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Dullmoan Tone

Things we remembered today (that we already knew)

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Wigan are not a very good team

Moore would not have been the answer to our number 9 problem

Eliasson is not always going to be the solution

Baker is not a ball playing centre back

Andi is not a natural finisher

We cannot break down stubborn physical teams at home

Kasey is brilliant (early pass), immobile and inconsistent (and recklessly slide tackles too often after losing the ball)

Bentley is a superb keeper

We cannot keeping changing formation and selection and hope to progress.

We do finish strongly... but start so slowly at home.

Oh how we miss the regulars

Anything else?

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Moore wouldn’t have been the answer but I’d happily have him as a back up striker. Would be happy if we was playing for us today 

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I didn't think Wigan were "not a very good team" 

With some better decision making they could have been home and dry today. I thought they were miles better than I was expecting they'd be.

Edited by AppyDAZE
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If we'd had Moore playing instead of Rodri I think we might've won today so not sure what that one's all about

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4 minutes ago, shelts said:

I thought Moore was excellent today . He would fit well into our side 

I agree. He was big, strong, mobile and a proper handful throughout the game. We looked so lightweight up front.... I’d have him up there ahead of any of our available options on that evidence. 

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8 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

I didn't think Wigan were "not a very good team" 

With some better decision making they could have been home and dry today. I thought they were miles better than I was expecting they'd be.

Absolutely they were. They belied their lowly Championship position. I thought they executed their game plan brilliantly and in all honesty deserved all three points.

City dodged a bullet for sure.

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15 minutes ago, Jacki said:

I agree. He was big, strong, mobile and a proper handful throughout the game. We looked so lightweight up front.... I’d have him up there ahead of any of our available options on that evidence. 

I don’t disagree 

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40 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Wigan are not a very good team

Moore would not have been the answer to our number 9 problem

Eliasson is not always going to be the solution

Baker is not a ball playing centre back

Andi is not a natural finisher

We cannot break down stubborn physical teams at home

Kasey is brilliant (early pass), immobile and inconsistent (and recklessly slide tackles too often after losing the ball)

Bentley is a superb keeper

We cannot keeping changing formation and selection and hope to progress.

We do finish strongly... but start so slowly at home.

Oh how we miss the regulars

Anything else?

Agree with most of that.

Thought Kieffer Moore was very good today..but yeah not what I'd want here.

Weimann is very erratic. Such a shame he does miss a lot of chances. 

And Baker at left of a 3 is ridiculous, especially when we have Rowe who offers so little goung forward next to him.

Don't get it at all. We have him unoccupied and just seems pointless as he can't step out. Hes in to win headers and is actually not that great in the air, doesn't get tight enough. Wright is shorter but so strong and gets tight and wins or puts people off headers with his strength.

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Football is a simple game. It involves accurate passing (Fail ). Breaking down stubborn defences ( Fail ).  Going forward more often than sideways or backwards ( Fail ). Creating chances from set pieces ( Fail ). Working the opposition keeper ( Fail ) Playing the ball out from defence to our players preferably  ( Fail )....

OTHER THAN THAT I STILL LOVE 'EM....!!!!  😂 

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17 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Wigan are like a lot of teams in this league, capable of looking like a decent side but inconsistent with it.

 

That’s us!

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1 hour ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Wigan are not a very good team

Moore would not have been the answer to our number 9 problem

Eliasson is not always going to be the solution

Baker is not a ball playing centre back

Andi is not a natural finisher

We cannot break down stubborn physical teams at home

Kasey is brilliant (early pass), immobile and inconsistent (and recklessly slide tackles too often after losing the ball)

Bentley is a superb keeper

We cannot keeping changing formation and selection and hope to progress.

We do finish strongly... but start so slowly at home.

Oh how we miss the regulars

Anything else?

We don't have to rely on large away followings (unlike..you know who) to get a good attendance !

