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Live Football - City too


PFree

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Before you jump on me, this for me is realism and not intended as negativity. I'm lucky in that I was also able to enjoy the old game in the 70's and 80's when football was football.

Perhaps with the exception of the Huddersfield game, I cannot remember when I last left the Gate feeling good about the game or at all motivated. As a ST of a few decades, I have to admit I've missed four or five home games this season, for whatever reason, I'm not feeling it at the moment and probably haven't fir a couple of seasons - I renewed our two tickets only out of loyalty being honest.

That said I'm not sure if it's totally City related, I just wonder if live football has become so sterile that the entertainment factor has all but gone?

Tactically, it seems all about shape nowadays and playing out from the back, boring sideways and backwards football

Players can't make a tackle nowadays, it's almost non-contact

The theatrics in the game now are terrible, it's just cheating sadly and the English game was never like that before the influx of foreign players - (its simple, just ban players in video evidence shows no contact, it'll soon stop when bans and naming and shaming is in place)

Refereeing standards are awful, there's little or no control over the game, no consistency and you only see yellow cards in the 90th minute for time wasting but it's too late by then, the game is over

Health and Safety means at night games you have to leave stand lights on - and the flashing advertising banners are distractive to say the least

VAR - appreciate it is helping to get more right decisions but again, it's slowed the game yet further and caused even more uncertainty...!

I could go on but that's enough for now and I believe sags enough - does football need to take a good hard look at itself do you think?

 

 

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1 hour ago, PFree said:

Before you jump on me, this for me is realism and not intended as negativity. I'm lucky in that I was also able to enjoy the old game in the 70's and 80's when football was football.

Perhaps with the exception of the Huddersfield game, I cannot remember when I last left the Gate feeling good about the game or at all motivated. As a ST of a few decades, I have to admit I've missed four or five home games this season, for whatever reason, I'm not feeling it at the moment and probably haven't fir a couple of seasons - I renewed our two tickets only out of loyalty being honest.

That said I'm not sure if it's totally City related, I just wonder if live football has become so sterile that the entertainment factor has all but gone?

Tactically, it seems all about shape nowadays and playing out from the back, boring sideways and backwards football

Players can't make a tackle nowadays, it's almost non-contact

The theatrics in the game now are terrible, it's just cheating sadly and the English game was never like that before the influx of foreign players - (its simple, just ban players in video evidence shows no contact, it'll soon stop when bans and naming and shaming is in place)

Refereeing standards are awful, there's little or no control over the game, no consistency and you only see yellow cards in the 90th minute for time wasting but it's too late by then, the game is over

Health and Safety means at night games you have to leave stand lights on - and the flashing advertising banners are distractive to say the least

VAR - appreciate it is helping to get more right decisions but again, it's slowed the game yet further and caused even more uncertainty...!

I could go on but that's enough for now and I believe sags enough - does football need to take a good hard look at itself do you think?

 

 

Perfectly said. Exactly how I feel. 

Once the nipper doesn't need me any more, I'll be moving on to another sport full time and taking a passing interest in City.

I know I won't muster the enthusiasm for what is currently a 10am to 7pm day with travel etc. 

The millennial generation can 'have' the club, along with their quiet, reserved support, their copies of Fifa 20+ and their smartphones. 

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2 hours ago, PFree said:

Before you jump on me, this for me is realism and not intended as negativity. I'm lucky in that I was also able to enjoy the old game in the 70's and 80's when football was football.

Perhaps with the exception of the Huddersfield game, I cannot remember when I last left the Gate feeling good about the game or at all motivated. As a ST of a few decades, I have to admit I've missed four or five home games this season, for whatever reason, I'm not feeling it at the moment and probably haven't fir a couple of seasons - I renewed our two tickets only out of loyalty being honest.

That said I'm not sure if it's totally City related, I just wonder if live football has become so sterile that the entertainment factor has all but gone?

