ok i’m from Sweden but i must say that Lee doesnt have a clue how to use Niclas Eliasson! He should be one of the first that Lee puts in the team. Even if we play 3-5-2 he should be in the team! Scandinavian Branch is coming over for the Wigan game, hope to se you all! COYR I Totally agree with you. His overall game has come on leaps and bounds and he has looked brilliant most times he's played this season. I'd find a place for him in the team regardless of formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dullmoan Tone Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 I just wish he would run at players more, we have seen how effective he can be, but so often he receives the ball and passes back unless he is running into space to receive it. It's probably LJ's retain possession mantra that sucks the creativity, risk and excitement from a player that I think could deliver on all 3 regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 20/10/2019 at 03:23, The Journalist said: A classic case of needing to concentrate on what a player can do rather than what he can’t. The amount of luxury players we’ve persisted with carrying over the years (Tomlin, Paterson and Palmer instantly spring to mind and that’s just recently) and we’ve got a guy here who literally creates 2/3 proper goalscoring chances EVERY time he plays and he can’t get in the team. The trouble with Eliasson is that when he plays we tend to create a greater number of poorer quality chances. I disagree with the bit in bold. His primary skill, and the main way in which he is deployed, is as a winger instructed to cross the ball in quickly. This is great to watch as he plays fast, has tricky feet and whips those balls into "the mixer". These events stick in the minds of fans - especially when contrasted to an hour of us creating fewer (but better chances) without him - but the trouble is they don't actually increase the likelihood of us scoring. They give the appearance of threatening the goal when in reality each cross is little more than speculative. This then creates the anecdotal argument that we are "more threatening with Eliasson on"; an argument that doesn't really stack up when the stats are analysed. This isn't to say that he's a bad player - it's more to say that he isn't the silver bullet some think he is. If he plays we will score, but it's unlikely that we'll score more goals than if he doesn't play. In short I think that LJ is using him just about right as an option from the bench. In fact I'd say that perhaps Eliasson should actually be used in even greater peaks and troughs - getting starts and 70 or 90 minutes against certain teams but then being left out entirely against others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: The trouble with Eliasson is that when he plays we tend to create a greater number of poorer quality chances. I disagree with the bit in bold. His primary skill, and the main way in which he is deployed, is as a winger instructed to cross the ball in quickly. This is great to watch as he plays fast, has tricky feet and whips those balls into "the mixer". These events stick in the minds of fans - especially when contrasted to an hour of us creating fewer (but better chances) without him - but the trouble is they don't actually increase the likelihood of us scoring. They give the appearance of threatening the goal when in reality each cross is little more than speculative. This then creates the anecdotal argument that we are "more threatening with Eliasson on"; an argument that doesn't really stack up when the stats are analysed. This isn't to say that he's a bad player - it's more to say that he isn't the silver bullet some think he is. If he plays we will score, but it's unlikely that we'll score more goals than if he doesn't play. In short I think that LJ is using him just about right as an option from the bench. In fact I'd say that perhaps Eliasson should actually be used in even greater peaks and troughs - getting starts and 70 or 90 minutes against certain teams but then being left out entirely against others. Good thought provoking post. The clamour for “Diedhiou must play when Eliasson does” somewhat backs up your post. Lots of “good” crosses just missing their target, but lots of oohs and aahs. He reacts too late, too often. I do wonder (in fact I’m convinced) that if you had a striker with anticipatory movement up there, more of those oohs and aahs would turn into cheers. Look at Rodri’s contribution to getting on the end of crosses in a small segment of the game. Eliasson’s assists: Forest (h) - Weimann header, good run after corner cleared (from left) QPR (a) - Weimann header, brilliant movement (from left) West Brom (a) - Kelly glancing volley getting across his man (from right) Ipswich (a) - Pato volley, good peel to back post (from left) Wigan (h) - Taylor header, super run off the back of his man (from right) Reading (h) - Brownhill header, desire to get on a lopping Cross at back post 2 yards out (from left) Leeds (h) - Weimann solo effort from pass (from right) Boro (h) - Palmer header from close-in, not much movement (from left) Reading (h) - Diedhiou header, harsh but not much movement, just perfect cross (from right) Plus one in FA Cup: Bolton (h) - O’Dowda volley, chipped pass onto a good run (central) 5 from the left (!!!), 4 from right, 1 central. Those crosses from the right as you say look great, but bearing in mind how many more he’s hit from that side, I’d say his crossing from left is more productive. Ball will tend to swing away from defender onto onrushing City player. That game at Ipswich last season (3-2 win), showed how well Kelly and Eliasson linked - after he swapped to left side second half (Adelakun started left that night). