The Tinkering Has To Stop

[Redland]

Most successful teams have a set style of play with the same formation and a preferred first team lineup. They play to their strengths.  Obviously substitutions are needed from time to time due to injuries, suspensions etc but those coming in simply slot in to the formation and style of play. After many years of  LJ  I could not tell you what his preferred formation is, what his preferred first team lineup is nor what is his preferred style of play. 

 

[cidered abroad]

54 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Fair point....home "form" is not too bad although you've left out the Leeds result when it would be more objective to include it.

Our home performances are how I should have described my original post. And that extends back into the whole of last season.

The players literally don't know from one game to the next whether they'll be playing and more importantly what they're expected to do when they are on the pitch.

Going forward, we lack any shape and conviction. There is literally nothing constructive about how we move into the opposition half. If the ball ends up in the box, there is rarely anyone either with a foot or head to bury it in the net. I accept that this is partly to do with the striker situation and I don't blame LJ or the club for Afobe's injury.

But we look completely random. Both Charlton and Wigan had more purpose, assurance and accuracy about their play. We beat Charlton with a wondergoal and a strong cameo from Deidhiou. We didn't deserve a point against Wigan.

The players literally don't know what they should be doing.  Defined passages of play are incredibly rare.

I do have perspective and I'm really pleased to be where we are at this point in the season. I also accept that injuries are significant when key players are missing.

But when a Wigan player is clear through on goal and not one of four defenders is within sight of him in the middle of park with just Bentley to save us (again) then there is a serious problem with how our team is organised.

The players at LJ's disposal simply do not have the flexibility to change tactics and formation week after week - more often than not within a game. Away from home we can afford to be more reactive but at home, supporters need to see purpose and understanding from the players on the pitch. I honestly think they are as confused as the fans in the stands.

First sentence!

If you think our home form is " Not too bad", I respect your opinion.

I consider it is awful. No entertainment, allowing teams that are struggling at the bottom to dictate tactics and tempo.

Our only tactic is to try and draw the opponents out and hit them on the break. The tactics of an away side, exactly the same as his father inflicted on us, and giving so much respect to the away team in our home games that they end up dictating every aspect.

And the the final twenty minutes of gung ho all out attack to save face.

I've had enough and don't know how much longer I'll put up with it.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

It was poor marking from City from two corners that in other games they would have had no problem defending.

Something or some one was at fault for both Wigan goals. 

I only saw the goals live and haven’t yet seen any replays to try and make that call.

As Gary Owers noted in his match summary, we missed Fam in defence as well as attack.

He's always great at defending corners. One of our most effective players at neutering opposition set pieces in fact.

[Super]

I honestly cant remember the last home game where we actually played well.

[Xiled]

3 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

First sentence!

If you think our home form is " Not too bad", I respect your opinion.

I consider it is awful. No entertainment, allowing teams that are struggling at the bottom to dictate tactics and tempo.

Our only tactic is to try and draw the opponents out and hit them on the break. The tactics of an away side, exactly the same as his father inflicted on us, and giving so much respect to the away team in our home games that they end up dictating every aspect.

And the the final twenty minutes of hung ho all out attack to save face.

I've had enough and don't know how much longer I'll put up with it.

Home form: 12 points from a maximum of 21 (probably not good enough for promotion but "not too bad")
Home performances: Awful

The fact that we can win away matches shows that we do have the players and even in the middle of a significant injury crisis have enough quality in this division. There is a genuine problem at home and from my perspective that's largely due to constant (and often unnecessary) formation and player changes. Too much respect given to poor opposition.

4 minutes ago, Super said:

I honestly cant remember the last home game where we actually played well.

For me it was against West Brom - 9th April. And before that I have no idea.

[ScottishRed]

29 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

First sentence!

If you think our home form is " Not too bad", I respect your opinion.

I consider it is awful. No entertainment, allowing teams that are struggling at the bottom to dictate tactics and tempo.

Our only tactic is to try and draw the opponents out and hit them on the break. The tactics of an away side, exactly the same as his father inflicted on us, and giving so much respect to the away team in our home games that they end up dictating every aspect.

And the the final twenty minutes of gung ho all out attack to save face.

I've had enough and don't know how much longer I'll put up with it.

You are absolutely right as I commented on in @spudski ‘ s thread last week on ‘Identity’ .

Today was utterly predictable and it’s been this way for way too long, injured players or not.

LJ  needs to stop worry about the opposition and enforce our game plan on them - he does exactly the opposite and worries way too much about what they might / could do.

Decide a style of play that suits the players and stick with it.

The other hugely annoying factor today was going long with no tall forward playing -  it’s just giving the ball away.

[Guest]

LJ has shown he will pick one team and stick to it when it looks superb. But we have not really had superb performances. I mean games where we look good in all areas, where you'd say yeah let's stick with that. So he is tinkering and maybe he may stumble upon the perfect formula. Either way, having so many key players out makes it very hard no matter what he does. I really wouldn't be surprised if he goes back to the 4141 with Fam up top when Fam is back until he gets a Nketiah in January. Unless Rodri is a lot better than today of course and then maybe he is the answer, but today was a bit concerning. Hoping hes just not fit yet and much better than that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Wigan playing one upfront we play with a back five an still cant keep em out?

