5pm Tonight - Wonderful in Hindsight!!!

[Davefevs]

Got a feeling today’s game is a bit of a watershed for our season.  It shouldn’t be, just feels that way after Wednesday.

I was gonna do a poll, along the lines of - ‘nail your colours to the mast’ - based on your thoughts at 2pm when you see today’s line-up with options like:

• happy with eleven - we are gonna win
• unhappy with eleven - we are gonna lose
• meh with eleven - we are gonna draw
• etc

But it didn’t quite fit with what I was trying to get out of it.  I guess I go back to that game at Newcastle when most people went ballistic when they saw LJ start Wilbs and Vyner, but we drew 2-2 and played decently, even if we lost a 2-0 lead.

I rarely criticise the starting eleven.  It might not be what I would choose but as @Robbored reminds us, we don’t see what goes on at the training ground, and for a good while now, I see the logic in his selections.  Wednesday night for example, the 5311 kept the ball well in a first half spell, but ultimately individual mistakes let us down....but of course post game it was all “effin 5 at the back, blah, blah, blah”.  I don’t think the line-up was the problem, more too many individuals didn’t play well, lost their battles, both first half 5311 and second half 442.

So I was keen to understand how much our posters change their view pre and post-game.  Is the Match Day Thread full of turncoats?  Or are the doom-mongerers, always doom and gloom, whilst the Happy Clappers always over-positive?  Or is it the sit-on-the-fence brigade just sat there waiting to see what happens then go full-blast plus or minus depending on what’s just happened.  In some respects some of our players help our posters with that, e.g. Diedhiou - Cant trap a bag of cement, but also scores a great diving header v Reading, Hunt - rubbish full-back, oh, there’s another assist.  Those aren’t my views by the way!

Tonight at 5pm we will be seeing comments that could go either way.

Tactical Genius, he’s taking us to Europe vs Clueless, got to go.

I told you 433/<insert formation> was what we needed vs it’s obvious why he’s not gone 433 before because we haven’t got the players 

Eliasson must start vs Eliasson never plays well when he starts, he’s an impact player only.

So long winded pre-amble.

What are your yin and yang hindsight comments gonna be.  Here’s mine:

Korey Smith - “he’s a legend, shows what we’ve been missing” versus “knew he couldn’t start twice in quick succession”

[Unan]

Nagy: He's been in poor form, he should have been dropped / We know he's quality, that's why we needed to stick with him 

Massengo: Quality, wonderkid, knew he should've started / He's being rested for a reason, with Nagy & Smith back, why did he start? Should've came on in the 60th minute 

[SedRA]

Yeah, there’s always a lot of posters who ‘could’ve told you we’d get beat with that setup/lineup’ after the match. They don’t seem to say it before though...

[marmite]

There is half a dozen of us that meet up on the concourse and the first question is.."Have you seen the starting eleven?". This is quickly followed by a heated debate about why him, why not him, Is he injured, is he banned, what's LJ thinking?  We never agree before the game but afterwards we all say " I told you so". There will be 20000 team selections today before the game but the only one that matters is the managers. That might not make him right though!!

[spudski]

As much as I like the bloke, Korey Smith isn't the saviour for our Midfield imo...never was a top 6 team midfielder even at his best. Great Professional, but for what fans are expecting...top 6... he's not the up grade in quality we need imo.

At the moment we are playing in a strange way. We work well as a team as a defensive unit...pressing and defending in an organised manner and shape, with structure.

Offensively, especially into the opponent's half, we play like a bunch of individuals that look like they've never played together.

Movement is all over the place. Regardless of who we play and how we set up.

Weimann running everywhere...but more often than not towards the corner flags...which is useless when playing one up front.

Not enough players willing to get into the final third, which indicates they don't trust what happens next when we lose possession.

Odowda weak...Brownhill looking 'shackled'...Palmer same thing wherever on the pitch, head down, try and turn two opponents...careless and goes missing...not worth two sublime passes a game. 

