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Red Army 75

Diesel ban near AG (merged)

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6 minutes ago, Gakoe said:

I wasn’t referring to the price of diesel itself Robbo ( although the EC would have pressured governments to keep duty low) more the promotion of diesel powered vehicles in the UK and throughout Europe when the incentive should have been hybrid and electric. Everyone always knew that diesel was the dirtier fuel, up until VW’s atrocities anyway. The European Commission ignoring the dangers of NOx levels was a very happy coincidence for the German car manufacturers. 

So the big petroleum companies and giant car manufacturers sell us cancer causing monsters, then the big pharmaceutical companies sell us drugs to battle the illnesses. Oh, and the government tax us for the pleasure. 😳

The EC can't pressure fuel duties one way or the other. That's just another Daily Express myth. It doesn't get involved in "promoting" certain cars either.

After Kyoto, many Western governments- including several non-EU states - dropped duty on diesel relative to petrol, because CO2 was seen as a bigger problem than NOx. It was only subsequent scientific research that proved quite how harmful diesel was.

Most car manufacturers make diesel models, not just German ones, so British, French and Czech diesel models etc would've benefited in this period as well.

You're trying to shoehorn the 00s push for diesel into an anti-EU thing, and it just doesn't stand scrutiny. 

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40 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm going by the figures in the article above specific to Bristol.

I can't see any problem in woodburners in the Countryside, where there is open spaces to disperse.

Isn't France nearly 3 times bigger than England with roughly the same population? It seemed so unpopulated when I worked there. Even more so when taking a month off and driving around it. Endless fields and small villages.

Can understand why you would live there... it's getting unsustainable here. Too many people on a sinking island.

Just over 4 times bigger than England, although more than twice the size of the UK.

The populations (UK and France) are similar, but mainland France (66M) has only 10M more inhabitants than England.

A major difference, though, is that the French population is heavily concentrated in Paris and its banlieus (suburbs) and just a few major towns (Marseille, Lyon, Toulouse etc.), all of which have populations of less than 1M, compared to our major cities such as Manchester and Birmingham, both of which have populations in excess of 1M, with other large cities such as Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool almost as densely populated.

As you say, though, once you leave the main towns in France, you can drive for miles with just fields and small villages (and their homely restaurants).   

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19 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Just over 4 times bigger than England, although more than twice the size of the UK.

The populations (UK and France) are similar, but mainland France (66M) has only 10M more inhabitants than England.

A major difference, though, is that the French population is heavily concentrated in Paris and its banlieus (suburbs) and just a few major towns (Marseille, Lyon, Toulouse etc.), all of which have populations of less than 1M, compared to our major cities such as Manchester and Birmingham, both of which have populations in excess of 1M, with other large cities such as Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool almost as densely populated.

As you say, though, once you leave the main towns in France, you can drive for miles with just fields and small villages (and their homely restaurants).   

Idyllic, I find myself more and more drawn to France, going there several times a year now, I am determined to learn French - rather than my schoolboy efforts now and could easily retire there.

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56 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Idyllic, I find myself more and more drawn to France, going there several times a year now, I am determined to learn French - rather than my schoolboy efforts now and could easily retire there.

Hmmm.

Certainly, Normandy and, for me, Brittany, would be appealing for long stays and even retirement, but I can assure you there are drawbacks.

I may be wrong, but one area that seems to be overlooked by British tourists rushing to the southern French beaches and Spain is Auvergne - this region is certainly idyllic: still rural, and wonderful for country walks and rustic meals.

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2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

The EC can't pressure fuel duties one way or the other. That's just another Daily Express myth. It doesn't get involved in "promoting" certain cars either.

After Kyoto, many Western governments- including several non-EU states - dropped duty on diesel relative to petrol, because CO2 was seen as a bigger problem than NOx. It was only subsequent scientific research that proved quite how harmful diesel was.

Most car manufacturers make diesel models, not just German ones, so British, French and Czech diesel models etc would've benefited in this period as well.

You're trying to shoehorn the 00s push for diesel into an anti-EU thing, and it just doesn't stand scrutiny. 

I’m really not trying to ‘shoehorn’ anything, just stating fact. I genuinely can’t think of many British (1?) and French (2?) diesels of the time either and by Czech I presume you mean Skoda? After it was bought by VW. 

Anyway, here’s a couple of interesting links on the subject. Not from the daily express I’m afraid.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/22/the-rise-diesel-in-europe-impact-on-health-pollution

and if you have a spare hour 

https://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715-25-15

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13 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Just over 4 times bigger than England, although more than twice the size of the UK.

