'Performance state'

[SedRA]

In last weeks post match conference LJ talked about our psychological 'performance state' and how we hadn't seemed to have found that yet.

The term performance state seemed essentially to mean being 'fired up' before a game, saying its harder to find that nowadays as the new breed of player is a bit less aggressive generally and referencing Keane's comments about the friendliness between players in the Liverpool v Man U game. 

Whilst I understand his observation of the modern players mindset it also seems a more specific problem for LJs teams as we have routinely seen us come out looking lacking in energy compared to the opposition and often waiting for events in the game to trigger a more aggressive mindset. 

What I understand from inside the club LJ is very much liked by the players, but does lack some of the authority you might get from a more old school, no nonsense manager like Chris Wilder. I appreciate LJ tries to lead in a more empathetic modern style but the pitfall of that approach is it can be easy to get comfy and complacent and I feel we suffer from that. 

Thoughts? 

[Harry]

Not sure Wilder ought to be described as “old school”. 

Motivation is more than just firing up your players with aggression and intimidation, which seems to be the crux of your suggestion (correct me if I’m wrong). 

If anything, the modern day player will react less positively to aggression from their boss. 

[And Its Smith]

The players need one formation and style and to learn it. Not chop and change. 

[Robbored]

Getting the players ‘fired up’ in readiness for the game  isn’t necessarily LJs  job . He has Deano and Macca along with Bailey Wright and other senior players to fire up the players. 

The real question could/should  be - why do the players need to be fired up?

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Getting the players ‘fired up’ in readiness for the game  isn’t necessarily LJs  job . He has Deano and Macca along with Bailey Wright and other senior players to fire up the players. 

The real question could/should  be - why do the players need to be fired up?

What on earth, Its 100% his job to get the player fired up...

or at minimum make sure the right coach/player does it. 

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Sturny said:

What on earth, Its 100% his job to get the player fired up...

or at minimum make sure the right coach/player does it. 

How do you know?  

Can you imagine Wenger firing up the Arsenal at their peak?  No.....he had the likes of Tony Adams and Patrick Vieira. 

[Sturny]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

How do you know?  

Can you imagine Wenger firing up the Arsenal at their peak?  No.....he had the likes of Tony Adams and Patrick Vieira. 

Yes I can..  and even if they did, Wenger made sure they did, which is his responsibility. 

If you watch some of the football manager documentaries on amazon prime you can see what managers do. Plenty of pre-game dressing room videos on YouTube too where the manager fires up the team 

[SedRA]

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not sure Wilder ought to be described as “old school”. 

Motivation is more than just firing up your players with aggression and intimidation, which seems to be the crux of your suggestion (correct me if I’m wrong). 

If anything, the modern day player will react less positively to aggression from their boss. 

I think Wilder does have a more old school, no nonsense approach psychologically (as opposed to tactically). He wasnt who I was saying LJ needs to be like, just a reference to a current successful manager that has that more direct, aggressive mindset. 

Yeah, I think you have the wrong end of the stick regarding what I mean by authority. It's possible to fire people up through your presence, without necessarily being aggressive or intimidating in a threatening way to your own players (a positive type of aggression you could say), think Klopp,Potch or Pep for obvious references but you also see it in Nuno at Wolves and Eddie Howe at Bournemouth. They have that empathetic ability but also have that ruthlessness and controlled aggression that I think LJ lacks/needs to develop. 
 

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, RedSA said:

In last weeks post match conference LJ talked about our psychological 'performance state' and how we hadn't seemed to have found that yet.

The term performance state seemed essentially to mean being 'fired up' before a game, saying its harder to find that nowadays as the new breed of player is a bit less aggressive generally and referencing Keane's comments about the friendliness between players in the Liverpool v Man U game. 

Whilst I understand his observation of the modern players mindset it also seems a more specific problem for LJs teams as we have routinely seen us come out looking lacking in energy compared to the opposition and often waiting for events in the game to trigger a more aggressive mindset. 

What I understand from inside the club LJ is very much liked by the players, but does lack some of the authority you might get from a more old school, no nonsense manager like Chris Wilder. I appreciate LJ tries to lead in a more empathetic modern style but the pitfall of that approach is it can be easy to get comfy and complacent and I feel we suffer from that. 

