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Stewards (Vs Charlton Athletic)


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Technically, they probably had the right to eject- and use proportionate force in doing so.

However I do doubt that the right level of force was on here.  That many stewards and security for a start??

Yet,  had said fans got onto the pitch I don't think it'd have been a good look for the club given the added scrutiny post Luton! Any footage on YouTube or similar?

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Interesting thread on stewarding in general.

Plus another-  bit dated but certainly relevant to Wednesday, 6-7 months ago.

FA, Police and SAG/authorities do NOT differentiate tbh- like I said before we were under added scrutiny in general Wednesday night IMO, a point yet to be acknowledged by @AshtonPark or @BTRFTG .

When a club are under added scrutiny, they tighten things up- certainly for the next immediate home game.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 @italian dave

@AshtonPark@BTRFTG would be complaining if stewards got in the way to an extent that evade or try to evade search, you don't get in!

As I've just finished working for OSCT I'd continue my correspondence with City's faux SLO and highlight the utter pointlessness of the strategy currently deployed and the numerous loopholes one might drive a Semtex laden truck through were one so minded.

Whilst the club may impose terms for admission they must do so under the Equality Act (2010) - wonder whether they audit that?

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32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Like I said before we were under added scrutiny in general Wednesday night IMO, a point yet to be acknowledged by @AshtonPark or @BTRFTG .

For what and by whom? What form the scrutineer's output? Who appointed them? Where was this notified?

Or rather something else you've invented?

 

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@Mr Popodopolous

The stewards are doing as they are instructed, they have been told to shout to get people to get their jackets open etc. The point I’m trying to make is, the open your jacket policy at only one set of turnstiles is nothing but ridiculous really.

Surely with anything in life, you either have to do things properly or not at all? I would say the current policy isn’t effective and if anything is probably counter productive.

If you wanted to take items into Ashton Gate you were not meant to, it wouldn’t be difficult. You could use any of the turnstiles where you are not checked, or as I have said before you could extremely easily take whatever you wanted past stewards doing the open your jacket searches.

I wouldn’t be keen on standing out in the rain in the cold telling people to open their jackets etc, it’s not a surprise at times they don’t look happy/have the best attitude I doubt I would either. On the flip side though, there are clearly stewards in all grounds not just ours that love having that extra bit of power, you need to remember that they have the same powers as when they take off their high viz jackets.

I'm not really sure what added scrutiny has to do with the club's policy of pointless searches at only one section of the gorund?

Edited by AshtonPark
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2 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

f you wanted to take items into Ashton Gate you were not meant to, it wouldn’t be difficult.

You mean to say one could presently smuggle a flare into AG? What are the chances that would get through our security protection.......?

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48 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As I've just finished working for OSCT I'd continue my correspondence with City's faux SLO and highlight the utter pointlessness of the strategy currently deployed and the numerous loopholes one might drive a Semtex laden truck through were one so minded.

Whilst the club may impose terms for admission they must do so under the Equality Act (2010) - wonder whether they audit that?

Interested to know where the Equality Act (2010) kicks in for some of the regulations- and they all aren't terms of admissions necessarily, they are Government football specific laws. Which supersedes?

You will then be familiar with Stade de France 2015- there was an attempted suicide bomber at a match v Germany IIRC, and this has been the system ever since- at AG, certainly. Other grounds, not so sure on.

I've provided 8 examples of the ways in which regulations are not necessarily applied to the letter. Unsure how many, if any of them contradict the Equality Act (2010). 

Good example- someone has a season ticket, loans it to a mate as they cannot make it. Transfer of ticket? Yet, club don't do much about it! Or on here, people buy tickets, cannot make it and say "ticket wanted for X". Breach as tickets are non transferable!

By rights, everyone who argues or refuses to comply with a steward or police officer should be ejected- well if you apply it literally. Of course and rightly, this is not the case- that's what it states in that list of legislation.

Would assume the club would be correctly applying, plus have audited the Equality Act (2010)- obliged by law surely?

44 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

For what and by whom? What form the scrutineer's output? Who appointed them? Where was this notified?

Or rather something else you've invented?