The populations (UK and France) are similar, but mainland France (66M) has only 10M more inhabitants than England.

A major difference, though, is that the French population is heavily concentrated in Paris and its banlieus (suburbs) and just a few major towns (Marseille, Lyon, Toulouse etc.), all of which have populations of less than 1M, compared to our major cities such as Manchester and Birmingham, both of which have populations in excess of 1M, with other large cities such as Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool almost as densely populated.

As you say, though, once you leave the main towns in France, you can drive for miles with just fields and small villages (and their homely restaurants).   

We went to a wedding in the Dordogne, flew into Bergerac and was amazed how quiet it was. Visited St Emillion and just loved the area. Must admit I have looked at houses on occasion, tempting .

14 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

The EC can't pressure fuel duties one way or the other. That's just another Daily Express myth. It doesn't get involved in "promoting" certain cars either.

After Kyoto, many Western governments- including several non-EU states - dropped duty on diesel relative to petrol, because CO2 was seen as a bigger problem than NOx. It was only subsequent scientific research that proved quite how harmful diesel was.

Most car manufacturers make diesel models, not just German ones, so British, French and Czech diesel models etc would've benefited in this period as well.

You're trying to shoehorn the 00s push for diesel into an anti-EU thing, and it just doesn't stand scrutiny. 

That was a brilliant bit of work by the Gov. The end result in the misplaced thinking about Diesel and petrol is that manufacturers concentrated on diesel cars. A mate is currently struggling to find a good 2nd hand, large car with a petrol engine, as he says the (his) market is flooded with diesel. 

I do think that the councils idea of bans and charges will end up penalising shops in the centre of Bristol, people won't want to pay congestion charge and parking on top of the cost of anything they buy. They will simply use out of town retailers and the shops in the Centre will find it even harder .

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3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

We went to a wedding in the Dordogne, flew into Bergerac and was amazed how quiet it was. Visited St Emillion and just loved the area. Must admit I have looked at houses on occasion, tempting .

That was a brilliant bit of work by the Gov. The end result in the misplaced thinking about Diesel and petrol is that manufacturers concentrated on diesel cars. A mate is currently struggling to find a good 2nd hand, large car with a petrol engine, as he says the (his) market is flooded with diesel. 

I do think that the councils idea of bans and charges will end up penalising shops in the centre of Bristol, people won't want to pay congestion charge and parking on top of the cost of anything they buy. They will simply use out of town retailers and the shops in the Centre will find it even harder .

Here's a point though- what I don't get.

I'm genuinely surprised that South Gloucestershire passes standard environmentally, doesn't have to introduce or look at such measures!

Been there a few times, not so much of late and it's car central- how the hell does it pass. around Cribbs all that

Let's be honest too, we'll all need to change over the coming decades- certain cities potentially taking a hit in order to comply whereas others seemingly not doing much isn't right...could certainly roll it out nationally.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

 

I do think that the councils idea of bans and charges will end up penalising shops in the centre of Bristol, people won't want to pay congestion charge and parking on top of the cost of anything they buy. They will simply use out of town retailers and the shops in the Centre will find it even harder .

Totally agree, which is why I was grateful for @PHILINFRANCE and @Maesknoll Red for clarifying that the situation in cities like Paris only involves a total ban on old diesel vehicles.

Abrupt policy changes usually bring about unfortunate side issues.

 

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4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Totally agree, which is why I was grateful for @PHILINFRANCE and @Maesknoll Red for clarifying that the situation in cities like Paris only involves a total ban on old diesel vehicles.

Abrupt policy changes usually bring about unfortunate side issues.

 

Did make me laugh when the original announcement included all diesel vehicles.

I'm guessing one of their minions had to point out that could include Busses and emergency vehicles.

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Here's a point though- what I don't get.

I'm genuinely surprised that South Gloucestershire passes standard environmentally, doesn't have to introduce or look at such measures!

Been there a few times, not so much of late and it's car central- how the hell does it pass. around Cribbs all that

Let's be honest too, we'll all need to change over the coming decades- certain cities potentially taking a hit in order to comply whereas others seemingly not doing much isn't right...could certainly roll it out nationally.

S Glos are trend setters. :noexp::facepalm:

You now can't go straight across or turn right at Hambrook lights from Frenchay. No, you have to turn left, drive to M32 roundabout go around it and drive back to the Hambrook lights. Thus traveling about 1/2 mile extra, using more fuel and producing more pollution.