Thoughts? 

Sports psychologists frequently describe three mindsets - Challenge, threat and complacent. Some use four - Scared, nervous, confident and complacent.  

Aggression does not generally feed the most positive state of mind. To create a challenge/confident mindset requires empathy, understanding, communication skills to create buy in to the football the Manager/Coach wants.

Bristol City have employed in the past one of the best psychologists specialising in football there is - Bill Beswick. One of Mr Beswick's beliefs is everything starts with the vision. The players have to share in that vision and everything follows, the teams culture, its values, its principles .. 

Its very hard to pin down what Lee Johnsons footballing principles are. Bristol City have lost and found and lost identities. Teams that display fighter mindsets are the ones generally who know what they are about, that knowing creates unifying purpose and culture.

Bristol City's performances display, may display a lack of belief from the players in the Managers direction/vision. A different thing to being no nonsense.   

[Bristol Oil Services]

46 minutes ago, RedSA said:

In last weeks post match conference LJ talked about our psychological 'performance state' and how we hadn't seemed to have found that yet.

The term performance state seemed essentially to mean being 'fired up' before a game, saying its harder to find that nowadays as the new breed of player is a bit less aggressive generally and referencing Keane's comments about the friendliness between players in the Liverpool v Man U game. 

Whilst I understand his observation of the modern players mindset it also seems a more specific problem for LJs teams as we have routinely seen us come out looking lacking in energy compared to the opposition and often waiting for events in the game to trigger a more aggressive mindset. 

What I understand from inside the club LJ is very much liked by the players, but does lack some of the authority you might get from a more old school, no nonsense manager like Chris Wilder. I appreciate LJ tries to lead in a more empathetic modern style but the pitfall of that approach is it can be easy to get comfy and complacent and I feel we suffer from that. 

Thoughts? 

If it were something endemic within the "new breed of player" then the players at other clubs would be the same, would they not?

[SedRA]

3 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

If it were something endemic within the "new breed of player" then the players at other clubs would be the same, would they not?

Yeah, that was kind of my point. 

[cidered abroad]

Good post RedSA.

I would describe the way we play as typical of how LJ played the game. Slow, or perhaps better described as one pace, ponderous, safety first, trying to not lose. Except for the late in the game, chasing it for a draw or late winner.

If we had a manager/head coach with the attitude of the current Wolves manager, Nuno Espirito Santo, who actively encourages his team to attack, I sincerely believe that we would already be in the Premier League.

I'm doubtful that we ever will with LJ.

I know I'll get abuse from some accusing me of hating him or not being satisfied with sixth place at the moment.

But we have again, in the last two matches, thrown away a glorious chance to be sitting at the top of the table. I'd rather be there now than sixth.

 

 

 

[Cowshed]

29 minutes ago, RedSA said:

I think Wilder does have a more old school, no nonsense approach psychologically (as opposed to tactically). He wasnt who I was saying LJ needs to be like, just a reference to a current successful manager that has that more direct, aggressive mindset. 

Yeah, I think you have the wrong end of the stick regarding what I mean by authority. It's possible to fire people up through your presence, without necessarily being aggressive or intimidating in a threatening way to your own players (a positive type of aggression you could say), think Klopp,Potch or Pep for obvious references but you also see it in Nuno at Wolves and Eddie Howe at Bournemouth. They have that empathetic ability but also have that ruthlessness and controlled aggression that I think LJ lacks/needs to develop. 
 

These Managers are what are termed authentic leaders. 

What they have is a overriding big plan. These plans have principles or what are also called keystone behaviours. Players have to meet/possess these behaviours, these skills and in the dressing room the Manager has his Leaders. Guardiola had his cultural architects (Leaders) in Busquets, Iniests, Xavi who uphold these keystone behaviours and believe in their Leaders big plan, vision, project etc. 

Klopp again has a vision; leaders in the dressing room .. 

Mr Johnson can't be an authentic Leader because he has no plan in the same sense or the consistencies underpinning it.  