 

Haven't invented it- if what I heard was true though and granted it may not be true what I heard, but if it was then we were. Remember the police were meeting with City over it so that alone is an indicator to me, was in the media.

Internal stuff too- might EFL or FA officials have been at AG to monitor? Presumably similar at Salford too as there was racism or chanting reported at their game with Northampton- maybe I'm over egging this aspect and getting it wrong.

Make of this story what you will?

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11726/11842029/police-to-meet-bristol-city-over-alleged-supporter-racism-versus-luton

I've asked Julie H for some input, clarity on this at least once but there has been nothing to date!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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19 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

@Mr Popodopolous

The stewards are doing as they are instructed, they have been told to shout to get people to get their jackets open etc. The point I’m trying to make is, the open your jacket policy at only one set of turnstiles is nothing but ridiculous really.

Surely with anything in life, you either have to do things properly or not at all? I would say the current policy isn’t effective and if anything is probably counter productive.

If you wanted to take items into Ashton Gate you were not meant to, it wouldn’t be difficult. You could use any of the turnstiles where you are not checked, or as I have said before you could extremely easily take whatever you wanted past stewards doing the open your jacket searches.

I wouldn’t be keen on standing out in the rain in the cold telling people to open their jackets etc, it’s not a surprise at times they don’t look happy/have the best attitude I doubt I would either. On the flip side though, there are clearly stewards in all grounds not just ours that love having that extra bit of power, you need to remember that they have the same powers as when they take off their high viz jackets.

I'm not really sure what added scrutiny has to do with the club's policy of pointless searches at only one section of the gorund?

Agreed with that- all or nothing is the way because anyone with a bit of nous can just go in via the others. Nonetheless, the ones that do enforce are arguably doing it right.

Agreed.

Depends how rigorous the searches of the jacket checks are- I don't usually go in that way so I don't really know. :thumbsup: What would be more effective IMO is a full pat down and bag check for all, of course under 16's probably you wouldn't be able to do so except for the bag checks- but then, I wonder how long that other policy would take.

Agreed.

Yes.

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24 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

@Mr Popodopolous

The stewards are doing as they are instructed, they have been told to shout to get people to get their jackets open etc. The point I’m trying to make is, the open your jacket policy at only one set of turnstiles is nothing but ridiculous really.

Surely with anything in life, you either have to do things properly or not at all? I would say the current policy isn’t effective and if anything is probably counter productive.

If you wanted to take items into Ashton Gate you were not meant to, it wouldn’t be difficult. You could use any of the turnstiles where you are not checked, or as I have said before you could extremely easily take whatever you wanted past stewards doing the open your jacket searches.

I wouldn’t be keen on standing out in the rain in the cold telling people to open their jackets etc, it’s not a surprise at times they don’t look happy/have the best attitude I doubt I would either. On the flip side though, there are clearly stewards in all grounds not just ours that love having that extra bit of power, you need to remember that they have the same powers as when they take off their high viz jackets.

I'm not really sure what added scrutiny has to do with the club's policy of pointless searches at only one section of the gorund?

The "Opening Jacket" is a pointless and very ineffective exercise at Ashton Gate. It also is not carried out on every person entering the stadium. In other words, a haphazard and very unprofessional search by stewards.

For that reason, I just walk through and refuse to especially on cold, wet days. I'm 76 years so what will I be trying to bring in? A bottle of water!

Yet when I go to Rugby internationals at Cardiff, the search is done on everybody. It is professionally carried out and I do not have a problem. In fact, because such games are higher profile, I am pleased there are such checks.

So if it was done the same at Ashton Gate, I would not object.

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I think you have to accept that it’s the modern world.

My friend and I wander through the security lines with anywhere between 4 and 7 young kids in tow. Some stewards are really friendly and have a chat, some aren’t, despite us looking like the least troublesome day trippers you’ll see, and just a little over the top, barking orders at you, seemingly oblivious to the fact you’re also trying to keep an eye on wandering 5 year olds.

BUT, ultimately they’re just trying to ensure everyone’s safety, so a small but sometimes frustrating price to pay.

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23 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

 

As for the open your coats command we get, I have absolutely no idea what it is they aren't looking for. Is it alcohol or weapons?