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1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

I didn't think Wigan were "not a very good team" 

With some better decision making they could have been home and dry today. I thought they were miles better than I was expecting they'd be.

Didn't make it today, but I thought in last seasons 2-2, they were also a fair bit better than were anticipated/billed in the run up.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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57 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

We are poor at home

12 pts from 7 isn't so terrible- and 12 from 6 since the signings.

Could be a bit better of course, but don't see our results at home as terrible.

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41 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

We don't have to rely on large away followings (unlike..you know who) to get a good attendance !

And they still don't get a good attendance 😳😳

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2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Agree with most of that.

Thought Kieffer Moore was very good today..but yeah not what I'd want here.

Weimann is very erratic. Such a shame he does miss a lot of chances. 

And Baker at left of a 3 is ridiculous, especially when we have Rowe who offers so little goung forward next to him.

Don't get it at all. We have him unoccupied and just seems pointless as he can't step out. Hes in to win headers and is actually not that great in the air, doesn't get tight enough. Wright is shorter but so strong and gets tight and wins or puts people off headers with his strength.

Jon, you have a massive blind spot re Rowe.  

Who appeared in the box (from a throw on the opposite side) to cross-shot for Weimann to open the scoring?  If you said “doesn’t offer as much as Dasilva” I could understand your argument a bit, but to say “offers so little” is just untrue.  How often did he make unselfish runs in the second half to give Callum the chance to go down the outside?  He’s not a player to go on mazy dribbles or hit the bye-line.

Jamal Rowe was brilliant positionally when Baker had the ball, stopping multiple passing angles.

Wright has proven to be weak on the ball on left side of defence.

Baker’s distribution was poor today, it had little tempo....but that’s no reason to apportion fault to Rowe either.

Rowe - 2 goals (yes one when he’d moved into midfield), 2 assists and 1 brought down for a penalty v Hull (that didn’t count as an assist for some reason) from 13 games.  He’s offered similar returns to Hunt, who gets rave reviews.

There are more expansive LBs / LWBs in this division, but they are poorer defensively.  When I see O’Dowda dangling a leg or not even challenging (thought generally he did well today), I’m glad we haven’t given him a go at LWB, and that we have Rowe.  He’s not stellar, but he’s bloody reliable, Street-wise, and technically decent.

 

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Palmer is so much better when he plays away from home, gets so much more space to hit those turns and initiate counter attacks. Today unfortunately he was just far too confined. 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Jon, you have a massive blind spot re Rowe.  

Who appeared in the box (from a throw on the opposite side) to cross-shot for Weimann to open the scoring?  If you said “doesn’t offer as much as Dasilva” I could understand your argument a bit, but to say “offers so little” is just untrue.  How often did he make unselfish runs in the second half to give Callum the chance to go down the outside?  He’s not a player to go on mazy dribbles or hit the bye-line.

Jamal Rowe was brilliant positionally when Baker had the ball, stopping multiple passing angles.

Wright has proven to be weak on the ball on left side of defence.

Baker’s distribution was poor today, it had little tempo....but that’s no reason to apportion fault to Rowe either.

Rowe - 2 goals (yes one when he’d moved into midfield), 2 assists and 1 brought down for a penalty v Hull (that didn’t count as an assist for some reason) from 13 games.  He’s offered similar returns to Hunt, who gets rave reviews.

There are more expansive LBs / LWBs in this division, but they are poorer defensively.  When I see O’Dowda dangling a leg or not even challenging (thought generally he did well today), I’m glad we haven’t given him a go at LWB, and that we have Rowe.  He’s not stellar, but he’s bloody reliable, Street-wise, and technically decent.

 

With Rowe I mean he doesn't have the pace to drive forward from deep. When he's in and around the box, generally more central the better, he is actually quite decent. Though when wide he rarely crosses the ball as he can't make that yard to deliver it.

But let's say it was O'Dowda being fed the ball safely by Baker, as Baker won't advance up the pitch like Moore. O'Dowda can advance up the pitch so many yards, maybe even evade a challenge and keep going or come inside.

