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What is our identity that LJ always bangs on about?


Lez

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Why does LJ always go on about our identity when we dont have one, it's just a token sentence that means very little that he wheels out time and time again despite not a single person actually knowing what our identity is.

You look at majority of other championship managers they have a clear way of playing and a clear identity behind their teams....fact is we new what was coming against millwall and Blackburn because the sides have a clear structure lead by rowett and mowbray....just like we know what we are going to get against the Leeds and west Brom of this division.

Not only do we have no identity but we have such a strange mix of players that maybe it isnt possible to have one....I mean LJ has had so many windows to get it right and let's be honest he clearly still hasnt....target man Diedhiou fancy flick artist Palmer, lump Baker, neat and tidy Nagy its such a strange mix....I appreciate you need the clubs in the basket but you also need some clarity and links in style.

I cant help but feel that LJ is one of those managers who is solid enough at this level but doesnt have the tactical nouse to take us to the next level.....we dont play good football, we dont play direct football, we dont look well drilled, we dont look like we have clear plans.....we look especially at home pretty desperate tbh.

He has had massive stability even those players he has moved on with the finances involved he has delivered upgrades in terms of ability and track record.....he bas been under little pressure with exception of that one losing run....He has signed a shed load of duff players, he has no set system and looks tactically inept against sides at home.

I appreciate we are just outside the playoffs but let's be honest we are lucky to be where we are....we have been dominated against in large spells even wins v qpr and Charlton etc.

For the money he has spent for the time he has been given for the stability of club leadership and for the resources this club has I'm sorry but......I think he is underachieving in terms of the IDENTITY DEVELOPMENT and TACTIAL NOUSE required to take us to the next level.....

My knives are sharpening.

 

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At Oldham , Lee was a young, inexperienced manager.  At Barnsley, he was a developing manager.

He is now in his 3rd season of development here.  I guess you would have expected that he would have developed by now then. Not that we have seen much evidence of it in the last couple of games.

A very big transfer window for him in January I think and he will probably need to be judged on it.  After all, it was Lee himself that said "Judge me after 3 windows".

The last few games have suggested than not much is going on on the training ground and a lot seems to be lacking in the motivational Stakes. We certainly didm't look as 'up for it' as either Millwall or Blackburn and frankly more resembled a bunch of powder puffs.

Lee also needs to trott out something a bit more meaningful in his post match interviews. The cliches have worn so thin, they have become threadbare.

 

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6 hours ago, Lez said:

Why does LJ always go on about our identity when we dont have one, it's just a token sentence that means very little that he wheels out time and time again despite not a single person actually knowing what our identity is.

This is the strangest irony. It's one of LJ's most often used words and yet his teams throughout the years have never had a clear method.

"We lost our identity" = we lost the game

"We found our identity" = we won the game after losing the previous game

The football has been successful and entertaining at times (mostly away from home) but I can't remember seeing us play to a set of tactics and purpose that are clear and consistent across a run of games.

Most previous managers had this and even when I didn't like the style (Pulis and Danny Wilson), it was fairly clear that there was a gameplan.

At home we often seem paralysed by confusion. We're mostly setup to nullify the opposition. That isn't an identity, that's a reactionary response.

I wish he wouldn't use the word. Nobody including LJ can define what our identity is and consequently it undermines his credibility as a legitimate Championship head coach.

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6 hours ago, Xiled said:

This is the strangest irony. It's one of LJ's most often used words and yet his teams throughout the years have never had a clear method.

"We lost our identity" = we lost the game

"We found our identity" = we won the game after losing the previous game

The football has been successful and entertaining at times (mostly away from home) but I can't remember seeing us play to a set of tactics and purpose that are clear and consistent across a run of games.

Most previous managers had this and even when I didn't like the style (Pulis and Danny Wilson), it was fairly clear that there was a gameplan.

At home we often seem paralysed by confusion. We're mostly setup to nullify the opposition. That isn't an identity, that's a reactionary response.

I wish he wouldn't use the word. Nobody including LJ can define what our identity is and consequently it undermines his credibility as a legitimate Championship head coach.

Maybe rose tinted glasses but I actually enjoyed  watching Danny Wilson’s football back in the day,just as entertaining as anything being served up by Johnson junior.

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In summer 2016 and early 16/17 season, Lee talked about our "pitch personality," which is broadly the same thing as identity. 

I would suggest our "pitch personality" at home this season is introverted, even introverted/moderately depressed, with perhaps only the Huddersfield game being an exception. Fearful might be another adjective (but then, every player and every team has to overcome fear).

Some that don't like the constant questioning  (or hammering of) the head coach would like to put this introversion of the players down to the negative influence of the AG crowd but I cannot agree with this: the AG crowd is more introverted, subdued, quiet than the bloody team (other than S82,  who continue to start games with some vocal encouragement but this fizzles out before very long).

Yes, there is moaning and grumbling when a pass goes astray, Fam bodges a ball into his feet, but this occurs at every ground around the country. This is football, and not unique to AG. It doesn't explain the timid, lifeless performances. There have been too many.

AG is a neutral space - a blank canvas - neither noisily supportive nor audibly antagonistic to the home team. The "personality" of the whole shebang is opaque, sterile, lacking in personality. I would think opposition teams find it not unpleasant playing here.

And yet, we could've been quite comfortably sat in third place this morning. That is no stretch of the imagination.

 

When we go 0:2 down, we suddenly find some urgency, and energy. Some "personality," even. It wouldn't kill us against teams as modest as Blackburn to give it both barrells from the start, to play like we have some bollocks between our legs. What happened to Lee's "we'll die in a ditch trying"?