Both, and 'fireworks' was the reply I got when I asked them. I also asked if they had actually ever found anything and was told ' we found a bottle of wine once'!

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19 minutes ago, RedM said:

Both, and 'fireworks' was the reply I got when I asked them. I also asked if they had actually ever found anything and was told ' we found a bottle of wine once'!

On 24/10/2019 at 11:15, Bristol Rob said:

After that attack in Manchester at a pop concert, it was of no surprise that they took a more complete approach to searching people, but the process was done quickly and professionally.

As for the open your coats command we get, I have absolutely no idea what it is they aren't looking for. Is it alcohol or weapons?

My view.

They are looking for the following items- tbh there are probably more but a few of these:

  1. Alcohol- no, bringing in alcohol is not permitted.
  2. Fireworks- think that's a catch-all term for Pyro they must have used- flares, smoke bombs, just the coloured smoke- whatever you want to call it, all different but all fall under the category/categories.
  3. Glass bottles.
  4. Cans.

If they were really anal, could people smuggle in alcohol in plastic coke bottles or similar? I think they could! It'd be easy wouldn't it- if they were really anal, then they might check for this!

An article from 2010 gives the following list for Wembley! Dunno how many of these are now allowed.

Quote

If there's one thing that football grounds are good at it's banning things. Take Wembley, for example. Along with "any article that might be used as a weapon", spectators are not allowed to take into the ground: unlicensed musical instruments, including trumpets, drums and "other devices capable of causing a disturbance or nuisance"; Flag poles greater than 1m in length; Flares; Bottles, glass vessels, cans and flasks; Frisbees and "similar items"; Dangerous or hazardous items; Illegal substances; Explosives or ammunition; fireworks; Knives, blades or other weapons; Firearms; Scooters, skateboards or other skates; Laser devices; Smoke canisters; Signs or items with corporate or inappropriate branding; Unauthorised fliers; Spray paint or large industrial style marker pens; Prams and push chairs; Transmitting devices; Professional cameras and recording devices; Large suitcases, lap tops, and back packs; Illegal merchandise items; Water bottles; Illegal charity collection utensils; Motor bike helmets; Umbrellas; Darts; Hampers and Cold Boxes; Air horns; Alcohol; and animals (except service dogs and guide dogs).

 

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30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If they were really anal, could people smuggle in alcohol in plastic coke bottles or similar? I think they could! It'd be easy wouldn't it- if they were really anal, then they might check for this!

Flasks are allowed, and aren't checked. So, it would be incredibly simple to smuggle in alcohol if somebody so desired. 

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18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh I know they are standard across the country @italian dave just pointing out that there is scope to be more anal and annoying- pointlessly so on their part but the scope exists!

Open coat or a pat down? Guessing the latter would be more effective if anything- or a wand search! If the open coat one done well, it may be of use in detecting things. They're looking for all kinds of things I suspect.

Is an interesting one. Believe that in general our stewards in the away end are not so bad (I don't include last night's OTT reaction!)- I believe that there is generally more tolerance to away fans at a lot of grounds these days in some respects, allowed to persistently stand, allowed to do things that home fans regularly are not owing to crowd management and pragmatism, ie to enforce the same regs in the same way would risk disorder- Brentford ones sound exemplary however! You read some horror stories from away fans at clubs about stewarding on Twitter...seldom at AG!

You see, that shows pragmatism- albeit pragmatism that is generally on display across the country. I suspect that if hypothetically, that if we had our stewards all replaced with bouncers from Security firms tomorrow, we'd see quite a different approach and it would not be one to the liking of the fans- would actually probably cause serious crowd disorder sooner rather than later!

Agreed.

Yes indeed- no problem with either of those songs at all personally. If looked at to the letter though and that's the point I'm trying to make. Ending chants in "you c***s" as one section of the ground is known to do definitely fits this though! ;)

It's a condition of entry- problem is when people try to evade things, and this is human nature, you get a reaction- which is what you describe. People will always push the boundaries and over time, this might rightly or wrongly piss people off. However at the same time, I don't disagree that this can be improved and yes, should be.