[GlastonburyRed]

Does the modern player even need to be 'fired up'?! They are professionals. They need good training that replicates what they will be faced with during the Matchday 90. Like any one of us in our job, we need a plan that we can ruthlessly execute on a daily basis. Yes, psychologists might be able to able to add a % performance point here or there, and may well add particular value to particular players but, devising simple plans, with everyone knowing their job, and playing to their respective strengths is where the Manager/Head Coach/Supervisor etc. ultimately earns their salt. I think LJ is above average, I do, in his profession, but above average does not get us to the promised land. We need outstanding/excellent for that, the wider issue for us fans is asking whether we accept financially stable, championship stable football, or do we yearn for more - only we have the answer to that. 

[Cowshed]

7 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

Does the modern player even need to be 'fired up'?! They are professionals. 

Yes the week should where a Professional player is being prepared tactically, technically, physically, and psychologically for the next game.

9 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

They need good training that replicates what they will be faced with during the Matchday 90. Like any one of us in our job, we need a plan that we can ruthlessly execute on a daily basis. Yes, psychologists might be able to able to add a % performance point here or there, and may well add particular value to particular players but, devising simple plans, with everyone knowing their job, and playing to their respective strengths is where the Manager/Head Coach/Supervisor etc. ultimately earns their salt. 

And in turns sends players out physically and mentally prepared. Prepare badly and poor performance physically and mentally follows.   

[joe jordans teeth]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Not sure Wilder ought to be described as “old school”. 

Motivation is more than just firing up your players with aggression and intimidation, which seems to be the crux of your suggestion (correct me if I’m wrong). 

If anything, the modern day player will react less positively to aggression from their boss. 

Fear you are right,a lot of the players nowadays won’t have people shouting at them when they are not doing what they should be

[AshtonGreat]

As with any industry, an awful lot of this new-age management stuff is a load of old b*llocks

[Numero Uno]

Wilders treatment of his keeper Henderson the other week was interesting.......”I’m not putting my arm round him, he needs to learn to concentrate better if he wants to be a top keeper” followed by 2-3 clean sheets since!!

[Guest]

I have yet to really see a team that don't give their all under LJ. Even on that terrible record breaking losing run, I did not really see a team not fighting for their manager. I did see an absolutely terrible team, but they were trying.

[SedRA]

56 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

These Managers are what are termed authentic leaders. 

What they have is a overriding big plan. These plans have principles or what are also called keystone behaviours. Players have to meet/possess these behaviours, these skills and in the dressing room the Manager has his Leaders. Guardiola had his cultural architects (Leaders) in Busquets, Iniests, Xavi who uphold these keystone behaviours and believe in their Leaders big plan, vision, project etc. 

Klopp again has a vision; leaders in the dressing room .. 

Mr Johnson can't be an authentic Leader because he has no plan in the same sense or the consistencies underpinning it.  

Agreed. But I would suggest he lacks a plan and the consistencies underpinning because he’s not an authentic leader rather than the other way around. And he seems to lack authentic leadership because he’s actually quite deeply insecure, despite his projection of confidence.

As someone who has worked with people trying to unpick the mechanisms underneath their persona, I would see him as a classic case of ‘the bigger the front, the bigger the back’. Getting a clear plan won’t make him be authentic, he’ll just have a clear plan.
 

Being authentic is a psycho emotional quality, often to do with accessing emotional vulnerability/core emotional truths. Vulnerability in this sense means exposing the deep emotional insecurities/wounds that cause us to create protective mechanisms in our behaviour to protect them from being exposed. This usually happens through major life events/experiences, guidance and challenge from a role model or coach or certain types of psychological therapy. 
 

When you are comfortable with vulnerability/showing authenticity and truly ‘know yourself’ it is easier to create, share and stick to a vision/plan as you are less susceptible to being thrown off course for fear of being ‘found out’ or your emotional vulnerabilities exposed. 

One of the main things you feel with Klopp and Pep etc is an ‘open heart’ and freedom to show the fire in their bellies, they are vulnerable emotionally (in a positive sense) and that gives them a clarity and energy that inspires. 

LJ has all the tools in terms of intellect but to me his teams are his expression of his own guarded nature, lacking authenticity and identity through fear of being ‘found out. 
 

