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My head's spinning...(Merged)


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Tactics, formation, selection are all over the place, and the players appear confused.

We've got a number of quality players but none are individually playing to their potential and the team as a whole all too often looks disjointed and poor.

So it has to come down to the coach I'm afraid.

The biggest problem for the club is not league position ( it's solid and we're very unlikely to be relegated) but the increasing disaffection and apathy of the fans who are neither getting any entertainment or enjoyment from watching frustrating and boring displays.

It's really hard work watching City these days even if we win.

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24 minutes ago, spudski said:

...so frustrated with this City side this season.

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch.

What is the game plan?

It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it.

Defensively..I can see it.

Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. 

It's so frustrating to watch.

We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. Literally a bunch of individuals using their best attributes.

What the hell are we doing in training?

I get the injuries, and I get players have below par individual performances...but take that into account, the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

I've not witnessed us looking so tactically inept offensively for a long time.

Frustrating...as we know we have some good players and LJ can get it right.

But right now... it's amateur.

You posts have a exasperated theme.

Change is a feature of Lee Johnson in charge. The highlighted can be a consequence of his change. He is now changing around the foundation (its shape and intent) as well as the offense.

What are they doing in training? Too much. Systems are not imbedded over a session, its months, some think its months in the long term. 

A team is reflection of the ideas/ideals of its coach. This coach has lots of them. The (Championship) players are not equipped technically for the multiple ideas. The outcome of all this change should not be head spinning because its logical.

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cowshed
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One positive of this 'group' is they really try hard. They might make mistakes but they don't shirk their responsibility. I bet the stats show we work as hard as any other team. 

But West Brom didn't need to any of the frantic chasing and last ditch defending because they were just very organised and played it simple.

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29 minutes ago, spudski said:

...so frustrated with this City side this season.

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch.

What is the game plan?

It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it.

Defensively..I can see it.

Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. 

It's so frustrating to watch.

We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. Literally a bunch of individuals using their best attributes.

What the hell are we doing in training?

I get the injuries, and I get players have below par individual performances...but take that into account, the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

I've not witnessed us looking so tactically inept offensively for a long time.

Frustrating...as we know we have some good players and LJ can get it right.

But right now... it's amateur.

For me, what makes it so frustrating is that we get the spill from LJ that we have to play with an identity! And then we seemingly don’t play our best players in the hope of throwing the opposition off their game & making them change their tactics, which they don’t do!

All season we have needed to play our best team available & have a go at the opposition but instead we set-up every game like we are the away team & hope that we are still in with a chance at about the 70 minute mark & then we might just sneak a goal!

We don’t have an ‘identity’ because we don’t know how to play properly, stop worrying about the opposition & start worrying about our own performance, we seemingly have a better squad than that of our Caraboa Cup run where we pressed everyone & yet now we seemingly don’t know our ass from our elbow!! And even a 50 goal a season striker wouldn’t solve this problem right now!

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To start, I've never played football outside of the playground so I know very little about the physical or mental stresses on a professional footballer. Being professional footballers they should in theory play through any conditions in any match.

This is no excuse, (well maybe), for last nights performance. What effect does it have on players when they pick up two yellow cards for relatively soft fouls and their opponents seemingly go unpunished? Similarly the effect of having a goal ruled offside for them and then two goals for the opposition, equally offside are allowed to stand? 

I know I'm treading a well worn path here but for any of you who do or have played serious football please help me out? I wonder how LJ addresses this with the players after a match.

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I feel a major part of the problem is that we still have a hangover of players who don't really fit in with how ( I think) we are seeking to play and it exposes us when we need to play them. Baker and Wright are both very solid Championship defenders but neither are comfortable on the ball and, when Kalas and Moore are missing, 3 at the back with no ball playing defender has a massive impact on our ability to control a game.

Meanwhile Diedhiou is a hard worker but I feel he works better in teams that play on the front foot rather than the counter attacking approach we seem to want to take.

And then Palmer and Eliasson are our two most creative players but neither fit the formation.

LJ has a lot of credit in the bank but I feel at the moment the way he wants us to play isn't the way that gets the best our of the players that he actually has available and that is a real problem.

Nobody wants constant chopping and changing and there has to be a consistent plan to work towards but the formation and approach has to also reflect the players we have available and, particularly at the moment, I just don't think it does. 

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16 minutes ago, Midred said:

To start, I've never played football outside of the playground so I know very little about the physical or mental stresses on a professional footballer. Being professional footballers they should in theory play through any conditions in any match.

This is no excuse, (well maybe), for last nights performance. What effect does it have on players when they pick up two yellow cards for relatively soft fouls and their opponents seemingly go unpunished? Similarly the effect of having a goal ruled offside for them and then two goals for the opposition, equally offside are allowed to stand

I know I'm treading a well worn path here but for any of you who do or have played serious football please help me out? I wonder how LJ addresses this with the players after a match.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

Haven't read through all the threads but Williams- saw it last night on Quest- but definitely off? Would have to watch again of course as kind of missed it in real time.

LJ also queries the free kick for their 2nd.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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46 minutes ago, spudski said:

...so frustrated with this City side this season.