Back to the single point about coat open policy- I bet @AshtonPark and @BTRFTG would be complaining if stewards got in the way to an extent that evade or try to evade search, you don't get in! As technically the regs allow for.

Truth is I guess they are all there to cover clubs when someone is taking the proverbial, and that's always the person who'll demand to know where it says that they can't xxxxx

The c word chants I'd agree with you - they do seem to cross the line. Without wishing to over-analyse football chants, always dangerous!, it's partly the word itself I guess, but partly also because it's directed at people: in the HNM chant **** used as an adjective just seems less offensive that using c*** as a noun while pointing at someone else.

Some years ago at Watford one of the people I went with took a photo inside the ground and was threatened with ejection for breaking not one but two rules - standing on the yellow hatched area and using recording equipment.

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27 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Truth is I guess they are all there to cover clubs when someone is taking the proverbial, and that's always the person who'll demand to know where it says that they can't xxxxx

The c word chants I'd agree with you - they do seem to cross the line. Without wishing to over-analyse football chants, always dangerous!, it's partly the word itself I guess, but partly also because it's directed at people: in the HNM chant **** used as an adjective just seems less offensive that using c*** as a noun while pointing at someone else.

Some years ago at Watford one of the people I went with took a photo inside the ground and was threatened with ejection for breaking not one but two rules - standing on the yellow hatched area and using recording equipment.

I'll have to look again and see if they were laws as part of the various Football specific legislation from down the years, or simply club regulations- the 2 are quite different and will feed into each other of course. However, I take your general point.

Yes, I do wonder on that one- yet nothing is done. Don't have a problem with the HNM or Palmer chants, don't have any particularly strong views on the c*** one if I'm honest. Not that I applaud it, more that I'm not especially bothered either.

Indeed, that is technically within the parameters, the cameras/recording equipment- wasn't aware of the first bit though, yellow hatched area?

The overall point I guess I was trying to drive at is that for the criticism they get, things could certainly be worse or more pedantic! Something, which I suspect would be possible if tomorrow the club got rid of the current stewarding team and hired a security firm/bouncers. Which would actually likely cause crowd problems sooner rather than later.

Charlton use or have been known to use Prison wardens for example- have quite a bad rep! Dunno if this is true but heard it somewhere, the Prison wardens bit.

EDIT: Actually looked again and at 5, maybe 6 of these come under Football (Offences) Act 1991 (as amended).

Think one or two maybe under ground regs, possibly the odd one crosses over or forms the base for the other but yes, by rights- certainly people selling tickets to games they can't make would be a good example!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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17 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Three lairy cockneys didn't get to kiss their goal-scorer, well boo-*******-hoo.

Who gives a s***! Not sure why any City fan would be weeping over this.

They could've watched the rest of the match if they'd returned to their seats when asked and not decided to struggle with the stewards.

Football grounds are highly controlled environments. That often is quite frustrating for us fans, but we all know why the game has ended up like that. If someone tells you to return to your seat in an away ground, return to the area you're meant to be in and celebrate from there. Don't be a d***. You aren't Rambo. You're just a tosser who now has to wait around outside the ground for your mates for three-quarters of an hour while your team loses.

But this whole discussion isn't really about defending Charlton's fans, it's about a far wider  issue that effects us all as football fans: that being the over-zealous stewarding and daft regulations that have played a generous role in destroying the atmosphere inside stadiums. 

That even the police (who let's face it, don't need much encouragement to nick people at football) have chosen to ignore this incident says much about how grave the threat posed by these Charlton fans was. 

 

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1 hour ago, poland_exile said:

But this whole discussion isn't really about defending Charlton's fans, it's about a far wider  issue that effects us all as football fans: that being the over-zealous stewarding and daft regulations that have played a generous role in destroying the atmosphere inside stadiums. 

That even the police (who let's face it, don't need much encouragement to nick people at football) have chosen to ignore this incident says much about how grave the threat posed by these Charlton fans was. 

 

Hmmm. The point is though that the multiple number of stewards were needed not because they were being over-zealous, but because two fans were refusing to return to the area where they were supposed to be, then resisting leaving the ground.

People have looked at the incident on TV and said there were no punches thrown, and I'll accept that. I thought there were, but I was some way away.