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Good thought provoking post. The clamour for “Diedhiou must play when Eliasson does” somewhat backs up your post. Lots of “good” crosses just missing their target, but lots of oohs and aahs. He reacts too late, too often. I do wonder (in fact I’m convinced) that if you had a striker with anticipatory movement up there, more of those oohs and aahs would turn into cheers. Look at Rodri’s contribution to getting on the end of crosses in a small segment of the game. Eliasson’s assists: Forest (h) - Weimann header, good run after corner cleared (from left) QPR (a) - Weimann header, brilliant movement (from left) West Brom (a) - Kelly glancing volley getting across his man (from right) Ipswich (a) - Pato volley, good peel to back post (from left) Wigan (h) - Taylor header, super run off the back of his man (from right) Reading (h) - Brownhill header, desire to get on a lopping Cross at back post 2 yards out (from left) Leeds (h) - Weimann solo effort from pass (from right) Boro (h) - Palmer header from close-in, not much movement (from left) Reading (h) - Diedhiou header, harsh but not much movement, just perfect cross (from right) Plus one in FA Cup: Bolton (h) - O’Dowda volley, chipped pass onto a good run (central) 5 from the left (!!!), 4 from right, 1 central. Those crosses from the right as you say look great, but bearing in mind how many more he’s hit from that side, I’d say his crossing from left is more productive. Ball will tend to swing away from defender onto onrushing City player. That game at Ipswich last season (3-2 win), showed how well Kelly and Eliasson linked - after he swapped to left side second half (Adelakun started left that night). Thanks. One other thing to draw from your list here - Eliasson > Diedhiou = goal has happened once. Once. I'm not sure how much they've played with each other over the seasons but this season so far it's 226 minutes which is 62% of the 361 minutes that Eliasson has played in total. On productivity of crosses - Eliasson has hit 50 in total this season, resulting in 3 goals - a 6% conversion rate. This is low but actually compared to the average for crosses as a whole it is very, very high. The average across all crosses is a mere 1.6% (hard to find a reliable stat but this is what a Google search suggested - this article uses stats from the 2011/12 Premier League Season and suggests the average is even lower; 1 in 73, but ranging from 1 in 45 to 1 in 139 across the 20 teams). Does this tell us that Eliasson is unnaturally good at crossing, or is it that he's got decent finishers to aim at? I'm not sure and would need to look at a broader range of stats to decide. However, what I think it does show is that the problem doesn't lie in having strikers who are incapable of finishing Eliasson's crosses; we're actually finishing his (and Hunt's) crosses at a rate 4x higher than the average team would be. Is it telling that Hunt this season has hit 18 fewer crosses than Eliasson yet yielded the same number of assists (plus a cracking goal when he might have crossed, plus a shit ton of defensive work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Journalist Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said: The trouble with Eliasson is that when he plays we tend to create a greater number of poorer quality chances. I disagree with the bit in bold. His primary skill, and the main way in which he is deployed, is as a winger instructed to cross the ball in quickly. This is great to watch as he plays fast, has tricky feet and whips those balls into "the mixer". These events stick in the minds of fans - especially when contrasted to an hour of us creating fewer (but better chances) without him - but the trouble is they don't actually increase the likelihood of us scoring. They give the appearance of threatening the goal when in reality each cross is little more than speculative. This then creates the anecdotal argument that we are "more threatening with Eliasson on"; an argument that doesn't really stack up when the stats are analysed. This isn't to say that he's a bad player - it's more to say that he isn't the silver bullet some think he is. If he plays we will score, but it's unlikely that we'll score more goals than if he doesn't play. In short I think that LJ is using him just about right as an option from the bench. In fact I'd say that perhaps Eliasson should actually be used in even greater peaks and troughs - getting starts and 70 or 90 minutes against certain teams but then being left out entirely against others. You make some good points, as does @Davefevs. I’ve been watching Bristol City for 20 years, though, and we’ve never had a better crosser of a ball in that time. He hits that impossible channel, that has defenders facing their own goal, over and over again and does it with pace on the ball. As a striker I’d have loved to have played with him, because you know where it’s going. Agree re: Diedhiou too, I think Afobe’s movement and anticipation would’ve been made for it. Imagine Tammy up top with that service?! Tap-in central. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: Thanks. One other thing to draw from your list here - Eliasson > Diedhiou = goal has happened once. The funny thing was before the Reading game it was ME that posted that Eliasson had NEVER assisted Diedhiou....so thank me!!! Once. I'm not sure how much they've played with each other over the seasons but this season so far it's 226 minutes which is 62% of the 361 minutes that Eliasson has played in total. I’m not gonna do the research, but it will be a lot / large proportion.. On productivity of crosses - Eliasson has hit 50 in total this season, resulting in 3 goals - a 6% conversion rate. only 2 were crosses...but it doesn’t change your argument. This is low but actually compared to the average for crosses as a whole it is very, very high. The average across all crosses is a mere 1.6% (hard to find a reliable stat but this is what a Google search suggested - this article uses stats from the 2011/12 Premier League Season and suggests the average is even lower; 1 in 73, but ranging from 1 in 45 to 1 in 139 across the 20 teams). Does this tell us that Eliasson is unnaturally good at crossing, or is it that he's got decent finishers to aim at? I'm not sure and would need to look at a broader range of stats to decide. However, what I think it does show is that the problem doesn't lie in having strikers who are incapable of finishing Eliasson's crosses; we're