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch.

What is the game plan?

It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it.

Defensively..I can see it.

Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. 

It's so frustrating to watch.

We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. Literally a bunch of individuals using their best attributes.

What the hell are we doing in training?

I get the injuries, and I get players have below par individual performances...but take that into account, the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

I've not witnessed us looking so tactically inept offensively for a long time.

Frustrating...as we know we have some good players and LJ can get it right.

But right now... it's amateur.

It’s not often I disagree with you Spudski but I assume you don’t have the same FA coaches badges as LJ and his assistants have.

I respect your knowledge into the tactical side of the game but essentially you are the same as the rest of us - an amateur.

Watching the Forest match last Saturday I was frustrated by the lack of attacking flair. No player running at the defence trying to create havoc. Pedestrian play that reminded of one our previous managers. The players looked shackled and unwilling to break out and play their own game. It  left me wondering just what instructions LJ gives them............

 

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3 hours ago, swanker said:

Yeah, keep selling our most valuable players and not having a decent striker for over a year. 

But we replaced them with just as good players, if not better

Apart from Afobe we haven't had a decent number 9 striker for years - the thing that concerns me we have said the same thing going into the January transfer window for many a year now 

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30 minutes ago, Midred said:

To start, I've never played football outside of the playground so I know very little about the physical or mental stresses on a professional footballer. Being professional footballers they should in theory play through any conditions in any match.

This is no excuse, (well maybe), for last nights performance. What effect does it have on players when they pick up two yellow cards for relatively soft fouls and their opponents seemingly go unpunished? Similarly the effect of having a goal ruled offside for them and then two goals for the opposition, equally offside are allowed to stand? 

I know I'm treading a well worn path here but for any of you who do or have played serious football please help me out? I wonder how LJ addresses this with the players after a match.

I will give it a brief go.

In theory players won't play 100% through any conditions. Humans are not wired like that. Working towards that is the dream where the tactical, technical, physical and psychological all work in unison. The very best are still flawed - Think about the stars at the zenith of the game.   

Sports science and sports psychology leans towards frequently to not address things after a match, its too raw for lots of reflection. The post match starts today.

Techniques like 80/20 can be used.  Address 20% of the negatives, not 80%. Remember to focus on the positives that did exist. This is proven to be more effective. Common sense really v its was all crap, you, you and even the ref was crap. 

In regards to your second paragraph. These are uncontrollables. A lot of work is done with pros to focus on what they can control. Becoming emotional with what you do not control obviously affects performance. We know we will have automatic negative thoughts (ants) by focussing on what we can control v what we cannot those ants can be governed. Players can use self talk to control emotion, they can be assisted to do so -  City do use psychologists to assist and support players, and the Manager/Coaches. 

In Lee talk we go again.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cowshed
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42 minutes ago, mozo said:

One positive of this 'group' is they really try hard. They might make mistakes but they don't shirk their responsibility. I bet the stats show we work as hard as any other team. 

But West Brom didn't need to any of the frantic chasing and last ditch defending because they were just very organised and played it simple.

There you have said it, football IS a simple game at heart we are just making it too complicated. Get back to the basics and we have the players to do well I'm convinced of that.

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14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not often I disagree with you Spudski but I assume you don’t have the same FA coaches badges as LJ and his assistants have.

I respect your knowledge into the tactical side of the game but essentially you are the same as the rest of us - an amateur.

Watching the Forest match last Saturday I was frustrated by the lack of attacking flair. No player running at the defence trying to create havoc. Pedestrian play that reminded of one our previous managers. The players looked shackled and unwilling to break out and play their own game. It  left me wondering just what instructions LJ gives them............

 

Sounds like you agree with Spudski to me, he said basically the same as you have just said.

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15 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not often I disagree with you Spudski but I assume you don’t have the same FA coaches badges as LJ and his assistants have.

I respect your knowledge into the tactical side of the game but essentially you are the same as the rest of us - an amateur.

Watching the Forest match last Saturday I was frustrated by the lack of attacking flair. No player running at the defence trying to create havoc. Pedestrian play that reminded of one our previous managers. The players looked shackled and unwilling to break out and play their own game. It  left me wondering just what instructions LJ gives them............

 

They have coaching badges? It's amazing what you can get on eBay these days

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

You posts have a exasperated theme.

Change is a feature of Lee Johnson in charge. The highlighted can be a consequence of his change. He is now changing around the foundation (its shape and intent) as well as the offense.

What are they doing in training? Too much. Systems are not imbedded over a session, its months, some think its months in the long term. 

A team is reflection of the ideas/ideals of its coach. This coach has lots of them. The (Championship) players are not equipped technically for the multiple ideas. The outcome of all this change should not be head spinning because its logical.

 

Yep..............Too be fair he has only been here 3 years, another 3, and we might get a pattern of play introduced?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by maxjak
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23 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not often I disagree with you Spudski but I assume you don’t have the same FA coaches badges as LJ and his assistants have.

I respect your knowledge into the tactical side of the game but essentially you are the same as the rest of us - an amateur.