4-3-3, or 4-5-1- or hybrid?

Definite differences between all 3.

[Mr Popodopolous]

34 minutes ago, Super said:

I honestly cant remember the last home game where we actually played well.

Charlton surely.

Charlton's away form has been quite strong, yet 2nd half we played very well.

QPR riding quite high, the first half we had a nice amount of control- with Nagy on the pitch.

Suppose no 90 minute performances in quite some time though.

[Wrongagain]

Charlton were singing “is this a library?” and that is unfortunately the way things look, team selection has to be a nightmare with all the injuries, but why are we coming second in so many games when it comes to possession and passing accuracy!  I don’t believe that training sessions can be any better - it seems like we get more excited over bad officials than anything else, the team needs the fans behind them but it’s up to the team to give the fans something to cheer about. 
The solution has to be In Failand training, tactics and execution, I have never watched any training, but I am sure the 11 starting players must have earned their place in the team - so what is the problem? Why can we not dominate any of the teams from lower down the table at home?

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Home form: 12 points from a maximum of 21 (probably not good enough for promotion but "not too bad")
Home performances: Awful

The fact that we can win away matches shows that we do have the players and even in the middle of a significant injury crisis have enough quality in this division. There is a genuine problem at home and from my perspective that's largely due to constant (and often unnecessary) formation and player changes. Too much respect given to poor opposition.

For me it was against West Brom - 9th April. And before that I have no idea.

Or maybe we at times, have quite a reactive style which suits us on the road, but gets us found out at home.

Question is, with all the injuries- your OP lists significantly problems,  how do we set up- and yes you talk about poor opposition at home, but show me easy games, show me big margins? Not many!

Alternatively, provide a setup you think you will do the job- there has to be an element of this, modern football is in some ways like chess.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Charlton were singing “is this a library?” and that is unfortunately the way things look, team selection has to be a nightmare with all the injuries, but why are we coming second in so many games when it comes to possession and passing accuracy!  I don’t believe that training sessions can be any better - it seems like we get more excited over bad officials than anything else, the team needs the fans behind them but it’s up to the team to give the fans something to cheer about. 
The solution has to be In Failand training, tactics and execution, I have never watched any training, but I am sure the 11 starting players must have earned their place in the team - so what is the problem? Why can we not dominate any of the teams from lower down the table at home?

Because most sides in this division play some form of a central midfield 3.

It's modern, it's progressive- we struggle with this. No I don't include O'Dowda and Palmer alongside Brownhill as a bona fide 3- means Brownhill is fighting fires as Palmer especially isn't brilliant defensively.

[ChippenhamRed]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Charlton surely.

Charlton's away form has been quite strong, yet 2nd half we played very well.

QPR riding quite high, the first half we had a nice amount of control- with Nagy on the pitch.

Suppose no 90 minute performances in quite some time though.

Also thought we were decent first half v Reading. Dominated possession, created a number of chances and took the lead.

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Also thought we were decent first half v Reading. Dominated possession, created a number of chances and took the lead.

Yeah true that- they are down the bottom though which should be factored in, but believe they are a side better than their position indicate/indicated. That was good, the only shame was we only got one! in that dominant first half.

[ChippenhamRed]

51 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

First sentence!

If you think our home form is " Not too bad", I respect your opinion.

I consider it is awful. No entertainment, allowing teams that are struggling at the bottom to dictate tactics and tempo.

Our only tactic is to try and draw the opponents out and hit them on the break. The tactics of an away side, exactly the same as his father inflicted on us, and giving so much respect to the away team in our home games that they end up dictating every aspect.

And the the final twenty minutes of gung ho all out attack to save face.

I've had enough and don't know how much longer I'll put up with it.

We need to make a distinction here between form, performances and entertainment.

Form tables are determined by results (usually the last 5 or 6); we’ve not lost in six at home, winning three. Clearly not awful.

Performances are a different matter. I can accept that entertainment value might not be great, but can performances really be considered “awful” when, ultimately we’ve done enough to draw or win for the last six games? That suggests to me that we are at least broadly effective, if not enjoyable to watch.

If you just label things as “awful”, you don’t really leave yourself anywhere to go when you’re on a winless run getting routinely tanked by 2, 3 or 4 goals. Pretty sure things have been a lot more awful than this.

[Mr Popodopolous]

We played well 2nd half vs Charlton- a side who have drawn at WBA, Fulham 2-2, we did it with 10- complaints anyone?

We were building and building good pressure and were really quite unlucky to concede when we did.

@cidered abroad Oddly that was somewhat in reverse vs Reading, variable vs Charlton- your narrative doesn't necessarily fit the facts. Does it happen? Yes- but it's a more complex picture IMO.

[Redtucks]

25 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Charlton were singing “is this a library?”