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6 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

S Glos are trend setters. :noexp::facepalm:

You now can't go straight across or turn right at Hambrook lights from Frenchay. No, you have to turn left, drive to M32 roundabout go around it and drive back to the Hambrook lights. Thus traveling about 1/2 mile extra, using more fuel and producing more pollution.

Interesting, thanks.

Has this headed off Government based measures/pressure, is this still a work in progress? Perhaps pollution in South Gloucestershire has been less than I assumed but unsure about that!

Public transport infrastructure out there seems pretty modest too. Mind you, Bristol's isn't great either!

Like I say, in the medium to long term, there will I believe across the board, outside UK too, perhaps need to be significant lifestyle changes. Objectively speaking.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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15 hours ago, Gakoe said:

I’m really not trying to ‘shoehorn’ anything, just stating fact. I genuinely can’t think of many British (1?) and French (2?) diesels of the time either and by Czech I presume you mean Skoda? After it was bought by VW. 

Anyway, here’s a couple of interesting links on the subject. Not from the daily express I’m afraid.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/22/the-rise-diesel-in-europe-impact-on-health-pollution

and if you have a spare hour 

https://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715-25-15

Fair enough, but all that says, boiled down, is the EU brought in guidelines in 1998 that said its members should reduce transport-based CO2 emissions by 25% over 10 years. That's still a reasonable thing to aim for, given Climate Change.

National governments decided that the easiest way to achieve this aspiration was to place less fuel tax on diesel than on petrol vehicles, making them more attractive. Of course, there was also a switch of public transport to bio-fuelled engines and grants for research into electric vehicles, as well.

None of this was unreasonable at the time, but it all got overtaken by research and the tough economic reality that the cost to economies of phasing out diesels was going to be less than the cost to economies of potential extra cancer cases caused by inhaling diesel exhaust fumes.

It's one of those things. Like my dad buying a Betamax video in 1982.

But, as we probably agree, there is little point doing the phasing out as abruptly as BCC seem to want to do.

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5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting, thanks.

Has this headed off Government based measures/pressure, is this still a work in progress? Perhaps pollution in South Gloucestershire has been less than I assumed but unsure about that!

Public transport infrastructure out there seems pretty modest too. Mind you, Bristol's isn't great either!

Like I say, in the medium to long term, there will I believe across the board, outside UK too, perhaps need to be significant lifestyle changes. Objectively speaking.

https://www.southglos.gov.uk/transport-and-streets/streets/roads-road-works/major-roadworks/hambrook-air-quality-action/

I have my doubts that the changes will achieve much other than drivers seeking other routes to avoid the diversions.

Therefore the same amount or even more pollution put into the air, but in different places!

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How long will it be before we’re being told how bad all the Lithium battery waste is for the environment? All just seems yet another way of squeezing cash from your average working man......

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5 hours ago, Frenchay Red said:

https://www.southglos.gov.uk/transport-and-streets/streets/roads-road-works/major-roadworks/hambrook-air-quality-action/

I have my doubts that the changes will achieve much other than drivers seeking other routes to avoid the diversions.

Therefore the same amount or even more pollution put into the air, but in different places!

I use that route a lot and in my anecdotal experience it is successful in keeping traffic moving more.

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1 hour ago, Nibor said:

I use that route a lot and in my anecdotal experience it is successful in keeping traffic moving more.

Glad it works for someone! 👍😉

PITA for me 🙄

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1 hour ago, Frenchay Red said:

Glad it works for someone! 👍😉

PITA for me 🙄

It is if you want to get into hambrook for sure - but the main aim was to reduce the time spent idling I think.

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Can someone explain where the facts have come from where "300 people die of pollution in the city centre every year". Unless I have missed the news over the last decade I am sure this would/should be headline news if it has been happening every year - and I have never heard this prior to a month ago??

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On 09/11/2019 at 21:01, Peter1450 said:

How long will it be before we’re being told how bad all the Lithium battery waste is for the environment?

It's a well known problem with those lithium bateries...

image.png.bef42719d601e10bf755e3282c99ca5e.png

 

 

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On 13/11/2019 at 19:20, wood_red said:

Can someone explain where the facts have come from where "300 people die of pollution in the city centre every year". Unless I have missed the news over the last decade I am sure this would/should be headline news if it has been happening every year - and I have never heard this prior to a month ago??

People die at the BRI.

300 cases of pollution (of some kind) results in death every year after a hospital visit/stay in Bristol.

Two very different headlines, whilst using the same figures.