Watching the Forest match last Saturday I was frustrated by the lack of attacking flair. No player running at the defence trying to create havoc. Pedestrian play that reminded of one our previous managers. The players looked shackled and unwilling to break out and play their own game. It  left me wondering just what instructions LJ gives them............

 

You've not disagreed with me RR.

You've insinuated pretty much everything I've said.

Of course I don't have the coaching badges and experience...just basic FA badges at entry level.

However...you don't need all the experience and badges at Pro level to see with some experience what's going on.

I try to speak in layman terms and not use terminology straight out of the manuals. 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I am genuinely interested to know what the likes of @spudski and @Cowshed (who clearly know their stuff) would do with the team (in terms of tactics/squad selection) between now and January

When I get an hour I'll try fella.

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38 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I feel a major part of the problem is that we still have a hangover of players who don't really fit in with how ( I think) we are seeking to play and it exposes us when we need to play them. Baker and Wright are both very solid Championship defenders but neither are comfortable on the ball and, when Kalas and Moore are missing, 3 at the back with no ball playing defender has a massive impact on our ability to control a game.

Meanwhile Diedhiou is a hard worker but I feel he works better in teams that play on the front foot rather than the counter attacking approach we seem to want to take.

And then Palmer and Eliasson are our two most creative players but neither fit the formation.

LJ has a lot of credit in the bank but I feel at the moment the way he wants us to play isn't the way that gets the best our of the players that he actually has available and that is a real problem.

Nobody wants constant chopping and changing and there has to be a consistent plan to work towards but the formation and approach has to also reflect the players we have available and, particularly at the moment, I just don't think it does. 

LJ bought these players so can't say they don't suit he wants us to play?

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For whats its worth, my observasion is we simply do not attack the wide areas even when there is an oportunity to do so. Its keep ball football. Square football that inevitably results in the hoof on numerous occasions. Getting behind the defence is the most effective form of attack. We simply shy away From this tactic far to often, playing safe bores me senceless.

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35 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not often I disagree with you Spudski but I assume you don’t have the same FA coaches badges as LJ and his assistants have.

Anybody can get coaching badges and it doesn't mean those who've formalised a qualification are any more skilled than those who've never bothered. By your argument ex players and pundits without badges know less of the game than jobbing pros who went into management as they had time to kill when their careers stalled.

What I do know is no amount of drones, grass measuring equipment or player therapy sessions will ever compensate for a manager who thinks the future lies in players such as Watkins, CoD, Paterson or Adelakun (or all those other nomarks who came, failed and went without leaving trace.) Or thinking that prolific goal-machine Weimann in isolation, wide, up top will pose any type of threat.

Perhaps Johnson skipped the 'talent recognition' and 'offensive theory' modules.

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I understand and concur the loss of AFOBE shafted us as a threat offensively . It’s the same story. Always few attempts on goal. Even the Cardiff game we won (deep joy) did we actually look good ? No.  This season is carrying on from last season in that attacking we are not that good. We have some decent players and really solid spine, but I do not see this identity that he harps on about. It’s a constantly changing situation . I have no doubt Mark Ashton is earning his corn looking towards January 

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10 minutes ago, Red Rag said:

For whats its worth, my observasion is we simply do not attack the wide areas even when there is an oportunity to do so. Its keep ball football. Square football that inevitably results in the hoof on numerous occasions. Getting behind the defence is the most effective form of attack. We simply shy away From this tactic far to often, playing safe bores me senceless.

The wide areas is an interesting one- I'm not so sure.

Up vs a side with fairly packed and compact central area, it can take a lot of effort to get through- actually saw a stat vs Nottingham Forest that said we had over 30 crosses! It isn't necessarily so effective in the modern game but can depend of course.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

...so frustrated with this City side this season.

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch.

What is the game plan?

It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it.

Defensively..I can see it.

Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. 

It's so frustrating to watch.

We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. Literally a bunch of individuals using their best attributes.

What the hell are we doing in training?

I get the injuries, and I get players have below par individual performances...but take that into account, the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

I've not witnessed us looking so tactically inept offensively for a long time.

Frustrating...as we know we have some good players and LJ can get it right.

But right now... it's amateur.

I 100% agree. And I knew within 4 seconds last night that it was going to be crap. We kick off, ball ends up at the back with Nathan Baker and under no pressure he launches it up the pitch......to nobody. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Red 90 said:

LJ bought these players so can't say they don't suit he wants us to play?

This is true but, in fairness, it isn't unreasonable that the type of players we both can and want to attract might change over time.  Baker, Wright and Diedhiou were bought at a time when the goal was shoring up a team struggling in the Championship and looking to solidify towards mid-table. It isn't that unreasonable that the players you want and need in that situation are no longer the same players you want when you are established and looking to push on for promotion.But nonetheless you do need to factor in the type of players you are picking when it comes to team selection. 

Where I find it a lot harder to justify is the fact we've purchased Palmer and, to an extent, Szmodics without a clear plan of how to use them. I accept Palmer's season has been affected by Afobe's injury but, whilst I know strikers are hard to find, it's got to be a failure of recruitment to have a playing style and signing strategy that is based on one particular type of striker and only have one striker that suits that system. 

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