 

15 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I have yet to really see a team that don't give their all under LJ. Even on that terrible record breaking losing run, I did not really see a team not fighting for their manager. I did see an absolutely terrible team, but they were trying.

There’s a difference between trying and being fired up.

[Cowshed]

16 hours ago, RedSA said:

Agreed. But I would suggest he lacks a plan and the consistencies underpinning because he’s not an authentic leader rather than the other way around. And he seems to lack authentic leadership because he’s actually quite deeply insecure, despite his projection of confidence.

As someone who has worked with people trying to unpick the mechanisms underneath their persona, I would see him as a classic case of ‘the bigger the front, the bigger the back’. Getting a clear plan won’t make him be authentic, he’ll just have a clear plan.
 

Being authentic is a psycho emotional quality, often to do with accessing emotional vulnerability/core emotional truths. Vulnerability in this sense means exposing the deep emotional insecurities/wounds that cause us to create protective mechanisms in our behaviour to protect them from being exposed. This usually happens through major life events/experiences, guidance and challenge from a role model or coach or certain types of psychological therapy. 
 

When you are comfortable with vulnerability/showing authenticity and truly ‘know yourself’ it is easier to create, share and stick to a vision/plan as you are less susceptible to being thrown off course for fear of being ‘found out’ or your emotional vulnerabilities exposed. 

One of the main things you feel with Klopp and Pep etc is an ‘open heart’ and freedom to show the fire in their bellies, they are vulnerable emotionally (in a positive sense) and that gives them a clarity and energy that inspires. 

LJ has all the tools in terms of intellect but to me his teams are his expression of his own guarded nature, lacking authenticity and identity through fear of being ‘found out. 
 

 

There’s a difference between trying and being fired up.

I avoided the possible whys of why Lee Johnson is not a authentic Leader (yet) and referred to the methodologies present in others. Lee Johnson is not consistent in approach. It is a big point. 

One of the main things you feel with Klopp and Pep etc is an ‘open heart’ and freedom to show the fire in their bellies, they are vulnerable emotionally (in a positive sense) and that gives them a clarity and energy that inspires. 

I like that line. They are inspiring. They have conviction. Its balls out without fear.

When you are comfortable with vulnerability/showing authenticity and truly ‘know yourself’ it is easier to create, share and stick to a vision/plan as you are less susceptible to being thrown off course for fear of being ‘found out’ or your emotional vulnerabilities exposed.

And that one.

A point there is that Lee Johnson is susceptible to being thrown off course. This affects consistency. It will make him harder to follow and trust in. This goes right back to your first post, lack of consistency can and will affect the mindsets of players. 

And yes there is a difference between trying and being fired up. Doubting tactics, individuals, the uncontrollables gnaws away at mental effort which effects physical effort. 

[spudski]

What you fail to state, is that when comparing LJ with the likes of Pep, is that LJ is having to work within a remit set down by the Club. It's not his idea...it's one he's agreed to work within. It's been sold him and he and his team sell it to the rest of the players and staff.

As for not being a leader of men...how do you know? You only see him being interviewed or matchday. No one knows what he's really like at the training ground or in the changing room.

Players have all said how refreshing it is to work with him and they are learning new skills.

As for Pep...he has an ideology from his time at Barcelona...he shows passion and also has the budget to buy the very best players. He's said on record that his players would do well under any manager.

As for being self doubting regarding LJ...compare Man City who employ Peps best mate, who has no experience of football, just to be around him and the players as a crux and motivational speaker.

[SedRA]

20 minutes ago, spudski said:

What you fail to state, is that when comparing LJ with the likes of Pep, is that LJ is having to work within a remit set down by the Club. It's not his idea...it's one he's agreed to work within. It's been sold him and he and his team sell it to the rest of the players and staff.

As for not being a leader of men...how do you know? You only see him being interviewed or matchday. No one knows what he's really like at the training ground or in the changing room.

Players have all said how refreshing it is to work with him and they are learning new skills.

As for Pep...he has an ideology from his time at Barcelona...he shows passion and also has the budget to buy the very best players. He's said on record that his players would do well under any manager.

As for being self doubting regarding LJ...compare Man City who employ Peps best mate, who has no experience of football, just to be around him and the players as a crux and motivational speaker.

