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Ratings from today


old_eastender

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My feeling was that everyone had a fairly decent game today, but decent individual performances do not always culminate in a decent team performance.

Diedhiou looked a lot better and Nagy impressed me too.

I felt a bit sorry for Palmer as he didn't seem to get a lot of the ball when he came on.

I'm sorry to say that Rodri doesn't seem to have worked out so I expect him to move on at the end of his short contract.

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5 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I can't sit there during the game and see a wing back offering no width whatsoever and keep saying it doesn't matter because he was a free transfer.

Not sure what you want or expect. He is filling in, in a less than natural position , and to be fair doing a decent job.
Today he wasn't good, along with Brownhill and others, except they are playing in their proper positions. The alternative is play a wide man in that role, that would offer no cover what so ever. He does try, but today wasn't at his best. Until JD is fit we have little or no option.

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3 hours ago, Bas's perfect hattrick said:

Where do you get it from? 

Every time I go back to the UK the first meal I have is fish & chips and a cup of curry Source poured over the top, also with mushy peas if I’m lucky. I was back six months ago for about ten days and I think I had the same meal six times.

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11 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Rodri - 4 - Looked way off the pace,

For me having this bloke fill a first team place is an absolute waste of time for us - long long way off the mark,,watched him enough now,including 'close up' for the U23's - just awful.

Would much rather we have one of our 'babbers' in there - more value to us & given the experience than continue with a pointless exercise.

Not sure of the loan arrangements' with Yate Town re; Louis Britton..??....

Would say goodbye to Rodri in the new year & place 'our own kiddy on the bench

 

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4 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Not sure what you want or expect. He is filling in, in a less than natural position , and to be fair doing a decent job.
Today he wasn't good, along with Brownhill and others, except they are playing in their proper positions. The alternative is play a wide man in that role, that would offer no cover what so ever. He does try, but today wasn't at his best. Until JD is fit we have little or no option.

I expect when playing against 10 men LJ to play someone like O'Dowda there who can attack that space on that side. He does offer cover as he's played there before against 11 men and looked comfortable defensively. If LJ was willing to play O'Dowda there against 11 men because on that day Rowe was playing so badly, then why not against 10 men.

I understand there's a slight more risk because of lack of experience in that position, but my point is you can't have a left back who doesn't get forward when we have no one else on that side of the pitch. Palmer was in field. It was Rowe's responsibility to offer width on that side and he didn't.

If we can't expect much from back up players then half our squad we should just say well they're only filling in so let's just say good things about them.

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24 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I expect when playing against 10 men LJ to play someone like O'Dowda there who can attack that space on that side. He does offer cover as he's played there before against 11 men and looked comfortable defensively. If LJ was willing to play O'Dowda there against 11 men because on that day Rowe was playing so badly, then why not against 10 men.

I understand there's a slight more risk because of lack of experience in that position, but my point is you can't have a left back who doesn't get forward when we have no one else on that side of the pitch. Palmer was in field. It was Rowe's responsibility to offer width on that side and he didn't.

If we can't expect much from back up players then half our squad we should just say well they're only filling in so let's just say good things about them.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Rowe had a good game today, but you have been pro-COD and anti-Rowe all season. The bias is showing in this thread. 

Other players are equally as or more culpable for our failure to create anything going forward than a fairly isolated wing back. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Chris_Brown said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Rowe had a good game today, but you have been pro-COD and anti-Rowe all season. The bias is showing in this thread. 

Other players are equally as or more culpable for our failure to create anything going forward than a fairly isolated wing back. 

 

I do not have any bias to any players. I just see a player who is incapable of doing what I feel we needed on that side of the pitch yesterday. I criticise other players I feel are not good enough. I didn't think Pisano was good enough for very similar reasons to Rowe.

 

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7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Today, his workrate reminded me of Paterson, always a yard further away from where he needed to be to press / tackle / intercept.  It gives an impression of graft, but today it was passive.  Way down the levels from Cardiff, where he was good.

Brownhill had a poor game today too.