Eliasson...hop, skip, ping into box. End of. Nothing else.

Famara scrapping for everything.

Imo we have at least four players a match not performing as they should, regardless of who we play or formation.

Really not impressed with our understanding and movement offensively or ability to create scoring chances.

 

We are physically weak offensively as well. So easily pushed off the ball.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

As much as I like the bloke, Korey Smith isn't the saviour for our Midfield imo...never was a top 6 team midfielder even at his best. Great Professional, but for what fans are expecting...top 6... he's not the up grade in quality we need imo.

At the moment we are playing in a strange way. We work well as a team as a defensive unit...pressing and defending in an organised manner and shape, with structure.

Offensively, especially into the opponent's half, we play like a bunch of individuals that look like they've never played together.

Movement is all over the place. Regardless of who we play and how we set up.

Weimann running everywhere...but more often than not towards the corner flags...which is useless when playing one up front.

Not enough players willing to get into the final third, which indicates they don't trust what happens next when we lose possession.

Odowda weak...Brownhill looking 'shackled'...Palmer same thing wherever on the pitch, head down, try and turn two opponents...careless and goes missing...not worth two sublime passes a game. 

Eliasson...hop, skip, ping into box. End of. Nothing else.

Famara scrapping for everything.

Imo we have at least four players a match not performing as they should, regardless of who we play or formation.

Really not impressed with our understanding and movement offensively or ability to create scoring chances.

 

We are physically weak offensively as well. So easily pushed off the ball.

Ok, so to answer my OP:

“we have no clue when we attack and are weak” versus “we are so fluid in offence and strong as an ox”

[AppyDAZE]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

As much as I like the bloke, Korey Smith isn't the saviour for our Midfield imo...never was a top 6 team midfielder even at his best. Great Professional, but for what fans are expecting...top 6... he's not the up grade in quality we need imo.

At the moment we are playing in a strange way. We work well as a team as a defensive unit...pressing and defending in an organised manner and shape, with structure.

Offensively, especially into the opponent's half, we play like a bunch of individuals that look like they've never played together.

Movement is all over the place. Regardless of who we play and how we set up.

Weimann running everywhere...but more often than not towards the corner flags...which is useless when playing one up front.

Not enough players willing to get into the final third, which indicates they don't trust what happens next when we lose possession.

Odowda weak...Brownhill looking 'shackled'...Palmer same thing wherever on the pitch, head down, try and turn two opponents...careless and goes missing...not worth two sublime passes a game. 

Eliasson...hop, skip, ping into box. End of. Nothing else.

Famara scrapping for everything.

Imo we have at least four players a match not performing as they should, regardless of who we play or formation.

Really not impressed with our understanding and movement offensively or ability to create scoring chances.

 

We are physically weak offensively as well. So easily pushed off the ball.

Beats the oppo and gets plenty of good crosses and corners into the box. What a crap winger.

[IAmNick]

25 minutes ago, spudski said:

We work well as a team as a defensive unit...pressing and defending in an organised manner and shape, with structure.

Offensively, especially into the opponent's half, we play like a bunch of individuals that look like they've never played together.

[snip]

Really not impressed with our understanding and movement offensively or ability to create scoring chances.

Instinctively I find it hard to disagree when watching, but after 18 games we're 7th in goals scored in the league so equal to our position (with 26), but 17th in goals conceded (with 25) - as in, only 8 teams have conceded more .

That makes me wonder if I have some unconscious bias when watching us which doesn't actually fairly reflect our actual performances. The stats seem to imply we're doing fine offensively, but letting in far too many. I accept our defeats have been heavy which could skew the statistics.

Thoughts?

In response to @Davefevs post, at 2pm I'll be saying "I can't see how we're going to score/go forwards there", but at 5pm I'll be thinking "We let in a/some poor goal(s)".

[Roe]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I rarely criticise the starting eleven.  It might not be what I would choose but as @Robbored reminds us, we don’t see what goes on at the training ground, and for a good while now, I see the logic in his selections

I'm usually like this but honestly I couldn't see the logic in Wednesday's team at all.