Baker being a basic side ways and backwards passer when under any kind of pressure from opponents, in a position that ideally you want a ball player means that I really want more than what Rowe can give next to him.

Obviously Dasilva would be perfect as he is one of our most creative players, arguably our most creative.

If Rowe maybe had Moore next to him in that 352 then Moore can carry the ball and then there isn't so much of a pressure on Rowe to drive us forward.

Rowe is better at left back with a dribbler in front of him, where Rowe can do a more solid job of defending. But as a wing back he doesn't do enough for me.

Not his fault he is slow, but I personally don't really want a slow wing back. I want one that can get up and down the line with pace, to drive us on down that side.

I also ideally like one that can attack one on one, by taking on their man like Dasilva or O'Dowda. 

Rowe more often than not passes safely in that wide position. Maybe that wouldn't be the case in his best position (midfield) where he can move the ball in any direction he chooses.

Someone near me today I heard saying first half Weimann is the only one doing anything on the left. And i thought well Rowe as a wing back should be up there doing more. Or pick Taylor Moore on the left, instruct him to join in attacks like he was so much mid week, and get Rowe to cover him when he does. But Rowe and Baker trying to build attacks on that side is painful to watch imo.

Talking of left sided players, Robinson looked superb again today. Quite amazing that Wigan got him for so cheap. Think there is probably a buy back clause in there for that to have happened, as I fancy him to make it as a prem player.

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3 hours ago, KevP said:

Football is a simple game. It involves accurate passing (Fail ). Breaking down stubborn defences ( Fail ).  Going forward more often than sideways or backwards ( Fail ). Creating chances from set pieces ( Fail ). Working the opposition keeper ( Fail ) Playing the ball out from defence to our players preferably  ( Fail )....

 

And avoiding defeat, and getting in the top six. Remember them two! And picking up points when you ain't playing well, that's another.

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6 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Performances, yes. Results, this season, no.

Performances at home have been generally poor since the infamous Wolves game nearly 2 years ago, with a few honourable exceptions (e.g. last season against Swansea and West Brom). 

Last season,  the results pretty much matched the performances. This season we are doing slightly better, but we certainly don’t look to dominate teams from the start of the match, more bore them into a false sense of security until 60 minutes, then bring on some substitutes, change formation, and actually go for it.

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4 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Wigan are not a very good team

Moore would not have been the answer to our number 9 problem

Eliasson is not always going to be the solution

Baker is not a ball playing centre back

Andi is not a natural finisher

We cannot break down stubborn physical teams at home

Kasey is brilliant (early pass), immobile and inconsistent (and recklessly slide tackles too often after losing the ball)

Bentley is a superb keeper

We cannot keeping changing formation and selection and hope to progress.

We do finish strongly... but start so slowly at home.

Oh how we miss the regulars

Anything else?

Totally agree

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People will still want LJ out regardless of our progression year after year ? 

If we had anyone else in charge I think we’d be in a relegation battle come May. He knows his players.

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3 minutes ago, RedEyez said:

People will still want LJ out regardless of our progression year after year ? 

Do they?      :dunno:

I think the vast majority of LJs original critics have had a gradual change of opinion.
 

 

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

12 pts from 7 isn't so terrible- and 12 from 6 since the signings.

Could be a bit better of course, but don't see our results at home as terrible.

It's not the results that are the problem though is it.

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15 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Do they?      :dunno:

I think the vast majority of LJs original critics have had a gradual change of opinion.
 

 

Yeah. Not so much on here but other people I talk to away from social media platforms. 

Weird innit?

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4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Agree with most of that.

Thought Kieffer Moore was very good today..but yeah not what I'd want here.

Weimann is very erratic. Such a shame he does miss a lot of chances. 

And Baker at left of a 3 is ridiculous, especially when we have Rowe who offers so little goung forward next to him.