For me Williams our best player today.  

Beginning to look far to much like a Paterson Mk2, but without the goals, for me. 

Hopefully, Palmer does not end up going down the totally ineffective path as well. What with Sammy, LJ is beginning to get a bit of a reputation for this type of player. Maybe Bobby was a one-off fluke. 

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14 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

I think it's because Johnson likes players with energy. Sadly, in our case energy doesn't really translate to goals

We also seem to break the first law of thermodynamics then because this energy also doesn't seem to translate into energy. 

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2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I expect when playing against 10 men LJ to play someone like O'Dowda there who can attack that space on that side. He does offer cover as he's played there before against 11 men and looked comfortable defensively. If LJ was willing to play O'Dowda there against 11 men because on that day Rowe was playing so badly, then why not against 10 men.

I understand there's a slight more risk because of lack of experience in that position, but my point is you can't have a left back who doesn't get forward when we have no one else on that side of the pitch. Palmer was in field. It was Rowe's responsibility to offer width on that side and he didn't.

If we can't expect much from back up players then half our squad we should just say well they're only filling in so let's just say good things about them.

That's a different thing altogether. You criticised Rowe for lacking in WB/FB position, I was defending him as he is filling in, in an unfamiliar position. The highlighted bit I can understand . While we had Eliasson on the right ( a bug bear of mine) the width on left wasn't exploited enough. Vs 10 men, the tactic has to be spread the play and try and make the pitch as large as possible. They maybe should have gone 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 to allow a genuine winger. But my point stands, Rowe is doing a decent job filling in. I do wonder if Jan could see Pring come back, he could be the academy player on the bench and allow Semenyo a loan run. Not sure if Pring is quite our level yet though, but clips I've seen suggest he can do a proper WB job.

Interesting to look at the heat maps from yesterday. We play predominantly down the right, and although Rowe averages around half way, Pereira played noticeably further on. Some of the heat map would have been due to Eliasson doing that winger role solely pushing on.383464428_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_16_50.png.64e55c7e224a86c62c4804b7ad70de11.png  

 

153636913_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_18_01.png.82177eff184c7c374f51ce64ed5406b4.png

 

1281956250_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_18_15.png.a4b84c1b8b9fe0723670b26546ceeea0.png

 

 

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2 hours ago, Chris_Brown said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Rowe had a good game today, but you have been pro-COD and anti-Rowe all season. The bias is showing in this thread. 

Other players are equally as or more culpable for our failure to create anything going forward than a fairly isolated wing back. 

 

He's not biased imo, more balanced around player strengths and weaknesses. Today Rowe wasn't really at the races, Nagy flatters to deceive and even Brownhill wasnt great. Kasey couldnt get into it and Nicklas did he usual flashy step overs and crossing into no-one on the end of it. 
Games of opinions. Onto a very slick and physical WBA. For me, Nagy gets a rest for Kasey 

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16 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

That's a different thing altogether. You criticised Rowe for lacking in WB/FB position, I was defending him as he is filling in, in an unfamiliar position. The highlighted bit I can understand . While we had Eliasson on the right ( a bug bear of mine) the width on left wasn't exploited enough. Vs 10 men, the tactic has to be spread the play and try and make the pitch as large as possible. They maybe should have gone 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 to allow a genuine winger. But my point stands, Rowe is doing a decent job filling in. I do wonder if Jan could see Pring come back, he could be the academy player on the bench and allow Semenyo a loan run. Not sure if Pring is quite our level yet though, but clips I've seen suggest he can do a proper WB job.

Interesting to look at the heat maps from yesterday. We play predominantly down the right, and although Rowe averages around half way, Pereira played noticeably further on. Some of the heat map would have been due to Eliasson doing that winger role solely pushing on.383464428_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_16_50.png.64e55c7e224a86c62c4804b7ad70de11.png  

 

153636913_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_18_01.png.82177eff184c7c374f51ce64ed5406b4.png

 

1281956250_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_18_15.png.a4b84c1b8b9fe0723670b26546ceeea0.png

 

 

Whether Rowe is filling in or not isn’t really relevant. He isn’t good enough as a left wing back. Not his fault really but doesn’t make it any less true. 