We'd missed Diedhiou for the 3 games he was out.  He comes back for just one game and is immediately benched again, after playing pretty well and being a huge help at the back as well.  It made no sense to me.

Same with Eliasson.  We've struggled to create chances lately, he comes on and makes an impact.  Yet doesn't start the next game.  It seems weird.

I wouldn't have minded the "5 at the back" if we'd actually played that way either but the shape was all off.  The wing backs were too wide and forward, the centre backs were too spread out and Williams was isolated.  It meant that whenever someone lost the ball, WBA could just charge straight through us.  Again it was weird.


As for today, I think we'll have a much better chance of creating chances and being entertaining if Palmer, Fam and Eliasson all start.  Fam and Eliasson will start but I think Palmer will be a sub which is a shame imo even if he hasn't been that good lately.

[Curr Avon]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ok, so to answer my OP:

“we have no clue when we attack and are weak” versus “we are so fluid in offence and strong as an ox”

My biggest concern following the West Brom performance was the complete lack of character. We looked scared in and out of possession. Is that down to the manager, or his players? If we don't get a reaction today and fail to win another home game then fans are going to start asking questions. Three wins from 9 would not be a good look. Three points is a must.

[Roe]

6 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Beats the oppo and gets plenty of good crosses and corners into the box. What a crap winger.

Yeah but apart from all those assists, apart from taking 2 or 3 of the opposition out of the game to try and block his crosses, apart from all the corners he wins for us, apart from being one of the few players that runs past opponents and gets them booked/sent off, apart from scoring wondergoals from outside the box on the few occasions he gets to play, apart from tracking back and making more tackles per 90 mins than anyone else in the squad. 

Apart from that what has Niclas Eliasson ever done for us?!?

[AppyDAZE]

8 minutes ago, Roe said:

Yeah but apart from all those assists, apart from taking 2 or 3 of the opposition out of the game to try and block his crosses, apart from all the corners he wins for us, apart from being one of the few players that runs past opponents and gets them booked/sent off, apart from scoring wondergoals from outside the box on the few occasions he gets to play, apart from tracking back and making more tackles per 90 mins than anyone else in the squad. 

Apart from that what has Niclas Eliasson ever done for us?!?

It's alright, he is "knocking at the door" according to our leader.

Then do us a favour, open the ******* door, and let him in!

[Nogbad the Bad]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

 what fans are expecting...top 6...

I'm certainly not expecting top 6, and I doubt most fans are.

Had a strange burst of optimism a couple of months ago that we could genuinely compete with every team in this division but it was very short lived.

It would need the majority of players to play somewhere near to their potential every week, to have a system in place that allowed them to do so, and for the manager to be far more consistent in his selection and tactics, and crucially be far more positive.

It's clearly not going to happen.

I'd be very surprised if we reached the play offs, and even if we did us jaded old fans have seen it all so many times before. We'd likely fail as usual, even perhaps with a dreadful let down of a performance LJ feels obliged to apologise for.

I'm not looking towards the play offs at all - I'm looking for positivity and entertainment, some consistency of performance, and see where that gets us.

8th/9th/10th with an enjoyable season at AG would do me fine, we're obviously far from ready to genuinely compete at the top.

 

[Garland-sweden]

Teams know how to play against City at the gate. Hudds will do the same, sit deep and counterattack. The formula is to be agressive, high tempo in ball and players. Find Weimann when he runs, know were the ball is coming from Eliasson. Dont mess with the ball in defence and midfield. Its not gonna be easy today but think we will make it. Famara and Niclas starts. COYR!!!

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 minutes ago, Garland-sweden said:

Teams know how to play against City at the gate. Hudds will do the same, sit deep and counterattack. The formula is to be agressive, high tempo in ball and players. Find Weimann when he runs, know were the ball is coming from Eliasson. Dont mess with the ball in defence and midfield. Its not gonna be easy today but think we will make it. Famara and Niclas starts. COYR!!!