Don't get it at all. We have him unoccupied and just seems pointless as he can't step out. Hes in to win headers and is actually not that great in the air, doesn't get tight enough. Wright is shorter but so strong and gets tight and wins or puts people off headers with his strength.

I think Taylor moore is unlucky to get dragged off game after game.

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4 hours ago, Roe said:

If we'd had Moore playing instead of Rodri I think we might've won today so not sure what that one's all about

Yet we saw fit not to sign him or any other striker on a permanent basis. He would not have broken the bank. I cannot see the sense in this and I am sure we won't want to spend the money in January when players are dearer. It is going to haunt us all season.

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15 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

I think Taylor moore is unlucky to get dragged off game after game.

He got injured Robin.......tweaked his knee just on half time

Edited by Robbored

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17 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yet we saw fit not to sign him or any other striker on a permanent basis. He would not have broken the bank. I cannot see the sense in this and I am sure we won't want to spend the money in January when players are dearer. It is going to haunt us all season.

As it has done in several previous seasons.

A key signing, which we can make now, is an attacking coach for our forwards. A coach who has played in attack and knows what it is all about and knows how to build partnerships (either with the players we have or one’s to go out and buy).

At the moment there is little if any cohesion between our attacking players and no ‘partnerships’ seem to exist where players anticipate what others are going to do. Dysfunctional at best. 

Edited by RedRock
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10 minutes ago, RedRock said:

As it has done in several previous seasons.

A key signing, which we can make now, is an attacking coach for our forwards. A coach who has played in attack and knows what it is all about and knows how to build partnerships (either with the players we have or one’s to go out and buy).

At the moment there is little if any cohesion between our attacking players and no ‘partnerships’ seem to exist where players anticipate what others are going to do. Dysfunctional at best. 

Genuinely would be shocked if we don't have one!

@spudski and @Cowshed plus @Davefevs often post very interesting tactical stuff.

Would have assumed we would have a specialist coach in each area ie goalkeeper, defence, midfield and attack? Maybe wingers too.

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30 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yet we saw fit not to sign him or any other striker on a permanent basis. He would not have broken the bank. I cannot see the sense in this and I am sure we won't want to spend the money in January when players are dearer. It is going to haunt us all season.

Love a bit of hindsight 

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Think most of us saw we were weak upfront. 

Not a great fan of signing temps. either. The consequence of doing this is you don’t develop long-term partnerships. Twelve months and whoever it is buggers off. 

Need a minimum of four out-and-out high quality strikers to mount a serious promotion challenge in this league. One is always likely to be injured or suspended, leaving three for selection. 

We’re nowhere near that at the moment. 

So we go, yet again, in January and try and get two in. January you pay over the odds and Clubs are unwilling to sell.

We know that and we know that our track record of trying to sign attackers in January ranges between disastrous and calamitous.

Maybe this season we’ve learnt from past mistakes, though I ain’t holding my breath. 

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54 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yet we saw fit not to sign him or any other striker on a permanent basis. He would not have broken the bank. I cannot see the sense in this and I am sure we won't want to spend the money in January when players are dearer. It is going to haunt us all season.

We signed Afobe who is different and better. “One a permanent basis” is irrelevant.

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42 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Genuinely would be shocked if we don't have one!

@spudski and @Cowshed plus @Davefevs often post very interesting tactical stuff.

Would have assumed we would have a specialist coach in each area ie goalkeeper, defence, midfield and attack? Maybe wingers too.

Kind remark … City do have specialist coaches working with the squad in units. Lee Johnson also brings in coaches to work alongside the permanent staff.

54 minutes ago, RedRock said:

As it has done in several previous seasons.

A key signing, which we can make now, is an attacking coach for our forwards. A coach who has played in attack and knows what it is all about and knows how to build partnerships (either with the players we have or one’s to go out and buy).

At the moment there is little if any cohesion between our attacking players and no ‘partnerships’ seem to exist where players anticipate what others are going to do. Dysfunctional at best. 