Didn't here them singing that at the end though!

 

[Super]

He still hasnt a clue on selection and formation at home. You know exactly what you are going to get every home game its so predictable and yet he has got it right mostly away from home. It will hold us back unless he sorts it out.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Super said:

I honestly cant remember the last home game where we actually played well.

Beating Swansea 2-0 at home last season is the last home game when I thought we played brill ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Beating Swansea 2-0 at home last season is the last home game when I thought we played brill ...

Had a decent chunk less of the ball though, 2nd half especially- for what that's worth.

[J-mat]

4 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Speak for yourself you *****.they need to learn to pick him up then he done it twice.

Every post you've made in this thread demonstrates that you know precisely nothing about football. 

People like you bemuse me, I'm presuming at some point you'll bang on about the 30 years you've been going to the gate entitling you to your verbal diarrhea... Sorry opinion, but how you e watched this game for any period of time and managed to learn absolutely nothing about it is incredible. Infact, every one of my under 15s team would be able to dissect the performance today in a way that would embarrass you (as if your postings on this thread didn't already)

Thank god the club makes a bit of money off you, because your "support" is worth **** all apart from that. 

[J-mat]

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

First sentence!

If you think our home form is " Not too bad", I respect your opinion.

I consider it is awful. No entertainment, allowing teams that are struggling at the bottom to dictate tactics and tempo.

Our only tactic is to try and draw the opponents out and hit them on the break. The tactics of an away side, exactly the same as his father inflicted on us, and giving so much respect to the away team in our home games that they end up dictating every aspect.

And the the final twenty minutes of gung ho all out attack to save face.

I've had enough and don't know how much longer I'll put up with it.

Even Ian Wright, in his interview with Downsy, alluded to the way away teams come here and "park the bus" or to use the correct term, use the low block.

Breaking down the low block is bloody difficult, and drawing teams out is almost exclusively the only remedy other than individual moments of brilliance or defensive mistakes. 

We could wack balls in the box, but Famara is out. We cant hit them on the break, because they're in their own half. 

I've worked in the game for years at various levels, and I'm still to find a better solution than drawing teams out. What's your solution? I'm presuming you know better than say Pep? Who at Barcelona created a style of play that used the ball deep for long periods to draw defenders out before moving quickly in one touch through midfield areas... That was with the best players in the world. Josh Brownhill is not one of the best players in the world. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

9 minutes ago, J-mat said:

Even Ian Wright, in his interview with Downsy, alluded to the way away teams come here and "park the bus" or to use the correct term, use the low block....

With all due respect, we had to invite Ian Wright to get him to come down to Ashton Gate for the first time in a zillion years - so how would he know how away teams set up against us ... ?!

[J-mat]

3 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

With all due respect, we had to invite Ian Wright to get him to come down to Ashton Gate for the first time in a zillion years - so how would he know how away teams set up against us ... ?!

His job is to watch football. 

From everything I know about Wrighty, I think it's safe to assume he's a professional and diligent person when it comes to his work. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

8 minutes ago, J-mat said:

His job is to watch football. 

From everything I know about Wrighty, I think it's safe to assume he's a professional and diligent person when it comes to his work. 

So you think he knows how away teams set up at every league club?! Doubtful. More likely is that he assumes away clubs park the bus against teams towards the top of the championship. Not exactly rocket science. I love Wrighty, he’s a top bloke, but his eyes were opened when he visited Ashton Gate ...

[Out of his pie crust]

Arrrrrggghhhh

[AppyDAZE]

In a way, I do have to agree with the OP

After all, they do say it can make you go blind

[cidered abroad]

Thanks for the comments which are appreciated.

The results are not as bad as the performances at home. We've now had poor home performances for approaching two years. By performance, I include entertainment, the ability to control games and the results.

We've now had two full seasons and the first three months of this one, where our home form and results have stopped us making a sustained push for automatic promotion or a third or fourth spot in a play off place.

If LJ is such a good coach, and bearing in mind the financial backing he's had from SL, why has he not worked out how to control home games in the way that he has in away matches?

[italian dave]

Lee Johnson has taken us to sixth spot, a point from second, in probably the fifth toughest league in Europe. He's consistently improved the team and our league position for four years. He can tinker, or not tinker, or pick, or sub, or bring on who he wants as far as I'm concerned. He knows better that me, and, with the greatest respect to posters  on here, my money would be on him over any of us as making the right decision about who and how we play.

Ive got my views like everyone else, and fair enough that we debate them, but to demand that someone who's got his track record "has to stop..." just seems to me presumptuous beyond belief. 

[BITW]

5 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Ok, he can cross a ball and did set up the equaliser. But him not playing was not the reason we were poor today. 5 or 6 had an off day. You seem to have a sense of entitlement that we should be smashing Wigan. With the current players fit and available we won’t be smashing anyone. After your earlier rant you maybe need to take a step back and consider players we have out injured and how the side will improve when they are back and we can rotate players.

Ok he’s created the most chances in championship this season despite only starting 3 games. But.......