Points Earned By Individual Players

[Davefevs]

Question for you all.  We often talk about someone getting an equaliser earning us a point, e.g. Rowe v Birmingham (1-0 down, goal earns us a point).

How do you handle a game like Hull (a), where Afobe gave us the lead (therefore 2 points earned, a draw 1 point to a win 3 points), subsequently cancelled out, then Afobe puts us ahead again.  He can’t have earned 4 points - do you just take the latest event?

Similarly, how do you deal with a Preston?  2-0 up, 3-2 up, but pegged back to 3-3.  Do you take Baker’s goal as being the one that earns the point?

I look forward to your answers.

For example, 2-0 win v QPR....I would say Nagy earned us 2 points.  We were never behind and it was his goal that put us into a winning position.

[cityexile]

I have never quite looked at it from that end of the telescope, rather, what would have been the difference if the player had not scored?

So Fammy puts us 1-0 up, we draw 1-1, I tend to say he got us a point as if he did not we would have lost. It will not add up, as in 2-2 when we have different scorers, I just give both a ‘point’ whereas we only got one. If we win by more than one, I tend to say whoever put us ahead (although I have to worry about that less...). it never tends to balance anyway as a 0-0 no one got us the point, although of course we get one.

So...if at the end of the season I am interested how many points Fammy ‘earned’ us, I just tend to flick through the games he scored, and see how  many points less we would have got if he hadn’t got any. An imperfect science!

[Davefevs]

Ta, yes its an imperfect science as you say.  Under my method, you're 2-0 down, under the guy who gets the equaliser gets the point.  Mmmm, might have a think.  Under my current method, Fam is top with 4 points.  Also, nobody gets the points for Edwards o.g. v Stoke.

[ExiledAjax]

I think you take the decisive goal as the one that "earns" the points.

In a 1-0 result the sole goal is the one that decided where the points go. Up until that goal is scored the teams are deemed even. However the game may ebb or flow the points are shared.

Likewise in a game that ends 3-2 and goes 1-0, 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, then 3-2. It's that 3rd home goal that ultimately decided the game. So whoever scored that should get your credit.

In a game that ends 5-0 it's the first goal scored that actually won the game, the following four were just luxury.

It's subjective and others might have a different view...it's also unlikely to be something the club track, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think you take the decisive goal as the one that "earns" the points.

In a 1-0 result the sole goal is the one that decided where the points go. Up until that goal is scored the teams are deemed even. However the game may ebb or flow the points are shared.

Likewise in a game that ends 3-2 and goes 1-0, 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, then 3-2. It's that 3rd home goal that ultimately decided the game. So whoever scored that should get your credit.

In a game that ends 5-0 it's the first goal scored that actually won the game, the following four were just luxury.

It's subjective and others might have a different view...it's also unlikely to be something the club track, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Would you give Baker 1 point for his goal v Preston, as although it put us into a lead, it ultimately earned us a point?

[1960maaan]

 

Always considered it more of a commentator thing, and something that doesn't stack up if you actually examine it, as you have done. It's rare for someone to do it all by themselves, ie someone crosses, or sets the player up. Where it may work is an odd goal win thanks to a solo effort or shot from distance. 
Just my opinion , which in my house is Gospel. 

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Would you give Baker 1 point for his goal v Preston, as although it put us into a lead, it ultimately earned us a point?

For me , has to be the last goal for a point.

[ExiledAjax]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Would you give Baker 1 point for his goal v Preston, as although it put us into a lead, it ultimately earned us a point?

Ah got you. Yeh I would in that scenario. If we'd been 3-2 down and he'd scored then yes, so he should still get the credit even though we were up. That goal was the difference between us getting 1 and 0.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ah got you. Yeh I would in that scenario. If we'd been 3-2 down and he'd scored then yes, so he should still get the credit even though we were up. That goal was the difference between us getting 1 and 0.

Cool, that’s what I’ve done.

So Fam has “earned” 4 points, Weimann 3 points....they’re our leaders.

[Lanterne Rouge]

To complicate matters further surely you have to give points to defenders who prevent the opposition from scoring? Taylor Moore gets one off the line or DB saves a penalty in the 94th minute?

[JamesBCFC]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Question for you all.  We often talk about someone getting an equaliser earning us a point, e.g. Rowe v Birmingham (1-0 down, goal earns us a point).

How do you handle a game like Hull (a), where Afobe gave us the lead (therefore 2 points earned, a draw 1 point to a win 3 points), subsequently cancelled out, then Afobe puts us ahead again.  He can’t have earned 4 points - do you just take the latest event?

