downendcity Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Premiership and European champions Saracens have been docked 35 points for breaching salary cap regulations. The punishment comes after an investigation into business partnerships between chairman Nigel Wray and some of the club's players. Saracens have also been fined £5.36m, with the points deduction coming into immediate effect in the Premiership. The charges relate to a failure to disclose player payments in each of the 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons. In the five seasons that Saracens have finished as Premiership champions, a 35-point deduction would have meant they would not have reached the play-offs - but would also not have been relegated. They would have finished 10th last season had the same punishment been imposed in 2018-19. Saracens, who have won two of their three Premiership matches so far this season, are entitled to seek a review of the decision by an arbitration body. The deduction will put them bottom of the table on -26 points before their trip to Gloucester on Saturday. Premiership Rugby introduced their salary cap in 1999 to ensure the financial viability of all clubs and the competition. The regulations are also designed to control inflationary pressures on clubs' costs and provide a level playing field for clubs and a competitive Premiership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Birmingham means there is now a sliding scale. Would be interested to see if there is a tariff in Rugby Union for overspend to points. The relative lack of info leaking out and opaque nature of the transactions could mean that there are landmark punishments on the way- or at the least serious consideration as to just how strong the sanctions need to be? If proven, what certain clubs have done in a number of respects (but not all) is a lot worse than Birmingham or QPR. Sends out a strong message though- well done the RFU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 So Saracens RFC docked 35 (yes, THIRTY FIVE) points for breaching the rugger salary cap. Wonder if the EFL will ever follow suit? No for Villa, Yes for Morecambe would be the likely answer. But fair play to the RFU or whoever it was, that is a proper punishment!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 About time they got done, sure it will be appealed and both deduction and fine will be lessened though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 'Premiership Rugby introduced their salary cap in 1999 to ensure the financial viability of all clubs' but fine them £5 Million? If they can afford the 5 mil then they can afford the salaries no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elhombrecito Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 It's a pretty weak punishment really. They won't get relegated, even with that points deduction. So basically their punishment for breaching the salary cap to buy their way to many trophies over the past few years, is that they'll finish in the bottom half of the league for one season, and they could still qualify for the Champions Cup for next season, if they win it this year. Not exactly a harsh punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, jj77 said: 'Premiership Rugby introduced their salary cap in 1999 to ensure the financial viability of all clubs' but fine them £5 Million? If they can afford the 5 mil then they can afford the salaries no? Salary cap to keep the dinky clubs competitive with the richer ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prinny Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 3 hours ago, elhombrecito said: It's a pretty weak punishment really. They won't get relegated, even with that points deduction. So basically their punishment for breaching the salary cap to buy their way to many trophies over the past few years, is that they'll finish in the bottom half of the league for one season, and they could still qualify for the Champions Cup for next season, if they win it this year. Not exactly a harsh punishment. Yeah. It's like docking Man City 20 odd points. Stops them winning the title, maybe puts them into the Europa league one season but ultimately does nothing. Strip them of their ill gotten titles for a start. The EFL needs to monitor finances of the clubs constantly. There's no point fining a club £5 million after they gain £200 million from cheating their way into the Prem. They need to be stopped going up. Act faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted November 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 31 minutes ago, Prinny said: Yeah. It's like docking Man City 20 odd points. Stops them winning the title, maybe puts them into the Europa league one season but ultimately does nothing. Strip them of their ill gotten titles for a start. The EFL needs to monitor finances of the clubs constantly. There's no point fining a club £5 million after they gain £200 million from cheating their way into the Prem. They need to be stopped going up. Act faster. The new ffp rules, applied for the first time this season were designed to do just that. Requiring projected accounts to cover the final year of the three year ffp cycle ( by March IIRC) should have enabled the EFL to determine if club breached ffp limits and then apply penalties within the same season. Previously the only penalty was a fine, which as you say was drop in the ocean for a promoted club. The new rules allowed points deductions, which could prevent a club being promoted if they had spent their way to promotion. Unfortunately, the EFL cocked up the new rules, leaving a loophole so that clubs like Villa, Derby and Wednesday carried out stadium sales ( effectively to themselves) , raising sufficient money "on paper" to avoid an ffp breach. There is also the suspicion that the EFL are/were not prepared to take on big clubs for fear of difficult legal action. I see that Saracens are going to take legal action but nonetheless what it does show is that the RFU have the balls to apply swingeing penalties, notwithstading the size or clout of the clubs concerned - a lesson the EFl could do well to learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 29 minutes ago, downendcity said: The new ffp rules, applied for the first time this season were designed to do just that. Requiring projected accounts to cover the final year of the three year ffp cycle ( by March IIRC) should have enabled the EFL to determine if club breached ffp limits and then apply penalties within the same season. Previously the only penalty was a fine, which as you say was drop in the ocean for a promoted club. The new rules allowed points deductions, which could prevent a club being promoted if they had spent their way to promotion. Unfortunately, the EFL cocked up the new rules, leaving a loophole so that clubs like Villa, Derby and Wednesday carried out stadium sales ( effectively to themselves) , raising sufficient money "on paper" to avoid an ffp breach. There is also the suspicion that the EFL are/were not prepared to take on big clubs for fear of difficult legal action. I see that Saracens are going to take legal action but nonetheless what it does show is that the RFU have the balls to apply swingeing