Tactically, it seems all about shape nowadays and playing out from the back, boring sideways and backwards football

Players can't make a tackle nowadays, it's almost non-contact

The theatrics in the game now are terrible, it's just cheating sadly and the English game was never like that before the influx of foreign players - (its simple, just ban players in video evidence shows no contact, it'll soon stop when bans and naming and shaming is in place)

Refereeing standards are awful, there's little or no control over the game, no consistency and you only see yellow cards in the 90th minute for time wasting but it's too late by then, the game is over

Health and Safety means at night games you have to leave stand lights on - and the flashing advertising banners are distractive to say the least

VAR - appreciate it is helping to get more right decisions but again, it's slowed the game yet further and caused even more uncertainty...!

I could go on but that's enough for now and I believe sags enough - does football need to take a good hard look at itself do you think?

 

 

Very close to my thoughts as well.

If you watch a game as a neutral it is quite obvious how much cheating takes place by both sides in an effort to gain an advantage, we could start a ‘how teams cheat’ thread and have nearly as many posts as the Gas thread.

Not a big rugby fan, but last night watched the bears game on BT, no dissent, no swearing at the ref or each other, accepting the refs decision and getting on with it, if there were any obvious attempts at cheating none were mentioned by the commentators. There was some talk between the ref and some players but it all seemed to be respectful and in the right spirit.

It seems to me the tighter games are the worse the gamesmanship is, so perhaps the Championship has more than most leagues.

To have had to bring in a  law that cautions players for ‘simulation’ says it all really.

 

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3 hours ago, Countryfile said:

Very close to my thoughts as well.

If you watch a game as a neutral it is quite obvious how much cheating takes place by both sides in an effort to gain an advantage, we could start a ‘how teams cheat’ thread and have nearly as many posts as the Gas thread.

Not a big rugby fan, but last night watched the bears game on BT, no dissent, no swearing at the ref or each other, accepting the refs decision and getting on with it, if there were any obvious attempts at cheating none were mentioned by the commentators. There was some talk between the ref and some players but it all seemed to be respectful and in the right spirit.

It seems to me the tighter games are the worse the gamesmanship is, so perhaps the Championship has more than most leagues.

To have had to bring in a  law that cautions players for ‘simulation’ says it all really.

 

There is a lot more respect in rugby for referees. However, as a Bears ST holder in addition to City, all the petty cheating, time wasting, in the refs ear whenever possible, is there in abundance if you look carefully.

For me, though, at this time, I prefer the rugby games in which Bristol are clearly encouraged by Pat Lam, to play open, attacking rugby. It is a joy to watch, win lose or draw, compared with the dross being served up by Johnson.

I did not go yesterday, and it's the second time I've done that in LJ's time here. I have never before stayed away in my life, only missing games when ill or out of the country. I lived in Shrewsbury and Livingston for about 13 years and only missed two home games due to illness and snowbound. Eight years in Portugal and I saw at least six home games a season.

I am angry with myself for not going but it has become so boring, tedious and it seems like a total waste of time. That's a laugh as I'm retired with not a lot else to come between me and football.

Johnson has achieved something that two wives found it impossible to do. Keep me at home when City are playing!

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6 hours ago, PFree said:

Before you jump on me, this for me is realism and not intended as negativity. I'm lucky in that I was also able to enjoy the old game in the 70's and 80's when football was football.

Perhaps with the exception of the Huddersfield game, I cannot remember when I last left the Gate feeling good about the game or at all motivated. As a ST of a few decades, I have to admit I've missed four or five home games this season, for whatever reason, I'm not feeling it at the moment and probably haven't fir a couple of seasons - I renewed our two tickets only out of loyalty being honest.

That said I'm not sure if it's totally City related, I just wonder if live football has become so sterile that the entertainment factor has all but gone?

Tactically, it seems all about shape nowadays and playing out from the back, boring sideways and backwards football

Players can't make a tackle nowadays, it's almost non-contact

The theatrics in the game now are terrible, it's just cheating sadly and the English game was never like that before the influx of foreign players - (its simple, just ban players in video evidence shows no contact, it'll soon stop when bans and naming and shaming is in place)

Refereeing standards are awful, there's little or no control over the game, no consistency and you only see yellow cards in the 90th minute for time wasting but it's too late by then, the game is over

Health and Safety means at night games you have to leave stand lights on - and the flashing advertising banners are distractive to say the least

VAR - appreciate it is helping to get more right decisions but again, it's slowed the game yet further and caused even more uncertainty...!