Similarly, how do you deal with a Preston?  2-0 up, 3-2 up, but pegged back to 3-3.  Do you take Baker’s goal as being the one that earns the point?

I look forward to your answers.

For example, 2-0 win v QPR....I would say Nagy earned us 2 points.  We were never behind and it was his goal that put us into a winning position.

Can I make an argument that vs Hull it was Massengo who won us the points?

He orchestrated 2 of our goals.

[Silvio Dante]

7 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

To complicate matters further surely you have to give points to defenders who prevent the opposition from scoring? Taylor Moore gets one off the line or DB saves a penalty in the 94th minute?

This.

Taking Weds, Brownhill doesn’t score without Palmers pass, so does Brownhill or Palmer earn us two points? Or is it Pereira for the quick throw? Or going back further, is it Bentley for the save from Pratley?

Basically, it’s all bollocks. A player can have a good game and score a goal that gives us a win. But that win doesn’t happen without the contribution of other players, either in the move or in general team play, and such a stat is not only meaningless - it’s also pretty offensive to the team ethic. 

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Can I make an argument that vs Hull it was Massengo who won us the points?

He orchestrated 2 of our goals.

No

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

This.

Taking Weds, Brownhill doesn’t score without Palmers pass, so does Brownhill or Palmer earn us two points? Or is it Pereira for the quick throw? Or going back further, is it Bentley for the save from Pratley?

Basically, it’s all bollocks. A player can have a good game and score a goal that gives us a win. But that win doesn’t happen without the contribution of other players, either in the move or in general team play, and such a stat is not only meaningless - it’s also pretty offensive to the team ethic. 

We already track many things like goals, assists, clean sheets, just someone mentioned that Rowe had two equalisers this season earning us two points, so I thought I’d do it for all players / games.

Last season I tracked the forwards (not strikers @Tipps69 ) to see how many goals were scored whilst they were on the pitch.  Surprisingly, Matty Taylor had the best “goals on pitch / per minute” even though he had less goals or assists to Fam and Andi.

Just gives another angle to a discussion (or bollocks in your case!!)....you know what I’m like with my spreadsheets!

[Silvio Dante]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We already track many things like goals, assists, clean sheets, just someone mentioned that Rowe had two equalisers this season earning us two points, so I thought I’d do it for all players / games.

Last season I tracked the forwards (not strikers @Tipps69 ) to see how many goals were scored whilst they were on the pitch.  Surprisingly, Matty Taylor had the best “goals on pitch / per minute” even though he had less goals or assists to Fam and Andi.

Just gives another angle to a discussion (or bollocks in your case!!)....you know what I’m like with my spreadsheets!

I know, the person who bought you excel needs to have a look at themselves

I can go with goals per minute on pitch, assists, tackles per game, key passes etc as they’re all specific to the players roles and are genuinely good metrics. I think my problem is that I couldn’t hit a barn door when I played so under this metric I’d never earn points - I’m sticking up for the one goal a year defenders union!

[Tipps69]

8 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I know, the person who bought you excel needs to have a look at themselves

I can go with goals per minute on pitch, assists, tackles per game, key passes etc as they’re all specific to the players roles and are genuinely good metrics. I think my problem is that I couldn’t hit a barn door when I played so under this metric I’d never earn points - I’m sticking up for the one goal a year defenders union!

@Davefevs, I can vouch for @Silvio Dante, he couldn’t hit a barn door when he played football Run through one, yes, hit one, not a hope in hell

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We already track many things like goals, assists, clean sheets, just someone mentioned that Rowe had two equalisers this season earning us two points, so I thought I’d do it for all players / games.

Last season I tracked the forwards (not strikers @Tipps69 ) to see how many goals were scored whilst they were on the pitch.  Surprisingly, Matty Taylor had the best “goals on pitch / per minute” even though he had less goals or assists to Fam and Andi.

Just gives another angle to a discussion (or bollocks in your case!!)....you know what I’m like with my spreadsheets!

And as for this, you seemingly know me too well

You’re giving credit for players being on the pitch but not actually contributing directly to anything of note, this should mean Semenyo is in the running for player of the year as he’s only been involved in one defeat (possibly) when in affect he’s contributed very little to any game he’s played in, in a positive way

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

@Davefevs, I can vouch for @Silvio Dante, he couldn’t hit a barn door when he played football Run through one, yes, hit one, not a hope in hell

And as for this, you seemingly know me too well

You’re giving credit for players being on the pitch but not actually contributing directly to anything of note, this should mean Semenyo is in the running for player of the year as he’s only been involved in one defeat (possibly) when in affect he’s contributed very little to any game he’s played in, in a positive way

Yep, stats are only as good as the context provided.

xG in particular is being referenced far too to much.  Look at this beaut!!