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16 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

That's a different thing altogether. You criticised Rowe for lacking in WB/FB position, I was defending him as he is filling in, in an unfamiliar position. The highlighted bit I can understand . While we had Eliasson on the right ( a bug bear of mine) the width on left wasn't exploited enough. Vs 10 men, the tactic has to be spread the play and try and make the pitch as large as possible. They maybe should have gone 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 to allow a genuine winger. But my point stands, Rowe is doing a decent job filling in. I do wonder if Jan could see Pring come back, he could be the academy player on the bench and allow Semenyo a loan run. Not sure if Pring is quite our level yet though, but clips I've seen suggest he can do a proper WB job.

Interesting to look at the heat maps from yesterday. We play predominantly down the right, and although Rowe averages around half way, Pereira played noticeably further on. Some of the heat map would have been due to Eliasson doing that winger role solely pushing on.383464428_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_16_50.png.64e55c7e224a86c62c4804b7ad70de11.png  

 

153636913_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_18_01.png.82177eff184c7c374f51ce64ed5406b4.png

 

1281956250_Screenshot2019-11-24at08_18_15.png.a4b84c1b8b9fe0723670b26546ceeea0.png

 

 

Agree. So you agree Rowe is incapable of doing what was needed on that side. Which is my exact point.

All our players have different strengths and weaknesses. My point is about Rowe is he was not capable of giving us the right balance on the left we needed yesterday, especially second half when they were sitting in even more, but space was on that side of the pitch that they could more or less ignore as we had no threat with Rowe not being capable of what we IMO needed on that side.

It's a strange thing that people can go on about O'Dowda not offering anything, which I disagree with, but accept that is what many on here think. Or we can say Fam has poor movement and at times a poor touch and poor passing. But we have to accept that Rowe is just filling in, is not a left back, so lets not say anything at all negative about his performance. 

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15 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Jondolman agree with your ratings, our composure in front of goal was very poor. Baker is so negative in his ball playing rarely forward but at least he did not decide to even up the player count today

This has been apparent for a while. Yes defensively strong but with ball at feet looks awkward and when it comes to passing forward he struggles. Normally just ends in a chip/punt forward.

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18 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Agree. So you agree Rowe is incapable of doing what was needed on that side.

No, but yes. I think Rowe has done a brilliant job filling in for JD. He works hard but would probably find it easier in a FB role rather than have the added expectation a WB role brings. So I think you are being unfair to criticise too much. The need for width I agree with, maybe COD wide left,NE right and Palmer just off of Fam might have been the way to go. That is more a problem that LJ should have seen/sorted rather than Rowe's failings. 
If Rowe had been brought in as a LB/LWB I would probably be a little more critical . It's similar to when Wright was playing RB, he was always just filling in, and I think you have to make allowances for short comings. Unless they make a complete bollix of it, which (up to now) Rowe hasn't.
I think, at home at least , we could play 4 at the back. Specially as Nagy is back to play that deeper role. 

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16 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

No, but yes. I think Rowe has done a brilliant job filling in for JD. He works hard but would probably find it easier in a FB role rather than have the added expectation a WB role brings. So I think you are being unfair to criticise too much. The need for width I agree with, maybe COD wide left,NE right and Palmer just off of Fam might have been the way to go. That is more a problem that LJ should have seen/sorted rather than Rowe's failings. 
If Rowe had been brought in as a LB/LWB I would probably be a little more critical . It's similar to when Wright was playing RB, he was always just filling in, and I think you have to make allowances for short comings. Unless they make a complete bollix of it, which (up to now) Rowe hasn't.
I think, at home at least , we could play 4 at the back. Specially as Nagy is back to play that deeper role. 

