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Show me the Money.


MJP3

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Stoke, Swansea and West Bromwich Albion will all have generated more money from parachute payments in 2018/19 (about £41 million) than City will have made from all their regular income sources.

Given the hard work and investment the club has made in improving income ( now in the top 10 income generators in the championship) it puts into perspective the skewed benefit parachute payments afford relegated clubs!

 

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Probably misunderstanding the numbers, but aren't they healthy because of the player sales. Let's face it, we're unlikely to hit those sales numbers again. I can't see where we could make so much money from the players we have. I can imagine the next financial report won't look so good.

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1 minute ago, Loco Rojo said:

Probably misunderstanding the numbers, but aren't they healthy because of the player sales. Let's face it, we're unlikely to hit those sales numbers again. I can't see where we could make so much money from the players we have. I can imagine the next financial report won't look so good.

Bentley, Massengo, Dasilva, Moore, Brownhill, Nagy, Morrell in a couple of seasons.  But as FFP is balanced over 3 seasons, every season doesn't have to be a bumper season.

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4 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

Probably misunderstanding the numbers, but aren't they healthy because of the player sales. Let's face it, we're unlikely to hit those sales numbers again. I can't see where we could make so much money from the players we have. I can imagine the next financial report won't look so good.

Not so tbh.  Massengo will eventually go for a huge wedge, Brownhill, also comes to mind.  

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1 minute ago, Loco Rojo said:

Probably misunderstanding the numbers, but aren't they healthy because of the player sales. Let's face it, we're unlikely to hit those sales numbers again. I can't see where we could make so much money from the players we have. I can imagine the next financial report won't look so good.

We're losing a steady £25m a year.

Big money player sales provide the occasional fillip but what the Lansdowns, and every other owner of a top half Championship club, are doing is pouring money into the club at a measured rate in the hope that we'll go up into the Premiership and start making a profit.

The club has noticeably become all round better as a consequence yet even with that investment we are being heavily outspent by other clubs' owners who are prepared to take more of a gamble.

Not that that worked out brilliantly for Derby.

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20 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

Probably misunderstanding the numbers, but aren't they healthy because of the player sales. Let's face it, we're unlikely to hit those sales numbers again. I can't see where we could make so much money from the players we have. I can imagine the next financial report won't look so good.

We sold a back up left back for 20 odd million. Who would have predicted that. 

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20 hours ago, JonDolman said:

We sold a back up left back for 20 odd million. Who would have predicted that. 

Was £15m or so I thought- the £20m or so we can't bank on until such time as the add ons are met.

It's nice and potentially significant if realised future income but that's all it is atm- was £15m, though Bristol Post said £13m- with the remaining £8m potential, notional and based on add-ons.

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20 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

We're losing a steady £25m a year.

Big money player sales provide the occasional fillip but what the Lansdowns, and every other owner of a top half Championship club, are doing is pouring money into the club at a measured rate in the hope that we'll go up into the Premiership and start making a profit.

The club has noticeably become all round better as a consequence yet even with that investment we are being heavily outspent by other clubs' owners who are prepared to take more of a gamble.

Not that that worked out brilliantly for Derby.

Unless we're stupid- and under SL we most certainly are not- we'll be fine for FFP this and next season.

Stupidity or recklessness could change the equation but I think we can spend a bit in January too- more if we trade outwards. Calculated gamble, measured risk.

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Should also add to that post, but forgot to add at the time- no edit.

Agree very much so @Eddie Hitler , all round club investment- the growth in the commercial revenue in recent years- well post redevelopment basically- has been pretty notable.  All round investment plays a role, no doubt.

Nearly trebled from 2015/16 on first glance, though I'd have to look again in more depth later.

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The takeaway part is that it'll all be worth it IF we make it to the Premier League.

By far my biggest worry is what will happen if we have a dip in form and have a less successful season than expected.

For the past few years we've experienced steady growth, and steady increases in income. The biggest test of the Lansdown and Johnson regime is what happens if we suffer a dip. Does it set us back a year or two? Can we make it up the season after? Does the board panic and start spending money we don't have?