Btw I have no idea if that is/could be the case.

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1 hour ago, Taz said:

People die at the BRI.

300 cases of pollution (of some kind) results in death every year after a hospital visit/stay in Bristol.

Two very different headlines, whilst using the same figures.

Btw I have no idea if that is/could be the case.

Exactly.

Maybe Marvin will come out and tell us all exactly where and how this figure is/was calculated. Surely if a person dies nearly every single day from pollution in our City Centre, then there would have been major headlines regarding this over the last decade wouldn't there??? 

Call me a cynic, but unless there is some substantial evidence I am calling it complete b0llocks.

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It certainly plays a part- how big a part I don't know?

Doubt it's good for anyone that's a given- and yes it's unpopular but there are probably too many cars, vans on the road IMO.

Not a huge leap to believe the issue has got worse- saw one stat that said the number of cars and vans on the road in Bristol has trebled in a 30 year period.

There's supposed to be an underground network in Bristol (HA!) but the city just isn't built for it, well I don't think it is anyway- don't see how at all.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It certainly plays a part- how big a part I don't know?

Doubt it's good for anyone that's a given- and yes it's unpopular but there are probably too many cars, vans on the road IMO.

Not a huge leap to believe the issue has got worse- saw one stat that said the number of cars and vans on the road in Bristol has trebled in a 30 year period.

There's supposed to be an underground network in Bristol (HA!) but the city just isn't built for it IMO- don't see how at all.

I understand that, I am not saying that there are not issues either. But to me if someone wants to come out and claim hundreds of people die in your City Centre every year because of something that you are a contributor of then I would like to see some substance to that statement. There is obviously a detailed study somewhere, as that is where these figures must have came from. I mean we wouldn't have Mayor making up stuff would we.....

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36 minutes ago, wood_red said:

I understand that, I am not saying that there are not issues either. But to me if someone wants to come out and claim hundreds of people die in your City Centre every year because of something that you are a contributor of then I would like to see some substance to that statement. There is obviously a detailed study somewhere, as that is where these figures must have came from. I mean we wouldn't have Mayor making up stuff would we.....

Here you go:

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/32675/Health+Impacts+of+Air+Pollution+in+Bristol+February+2017/4df2fce5-e2fc-4c22-b5c7-5e7a5ae56701

Literally took me 15 seconds to find this on Google.

This being the relevant quote:

The new results show that around 300 deaths each year in the City of Bristol can be attributed to
exposure to both nitrogen dioxide and fine particulate matter. This represents about 8.5% of
deaths in the City of Bristol being attributable to air pollution. 

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All that report is guesswork though isn't it?? 

I thought there would be a number of actual patients in the BRI actually dying from pollution related illness from our City Centre? 

At one point it even says "there is potential for double counting that number". 

COMEAP recognises that there is a potential for double counting if the individual values for PM2.5 and nitrogen dioxide are simply added together. It advises that the risk coefficient for nitrogen dioxide is reduced by 33%, i.e. RR(10) becomes 1.0167. The revised calculation of additional deaths attributable to nitrogen dioxide therefore becomes 114, which is added to 184 deaths from PM2.5 to give total combined deaths of 297 (based on unrounded numbers). This represents 8.53% of deaths in the City of Bristol being attributable to the combined effect of exposure to nitrogen dioxide and PM2.5.

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19 minutes ago, wood_red said:

All that report is guesswork though isn't it?? 

I thought there would be a number of actual patients in the BRI actually dying from pollution related illness from our City Centre? 

At one point it even says "there is potential for double counting that number". 

COMEAP recognises that there is a potential for double counting if the individual values for PM2.5 and nitrogen dioxide are simply added together. It advises that the risk coefficient for nitrogen dioxide is reduced by 33%, i.e. RR(10) becomes 1.0167. The revised calculation of additional deaths attributable to nitrogen dioxide therefore becomes 114, which is added to 184 deaths from PM2.5 to give total combined deaths of 297 (based on unrounded numbers). This represents 8.53% of deaths in the City of Bristol being attributable to the combined effect of exposure to nitrogen dioxide and PM2.5.

You asked for the report that the figure has come from and I have provided it.

I won't even pretend that I understand half of the methodology used in that report, but it's definitely more than guesswork. 

Anyway, my main point was that the figure has not just been plucked out of the air, and is indeed the results of an in-depth study. 

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19 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

You asked for the report that the figure has come from and I have provided it.

I won't even pretend that I understand half of the methodology used in that report, but it's definitely more than guesswork. 

