Changing formations

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think it's can be about movement, not so much physicality.

Lone striker doesn't have to be big, does have to be hard working- yes, decent ball skill, yes and indeed capable of providing goals and assists- yes again.

Alternatively, how about:

Brownhill Nagy Massengo Eliasson

                  Palmer

                  Weimann

Close to our 4-4-1-1 in 2017/18 with Reid and Paterson- granted we're a bit weaker defensively on the left than we were that season but Dasilva-Eliasson could link really well- again, asymmetrical.

Give Palmer license to get close to Weimann, a freer role- and have Brownhill tuck back in during some phases- Pereira at RB would help to solve one or two things tactically as well, though Hunt is justifiably first choice in that position!

We have been crying out for a game-changer.  We have one in Palmer.  We found a way to get him on the pitch earlier this season and get a performance out of him.  If we can create the right balance within 5212 / 4411 / 4312 etc, then we should do.

He’s not started more than 2 consecutive games this season.  I don’t feel you get the best out of him unless you give him a run.

[RedEyez]

When everyones fit, I like the idea of a fluid 4-2-2-2

 

              Bentley

Hunt Kalas Williams Dasilva

          Nagy  Smith

     Brownhill  Palmer 

Weimann   Diedhiou/Afobe (if/when fit)

 

[Guest]

Some players don't fit with what I believe LJ really wants from our team.

Baker and Wright should be sold and replaced with ball playing centre backs.

Diedhiou should be sold and replaced with 2 mobile strikers with better touch.

If we want to pass the ball, we need players that can do it.

To be fair the more recent transfers in the last 3 windows have fitted in with this philosophy, other than maybe Marley Watkins.

[Sixtyseconds]

"If we want to pass the ball, we need players that can do it."

Been quite a few come in who leave you thinking whats HE doing here.

Bit too many.

Its there.

Not far away City.

Its close.

Feels like there is a light guiding it.

But the light bulb keeps changing.

[cidered abroad]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We have been crying out for a game-changer.  We have one in Palmer.  We found a way to get him on the pitch earlier this season and get a performance out of him.  If we can create the right balance within 5212 / 4411 / 4312 etc, then we should do.

He’s not started more than 2 consecutive games this season.  I don’t feel you get the best out of him unless you give him a run.

For once Davefevs, I don't agree with you.

Palmer has very high skill levels but his decision making is poor. When he receives a ball in tight areas, he invariably tries to go past several opponents and in a high percentage of times, the ball is taken off him and we are then chasing an unexpected attack by other side. Eliasson and sometimes O'Dowda do the same.

A better and more lethal outcome, would be for them to play short first time passes to escape tight marking. Then when it's one against one and a defender backtracking, is the time for them to try beat the defender. Even then, there is a reasonable chance of defender winning the ball, but we aren't all left for dead in our half of the field.

Try this way and see how many more clear cut openings on goal that we get Rather than passing out wide followed by a cross in to a crowded goal. area.

We are simply too predictable and make it easy for other sides to defend.

[Three Lions]

17 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I do agree with a lot of what has been said about formations and styles of play in this thread.

I do however think that it is all over simplified “ideal world” scenario chat.

Comparisons to managers like Pep and others are unrealistic in my opinion - a) we don’t have the resources and b) these managers are in a much better position to plan well in advance and protect their ideal styles/formations in the knowledge they have the squad to back it up.

Classic example being the loss of our two best ball playing CB’s in the close season. Is that the fault of the manager? 

Webster, already mentioned, left pretty late in the window didn’t he, I suspect Mr Johnson was planning for having Webster. On this occasion an immediate replacement wasn’t found (LJ’s fault?) and the next ball playing CB was already in the squad.

So I’m sorry, but surely you have to work around what you have, player wise? Are you continually going to say to Bentley, “play it short to Bakes” and then tell Baker “Go on a charge”, no because 9/10 he’ll probably **** it up. Regardless of how well prepared the players are to do this ideal world thing. One small example. 
 

I also don’t think you can underestimate quite how much a difference losing Webster, and then Afobe and Nagy has been. Those two, especially Afobe allowed us to play the way I’m sure we’d ideally want to. 
 

I guess what I’m trying to say is, I think managing a football club, especially one like ours, is a series of compromises that effect everything you do. Player wise and tactically. I think that is backed up by the fact that, if this ‘identity’ and ‘style of play’ idea that a few suggest is so simple, was so simple, why isn’t every manager doing it, and doing it with great success? Why doesn’t every manager, like Woodgate or Sanchez or Hasenhutl, just do it like Pep or Klopp?? And why can’t you sit here tonight and tell me the identity of every team in this leagues style of football?

I also think identity goes beyond what happens on the pitch and that what goes on off it, greatly effects on it.

When I did my humble level coaching badges if I had presented my coaching philosophy and playing identity as a series of compromises the assessors would have given  it back to me and failed it. Identity is what you are on the pitch. its the nuts and bolts. @JonDolman has it. you want passing football your identity means you don't compromise or you will never achieve your aims.

why doesn't every manager do it? cant see that people are suggesting City copy Pep play 4-3-3 and have cms making hundreds of passes!!