I'd like to think so, plus Massengo

[Roe]

5 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

It's alright, he is "knocking at the door" according to our leader.

Then do us a favour, open the ******* door, and let him in!

At least he is starting today anyway.

[AppyDAZE]

7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm certainly not expecting top 6, and I doubt most fans are.

Had a strange burst of optimism a couple of months ago that we could genuinely compete with every team in this division but it was very short lived.

It would need the majority of players to play somewhere near to their potential every week, to have a system in place that allowed them to do so, and for the manager to be far more consistent in his selection and tactics, and crucially be far more positive.

It's clearly not going to happen.

I'd be very surprised if we reached the play offs, and even if we did us jaded old fans have seen it all so many times before. We'd likely fail as usual, even perhaps with a dreadful let down of a performance LJ feels obliged to apologise for.

I'm not looking towards the play offs at all - I'm looking for positivity and entertainment, some consistency of performance, and see where that gets us.

8th/9th/10th with an enjoyable season at AG would do me fine, we're obviously far from ready to genuinely compete at the top.

 

Exactly.

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Instinctively I find it hard to disagree when watching, but after 20 games we're 7th in goals scored in the league so equal to our position (with 26), but 17th in goals conceded (with 25) - as in, only 8 teams have conceded more .

That makes me wonder if I have some unconscious bias when watching us which doesn't actually fairly reflect our actual performances. The stats seem to imply we're doing fine offensively, but letting in far too many. I accept our defeats have been heavy which could skew the statistics.

Thoughts?

In response to @Davefevs post, at 2pm I'll be saying "I can't see how we're going to score/go forwards there", but at 5pm I'll be thinking "We let in a/some poor goal(s)".

The stats also show that we produce the fewest scoring chances... we've just been very clynical when they have arrived. That will eventually wear down, which it's starting to do now. You can only go against the run of averages for so long...it will eventually break down. And we've created the fewest chances pretty much all season, which is frightening.

As for defensively... we've also gone against the stats. We've allowed numerous chances on goal, yet Bentley or a last ditch interception has saved us...that will also break down over time. The law of averages will eventually show up.

Everything is on the slide stats wise. And our performances are now matching those average stats.

4 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm certainly not expecting top 6, and I doubt most fans are.

Had a strange burst of optimism a couple of months ago that we could genuinely compete with every team in this division but it was very short lived.

It would need the majority of players to play somewhere near to their potential every week, to have a system in place that allowed them to do so, and for the manager to be far more consistent in his selection and tactics, and crucially be far more positive.

It's clearly not going to happen.

I'd be very surprised if we reached the play offs, and even if we did us jaded old fans have seen it all so many times before. We'd likely fail as usual, even perhaps with a dreadful let down of a performance LJ feels obliged to apologise for.

I'm not looking towards the play offs at all - I'm looking for positivity and entertainment, some consistency of performance, and see where that gets us.

8th/9th/10th with an enjoyable season at AG would do me fine, we're obviously far from ready to genuinely compete at the top.

 

I agree...mid table is pretty much how I see us.

However, myself included, I thought we had a chance pre injuries of being top 6.

I'll have to disagree though about expectations...I hear and read more people saying we should and expect top 6 after all the money spent and LJ having been here so long ... I personally don't expect this.

 

[Red Army 87]

If we go with a back 4 central pairing of Williams and Baker we will struggle, as they won’t get the quality of protection they need from perreira / Rowe and they would need it.

If LJ does go with that I hope to be replying to this at 5pm saying how wrong I was.

[marcofisher]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Got a feeling today’s game is a bit of a watershed for our season.  It shouldn’t be, just feels that way after Wednesday.