Anyway, my main point was that the figure has not just been plucked out of the air, and is indeed the results of an in-depth study. 

Ok then it is educated guesswork imo, there still doesn't seem to be actual deaths though? Where are the bodies buried.... Not meaning to take the pee, honestly. There just seem to be many reports/studies over the years that seem to get pulled to pieces when they are actually scrutinised - on many different topics (especially health).

I would also bet good money the people who done this report would have made a small fortune from the people who wanted to hear how bad it was, the same as the "go and buy a diesel" reports/studies type companies. I also will not try and say I understand half of it myself! Unsure why it isn't in laymans terms?

My point overall is there just doesn't seem to be any actual deaths, like lung cancer from smoking etc? It just seems to be someone has said something and it has been taken as fact with no actual evidence - that is how I see it anyway. Expect someone else could do near enough the same study and come up with completely different numbers as there aren't actual deaths to prove or disprove it.

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17 minutes ago, wood_red said:

Ok then it is educated guesswork imo, there still doesn't seem to be actual deaths though? Where are the bodies buried.... Not meaning to take the pee, honestly. There just seem to be many reports/studies over the years that seem to get pulled to pieces when they are actually scrutinised - on many different topics (especially health).

I would also bet good money the people who done this report would have made a small fortune from the people who wanted to hear how bad it was, the same as the "go and buy a diesel" reports/studies type companies. I also will not try and say I understand half of it myself! Unsure why it isn't in laymans terms?

My point overall is there just doesn't seem to be any actual deaths, like lung cancer from smoking etc? It just seems to be someone has said something and it has been taken as fact with no actual evidence - that is how I see it anyway. Expect someone else could do near enough the same study and come up with completely different numbers as there aren't actual deaths to prove or disprove it.

Again, my reply here is based on a very quick scan of the report, however my understanding is that the report is attributing cause to deaths that have already taken place, i.e. there were a certain number of deaths over the period of time, and based on a number of factors they have calculated that a proportion of these deaths were the direct result of air pollution. 

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Apologies as not directly linked to the diesel topic , but drove to wembleh last night practicality parked outside on an industrial estate £30 !!!! But kept seeing signs for low emmision zone coming up , does anybody know if i have to pay it ? Any advice greatly recieved 

Edited by bengalcub

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There is no doubt that breathing in particulates and other substances aren’t good for you.  To accurately show if it’s just being in and around Bristol, you’d have to take into account many things.  The deaths attributed to pollution, where have the people lived, worked, what was their employment, age, so many factors.  People used to have little or no H&S in places where Diesel engines ran without exhaust extraction and filtration.  If it’s older people, many of them may have smoked or passive smoked, add that to working in  workplace with a dirty atmosphere, having open coal fires and there’s your recipe.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t all have clean air to breathe, but unfortunately without some sort of societal collapse, sweeping changes aren’t an option, we need a programme that allows people to adapt and businesses to stay buoyant.

 

 

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1 hour ago, bengalcub said:

Apologies as not directly linked to the diesel topic , but drove to wembleh last night practicality parked outside on an industrial estate £30 !!!! But kept seeing signs for low emmision zone coming up , does anybody know if i have to pay it ? Any advice greatly recieved 

Depends which way you've gone in really, but I go in now and again (live just under an hour away) to do stuff like christmas shopping at the outlet. Works out cheaper and quicker than catching the dlr from Epping and then changing lines etc.

I've never paid it, but usually drive in (early) on a weekend. Did do it on a Friday at the end of October (our half term here), and haven't had anything in the post. Pretty sure it's just on the outskirts of the zone, and I mean just!

Edited by Taz
If you think you may have gone into it, you can go online and pay. It won't tell you if you have anything outstanding though.... Apparently when you do go into the zones, you can't miss the big signs on the road!!

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3 hours ago, bengalcub said:

Apologies as not directly linked to the diesel topic , but drove to wembleh last night practicality parked outside on an industrial estate £30 !!!! But kept seeing signs for low emmision zone coming up , does anybody know if i have to pay it ? Any advice greatly recieved 

I have to drive to the Excel in a few weeks, unsure where exactly to and from the zone is but if you did go inside the congestion zone you can check online with your registration if you have to pay emissions charge as well. I am assuming the £30 parking charge is because you are just outside the zone for any charges - but only guessing. My journey I have to go around the north circular, and I think I miss the charges going by an online map of the zone, but I am still unsure myself!!

 

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/congestion-charge-zone-map.pdf

 

Edited by wood_red
Just found map of congestion zone.

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