I could go on but that's enough for now and I believe sags enough - does football need to take a good hard look at itself do you think?

 

 

Agree with all your post, except the diving bit. Diving has been going on in the English game long before the influx of foreign players. You can go as far back as the 70’s when Francis Lee was doing it regularly. 

We also had one ourselves in the early 80’s, I give you Steve Neville!

 

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2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Agree with all your post, except the diving bit. Diving has been going on in the English game long before the influx of foreign players. You can go as far back as the 70’s when Francis Lee was doing it regularly. 

We also had one ourselves in the early 80’s, I give you Steve Neville!

 

Rodney Marsh used to openly brag about how he used to trip himself up in the area !

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10 hours ago, PFree said:

Before you jump on me, this for me is realism and not intended as negativity. I'm lucky in that I was also able to enjoy the old game in the 70's and 80's when football was football.

Perhaps with the exception of the Huddersfield game, I cannot remember when I last left the Gate feeling good about the game or at all motivated. As a ST of a few decades, I have to admit I've missed four or five home games this season, for whatever reason, I'm not feeling it at the moment and probably haven't fir a couple of seasons - I renewed our two tickets only out of loyalty being honest.

That said I'm not sure if it's totally City related, I just wonder if live football has become so sterile that the entertainment factor has all but gone?

Tactically, it seems all about shape nowadays and playing out from the back, boring sideways and backwards football

Players can't make a tackle nowadays, it's almost non-contact

The theatrics in the game now are terrible, it's just cheating sadly and the English game was never like that before the influx of foreign players - (its simple, just ban players in video evidence shows no contact, it'll soon stop when bans and naming and shaming is in place)

Refereeing standards are awful, there's little or no control over the game, no consistency and you only see yellow cards in the 90th minute for time wasting but it's too late by then, the game is over

Health and Safety means at night games you have to leave stand lights on - and the flashing advertising banners are distractive to say the least

VAR - appreciate it is helping to get more right decisions but again, it's slowed the game yet further and caused even more uncertainty...!

I could go on but that's enough for now and I believe sags enough - does football need to take a good hard look at itself do you think?

Great post - totally agree with it ... and on the ‘players can’t make a tackle’ point - I remember reading a stat a couple of years ago which stated that Joe Bryan made the most number of tackles for us in a game and he’d made 3 .... 3?!?!?! When I played non league football I reckon I went into tackles about once every couple of minutes - but nowadays 3 tackles from one player in 90 minutes is the most?! 

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Football changes.   What I started watching in 1979 was a world away from the football of the 1930s.

Well now we're forty years on and there is not a single Bristol born player in the first team.

It's changed again; and I've lost interest.

My first game 1979, 1-0 defeat to Arsenal.  And the team was:

  • Shaw
  • Sweeney
  • Whitehead
  • Rodgers
  • Merrick
  • Fitzpatrick
  • Ritchie
  • Mabbutt
  • Taintin
  • Mann
  • Royle

These players had been an average of six years at the club.  Four from Bristol, three England, and four Scotland.

These players were as much invested in City as were the fans.  Of whom could you say the same today?  Louis Carey and Scott Murray were probably the last of that type.

Times change; and for me they have now changed too much.

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With the exception of the Huddersfield game (which I missed) there has been a distinct lack of entertainment from the home team this season and for most of the last 2 years. The high point was the win over Manchester United (which I also missed as I was in Canada that Christmas!) and its been pretty poor ever since, with just the occasional game where we have really gone for it at AG e.g West Brom last season. Generally the play has been pretty poor and pedestrian and wouldn’t encourage many neutrals to come back again. We played far better football in the League 1 winning season, and that wasn’t just because we were playing lesser opposition.

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16 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

There is a lot more respect in rugby for referees. However, as a Bears ST holder in addition to City, all the petty cheating, time wasting, in the refs ear whenever possible, is there in abundance if you look carefully.