But there was certainly some flailing arms and kicking legs and the last guy to leave the stadium put up one hell of a struggle against being removed.

Why do that? Even if you think it's not fair. You aren't ever going to win. And at worst, you'll end up before the magistrates after a night in the cells.

As I say, because of historic bad behaviour by a minority of fans we have to accept harsh and strict regulations within grounds. If a steward tells you to return to your seat, return to your seat.

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35 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Hmmm. The point is though that the multiple number of stewards were needed not because they were being over-zealous, but because two fans were refusing to return to the area where they were supposed to be, then resisting leaving the ground.

People have looked at the incident on TV and said there were no punches thrown, and I'll accept that. I thought there were, but I was some way away.

But there was certainly some flailing arms and kicking legs and the last guy to leave the stadium put up one hell of a struggle against being removed.

Why do that? Even if you think it's not fair. You aren't ever going to win. And at worst, you'll end up before the magistrates after a night in the cells.

As I say, because of historic bad behaviour by a minority of fans we have to accept harsh and strict regulations within grounds. If a steward tells you to return to your seat, return to your seat.

Bizarrely, despite fundamentally disagreeing with everything you have posted so far on the topic, I largely agree with you here :D 

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

if tomorrow the club got rid of the current stewarding team and hired a security firm/bouncers. Which would actually likely cause crowd problems sooner rather than later.

Don't know if you have ever noticed the men in black doormen in the south corner singing section. Was told by the senior steward that they have more power than the stewards. So watch out... zapp!

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13 minutes ago, T R said:

Don't know if you have ever noticed the men in black doormen in the south corner singing section. Was told by the senior steward that they have more power than the stewards. So watch out... zapp!

That sounds like it'll end well then, and won't/can't go wrong at all...

Recipe for disaster I fear, yikes!

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47 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That sounds like it'll end well then, and won't/can't go wrong at all...

Recipe for disaster I fear, yikes!

They're already treating us like aliens. Already made one complaint for one of them not wearing any I.D. If he asked me to do something and I didn't know who he was then it might cause an issue.

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The "open your jackets" check is no more than a security gesture. As many have pointed out, it's not consistently carried out at each entrance point. The Dolman being the most zealous but, like the other checkpoints, totally ineffective.

Much more thorough at the Etihad, and the last time I went to Fulham they had sniffer dogs in use as well. Looking for flares apparently, though I did confess that I hadn't worn them since the seventies.

On the other hand the security for the Rod Stewart concert was a lot more stringent and consistently applied, including a security check with some sort of hand held scanner passed closely over each person. 

I must admit that nowadays I just ignore the security and walk straight through. I guess that as a wrinklie I am not considered a threat.

Little do they know that I have vast amounts of Werthers Originals concealed.

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Stewards are not always that switched on.  My son was once asked to show his bag so he pulled up his shirt and showed his colostomy bag and said 'I need a loo urgently'.  The steward didn't have a clue what this was all about so summoned his supervisor who immediately opened a disabled toilet with a radar key.  

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Still stand by my overall view that a lot of our stewards aren't that bad. Orange, but especially black and blue jacketed ones though- or external security agency types- this has potential to cause issues, perhaps significant ones.

If things get very bad, thinking largely in the Singing section, could do worse than contact FSA Faircop to try and get things sorted constructively- like seems to have happened here.

 

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2 hours ago, Frenchay Red said:

The "open your jackets" check is no more than a security gesture. As many have pointed out, it's not consistently carried out at each entrance point. The Dolman being the most zealous but, like the other checkpoints, totally ineffective.

Much more thorough at the Etihad, and the last time I went to Fulham they had sniffer dogs in use as well. Looking for flares apparently, though I did confess that I hadn't worn them since the seventies.

On the other hand the security for the Rod Stewart concert was a lot more stringent and consistently applied, including a security check with some sort of hand held scanner passed closely over each person. 

I must admit that nowadays I just ignore the security and walk straight through. I guess that as a wrinklie I am not considered a threat.

Little do they know that I have vast amounts of Werthers Originals concealed.

Pryo dogs that failed to detect anything, so we got to see flares going off inside the stadium !

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