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Mr Popodopolous

Facial Recognition at Football- will we see it at AG?

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A few months ago I posted about it on the policing football thread.

Maybe it should be merged into that thread, but maybe it's worth a thread in its own right.

Swansea v Cardiff the other week...will we see it soon at AG?

Actually, something about it today in fact.

 

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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FFS, those individuals who are making racist remarks, or monkey noises, or those thumping another spectator because he/she is supporting the other team - then I hope facial recognition is in place and helps put you in the dock to face justice. As for the 90% law abiding citizens we have nothing to fear.

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People only complain about facial recognition technology if they have something to hide.

It doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not convinced it's so benign tbh.

Why? 

As Pop says if you do nothing illegal what’s the problem?

People forget the CCTV that is pretty much everywhere in towns and Cities.

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2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Why? 

As Pop says if you do nothing illegal what’s the problem?

People forget the CCTV that is pretty much everywhere in towns and Cities.

Oh yeah, we're already pretty saturated with it for sure...dunno though, it's a gut feeling.

Seems quite prone to misidentification for a start!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh yeah, we're already pretty saturated with it for sure...dunno though, it's a gut feeling.

Seems quite prone to misidentification for a start!

Dunno if you saw the BBC thriller ‘The Capture’ recently but it showed just malleable CCTV is.........for good and bad........:cool2:

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5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Dunno if you saw the BBC thriller ‘The Capture’ recently but it showed just malleable CCTV is.........for good and bad........:cool2:

I'm not sure it really showed anything to be honest. Amazing show and a great watch, but it's fiction, not reality.

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16 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Dunno if you saw the BBC thriller ‘The Capture’ recently but it showed just malleable CCTV is.........for good and bad........:cool2:

As somebody who has worked in this area and much like the utter BS that was The Bodyguard, Capture was fiction on steroids (though quite enjoyable to watch.) Secure communications use hashing algorithms to ensure what's sent, received or shared are one and the same, or will tell you if they've been amended, even by the slightest margin. As many hereabouts have pointed out if you've nothing to hide you've no worries ( from Government .) On the other hand if you've a conviction and are subject to a football banning order it's relatively simple to run facial mapping against what is a small database. And why not?

I wonder why the Muppet holding the banner felt the need to obscure his mug? 

The joke being all the do-gooders who fret about 'Liberty Infringement' carry phones, use Facebook and Twitter, shop at Tesco and Sainsbury's, carry contactless cards, wear wireless earphones and brag about their smart TVs and speakers. Big Brother ain't in Whitehall, it's in all those tech and trading companies we seemingly can no longer do without.

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7 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As somebody who has worked in this area and much like the utter BS that was The Bodyguard, Capture was fiction on steroids (though quite enjoyable to watch.) Secure communications use hashing algorithms to ensure what's sent, received or shared are one and the same, or will tell you if they've been amended, even by the slightest margin. As many hereabouts have pointed out if you've nothing to hide you've no worries ( from Government .) On the other hand if you've a conviction and are subject to a football banning order it's relatively simple to run facial mapping against what is a small database. And why not?

I wonder why the Muppet holding the banner felt the need to obscure his mug? 

The joke being all the do-gooders who fret about 'Liberty Infringement' carry phones, use Facebook and Twitter, shop at Tesco and Sainsbury's, carry contactless cards, wear wireless earphones and brag about their smart TVs and speakers. Big Brother ain't in Whitehall, it's in all those tech and trading companies we seemingly can no longer do without.

What ‘The Capture’ showed, bullshit storyline or  not was how malleable CCTV is.

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

What ‘The Capture’ showed, bullshit storyline or  not was how malleable CCTV is.

Not if you know what you're looking for. After all, it's simply a succession of still images and like with Photoshop if you know how to look at the meta data contained within the image you can tell if it's been doctored.

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

What ‘The Capture’ showed, bullshit storyline or  not was how malleable CCTV is.

It’s like anything in life, a bit of experience makes it very easy to separate something genuine from something full of shit.

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13 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

Birmingham City

And what benefit to that particular scenario would facial recognition technology have had?  

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Sorry if some of You already read it but I posted this in the cashless Brentford topic, it suits here as well and may serve as a comparison of some kind. Also a "tale" about how people react to these kind of things in a football stadium. 