For me, though, at this time, I prefer the rugby games in which Bristol are clearly encouraged by Pat Lam, to play open, attacking rugby. It is a joy to watch, win lose or draw, compared with the dross being served up by Johnson.

I did not go yesterday, and it's the second time I've done that in LJ's time here. I have never before stayed away in my life, only missing games when ill or out of the country. I lived in Shrewsbury and Livingston for about 13 years and only missed two home games due to illness and snowbound. Eight years in Portugal and I saw at least six home games a season.

I am angry with myself for not going but it has become so boring, tedious and it seems like a total waste of time. That's a laugh as I'm retired with not a lot else to come between me and football.

Johnson has achieved something that two wives found it impossible to do. Keep me at home when City are playing!

Would you agree two things we could take from rugby relatively easily and which would improve the football experience are the stopping of the clock (I’m not entirely sure what the rugby rule is about stopping the clock!) and the on field treatment of injuries.

The time taken now for free kicks of any kind appears to be unlimited, and the on field treatment often appears to be directly related to the state of the game at the time in football.

I’m not yet at the disillusioned state as some of the posts, but I do wonder how long it will be before some of our younger fans will decide a Saturday at home with the PlayStation or doing something else is preferable, as opposed to waiting endlessly for a goal kick to be taken, or a player to have his broken fingernail operated on.

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And yet, crowds keep going up at Ashton gate....way more than they were say 20 years ago. So there must be a demand. Is it just out of loyalty or is the current experience sufficient for some ? Tricky one as I agree that the atmosphere has waned over the years ....I think you could make a strong case  that the quality of players and therefore football has improved. What will it take for the bubble to bust and we see attendances significantly drop...assuming we stay in the division of course

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19 minutes ago, Out of his pie crust said:

And yet, crowds keep going up at Ashton gate....way more than they were say 20 years ago. So there must be a demand. Is it just out of loyalty or is the current experience sufficient for some ? Tricky one as I agree that the atmosphere has waned over the years ....I think you could make a strong case  that the quality of players and therefore football has improved. What will it take for the bubble to bust and we see attendances significantly drop...assuming we stay in the division of course

Many of those with tickets are youngsters, £50 wasn’t it for a child ST and £90 for U19?
What the actual attendance is for each match remains a mystery as I believe all ST’s are included, or am I mistaken?

The match day experience for the majority is probably better, choice of bars and food, a decent view under cover for nearly all, unfortunately I can’t agree with the better on field experience, and that ultimately will drive the attendances.

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39 minutes ago, Out of his pie crust said:

And yet, crowds keep going up at Ashton gate....way more than they were say 20 years ago. So there must be a demand. Is it just out of loyalty or is the current experience sufficient for some ? Tricky one as I agree that the atmosphere has waned over the years ....I think you could make a strong case  that the quality of players and therefore football has improved. What will it take for the bubble to bust and we see attendances significantly drop...assuming we stay in the division of course

 

15 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Many of those with tickets are youngsters, £50 wasn’t it for a child ST and £90 for U19?
What the actual attendance is for each match remains a mystery as I believe all ST’s are included, or am I mistaken?

The match day experience for the majority is probably better, choice of bars and food, a decent view under cover for nearly all, unfortunately I can’t agree with the better on field experience, and that ultimately will drive the attendances.

Both have a fair amount of truth tbh.

Fanbase has grown, there is absolutely no doubt- grown significantly from when I started going in 1998. Is it a permanent growth, or a decent chunk of it a permanent growth? Time will tell- good way to out it might be is has the hardcore total grown significantly?

That said, you are right- all ST's and tickets otherwise sold are included- commonplace in football now. Only the club, and presumably the other relevant bodies know both sets of figures.

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16 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Agree with all your post, except the diving bit. Diving has been going on in the English game long before the influx of foreign players. You can go as far back as the 70’s when Francis Lee was doing it regularly. 

We also had one ourselves in the early 80’s, I give you Steve Neville!

The only difference back in the 70s and 80s was that the players you could call "divers" could be counted on the fingers of one hand, possibly two, and they mainly populated the first division. These days most top teams have half a team for whom diving has become an art form, and diving and play acting has spread down the divisions, so at championship level it seems pretty widespread ( another thing the premier league has given us, along with parachute payments!).