I was gonna do a poll, along the lines of - ‘nail your colours to the mast’ - based on your thoughts at 2pm when you see today’s line-up with options like:

• happy with eleven - we are gonna win
• unhappy with eleven - we are gonna lose
• meh with eleven - we are gonna draw
• etc

But it didn’t quite fit with what I was trying to get out of it.  I guess I go back to that game at Newcastle when most people went ballistic when they saw LJ start Wilbs and Vyner, but we drew 2-2 and played decently, even if we lost a 2-0 lead.

I rarely criticise the starting eleven.  It might not be what I would choose but as @Robbored reminds us, we don’t see what goes on at the training ground, and for a good while now, I see the logic in his selections.  Wednesday night for example, the 5311 kept the ball well in a first half spell, but ultimately individual mistakes let us down....but of course post game it was all “effin 5 at the back, blah, blah, blah”.  I don’t think the line-up was the problem, more too many individuals didn’t play well, lost their battles, both first half 5311 and second half 442.

So I was keen to understand how much our posters change their view pre and post-game.  Is the Match Day Thread full of turncoats?  Or are the doom-mongerers, always doom and gloom, whilst the Happy Clappers always over-positive?  Or is it the sit-on-the-fence brigade just sat there waiting to see what happens then go full-blast plus or minus depending on what’s just happened.  In some respects some of our players help our posters with that, e.g. Diedhiou - Cant trap a bag of cement, but also scores a great diving header v Reading, Hunt - rubbish full-back, oh, there’s another assist.  Those aren’t my views by the way!

Tonight at 5pm we will be seeing comments that could go either way.

Tactical Genius, he’s taking us to Europe vs Clueless, got to go.

I told you 433/ was what we needed vs it’s obvious why he’s not gone 433 before because we haven’t got the players 

Eliasson must start vs Eliasson never plays well when he starts, he’s an impact player only.

So long winded pre-amble.

What are your yin and yang hindsight comments gonna be.  Here’s mine:

Korey Smith - “he’s a legend, shows what we’ve been missing” versus “knew he couldn’t start twice in quick succession”

The thing is Dave, we kept the ball well but actually offered nothing in terms of getting the ball up the other side of the pitch. We set up so negatively that even without individual mistakes WBA would have found a way through and once those individual mistakes happened we had no way of being able to get it out of our half and make amends for them. 

I think it's a bit naive to say line up was not the problem, you had two outside centre backs who could not carry the ball or do anything useful with it. Also with a lack of the presence up the pitch, our midfielders had nobody to look forward and knock the ball onto. Brownhill and Palmer forced to go backwards in order to try to keep possession as WBA were able to keep our whole team compressed into our half of the pitch, and then mistakes happened. 

 

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Got a feeling today’s game is a bit of a watershed for our season.  It shouldn’t be, just feels that way after Wednesday.

I was gonna do a poll, along the lines of - ‘nail your colours to the mast’ - based on your thoughts at 2pm when you see today’s line-up with options like:

• happy with eleven - we are gonna win
• unhappy with eleven - we are gonna lose
• meh with eleven - we are gonna draw
• etc

But it didn’t quite fit with what I was trying to get out of it.  I guess I go back to that game at Newcastle when most people went ballistic when they saw LJ start Wilbs and Vyner, but we drew 2-2 and played decently, even if we lost a 2-0 lead.

I rarely criticise the starting eleven.  It might not be what I would choose but as @Robbored reminds us, we don’t see what goes on at the training ground, and for a good while now, I see the logic in his selections.  Wednesday night for example, the 5311 kept the ball well in a first half spell, but ultimately individual mistakes let us down....but of course post game it was all “effin 5 at the back, blah, blah, blah”.  I don’t think the line-up was the problem, more too many individuals didn’t play well, lost their battles, both first half 5311 and second half 442.

So I was keen to understand how much our posters change their view pre and post-game.  Is the Match Day Thread full of turncoats?  Or are the doom-mongerers, always doom and gloom, whilst the Happy Clappers always over-positive?  Or is it the sit-on-the-fence brigade just sat there waiting to see what happens then go full-blast plus or minus depending on what’s just happened.  In some respects some of our players help our posters with that, e.g. Diedhiou - Cant trap a bag of cement, but also scores a great diving header v Reading, Hunt - rubbish full-back, oh, there’s another assist.  Those aren’t my views by the way!