In our new stadium (Ferencváros, stadium was built in 2014) in order to fight against this "Balkan, agressive fanbase" stereotype You can only enter if You register first (except VIP ticket holders). You get a fan card with Your name, You get a pin code (sort of) by scanning Your palm and when You buy a ticket (season or single game is the same) online it goes to You fan card. Then You can enter the stadium by scanning Your card and palm ét voila! You're in. And after that what correlates to this topic is that You can ONLY buy cashless in the stadium WITH Your fan card: You can either put cash on it via the stewards circulating in the stadium or straight through credit card. And at the end of the season let's say theres 5 pound left on the card it goes straight to the bank account of Ferencváros' youth teams.

I have to say I like this system: there was a big fight with the ultras about that palm scanning ( for 3 years they didn't show up in the stadium) but the management negotiated with them and they're back now. And the athmospere is way better than ever, really became much more cultured and You only need 1 fan card for everything: thats Your ticket and paying card as well, You get it once and don't ever have to again mess with paper ticket, money, etc. Of course it's still a possibility to buy a ticket in person if You want to have it for example as a memory. And the away end remains as normal, cash at the buffet. 

 

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Try getting into a football match in Italy.

Italian nationals have to show an id card & foreigners have to show a passport to buy a ticket and to enter the stadium.

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2 hours ago, old_eastender said:

FFS, those individuals who are making racist remarks, or monkey noises, or those thumping another spectator because he/she is supporting the other team - then I hope facial recognition is in place and helps put you in the dock to face justice. As for the 90% law abiding citizens we have nothing to fear.

That’s hell of a presumption to cast on everyone.

I have a right not to be invaded by anyone or anything regardless of your opinion.

as for your 90% of having nothing to fear is a very naive statement because of 10% of misbehaving others will suffer.

your suggestion reminds me of someone supporting a “police state “.

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17 minutes ago, myol'man said:

Try getting into a football match in Italy.

Italian nationals have to show an id card & foreigners have to show a passport to buy a ticket and to enter the stadium.

I know- went Roma-Inter and had to do just that in August 2017!

Think they've got slightly wider issues in their game though, also throw in a bit of typical Italian bureaucracy and the 2 combined account for that.

Still can't say I'm pro facial recognition at football- perhaps even in general.

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Do nothing wrong, nothing to fear.... 

Simple.

Birmingham City

55 minutes ago, Robbored said:
1 hour ago, RedLionLad said:

Birmingham City

And what benefit to that particular scenario would facial recognition technology have had?  

I think RLL was referring to the fact that a lot of people did nothing wrong, but actually did have something to fear.  Not facial recognition per se.

Valid point

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6 minutes ago, StGeorge said:

Do nothing wrong, nothing to fear.... 

Simple.

Birmingham City

I think RLL was referring to the fact that a lot of people did nothing wrong, but actually did have something to fear.  Not facial recognition per se.

Valid point

A valid point to facially recognise the police officers may have speeded the process up.

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55 minutes ago, Redwhitepurple said:


Freedom went from the uk a good while ago now. Only lazy people say' if you have nothing to hide'

Care to elaborate? I’ve never done much wrong and consequentially never faced any unjust trouble. And I wouldn’t consider myself lazy whatsoever, far from it. I keep hearing people say things like this. 

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I personally find facial recognition scary no matter where it’s used despite having ‘nothing to fear’.  Use in countries with dubious human rights records, against people simply protesting scares the hell out of me.  For systems like this to be acceptable you have to have complete faith in your government and also your future governments.  I wonder if we were sitting in Hong Kong or Moscow whether we’d still be happy.

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20 minutes ago, General Zod said:

I personally find facial recognition scary no matter where it’s used despite having ‘nothing to fear’.  Use in countries with dubious human rights records, against people simply protesting scares the hell out of me.  For systems like this to be acceptable you have to have complete faith in your government and also your future governments.  I wonder if we were sitting in Hong Kong or Moscow whether we’d still be happy.

Spot on, “big brother syndrome “.

we have the most cctv cameras in the world and yet we have one of worst crimes committed.

its all about control to give you an impression your free and secured when it’s the opposite 

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59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I know- went Roma-Inter and had to do just that in August 2017!

Think they've got slightly wider issues in their game though, also throw in a bit of typical Italian bureaucracy and the 2 combined account for that.

Still can't say I'm pro facial recognition at football- perhaps even in general.

I bought two tickets at stadium in Vienna for Austria v Wales, three years ago and we had to show passports.

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36 minutes ago, Crackers Corner said:

Would never work at the mem, far too many fans for any database to cope with.

 

Yeah, and all the uncles look like the brothers

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4 hours ago, old_eastender said:

FFS, those individuals who are making racist remarks, or monkey noises, or those thumping another spectator because he/she is supporting the other team - then I hope facial recognition is in place and helps put you in the dock to face justice. As for the 90% law abiding citizens we have nothing to fear.