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36 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Should also add to that post, but forgot to add at the time- no edit.

Agree very much so @Eddie Hitler , all round club investment- the growth in the commercial revenue in recent years- well post redevelopment basically- has been pretty notable.  All round investment plays a role, no doubt.

Nearly trebled from 2015/16 on first glance, though I'd have to look again in more depth later.

The club's strategy, although much derided when put into action, is now proving it's worth, especially when we see the dramatic and desperate actions some clubs have been forced to take in order to avoid breaching ffp limits.

However, the fact that relegated club's parachute payments in one season exceed City's revenue from all sources puts this into perspective and highlights the ludicrous imbalance it creates.  

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On 03/11/2019 at 13:16, The Red Planet said:

Financially we are in a very good place.

Yeah, were I £123.6m in debt and shipping a further £500k per week I'd sleep soundly at night.....

Of course we all assume that when the sad time arises that Mr Lansdown's estate might choose to write off loans they might consider 'irrecoverable'. 

They might, but that's not guaranteed and us not how it's reported under FFP, hence we exist only for as long as our generous benefactor continues to provide his extensive support. Should that cease we'd be history within minutes.

 

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13 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Yeah, were I £123.6m in debt and shipping a further £500k per week I'd sleep soundly at night.....

Of course we all assume that when the sad time arises that Mr Lansdown's estate might choose to write off loans they might consider 'irrecoverable'. 

They might, but that's not guaranteed and us not how it's reported under FFP, hence we exist only for as long as our generous benefactor continues to provide his extensive support. Should that cease we'd be history within minutes.

 

Couldn't we say the same about many clubs though?

The Championship is a great League...but a financial car crash!

Debt over what period anyway?

We're pretty well run overall- debt need not be a problem...I mean it might be but it all depends. Does it account for infrastructure spending- that all could come under debt surely? Does it account for what we were like pre 2013, at the end of which SL declared himself to be 'embarrassed'? What about the costs of Ashton Vale that never happened- would this be in there? How much of it will have been on the regular sacking of managers and at times, coaching staff- all stacks up...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/23501929

We're a very different club now- but yes we will have major debt. Like a lot of if not all of this League. There was though a period from post GJ to relegation where our expenditure on wages got higher- at least one if not both of % of turnover and in absolute terms...and somehow as our wages went up, our League position went down!

It's actually a pretty relevant listen, even today- notable contrast between then and now- where we perhaps went wrong and what we'll have learnt for the future.

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Period? The debt is as stated at the date of account, the football club owes £123.6m ( or rather more today given the level of weekly losses.) Debt isn't a problem provided one is able to finance it, as anybody with a mortgage will attest. As the bloke who lives in a car on my street will remind, debt wasn't a problem for him - until he lost his job, the roof over his head and his family ....

The football club has few fixed assets, it's accounts have no consideration for the infrastructure you mention.

And as to an acceptance: " yes we're in debt but so is everybody else..." try explaining that when creditors come knocking.

Lansdown has worked miracles in improving income streams such we were able to report a profit (sic) last year. But if we continued with those figures it would take a decade or more to return to the black and in the interim we'd need to find £35m or more per season from disposals ( who they?)

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Well I could go through it I suppose and add it up and see how many years it goes back, that P&L figure- but right now I don't have time! Agreed, debt is contingent on the ability to finance. Most of it is to SL but pretty sure we have some bank loans too- but again, these are guaranteed by Pula Sport (SL and co).

Are Ashton Gate and Failand not in that list of Fixed Assets? I'd have thought they would be, given that the Bristol City Holdings Accounts seem to be a combination of Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Limited. If you're talking about the Bristol City FC Limited then yes, there is not a lot.

Depends if JL wants to continue along the line. You're right, there's uncertainty- but I'd sooner have the Lansdown family in charge than some of the uncertain owners. Have you seen Chelsea's P&L- supposing tomorrow Abramovich fell off his boat, how do we know his family or other creditors- perhaps Mr. Putin would be keen on clawing back some of Abramovich's wealth via his assets- including but not limited to Chelsea- wouldn't want it back...it's an awful lot that their P&L is, will look back to 2003 and see later. Granted, Abramovich and Putin are pretty friendly- but if they weren't...