Tonight at 5pm we will be seeing comments that could go either way.

Tactical Genius, he’s taking us to Europe vs Clueless, got to go.

I told you 433/ was what we needed vs it’s obvious why he’s not gone 433 before because we haven’t got the players 

Eliasson must start vs Eliasson never plays well when he starts, he’s an impact player only.

So long winded pre-amble.

What are your yin and yang hindsight comments gonna be.  Here’s mine:

Korey Smith - “he’s a legend, shows what we’ve been missing” versus “knew he couldn’t start twice in quick succession”

Palmer - luxury player, doesn’t do anything vs what a worldy assist, only he could play that pass we need his creativity 

[Garland-sweden]

15 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'd like to think so, plus Massengo

Yes, Smith or Nagy on the bench. Think Smith.

[Nogbad the Bad]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'll have to disagree though about expectations...I hear and read more people saying we should and expect top 6 after all the money spent and LJ having been here so long ... I personally don't expect this.

 

I think these expectations - or more likely 'aim for the season' - comes only from the top.

Fans who actually watch City regularly couldn't possibly expect it.

 

 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

The thing is Dave, we kept the ball well but actually offered nothing in terms of getting the ball up the other side of the pitch.

we did a bit, there were a couple of good crosses by Pereira, one O’Dowda almost got onto, and he himself had a couple if opportunities to cross but didn’t or got blocked.  I accept it wasn’t dynamic but it offered a bit of hope.

We set up so negatively that even without individual mistakes WBA would have found a way through and once those individual mistakes happened we had no way of being able to get it out of our half and make amends for them. 

I think it's a bit naive to say line up was not the problem, you had two outside centre backs who could not carry the ball or do anything useful with it.

can’t argue with that, but injuries meant that.  Of course we could’ve gone back 4...but that would’ve meant other changes.  In hindsight we maybe should have.

Also with a lack of the presence up the pitch, our midfielders had nobody to look forward and knock the ball onto. Brownhill and Palmer forced to go backwards in order to try to keep possession as WBA were able to keep our whole team compressed into our half of the pitch, and then mistakes happened.

agree, but during the spell we did pass it, we did progress up the pitch.  It showed we could do it, but then Brom took over.  Same second half really.  5/6 minute spell, then nothing....with a different system.

 

 

[Laner]

Not about the team but....

Another poor referee! Never let play flow and missed a clear penalty!

[bcfc01]

I'll put my chopper on the block and say "if LJ had played this team we'd have beaten Huddersfield instead of drawing"

                Bentley

Pereira Williams Baker Rowe

       Nagy Massengo

Weimann Brownhill Eliasson

             Diedhiou

Could also move into a 4-3-3 with those players.

Not a big fan of Diedhiou but there isn't any other player to play up front......until january hopefully.

[RedRock]

We need to add a ‘win’ to the usual, playing ugly today. 

West Brom was awful. It was an utter shambles from back to front.

I don’t care who he picks - yes, even CoD, Watkins - as long as they do a job that they’re comfortable with and have the ability  to deliver. Nothing cute, nothing clever just get on the ball and play with purpose and belief as a team unit. 

[ashton_fan]

I think the main problem is 3 of out main summer signings Kala's, Afobe and Dasilva have been unavailable. As a result the squad is no better than what we had last season ,(we've got Nagy and Massengo but missing Webster and Kelly), and consequently we're in around the same position in the league as last year. The January window and returning players are our only hope.

[cidercity1987]

I do expect top six or at least a bloody good effort at it. Aside from the top 4 our competition for the final two places looks weak and generally consists of clubs much smaller than  us

[spudski]

36 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I think these expectations - or more likely 'aim for the season' - comes only from the top.

Fans who actually watch City regularly couldn't possibly expect it.

 

 

Unfortunately they do...seen plenty on here.