Where’s the data held, how safe is it from being nicked for other reasons?  What are they actually using it for?  Who might it be sold to?

Thin end of the wedge if you ask me,  CCTV is looked at in the event of a complaint, face recognition data stores information that can be mined.

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Why the picture of Eric Blair?  
1984 is long gone.

Last Sunday I could have sworn my clock struck 13.......

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13 minutes ago, RumRed said:

face recognition data stores information that can be mined.

From a professional perspective I can assure you it's easier to generate useful data as to where you were at any given point in time via your mobile telephone or smart TV.

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9 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

From a professional perspective I can assure you it's easier to generate useful data as to where you were at any given point in time via your mobile telephone or smart TV.

Not if you put measures in place 🤓

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You can request any personal data (cctv) that’s held by the police or any other private corporation under DPA and GDPR 2018. And ask for that personal data to be destroyed.

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Facial recognition is the way ahead. Tickets and season cards will no longer exist as your face will be your season ticket. There will be no more passing a season card to someone else to borrow for a match. The only way someone other than the registered season ticket holder will gain admittance will be if the season ticket holder agrees to be decapitated and their head is brought to the ground to be recognized. And that is unlikely to happen unless it's a really massive game. Even then anyone carrying a head is bound to get stopped by the bag checkers before even reaching the turnstiles.

Of course, there is nothing to stop someone who has died naturally and has a season ticket from having their head removed so it can be bought on eBay to increase the value of their estate. I just hope these people will then have the good grace to put the head under their seat so as not to alarm fellow spectators. 

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The nothing to hide nothing to fear argument is one I tend to lazily follow; at the end of the day it holds up most of the time in a country such as the UK. But when you think of it, the argument doesn't really hold weight.

The issue is, the acceleration of technologies that increase in surveillance and the collection of data on individuals are tools. The people who buy these technologies, and the people who use them, can change pretty drastically in a short space of time. I know I'd certainly be questioning the implementation of them if I was in Chile or Hong Kong at the moment. Not only this, remember, the software developers that create the algorithms for these complex softwares are people; often people who work for one company, with subjective opinions, feelings and backgrounds - even benign looking tools will have been built on prejudices that aren't immediately obvious, and ones we don't necesarily understand.

Sure , use them at the footy in 2019 at your Saturday 3pm kickoff, but treat it with the slight trepidation it deserves

Edited by underhanded
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I would kick up a real fuss if the club even '"trialed" it for one game. 

"If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" , what a load of bollocks. 

 

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2 hours ago, General Zod said:

I personally find facial recognition scary no matter where it’s used despite having ‘nothing to fear’.  Use in countries with dubious human rights records, against people simply protesting scares the hell out of me.  For systems like this to be acceptable you have to have complete faith in your government and also your future governments.  I wonder if we were sitting in Hong Kong or Moscow whether we’d still be happy.

we're doomed captain mainwaring we're doomed.

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18 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

I would kick up a real fuss if the club even '"trialed" it for one game. 

"If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" , what a load of bollocks. 

 

Agree, to say “nothing to worry about” is a delinquent thoughtless statement.

Many people in recent times have come to serious consequences for not questioning authorities behaviour because of nothing to worry about. The list are endless and just to name one Grenfell Towers

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8 minutes ago, Greatgraham said:

Agree, to say “nothing to worry about” is a delinquent thoughtless statement.

Many people in recent times have come to serious consequences for not questioning authorities behaviour because of nothing to worry about. The list are endless and just to name one Grenfell Towers

Yeah I do have to agree.

Wasn't totally sure about my personal opinions on stop and search until I saw a fact that said 97% of them result in nothing. Punishing everyone to stop the few. 

 

Not a massive fan of his podcast but Joe Rogan had Edward Snowden on it recently.

Quite an alarming insight into the world of mass surveillance and why we need to be made more aware of it all.

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7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

A few months ago I posted about it on the policing football thread.

Maybe it should be merged into that thread, but maybe it's worth a thread in its own right.

Swansea v Cardiff the other week...will we see it soon at AG?

Actually, something about it today in fact.

 

Not.a.chance. 
 

our stewards are too busy terrorising us to undo our bl00dy coats on a cold, rainy day!!!! 🙄

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5 hours ago, Robbored said:

And what benefit to that particular scenario would facial recognition technology have had?  

You know exactly what I was referring to.

People who do nothing wrong DO have something to worry about, but you as per usual, are being a dick.

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I presume all images are destroyed after?

No need for the police to keep a record of mine or my families faces is there?

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