penalties, notwithstading the size or clout of the clubs concerned - a lesson the EFl could do well to learn! It is now my suspicion that, some if not all of the following FFP regs were not applied correctly: The Projected Accounts which you have rightly pointed out. The Stadium Sales- yes, it appears they screwed it up by leaving that clause in. The third and most interesting one, is the fact that they are now Testing the valuations of the relevant Stadia as per the regs. That is fair enough in a way- a bona fide Grealish sale say may have changed things- Accounts can change. The one problem is that Aston Villa got promoted before this was possible! They should have Tested these in March, when there was still time to effect change. Interestingly, the Appeal for Saracens is apparently more of a "Judicial Review"- due to Arbitration etc. If the EFL had such clauses etc then it is possible perhaps that it could have blocked off legal action a bit... Possible Gibson's legal case is not just about the second one if at all, but more about 1) and 3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 8 hours ago, downendcity said: Premiership and European champions Saracens have been docked 35 points for breaching salary cap regulations. The punishment comes after an investigation into business partnerships between chairman Nigel Wray and some of the club's players. Saracens have also been fined £5.36m, with the points deduction coming into immediate effect in the Premiership. The charges relate to a failure to disclose player payments in each of the 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons. In the five seasons that Saracens have finished as Premiership champions, a 35-point deduction would have meant they would not have reached the play-offs - but would also not have been relegated. They would have finished 10th last season had the same punishment been imposed in 2018-19. Saracens, who have won two of their three Premiership matches so far this season, are entitled to seek a review of the decision by an arbitration body. The deduction will put them bottom of the table on -26 points before their trip to Gloucester on Saturday. Premiership Rugby introduced their salary cap in 1999 to ensure the financial viability of all clubs and the competition. The regulations are also designed to control inflationary pressures on clubs' costs and provide a level playing field for clubs and a competitive Premiership. Seems like a proper punishment in terms of points I suppose. Surely you want the Premier League to take a lead from Rugby Union as well as the EFL though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted November 5, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 19 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Seems like a proper punishment in terms of points I suppose. Surely you want the Premier League to take a lead from Rugby Union as well as the EFL though? I said EFL because of the dog's dinner we saw over "stadium sale gate" earlier this year. The EFL really needs to get it's act together over ffp . Im not saying there aren;t any issues with financial rules/controls in the premier league, but they don't appear to be so inept and poorly policed as in the championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityboy Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 8 hours ago, elhombrecito said: It's a pretty weak punishment really. They won't get relegated, even with that points deduction. So basically their punishment for breaching the salary cap to buy their way to many trophies over the past few years, is that they'll finish in the bottom half of the league for one season, and they could still qualify for the Champions Cup for next season, if they win it this year. Not exactly a harsh punishment. Not sure I agree with this. Alongside the heavy points deduction, they will likely need to ship out a couple of their higher earning players to bring them back into line with the cap. I think they are in real danger of relegation this year. Bristol have been rumoured to be looking at bringing Ford in from Leicester, but imo should definately start showing interest in Farrell now to see if it would be possible to prise him away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 Two interesting stories- one is a bit dated but could yet come back into play. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7474679/Rugby-news-Premiership-clubs-poised-demand-Saracens-kicked-league.html @downendcity Could we see this with FFP if Derby etc contest any charges they may receive for Stadium Sale and leaseback arrangement? At very least, I'd have the consideration in reserve of suspension of membership. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/11/06/could-gallagher-premiership-clubs-bring-legal-claims-against/ Sadly, most of this is behind a paywall but again relevant to Championship- we've seen Gibson already threatening to sue Derby and the EFL, and talk of the EFL possibly taking legal action of their own against these clubs in the future. That latter point would be mental- you could have a legal merry-go-round! Middlesbrough sue Derby OR Middlesbrough sue EFL EFL if wrongdoing found sue Derby, Reading and Sheffield Wednesday- unsure if would be directly to indemnify losses from say Middlesbrough bringing a successful claim against the EFL or a case in its own right. If cheating has occurred, what's to stop other clubs following Middlesbrough in suing ground sale clubs, the EFL or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 It should be more in line with the olympics, imo. If you are found to have broken rules to win things, then your title gets stripped and you are suspended from competition. Watch clubs suddenly understand and stick to the rules then..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 EFL aren't the only ones who should take note. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/exeter-told-strong-case-take-20958769 SL and other owners should certainly consider these matters! Also read that Wray may not be welcome at some grounds- message for Chansiri, Morris and in Aston Villa's case, largely Purslow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderMB Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 It's worth remembering the power dynamics at play here. The Premier League (and in some ways the EFL) won't come down too hard on clubs looking to bend the rules, because they want to keep them on side and ensure that they don't form a billionaires club that looks to breakaway into its own league - and ultimately its own sport if we keep a distinction between domestic and franchised football. Rugby has no such worries, and ultimately if the league wanted to punish any team harshly they can do so without repercussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 Still, clubs should look at whether there is scope to sue FFP breachers, ban their owners from the grounds or perhaps both. I remember first floating the latter at times early summer. Understand what you're saying about the Governing bodies though, but external regulation could shift the dynamics again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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