Good points, although it’s pretty clear to me from outside that he has a nice guy persona that will interfere with his ability to have clear and authentic leadership.

I’ll pm regarding the bold bit. 

[Cowshed]

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

What you fail to state, is that when comparing LJ with the likes of Pep, is that LJ is having to work within a remit set down by the Club. It's not his idea...it's one he's agreed to work within. It's been sold him and he and his team sell it to the rest of the players and staff.

 

The football is Mr Johnsons. The football is a reflection of him. 

Pep Guardiola. The tactical periodisation is his. The use of half spaces, inverted wingers, splitting CB's are his ideas. The principles of immediate pressure, constant support of the football, dominating possession .. The model of play is what he has to sell to the players. Players with massive egos, and money and they buy into it.

I could do the same with Klopp, but the model is different but consistent.

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

As for not being a leader of men...how do you know? 

I referred to authentic Leadership. And why. 

There are other forms of Leadership  coercive, expert, reward … Mr Johnson will be expert and qualified. 

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

Players have all said how refreshing it is to work with him and they are learning new skills.

 

Good. 

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

ls.

As for Pep...he has an ideology from his time at Barcelona...he shows passion and also has the budget to buy the very best players. He's said on record that his players would do well under any manager.

 

He also added to that ideology. He buys players to a model that he alters little. An identity. You regularly post about Mr Johnsons teams not having identity.

The very best players should do well. Liverpool did brilliantly and still finished second to Man City. Stirling has improved to a point that looks astonishing, beyond a well. 

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

As for being self doubting regarding LJ...compare Man City who employ Peps best mate, who has no experience of football, just to be around him and the players as a crux and motivational speaker.

Guardiola employs people with relevant skills to football. Psychologists, a water polo coach .. As you have posted yourself the principles of hard work, ten thousand hours are relevant in all sports.  

[spudski]

31 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The football is Mr Johnsons. The football is a reflection of him. 

Pep Guardiola. The tactical periodisation is his. The use of half spaces, inverted wingers, splitting CB's are his ideas. The principles of immediate pressure, constant support of the football, dominating possession .. The model of play is what he has to sell to the players. Players with massive egos, and money and they buy into it.

I could do the same with Klopp, but the model is different but consistent.

I referred to authentic Leadership. And why. 

There are other forms of Leadership  coercive, expert, reward … Mr Johnson will be expert and qualified. 

Good. 

He also added to that ideology. He buys players to a model that he alters little. An identity. You regularly post about Mr Johnsons teams not having identity.

The very best players should do well. Liverpool did brilliantly and still finished second to Man City. Stirling has improved to a point that looks astonishing, beyond a well. 

Guardiola employs people with relevant skills to football. Psychologists, a water polo coach .. As you have posted yourself the principles of hard work, ten thousand hours are relevant in all sports.  

I agree with your points...mine was more a response to his motivation and leadership.

He also has club stance to adhere to that will have a knock on effect to the playing ideology.

If players progress and develop under us and do well, they get moved on. And we have to start again, and hopefully get it right when finding replacement's. It's flawed to work 100%. 

Then we've had the injuries and let downs like Nketiah.

Yes we've lost our Identity, and for me it started when Famara joined. We are in between...

If we hadn't had to sell imagine how much better we'd have been with Webster, Kelly, Reid, Bryan and the likes of Afobe, DaSilva, Nagy, Smith, Kalas back fit.

LJ doesn't have the luxury of Pep and Klopp.

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

19 hours ago, RedDave said:

The players need one formation and style and to learn it. Not chop and change. 

Absolutely correct. I said in the pre season the successful teams choose a formation and buy to fit that system.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Absolutely correct. I said in the pre season the successful teams choose a formation and buy to fit that system.

And then drill it, and impose it on the opposition.  Work out plans for the games it’s not perfect and find solutions within it, that us amateurs don’t really notice.

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree with your points...mine was more a response to his motivation and leadership.

He also has club stance to adhere to that will have a knock on effect to the playing ideology.

If players progress and develop under us and do well, they get moved on. And we have to start again, and hopefully get it right when finding replacement's. It's flawed to work 100%. 