If you did a Spearman’s Rank on this, I reckon it would come out as very poor correlation.

[Tipps69]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, stats are only as good as the context provided.

xG in particular is being referenced far too to much.  Look at this beaut!!

If you did a Spearman’s Rank on this, I reckon it would come out as very poor correlation.

It makes me laugh because the commentators constantly keep saying that Leeds are by far the best team in the division & that they have the best manager & the best fans but where are they in the league? The division for me is poor (compared to previous years) but Leeds are still not running away with it! If they are so great, they are doing a very good job of not looking very good!

And as for your players for minutes for points stats, does that mean I’m due some credit because I’ve only seen us lose against Leeds in 10 games so far this season? Well if Semenyo getting credit, surely I’m due some

[Shtanley]

Last season didn't Diedhiou score more 'match winners' than anyone else in the division? 

Was certainly either him or Pukki. 

[New Dazzler]

Another possible way of looking at it is by sharing the points gained by the goal scorers.  I know this will sound slightly crackers but it would be tough on Fam to say his equaliser against Charlton was worth 1 point but Josh's winner was worth 2, so should they not be credited with 1.5 points each?  Or each goalscorer in the 3-3 at Preston gets credited with 0.33 as each scorer's contribution is the same, no matter at what stage of the match they scored it? Complicated, but just thought I would throw that one in!

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, New Dazzler said:

Another possible way of looking at it is by sharing the points gained by the goal scorers.  I know this will sound slightly crackers but it would be tough on Fam to say his equaliser against Charlton was worth 1 point but Josh's winner was worth 2, so should they not be credited with 1.5 points each?  Or each goalscorer in the 3-3 at Preston gets credited with 0.33 as each scorer's contribution is the same, no matter at what stage of the match they scored it? Complicated, but just thought I would throw that one in!

Nice idea.

[reddoh]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Question for you all.  We often talk about someone getting an equaliser earning us a point, e.g. Rowe v Birmingham (1-0 down, goal earns us a point).

How do you handle a game like Hull (a), where Afobe gave us the lead (therefore 2 points earned, a draw 1 point to a win 3 points), subsequently cancelled out, then Afobe puts us ahead again.  He can’t have earned 4 points - do you just take the latest event?

Similarly, how do you deal with a Preston?  2-0 up, 3-2 up, but pegged back to 3-3.  Do you take Baker’s goal as being the one that earns the point?

I look forward to your answers.

For example, 2-0 win v QPR....I would say Nagy earned us 2 points.  We were never behind and it was his goal that put us into a winning position.

Team Game

they now give the assist to the penultimate touch of the ball but what about the others who may have won the ball back, played a 2ft pass that opened doors for other players. crap officials who can't see a barn door let alone hit one.

the team earns the point(s) or occasionally not.

[JoeAman08]

For me it just doesn’t matter. Kasey Palmer wouldn’t get credit for the pass to Rowe v Birmingham or the pass to Brownhill v Charlton. Those passes were far more important than the finishes(good finishes tbf). I just don’t see the point of keeping that stat or even bringing it up. I am not that old but the eye test I still think can tell you more than a statistic. Not that stats shouldn’t be used just that they are probably used too much. Analytics are changing the way sports are played so be careful with them. 

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

For me it just doesn’t matter. Kasey Palmer wouldn’t get credit for the pass to Rowe v Birmingham or the pass to Brownhill v Charlton. Those passes were far more important than the finishes(good finishes tbf). I just don’t see the point of keeping that stat or even bringing it up. I am not that old but the eye test I still think can tell you more than a statistic. Not that stats shouldn’t be used just that they are probably used too much. Analytics are changing the way sports are played so be careful with them. 

Betraying your roots Joe.....you Americans build your sports around stats.

I do get what you mean.  None of it really matters other than the ultimate result.  The stats we get access to in the main fail to tell the story.  They’re very focussed on certain things and not the whole game.

I just thought it was an interesting thing, because you hear it banded around that x’s goals has earned y points this season, and my initial thought was how do they work it out.  Second thought was does it have any relevance.  Probably very little as it happens.

Bit like Moneyball.  The Saber guys worked out that OB% was more important to winning a game than Runs or Hits (I’ll bow to your expertise on Baseball), and that a top batter getting walked to 1st base was as important as getting there from a hit.