5 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Some players don't fit with what I believe LJ really wants from our team.

Baker and Wright should be sold and replaced with ball playing centre backs.

Diedhiou should be sold and replaced with 2 mobile strikers with better touch.

If we want to pass the ball, we need players that can do it.

To be fair the more recent transfers in the last 3 windows have fitted in with this philosophy, other than maybe Marley Watkins.

bang on if City are team who want to really pass it why the Bakers and Wrights? Diedhiou struggles to link play up. Eliason crosses it and ??

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

When I did my humble level coaching badges if I had presented my coaching philosophy and playing identity as a series of compromises the assessors would have given  it back to me and failed it. Identity is what you are on the pitch. its the nuts and bolts. @JonDolman has it. you want passing football your identity means you don't compromise or you will never achieve your aims.

why doesn't every manager do it? cant see that people are suggesting City copy Pep play 4-3-3 and have cms making hundreds of passes!!

bang on if City are team who want to really pass it why the Bakers and Wrights? Diedhiou struggles to link play up. Eliason crosses it and ??

Though on a smaller scale of course, I don't see why not 4-3-3. With variants naturally but it would IMO give us more control and security- potentially even may help reduce knocks and injuries with more ability to 'rest in possession' leading to less strains on players over time, but that one is of course more tenuous.

Agree, save for I think Wright isn't the worst in the right system on the ball- Eliasson has potential too.

[Three Lions]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Though on a smaller scale of course, I don't see why not 4-3-3. With variants naturally but it would IMO give us more control and security- potentially even may help reduce knocks and injuries with more ability to 'rest in possession' leading to less strains on players over time, but that one is of course more tenuous.

Agree, save for I think Wright isn't the worst in the right system on the ball- Eliasson has potential too.

If City are team who really want to pass it then its  want players who show for it a lot more. City have players who don't have that understanding.  Eliasson has potential too? not sure but in 4-3-3 maybe. good point though.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

If City are team who really want to pass it then its  want players who show for it a lot more. City have players who don't have that understanding.  Eliasson has potential too? not sure but in 4-3-3 maybe. good point though.

Less easy to show for it and easier for opposition to negate this when you have 2 CM's vs most sides at this level- certainly decent ones- who have some version of 3 in that central midfield.

No, I don't class Palmer, O'Dowda- or before them, Paterson- as being the suitable one in that '3'...balance wise, wrong type of player for this IMO.

Eliasson with that 3 CMs behind him, or in a sort of lopsided 4-3-3 could do it yes- that extra security behind gives a bit more license for when he might lose the ball or his cross maybe snuffed out leading to a quick break.

Whereas, if- okay say we play Nagy and Brownhill as a '2'...opposition have a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-3 or I don't know a 4-2-3-1 but the central one is someone like Brownhill or maybe even Smith or Massengo, as opposed to Palmer- 2 v 2...can easily and quickly change to 2 v 3. You put a man on Nagy or you have 2 pressing him and suddenly it's Brownhill fighting fires- Palmer isn't a natural fit to drop back in and deal with that to me...suddenly you risk being pulled right out of position and either vulnerable to further positional disruption through chasing the ball and trying to regain it in a 2 v 3, or a quick break through an intense press. O'Dowda is not such a natural fit either- neither was Paterson.

Or someone steps out of defence to try to help- possible yes, but also possible to leave a large hole in behind too. To say nothing of space between the lines that can open up, can appear quite quickly in that scenario!

[Alessandro]

3 hours ago, Three Lions said:

When I did my humble level coaching badges if I had presented my coaching philosophy and playing identity as a series of compromises the assessors would have given  it back to me and failed it. Identity is what you are on the pitch. its the nuts and bolts. @JonDolman has it. you want passing football your identity means you don't compromise or you will never achieve your aims.

why doesn't every manager do it? cant see that people are suggesting City copy Pep play 4-3-3 and have cms making hundreds of passes!!

bang on if City are team who want to really pass it why the Bakers and Wrights? Diedhiou struggles to link play up. Eliason crosses it and ??

Well LJ and his team have clearly completed and passed their coaching badges so.....

My point was more that, to me, there was a lot of ideal scenario, textbook talk on this thread and that there are in reality a host of external influences on a weekly basis to the squad, thus the players on the pitch and therefore the teams ability to play in a certain style or complete tasks on the pitch. No matter how well drilled, see my Baker example. We’ve all seen enough football to know a few injuries in a squad at our level can limit the possibilities and ability on the pitch. 

I do agree however that the recruitment hasn’t always matched up with the footballing identity. That is also what I mean about compromises - I think that the clubs transfer policy means sometimes we look to buy players with certain attributes or attitudes that we can add value to, but that might not always fit the ideal style of football. This is something I believe the club should work on, although as someone has said, these past few windows have been better. 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I do agree however that the recruitment hasn’t always matched up with the footballing identity. That is also what I mean about compromises - I think that the clubs transfer policy means sometimes we look to buy players with certain attributes or attitudes that we can add value to, but that might not always fit the ideal style of football. 

Can you describe what Citys ‘identity’ is?    

I certainly don’t know and neither to some other otib posters.