actually finishing his (and Hunt's) crosses at a rate 4x higher than the average team would be. Is it telling that Hunt this season has hit 18 fewer crosses than Eliasson yet yielded the same number of assists (plus a cracking goal when he might have crossed, plus a shit ton of defensive work). call me old fashioned, but I still think the outswinger is easier to attack than an inswinger. There was a debate on this a season or so ago, where the other side of my argument thought differently (and made good points too). Wouldn’t mind seeing Eliasson on the left though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, Davefevs said: I guess my ultimate thoughts are that there is little point in the coaching staff spending either time on the training pitch or money in the window on trying to improve our efficiency of scoring from Eliasson's crossing. We're already operating at the edge of feasibility in that regard - and should we regress to the average can expect to see fewer converted crosses in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC OF SWEDEN Posted October 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 Wonderful win tonight, but i still doesnt understand the treatment of Niclas Eliasson! Was happy to hear the peoples reaktion at Ashton Gate when Niclas was subsitituted. Ps we are going up, se you on sunday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, BCFC OF SWEDEN said: Wonderful win tonight, but i still doesnt understand the treatment of Niclas Eliasson! Was happy to hear the peoples reaktion at Ashton Gate when Niclas was subsitituted. Ps we are going up, se you on sunday! LJ post-match explains his thinking. "I knew I was going to get the howls when I made the sub (Diedhiou for Niclas Eliasson) because I understood that it wouldn't have looked like it made sense. I wanted to match them with a diamond and get width from our full-backs. I'm so pleased of the quality and the bravery to keep playing in the second half." Personally I think he was spot on and it worked brilliantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC OF SWEDEN Posted October 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 Only luck, our manager is not that good! Ok 3 points is 3 points but i think we would have got them with Eliasson on the pitch aswell and maybe COD should have been substituted instead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 20/10/2019 at 16:05, JonDolman said: LJ will never drop Weimann. Eliasson simply has to play. I have been saying all season how it's crazy a player that good can't get in. Cant believe he took off Elliason and left odowda on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: LJ post-match explains his thinking. "I knew I was going to get the howls when I made the sub (Diedhiou for Niclas Eliasson) because I understood that it wouldn't have looked like it made sense. I wanted to match them with a diamond and get width from our full-backs. I'm so pleased of the quality and the bravery to keep playing in the second half." Personally I think he was spot on and it worked brilliantly. Should have started with his strongest team three changes to get it right and rectify his mistakes he wont always be so fortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLionLad Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said: Cant believe he took off Elliason and left odowda on? Can you believe we won the game after he went off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said: Should have started with his strongest team three changes to get it right and rectify his mistakes he wont always be so fortunate. Do you honestly expect him to get the perfect starting XI, in the perfect set-up, every game and never need to make a substitution to affect a game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamalagerdrinker Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 8 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said: Cant believe he took off Elliason and left odowda on? I think it was so we could keep our shape and not have O'Dowda and Wienman swapping over like he did with Eliasson and just stick to a structured 4-4-2. I'm a massive Eliasson fan but I 100% think it was the correct move last night we arguably played the best football this season when he came off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 It was to match their shape and push the fullbacks forward, and it worked. Happy days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 7 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Do you honestly expect him to get the perfect starting XI, in the perfect set-up, every game and never need to make a substitution to affect a game? That first half it was pretty obvious he hadn't. Hence the subs at 52'. Usually Johnson waits until about 65'. But yeah, always start your strongest XI. Anything else and you're giving the impetus to the opposition and you'll be chasing the game rather than dictating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said: That first half it was pretty obvious he hadn't. Hence the subs at 52'. Usually Johnson waits until about 65'. But yeah, always start your strongest XI. Anything else and you're giving the impetus to the opposition and you'll be chasing the game rather than dictating it. Ok. I get your point. I'll add to it by saying "always start what you believe to be your strongest XI for the specific opponent". I'm sure Johnson does this every game. He doesn't always get it right - as last night shows. Last night Eliasson was not part of our strongest XI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 26 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: Ok. I get your point. I'll add to it by saying "always start what you believe to be your strongest XI for the specific opponent". I'm sure Johnson does this every game. He doesn't always get it right - as last night shows. Last night Eliasson was not part of our strongest XI. But to be fair, with the first half shape, he was about our only threat, on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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