Oh yeah, another good example- if tomorrow there was a Revolution in UAE, I think Man City may have a few problems in due course- don't you?

He has indeed- our Profits came from Profit on Player Registrations- that'd be Flint, Kelly, Bryan and Reid largely! May have made a profit though lower, on Magnússon too, and with regards Djuric a loss but a saving on amortisation. Also though, these aren't included in statement of comprehensive income etc, save for Profit- but without them if we'd made all the signings that we did, then we'd have lost about £25m or thereabouts. Worth looking at Revenue Streams between 2015-2019 taking Players out of the equation- how much Commercial to name one has gone up!

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In truth it's all moot as I think it's for tax reasons the football club holds the bulk of the debt with the sport company the assets. Quite how these link into the mysterious Pula Sport holding I'm not sure (perhaps I should read the offer brochure they sent for my shares.) 

All the money spent on the ground doesn't necessarily translate into asset value. Who'd want to buy a stadium in Bristol, other than the fake sheikh and we know how deep his pockets are?

The primary mechanism our debts might be paid off is as and when the beneficial owners decide to accept a hugely discounted write off of loans. Hence why Lansdown wants to own the whole shebang, it's make easier for him so to do come the time and those bad debts help elsewhere....

 

 

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1 minute ago, BTRFTG said:

In truth it's all moot as I think it's for tax reasons the football club holds the bulk of the debt with the sport company the assets. Quite how these link into the mysterious Pula Sport holding I'm not sure (perhaps I should read the offer brochure they sent for my shares.) 

All the money spent on the ground doesn't necessarily translate into asset value. Who'd want to buy a stadium in Bristol, other than the fake sheikh and we know how deep his pockets are?

According to Derby even not spending money on the ground results in a huge increase in value! 

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Pride Park- Derby, £81.1m.

Villa Park- £56.7m.

Best of all- Hillsborough- £60m.

Granted, they were sold to their owners via other companies commonly owned and leased back but those prices?? In less expensive areas land value wise prices than Bristol too- hell Hillsborough built on or in the area of a floodplain from what I've read!

Some eyebrow raising transactions and prices there! ;)

All under investigation now of course.

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14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Pride Park- Derby, £81.1m.

Villa Park- £56.7m.

Best of all- Hillsborough- £60m.

Granted, they were sold to their owners via other companies commonly owned and leased back but those prices?? In less expensive areas land value wise prices than Bristol too- hell Hillsborough built on or in the area of a floodplain from what I've read!

Some eyebrow raising transactions and prices there! ;)

All under investigation now of course.

Unfortunately this is the EFL investigating panel!

see-no-evil-hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil2.jpg.63ac885082b2fffd4de6bc8d95188fb2.jpg

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2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Unfortunately this is the EFL investigating panel!

see-no-evil-hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil2.jpg.63ac885082b2fffd4de6bc8d95188fb2.jpg

???

PL are investigating Aston Villa's one though, but assuming it's some joint investigation.

I digress- I think our debt isn't so abnormal, and that we are on much the right track now- a decent chunk of our P&L will be historic or infrastructure based I am sure.

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Errrr....

The profit was made via a probably unrepeatable at least in the short term, £38m or thereabouts profit on player sales- or to give it a full title, profit on disposal of player registrations!! I suppose it is repeatable bit not this season- though we would have until May 31st 2020 to rush any deals into this period like with Kelly.

I also question whether the commercial revenue will be quite as high because bear in mind that this period included the 2 gigs in May 2019 and the WC Fan Village in summer 2018. That said, the Muse and Spice Girls gigs which fell into the accounting period which runs until 31st May 2019 were major money spinners so perhaps it'll balance out? There will be gigs in summer 2020 too, depends how they fall? Will there be some kind of Fan Zone again a'la 2020 as well as gigs? Would be ambitious...yet we're an ambitious club- and to try to realise some of these ambitions, we've got to maximise revenue from this asset whenever at all possible.

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