This is not necessarily going to be improved by bringing in additional support. Coaches follow the Managers direction and his ideas. Cohesion is generally created by familiarity. The tasks are imbed into the squad via intensive periodized training collectively and in units . At present the team is seeing change. The training therefore will be episodic and less likely to imbed itself in the team.

 

 

Edited by Cowshed
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43 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Kind remark … City do have specialist coaches working with the squad in units. Lee Johnson also brings in coaches to work alongside the permanent staff.

This is not necessarily going to be improved by bringing in additional support. Coaches follow the Managers direction and his ideas. Cohesion is generally created by familiarity. The tasks are imbed into the squad via intensive periodized training collectively and in units . At present the team is seeing change. The training therefore will be episodic and less likely to imbed itself in the team.

 

 

Bow to your superior knowledge.....but some partnerships click straight away, while others - no matter how much familiarity - just don’t work.

I feel at the moment, whichever players you pick, from central forwards, attacking midfield, wings, there’s just no telepathy in our advanced forward play. There’s no two or three players who instinctively know what the others are doing. That’s needed, as micro-seconds in this league make all the difference. 

My fear is that is we’re at this point because no real quality thought has been given to attacking skill-sets of individual players and to matching no them up with others. I hope I’m wrong, as that would be an elementary error. 

The nearest we had was the developing and promising relationship between Palmer and Afobe. With Afobe out,  we have no back up player with a similar skill set, as a consequence £4 million Palmer seems totally lost and his contribution much devalued. 

Fast tempo, fluid football - which I think is our much-vaunted ‘identity’ - depends more on instinct, natural football intelligence and complementary player skills than coaching drills for me. As always a question of balance, but I look currently at Semenyo -who appears a rabbit in headlights - as his brain flicks through pages of coaching manuals as to where he should be and what he should be doing!

Edited by RedRock

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2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Bow to your superior knowledge.....but some partnerships click straight away, while others - no matter how much familiarity - just don’t work.

I feel at the moment, whichever players you pick, from central forwards, attacking midfield, wings, there’s just no telepathy in our advanced forward play. There’s no two or three players who instinctively know what the others are doing. That’s needed, as micro-seconds in this league make all the difference. 

My fear is that is we’re at this point because no real quality thought has been given to attacking skill-sets of individual players and to matching no them up with others. I hope I’m wrong, as that would be an elementary error

The nearest we had was the developing and promising relationship between Palmer and Afobe. With Afobe out,  we have no back up player, as a consequence Palmer’s seems totally lost and his contribution much devalued. 

Players do not instinctively know what others are going to do as this anticipation, understanding is generally coached in, or gained by their own experiences. Humans as football players can react in microseconds because we have the ability to recognise patterns of play while discounting what is not relevant and also understand the communication players demonstrate e.g ,body language, eyes. This ability becomes what is known as unconscious competence - Players act on auto pilot following the cues they see.

You may be answering your own points with the highlighted text but intense focussed training that is consistent and repetitive does improve understanding .. That improvement is lessened by change.   

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9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Players do not instinctively know what others are going to do as this anticipation, understanding is generally coached in, or gained by their own experiences. Humans as football players can react in microseconds because we have the ability to recognise patterns of play while discounting what is not relevant and also understand the communication players demonstrate e.g ,body language, eyes. This ability becomes what is known as unconscious competence - Players act on auto pilot following the cues they see.

You may be answering your own points with the highlighted text but intense focussed training that is consistent and repetitive does improve understanding .. That improvement is lessened by change.   

But I look at our attacking spearhead... Fammy, Andi, Kasey, Calum and Eliason .... I think of the hundred of hours of intensive training that’s gone in .... and do I see any partnerships developing? Do I see instinctive patterns of play between two, three, any of them? 

Struggling to be honest... hence the call for an attacking coach. However, I fear the problem may be well-beyond what coaching can address i.e.  non-complementary skill/mind sets. 

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