I'm just pointing out what Rowe can't do, which we were missing on that side yesterday. I think his number one role for us was always going to be left back/ left wing back. We have Nagy, Brownhill, Massengo, Korey, even O'Dowda as a central midfielders, so I am surprised if Rowe was brought in as a central midfielder when we had no cover left backs for Dasilva. It seemed to be the plan that Rowe was our back up left back to me more than anything else.

Rowe may have done better than some expected, considering he couldn't get in Doncaster side a lot last season. But I don't think we should just not say anything about him when he has a bad game, or doesn't offer what is needed on that side.

I think with Wright the system seemed to let us get away with it, and Magnússon too on the other side. Same with Pisano when we went on a winning run which was mainly counter attacking football. But all of them I would say were not good enough when looking at what we ideally needed in those positions. 

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2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I'm just pointing out what Rowe can't do, which we were missing on that side yesterday. I think his number one role for us was always going to be left back/ left wing back. We have Nagy, Brownhill, Massengo, Korey, even O'Dowda as a central midfielders, so I am surprised if Rowe was brought in as a central midfielder when we had no cover left backs for Dasilva. It seemed to be the plan that Rowe was our back up left back to me more than anything else.

Rowe may have done better than some expected, considering he couldn't get in Doncaster side a lot last season. But I don't think we should just not say anything about him when he has a bad game, or doesn't offer what is needed on that side.

I think with Wright the system seemed to let us get away with it, and Magnússon too on the other side. Same with Pisano when we went on a winning run which was mainly counter attacking football. But all of them I would say were not good enough when looking at what we ideally needed in those positions. 

I think the reason BW got away with it, was he was playing behind Eliasson who doesn't defend. So a sitting FB doesn't need to do much more than defend and give the ball to the winger in front . JD should make a big difference once he's back, naturally attack minded, so will add that missing width. The other side Pereira is improving, and while we pick up points and look solid I don't see a system change soon.

 

1 hour ago, RedDave said:

Whether Rowe is filling in or not isn’t really relevant. He isn’t good enough as a left wing back. Not his fault really but doesn’t make it any less true. 

So what are the options? Play a winger there? COD could do a job, and would get forward better, but the first defensive mistake, or gap left to gift a goal and he would be murdered as he was only filling in. It is what it is, the only way it changes is a system change to a 4 at the back. The current set up has been successful away from home, if not pretty, so until JD is back that's what we have. Rowe has his limitations, but anyone else would have too, how many times has he been criticised for poor defending? Can't remember many, in fact the only moan yesterday was missing a header in the positions box.

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10 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I think the reason BW got away with it, was he was playing behind Eliasson who doesn't defend. So a sitting FB doesn't need to do much more than defend and give the ball to the winger in front . JD should make a big difference once he's back, naturally attack minded, so will add that missing width. The other side Pereira is improving, and while we pick up points and look solid I don't see a system change soon.

 

So what are the options? Play a winger there? COD could do a job, and would get forward better, but the first defensive mistake, or gap left to gift a goal and he would be murdered as he was only filling in. It is what it is, the only way it changes is a system change to a 4 at the back. The current set up has been successful away from home, if not pretty, so until JD is back that's what we have. Rowe has his limitations, but anyone else would have too, how many times has he been criticised for poor defending? Can't remember many, in fact the only moan yesterday was missing a header in the positions box.

The flick on for Grabban to miss the sitter was hardly the best bit of defending from Rowe!

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55 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I think the reason BW got away with it, was he was playing behind Eliasson who doesn't defend. So a sitting FB doesn't need to do much more than defend and give the ball to the winger in front . JD should make a big difference once he's back, naturally attack minded, so will add that missing width. The other side Pereira is improving, and while we pick up points and look solid I don't see a system change soon.

 

So what are the options? Play a winger there? COD could do a job, and would get forward better, but the first defensive mistake, or gap left to gift a goal and he would be murdered as he was only filling in. It is what it is, the only way it changes is a system change to a 4 at the back. The current set up has been successful away from home, if not pretty, so until JD is back that's what we have. Rowe has his limitations, but anyone else would have too, how many times has he been criticised for poor defending? Can't remember many, in fact the only moan yesterday was missing a header in the positions box.