Also, back in the 70s and 80s we still had what us oldies would cal "proper football", when tackling was an integral part of the game, where physical contact was part and parcel of the game, when a hard tackle didn't always result in a foul, let alone a booking, but the so called "hard men" of the game might dish it out, but they would also take it.

Football has changed ( evolved) over time and one of the problems , as you get older, is that the comparison with what you remember from your youth, when everything was new and exiting, is all too often disappointing. It's a bit like recollecting summer holidays when you are a kid. All you remember is hot sunny days on the beach, ice cream and fish and chips. You always conveniently forget the wet dreary days, dragging around the shops with mum, with your brother and sister whinging and moaning!

The other factor these days is that football is a 7 days a week, wall-to-wall product, so you can see live football, and not just from the UK, almost whenever you want. It gives so much football with which to compare what is on offer at Ashton Gate, and especially when performances are as they have tended to be for the last 18 months or so, it become s very frustrating. Added to which the cost of going to a game ids not the pocket money it used to be back in my younger days.In my youth the only alternative to live football at Ashton Gate, was the cup final and MOTD highlights. There was little against which you could measure and thereby be disappointed.

Money is the biggest game changer as far as I can tell. We are struggling to compete with the stronger financial clubs in the championship, and the top premier league clubs are out of sight - ver the hill and far away financially. In the 70s, when we were in the top flight, we were among the top payers as far as players wages were concerned, something that would be impossible these days.

 

 

  

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1 hour ago, Countryfile said:

Many of those with tickets are youngsters, £50 wasn’t it for a child ST and £90 for U19?
What the actual attendance is for each match remains a mystery as I believe all ST’s are included, or am I mistaken?

The match day experience for the majority is probably better, choice of bars and food, a decent view under cover for nearly all, unfortunately I can’t agree with the better on field experience, and that ultimately will drive the attendances.

Sexstone once said 1 in 6 STH's miss each game.

Actual attendance is usually 2-3k down on official attendance iirc. and more if terrible weather/a run of awful displays.

Choice of bars or food doesn't affect me - I may get a reduced priced pasty occasionally on the way out but I'm there for the football.

Always surprises me on my way out to pass groups in the concourse drinking and laughing after an awful display - I guess the football result/performance affects their matchday experience less than it does me because I'm pissed off in those circumstances, and far from laughing.

Or perhaps drinking before, during and after matches so the quality of football on display is less relevant is the answer?

 

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2 hours ago, Countryfile said:

Would you agree two things we could take from rugby relatively easily and which would improve the football experience are the stopping of the clock (I’m not entirely sure what the rugby rule is about stopping the clock!) and the on field treatment of injuries.

The time taken now for free kicks of any kind appears to be unlimited, and the on field treatment often appears to be directly related to the state of the game at the time in football.

I’m not yet at the disillusioned state as some of the posts, but I do wonder how long it will be before some of our younger fans will decide a Saturday at home with the PlayStation or doing something else is preferable, as opposed to waiting endlessly for a goal kick to be taken, or a player to have his broken fingernail operated on.

The average time the ball is in play for a rugby match  is 44 mins out of 80. Football 62 out of 90. So rugby gets approx 50% of the game where nothing happens, football a third. 

There are far more stoppages in rugby, in fact for me, the time it takes for some scrums is ridiculous. Some scrums end up getting set 4-5 times, the clock is running through the whole duration of this, you can actually lose 5 minutes of the game and nothing is actually happening. 

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2 hours ago, Out of his pie crust said:

And yet, crowds keep going up at Ashton gate....way more than they were say 20 years ago. So there must be a demand. Is it just out of loyalty or is the current experience sufficient for some ? Tricky one as I agree that the atmosphere has waned over the years ....I think you could make a strong case  that the quality of players and therefore football has improved. What will it take for the bubble to bust and we see attendances significantly drop...assuming we stay in the division of course

I don't think the bubble will burst or that football will end. It's more that every year football, or more specifically the football at Ashton Gate changes, and becomes further and further away from what it was when you began supporting your team.