We all know football is far too fluid (I agree fully with @Tipps69 point on this)....and Rodri’s challenge from Brownhill’s Cross was enough to leave Fam with a headed goal.  Rodri gets no assist / credit, nor does Brownhill.  Fantasy Football started this imho, and the recent availability of usable stats has taken it further...that it’s become (incorrectly) the be-all and end-all.

I do like to question what I’ve seen with my own eyes, either live or on telly / laptop, by looking at Statszone and whoscored.  Wyscout is good for video clips.

[JoeAman08]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Betraying your roots Joe.....you Americans build your sports around stats.

I do get what you mean.  None of it really matters other than the ultimate result.  The stats we get access to in the main fail to tell the story.  They’re very focussed on certain things and not the whole game.

I just thought it was an interesting thing, because you hear it banded around that x’s goals has earned y points this season, and my initial thought was how do they work it out.  Second thought was does it have any relevance.  Probably very little as it happens.

Bit like Moneyball.  The Saber guys worked out that OB% was more important to winning a game than Runs or Hits (I’ll bow to your expertise on Baseball), and that a top batter getting walked to 1st base was as important as getting there from a hit.

We all know football is far too fluid (I agree fully with @Tipps69 point on this)....and Rodri’s challenge from Brownhill’s Cross was enough to leave Fam with a headed goal.  Rodri gets no assist / credit, nor does Brownhill.  Fantasy Football started this imho, and the recent availability of usable stats has taken it further...that it’s become (incorrectly) the be-all and end-all.

I do like to question what I’ve seen with my own eyes, either live or on telly / laptop, by looking at Statszone and whoscored.  Wyscout is good for video clips.

No doubt and wasn’t meant as a shot at you or anything like that. Just don’t like that stat. 
 

And yes stats are very important in US sports but they have affected the games.
 

Analytics has basically killed traditional big men in basketball. There aren’t many post scorers anymore and the ones that have that game can now shoot. Midrange jumpshots are now looked at as bad shots because of % based on amount of points. Means more 3 pointers and layups/dunks. Not an awful thing but for anyone older than 25 doesn’t feel the same game. 
 

In baseball the game has changed so much with stats. Used to be a strategy game and managers would go head to head just as much as the players. Analytics have stopped that. Stats told them homeruns are too efficient not to swing as hard as you can. Strikeouts are now ok. Using an out to bunt and move a runner into scoring position is a rarity and just doesn’t feel right. 
 

This may sound all trivial to you a lot of people here but it will get to that point here and many won’t like what they see. Probably stuff like more short corners, less crosses in general and maybe less longshots. Change is generally good but think stats are drastically changing things in 5-10 year spans and going to leave a lot of people frustrated. 
 

[miketh2nd]

As much as goals are important so are the work like perfomances like wiemann brownhill and williams do, every game for me these are the core to our team and are key to our good form...and yet this won't be picked up by all the stat bots.... 

[Davefevs]

@JoeAman08 great post
 

@miketh2nd yes, very true. I love seeing a run by someone like Weimann that creates space for someone else. Won’t get picked up in the stats. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Question for you all.  We often talk about someone getting an equaliser earning us a point, e.g. Rowe v Birmingham (1-0 down, goal earns us a point).

How do you handle a game like Hull (a), where Afobe gave us the lead (therefore 2 points earned, a draw 1 point to a win 3 points), subsequently cancelled out, then Afobe puts us ahead again.  He can’t have earned 4 points - do you just take the latest event?

Similarly, how do you deal with a Preston?  2-0 up, 3-2 up, but pegged back to 3-3.  Do you take Baker’s goal as being the one that earns the point?

I look forward to your answers.

For example, 2-0 win v QPR....I would say Nagy earned us 2 points.  We were never behind and it was his goal that put us into a winning position.

I noticed on Twitter, Dave, you said that Hunt has scored two own goals this season when talking about assists ... when were they?! Can’t recall them - not exactly on topic, but sort of ... apologies for that..

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I noticed on Twitter, Dave, you said that Hunt has scored two own goals this season when talking about assists ... when were they?! Can’t recall them - not exactly on topic, but sort of ... apologies for that..

Assisted two own goals. Hull and Stoke, not scored two og’s. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Assisted two own goals. Hull and Stoke, not scored two og’s. 

Ah ok, your tweet said “...if you add his two own goals” - that’s what confused me!

[TBW]

I got for the simplest answer. The goal that ultimately makes the difference at full time. Everything else is just leading up to it.