He’s probably the only option. Still isn’t good enough though. 

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2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Interesting to look at the heat maps from yesterday. We play predominantly down the right,

Not predominantly, we ONLY played down the right in their half. We also only ever played it out through Williams and once Elliasson came on (offering so, so much more that the woeful CoD,) we looked to play everything through him. On one or two occasions when Rowe was given the ball in our own half there wasn't a City player within 40 yards of him. Either a speculative ball or he was muscled out by multiple players. He didn't have that bad a game, simply had sod all support from his teammates. Even for the balls we did get over it was slow and ponderous. Loads of Arsenalesque neat triangular touches and tricks but NEVER an early, first time ball, always allowing their defence to organise. When gifted dead ball we play it short and 8 touches later end up back in the same position only this time with the defender 2 yards not 10 constraining cross options . With no variation it was pretty easy for Forest to defend against. Manager has to take the blame for not looking to vary it. We supposedly played with an extra man; you'd never have noticed.

I remain perplexed how Weimann has a relationship with the fans where he consistently rates higher than he deserves. Yes he runs, and flaps and puts effort in, but few seem to spot how frequently he gives the ball away (often needlessly) and striker he ain't. He may be as good as we have upfront and that itself tells yesterday's story 

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7 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Not predominantly, we ONLY played down the right in their half. We also only ever played it out through Williams and once Elliasson came on (offering so, so much more that the woeful CoD,) we looked to play everything through him. On one or two occasions when Rowe was given the ball in our own half there wasn't a City player within 40 yards of him. Either a speculative ball or he was muscled out by multiple players. He didn't have that bad a game, simply had sod all support from his teammates. Even for the balls we did get over it was slow and ponderous. Loads of Arsenalesque neat triangular touches and tricks but NEVER an early, first time ball, always allowing their defence to organise. When gifted dead ball we play it short and 8 touches later end up back in the same position only this time with the defender 2 yards not 10 constraining cross options . With no variation it was pretty easy for Forest to defend against. Manager has to take the blame for not looking to vary it. We supposedly played with an extra man; you'd never have noticed.

I remain perplexed how Weimann has a relationship with the fans where he consistently rates higher than he deserves. Yes he runs, and flaps and puts effort in, but few seem to spot how frequently he gives the ball away (often needlessly) and striker he ain't. He may be as good as we have upfront and that itself tells yesterday's story 

Agree everything comes down our right. Been saying it after most games this season.

And agree I don't get why fans rate Weimann as highly as they do. He runs loads and has a bit of pace. But does not have a trick on the ball, lacks composure, has a pretty weak shot, doesn't win much in the air and not very strong. He has the odd great game. I do like him, but I don't see this amazing striker it would seem some think he is. 

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3 hours ago, Brooko said:

He's not biased imo, more balanced around player strengths and weaknesses. Today Rowe wasn't really at the races, Nagy flatters to deceive and even Brownhill wasnt great. Kasey couldnt get into it and Nicklas did he usual flashy step overs and crossing into no-one on the end of it. 
Games of opinions. Onto a very slick and physical WBA. For me, Nagy gets a rest for Kasey 

Wow

This really shows a lack of understanding of the game. You can’t just have players who attack in a team. Nagy is always available for the ball which is essential for the CBs And he keeps everything ticking in the middle of the park. He’s also there to break down the oppositions attacks. 

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A lot to cover, and I’ve moved from iPhone to iPad, so lost the posts I was gonna quote.

@1960maaan, @BTRFTG and @JonDolman were the posts I was gonna quote.  Might’ve been one or two others too, so I’m responding to lots of you.

From my perspective, we played down the right once they went down to 10-men.  Forget whether Rowe was effective or not, we never played the ball down that side to see whether he could.  Who was the midfielder in front of him?  Palmer, who isn’t a LW/LM (that’s not a criticism of Palmer either).  Every ball got cycled right.  In fact Baker, with more tempo passes to Rowe in second half, enabled us to go over the half way line quicker, at which point Rowe then goes square, and we cycle right or back and right and forward.  It’s a standard pattern of played enabled by Baker getting it to Rowe quickly.  The ball eventually ends up at Eliasson....usually in the final third.  That’s good implementation of that tactic.