[Alessandro]

18 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Can you describe what Citys ‘identity’ is?    

I certainly don’t know and neither to some other otib posters.

Well if you couldn’t get it from the horses mouth at the SR’s then I’ve got no chance! 
 

I’ve not said I could describe it, or that we have one. 
 

My point in this whole thread has been that there is a lot of textbook theory talk of identity that in my opinion over simplifies putting it in place.

Can you give me the clear footballing identities of say, 15 teams in this division?

[Cowshed]

24 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Well if you couldn’t get it from the horses mouth at the SR’s then I’ve got no chance! 
 

I’ve not said I could describe it, or that we have one. 
 

My point in this whole thread has been that there is a lot of textbook theory talk of identity that in my opinion over simplifies putting it in place.

Can you give me the clear footballing identities of say, 15 teams in this division?

The FA provide a very clear idea of what a identity is. 

If you cannot define how your own team consistently defends and attacks the team does not have an identity.

That is simple. 

 

 

 

[Robbored]

28 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Well if you couldn’t get it from the horses mouth at the SR’s then I’ve got no chance! 
I’ve not said I could describe it, or that we have one. 

My point in this whole thread has been that there is a lot of textbook theory talk of identity that in my opinion over simplifies putting it in place.

Can you give me the clear footballing identities of say, 15 teams in this division?

Quite right. When I asked LJ what our ‘identity’ was going to be he waffled a bit without actually saying anything so if he doesn’t know  then how do any of us know?

You’re also right about textbook talk of identity that thus far none of us have seen simply because we don’t have one - yet!

 

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

For once Davefevs, I don't agree with you.

Palmer has very high skill levels but his decision making is poor. When he receives a ball in tight areas, he invariably tries to go past several opponents and in a high percentage of times, the ball is taken off him and we are then chasing an unexpected attack by other side. Eliasson and sometimes O'Dowda do the same.

A better and more lethal outcome, would be for them to play short first time passes to escape tight marking. Then when it's one against one and a defender backtracking, is the time for them to try beat the defender. Even then, there is a reasonable chance of defender winning the ball, but we aren't all left for dead in our half of the field.

Try this way and see how many more clear cut openings on goal that we get Rather than passing out wide followed by a cross in to a crowded goal. area.

We are simply too predictable and make it easy for other sides to defend.

Hey, that’s fine.  I go back to the games when we got the ball to him early in the passages of play and how he then sprung our attack.  When we play slower or not through the midfield you see the other side of him.

I think if we play to his strengths you have a wonderfully creative player.  If you don’t, you have a potential passenger...although he  does work harder than many think. It’s not his best attribute.  But I’d still say he offers more off the ball than some other players vying for the creator role.

[cidered abroad]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Hey, that’s fine.  I go back to the games when we got the ball to him early in the passages of play and how he then sprung our attack.  When we play slower or not through the midfield you see the other side of him.

I think if we play to his strengths you have a wonderfully creative player.  If you don’t, you have a potential passenger...although he  does work harder than many think. It’s not his best attribute.  But I’d still say he offers more off the ball than some other players vying for the creator role.

Good points. Perhaps it's a case of telling him to pass and move in his own half. Keep the mazy runs and leaving defenders wondering what day it is, to the opposition half. 

[Guest]

Was just thinking how even though everyone would say Man U had an attacking passing identity under Fergie. When discussing an identity like we are, it could be said this was not their true identity they always stuck to.

Gary Neville has said numerous times Fergie had various ways of playing depending on opponents. I remember many European games he would have an extra body in midfield and it was mainly direct counter attacking.

Spurs are another team who have used various tactics under Poch. Route one when facing Real Madrid for example with 2 strikers in a 532. But keeping the ball and playing very attacking with attacking full backs when at home against lower opponents. 

Probably other examples too. There are teams who have changed identity depending on opponents. It seems we are not great at any one thing, so maybe not ready to strictly stick to one philosophy all season.

[spudski]

Interesting video here on building a team identity. It's not about style of play.

Worth watching all of it.

Perhaps this is why all the club went bonding yesterday. As this is part of the Identity. Making a unit...rather than a bunch of individuals.

Interesting stuff...

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Was just thinking how even though everyone would say Man U had an attacking passing identity under Fergie. When discussing an identity like we are, it could be said this was not their true identity they always stuck to.

Gary Neville has said numerous times Fergie had various ways of playing depending on opponents. I remember many European games he would have an extra body in midfield and it was mainly direct counter attacking.

Spurs are another team who have used various tactics under Poch. Route one when facing Real Madrid for example with 2 strikers in a 532. But keeping the ball and playing very attacking with attacking full backs when at home against lower opponents. 

Probably other examples too. There are teams who have changed identity depending on opponents. It seems we are not great at any one thing, so maybe not ready to strictly stick to one philosophy all season.

He used to be 4-4-2 and attack- right up to and including Europe.

This changed in 2000 or maybe 2003- it was one of those games vs Real Madrid where they conceded quite a few and went out- he realised he needed to change, in Europe at least.

Generally didn't stick with 4-4-2 in Europe in modern times- Queiroz helped this along, but this is a good point- he mixed up both styles and formations.