If you had started watching in the 1940s then by the 1980s it would have changed a lot: players on high salaries with flash cars, much more expensive tickets, and hooliganism.  And you might decide it has changed too much and lose interest.

If you started watching in the 80s then the big change is the huge amount of TV coverage and the vast money that brings making the Premiership and the top half of the Championship an international league which no longer sees clubs turning out players with roots in the local area.

If you started watching in the 2000s well the present situation is similar to what it was when you first started watching so you'll keep going.

It's always changed and always will and for every generation there comes a point when the change is too much and people stop going.

My estimate of the average active supporting time for your average fan is thirty to forty years before it becomes unrecognisable and they stop going.

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All very reasonable points. I think you’re right about the blend of attitudes to the football - for some it’s secondary to meeting up with mates for a few drinks with winning as a nice bonus, others it really matters and affects the rest of week in terms of a reaction to performance and result. Think my first game was around 87 or so....and I do miss some of the old atmosphere and get frustrated with what I see sometimes on the pitch ....but still enjoy going for the other social bits so have probably changed a bit over the years with the game. 

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One thing I do miss these days in pre-match atmosphere. 

It didn't happen every game, but I can remember many games when songs would boom out even 30 mins before kickoff. By the time kickoff came around everyone was very worked up. 

That never happens now. 

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2 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

One thing I do miss these days in pre-match atmosphere. 

It didn't happen every game, but I can remember many games when songs would boom out even 30 mins before kickoff. By the time kickoff came around everyone was very worked up. 

That never happens now. 

Yep, remember being in massive queues at the juvenile turnstiles and the East End was already in full voice 20 minutes before the game.

Couldn't wait to get in there.

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2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, remember being in massive queues at the juvenile turnstiles and the East End was already in full voice 20 minutes before the game.

Couldn't wait to get in there.

Walking into an already noisy ground is special. 

As a nipper I found it amazing walking up the slope and emerging on the Willliams side of the East End. I felt I was part of something. 

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15 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Great post - totally agree with it ... and on the ‘players can’t make a tackle’ point - I remember reading a stat a couple of years ago which stated that Joe Bryan made the most number of tackles for us in a game and he’d made 3 .... 3?!?!?! When I played non league football I reckon I went into tackles about once every couple of minutes - but nowadays 3 tackles from one player in 90 minutes is the most?! 

That’s because your first touch was so bad!!! ?

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On 15/12/2019 at 11:36, PFree said:

Before you jump on me, this for me is realism and not intended as negativity. I'm lucky in that I was also able to enjoy the old game in the 70's and 80's when football was football.

Perhaps with the exception of the Huddersfield game, I cannot remember when I last left the Gate feeling good about the game or at all motivated. As a ST of a few decades, I have to admit I've missed four or five home games this season, for whatever reason, I'm not feeling it at the moment and probably haven't fir a couple of seasons - I renewed our two tickets only out of loyalty being honest.

That said I'm not sure if it's totally City related, I just wonder if live football has become so sterile that the entertainment factor has all but gone?

Tactically, it seems all about shape nowadays and playing out from the back, boring sideways and backwards football

Players can't make a tackle nowadays, it's almost non-contact

The theatrics in the game now are terrible, it's just cheating sadly and the English game was never like that before the influx of foreign players - (its simple, just ban players in video evidence shows no contact, it'll soon stop when bans and naming and shaming is in place)

Refereeing standards are awful, there's little or no control over the game, no consistency and you only see yellow cards in the 90th minute for time wasting but it's too late by then, the game is over

Health and Safety means at night games you have to leave stand lights on - and the flashing advertising banners are distractive to say the least

VAR - appreciate it is helping to get more right decisions but again, it's slowed the game yet further and caused even more uncertainty...!

I could go on but that's enough for now and I believe sags enough - does football need to take a good hard look at itself do you think?

 

 

Yes your right mate as you said people go on about singing and cheering its boring as hell the last season or so you need something or effort to get you out your seat all too sterile good job i go with my mates and have a few beers ?

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