However, when the ball goes down the right (in the second half), it NEVER cycles left.

Read my pre-match thread, in particular the copy and paste from the Forest fan.  Forest wanted us to play on one side of the pitch, and with 10 men they dragged us into doing it, making them have to cover less ground.  Eliasson might’ve looked dangerous with his “oohs and aahs” crosses, but against 10 men you have to make the pitch as wide as possible (you mentioned this @1960maaan....we made it smaller.  We played into Forest’s hands.  It got the crowd going, but we didn’t actually create the space to create the 1on1s or overloads, because we predictably went down the right each time.  We aren’t Man City, but look how many times they sometimes go from side to side, probing for that opportunity to expose.  We went right side, cross it, end of move.  That’s not a criticism of Eliasson either.

So, then ask yourself why we can play down the right but not the left?  Forest’s press is capable of working either side as we saw first half when 11v11.  Look further forward.  I’m gonna generalise here, but one of our two strikers moves around to either receive the ball short or down the sides or create space for his teammates by coming short or going long, and the other doesn't.  The first one is Weimann the second one is Diedhiou.  Now the real quiz question....who plays right as who plays left?

Weimann - goes central, right central and right, goes long, goes short.  Makes runs to receive the ball, makes runs to drag his marker away from where he wants the ball to go.

Diedhiou - stays central, occasionally slightly left of centre, when Weimann is central.  Never runs a channel.  Only ever offers a pass into feet option (I’m not referring to aerial challenges from keeper kicks).  Yesterday he did that reasonably well.  But it was so one dimensional.

Now go back and think why Rowe and Palmer didn’t see the ball in the final third in the last 25 minutes.  Because they get the ball 40-50 yards from goal, and have no progressive option in front of them down the left channel.  It has to come right.  Rowe, as he’s proved many times, wants to get forward, he’s incredibly keen to hit the box (twice yesterday, once when Baker took one off his head and another when he missed a v.good chance).  Why was O’Dowda’s only moment of excellence yesterday (from a LCM position) something he created himself?

Lets go back further, to Barnsley and Cardiff.  Where did our first goal at Oakwell come from?  Watkins running the left channel and getting fouled as he broke into the box.  Where did our goal come from at Cardiff.  A good bit of pass and move down the left side between O’Dowda, Rowe and Palmer, before finding Brownhill.  In fact Baker makes a run beyond Palmer to drag someone away to give Palmer space to get it into feet.  In fact Rowe got forward several v Cardiff because we had movement that created space for us to cycle left.  We didn’t always get it to him, or when we did he didn’t always create (one O’Dowda shot and a couple of blocked crosses), but it was a more balanced pitch.

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The game isn’t rocket science, but it’s not a simple 11 individuals v 11 individuals and if you win 6 battles you’re gonna win.  It’s more intricate than that, as they are lots of combinations expanding the permutations.  You can’t just rate player performance on their actions alone. And sometimes a player having an average game might be tactical for the greater good of the team or because others are doing their bit.

I’m not making Diedhiou my scapegoat, but I do feel his decent goals record hides a level of performance and lack of team cohesiveness, that impact on others.  So next time we watch Rowe or O’Dowda trying to attack down the left just have a look up-top and see what Fam is doing.  I think he could do a lot more...and if he did he would be a much bigger handful than he is, and I think we might be more attractive to watch.

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Not to contradict your last paragraph Dave but yesterday I though Fam had his best game in ages. He was clearly ‘up’ for it and covered acres of ground.

He cleared one off the line, created problems  the Forest defenders all game. He just doesn’t have quick feet which is surprisingly unusual in a professional footballer.......

Ive watched the first half of the Boro game against Hull and Assambalonga could be showing Fam what more Fam could do....

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