Then we've had the injuries and let downs like Nketiah.

Yes we've lost our Identity, and for me it started when Famara joined. We are in between...

If we hadn't had to sell imagine how much better we'd have been with Webster, Kelly, Reid, Bryan and the likes of Afobe, DaSilva, Nagy, Smith, Kalas back fit.

LJ doesn't have the luxury of Pep and Klopp.

How does the club stance affect how a team presses or builds through the thirds? It doesn't. The way the team plays is a reflection of the Manager/Head coach.  

LJ doesn't have the luxury of Pep and Klopp.

Its irrelevant. A coach at any level in seasons will have had time to put into place the playing principles you refer to consistently in your posts. Mr Johnsons not only has had time he has had also tens of millions to do so. Luxury at a differing level. The linear approach is not present.

Yes we've lost our Identity, and for me it started when Famara joined. We are in between...

I am not sure I understand the post but if one player alters a team identity, its approach to the football, its model …There was never any big plan, future game, project or other description for the dream/vision being aimed for. 

Everything follows the one big plan. There is the point again about authentic leadership/leadership styles. 

 

[spudski]

18 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

How does the club stance affect how a team presses or builds through the thirds? It doesn't. The way the team plays is a reflection of the Manager/Head coach.  

LJ doesn't have the luxury of Pep and Klopp.

Its irrelevant. A coach at any level in seasons will have had time to put into place the playing principles you refer to consistently in your posts. Mr Johnsons not only has had time he has had also tens of millions to do so. Luxury at a differing level. The linear approach is not present.

Yes we've lost our Identity, and for me it started when Famara joined. We are in between...

I am not sure I understand the post but if one player alters a team identity, its approach to the football, its model …There was never any big plan, future game, project or other description for the dream/vision being aimed for. 

Everything follows the one big plan. There is the point again about authentic leadership/leadership styles. 

 

With a settled fit side at our level, and no injuries, it's possible to drill over time a team that will play to a method. Also take into the fact we are developing players...not all the finished article.

Take into a fact that it's obvious we are changing our playing methodology. And some square pegs in round holes to an extent.

I agree in principle to what you say, however outside actions have an effect to what we buy, sell, develop and progress. At the moment it feels like we are make do and mending. With a fully fit side, I feel we would see more of an identity appearing.

Unfortunately LJ doesn't have the luxury of buying players already developed and at the top of their game with so much experience...that can quickly adapt to methods they have already done.

To a degree we are also finding players that we chance on developing that we hope will succeed. As in the case Of Massengo and Eliasson.

Our playing ideologies to a degree are influenced by outside blueprints. You can drill players in a style...but at this level they also gave to have the qualities, that come at a price to succeed.

 

[Andy082005]

20 hours ago, RedSA said:

In last weeks post match conference LJ talked about our psychological 'performance state' and how we hadn't seemed to have found that yet.

The term performance state seemed essentially to mean being 'fired up' before a game, saying its harder to find that nowadays as the new breed of player is a bit less aggressive generally and referencing Keane's comments about the friendliness between players in the Liverpool v Man U game. 

Whilst I understand his observation of the modern players mindset it also seems a more specific problem for LJs teams as we have routinely seen us come out looking lacking in energy compared to the opposition and often waiting for events in the game to trigger a more aggressive mindset. 

What I understand from inside the club LJ is very much liked by the players, but does lack some of the authority you might get from a more old school, no nonsense manager like Chris Wilder. I appreciate LJ tries to lead in a more empathetic modern style but the pitfall of that approach is it can be easy to get comfy and complacent and I feel we suffer from that. 

Thoughts? 

I've said it before on this forum sometime ago....football players are like kids. There is a strong chance you will be a product like your upbringing 

Lee Johnson was soft as a player, and he is equally as soft as a manager. I'm not surprised his teams are powder puff. Getting players fired up is his job...it is his job to prepare players mentally and physically for when they enter that field of play. 

He just doesn't carry any authority I'm afraid. Never did as a player, doesn't as a manager. This weak streak filters into the players....and has done for the last couple of seasons. It shows in the fact that we don't have the mental attributes to see games out.

He will never have the success managers like Wilder and Warnock have had/having