That's it, we lack "bollocks." The coach can talk some (even his most ardent supporters must agree?) but we need a team with bollocks, not a team of castrati.

To put it simply: Lee, hand back this team their bollocks. Then their "identity" will emerge.

 

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12 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

 

The "personality" of the whole shebang is opaque, sterile, lacking in personality. I would think opposition teams find it not unpleasant playing here [against him].

That's it, we lack "bollocks." The coach can talk some (even his most ardent supporters must agree?) but we need a team with bollocks, not a team of castrati.

To put it simply: Lee, hand back this team their bollocks. Then their "identity" will emerge.

 

As others, including myself, have said ..... a team built in his own image!!!

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36 minutes ago, Super said:

Keeper throws it out to a defender it gets played along the back four then back again then back to the keeper who lumps it upfield. Looks good on the possession stats.

Even then, a possession based team we are not. Only a few recent home games have we seen some.

Think we average 50% or less for the season so we're failing on many metrics!

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40 minutes ago, Super said:

Keeper throws it out to a defender it gets played along the back four then back again then back to the keeper who lumps it upfield. Looks good on the possession stats.

O’Driscoll football!!!

Ive said it many many times. Yes we are better position than during his time here but the club is so much better structured and we are paying comparatively huge wages. 
But the possession at all costs football that goes nowhere is very much the same. 
We are a dream to play against. If you push up high on us we have no outball so you win it back so easily. 
Heres to finding an ‘identity’ in January!!

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1 hour ago, Peter1450 said:

Maybe rose tinted glasses but I actually enjoyed  watching Danny Wilson’s football back in the day,just as entertaining as anything being served up by Johnson junior.

And just as successful let me hasten to add - I'm a fan of both Wilson and LJ for the record, but let's remember that Wilson failed to deliver what he was meant (i.e. promotion). 

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I agree with the sentiment that we just don't have any defining 'type' in the team, either in play or personnel. It seems we have bought players  ad hoc without a plan to gel these players into a group that fully understands each others roles. We have to build from the back, which in a a way have, and yet our defence is  conceding very poor goals and is one of the worst in the league. The irony is the attack is weak in many areas and yet the goals for column belies that, but currently we are being found out for not building a team with structure and yes identity. 

Of course this really is down to Lee, and as much as I like the guy, he just has to sort things out quickly or another stab at promotion to the top flight will be consigned to the failures of season's past.

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23 minutes ago, nickolas said:

O’Driscoll football!!!

Ive said it many many times. Yes we are better position than during his time here but the club is so much better structured and we are paying comparatively huge wages. 
But the possession at all costs football that goes nowhere is very much the same. 
We are a dream to play against. If you push up high on us we have no outball so you win it back so easily. 
Heres to finding an ‘identity’ in January!!

That's why teams set up deep and time waste in the first half against us. We are a dream to play against. 

That makes complete sense. 

**** sake.

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1 hour ago, nickolas said:

O’Driscoll football!!!

Ive said it many many times. Yes we are better position than during his time here but the club is so much better structured and we are paying comparatively huge wages. 
But the possession at all costs football that goes nowhere is very much the same. 
We are a dream to play against. If you push up high on us we have no outball so you win it back so easily. 
Heres to finding an ‘identity’ in January!!

In general then, why are our possession stats on average <50% or maybe only a bit above this season?

Granted, the games vs Nottingham Forest, Millwall and Blackburn we had a decent amount but it's a myth, often propagated on here- it's a myth that we're a possession heavy side, in the main.

The games vs Nottingham Forest, well they are a relatively counter attacking side and had 10 men for half an hour plus stoppage, Millwall have the lowest possession in the League- but it's a myth this possession thing, backed up by questionable claims.

As to your other points. We are much better structured, no argument. The problem is that so is the competition than those League One and Two perennials, that we largely faced at that time- a few who bounce between Championship and League One and the odd bigger club down there. The other thing about wages, yes they are much higher- but again so is the competition. Then again however, yes we do need to do better- but possession at all costs is a curious description for a side who on average get 50% or thereabouts per game.

All that said, things definitely need to improve- seems shoehorned, just a bit disjointed.

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1 hour ago, poland_exile said:

And just as successful let me hasten to add - I'm a fan of both Wilson and LJ for the record, but let's remember that Wilson failed to deliver what he was meant (i.e. promotion). 

Interestingly we came closest to being promoted when DW adopted a more pragmatic less attractive style of play .

 The fans want inventive attacking football played by skillful exciting players but we don’t have the budget or ,until fairly recently , the environnement to bring in the quality of footballer needed to fulfill our desires. 

We can argue that with LJ’s rather turgid team using one up front was more successful, points wise , than the one using two up front .

 

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12 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Interestingly we came closest to being promoted when DW adopted a more pragmatic less attractive style of play .

 The fans want inventive attacking football played by skillful exciting players but we don’t have the budget or ,until fairly recently , the environnement to bring in the quality of footballer needed to fulfill our desires. 

We can argue that with LJ’s rather turgid team using one up front was more successful, points wise , than the one using two up front .

 

Think we do hasve the players to play better football than we do though.

When all fit:

               Bentley

Hunt Kalas Moore DaSilva

        Nagy Massengo

Brownhill Palmer Eliasson

             Weimann

Now I'll grant there are one or two flaws in that side, quite possibly. However Kalas and Moore are young enough and agile enough to play a higher line. Higher line means the gap between the defence and midfield is less, which makes the side more cohesive.

Nagy we know is good technically, Massengo can maraud a bit more. Brownhill in certain phases can play on the right, in others he can drop back into form a 3. In others, we can shift back into a more compact 4-4-1-1 which can morph into a type of 4-3-3. Not perfect though of course. 

Diedhiou is useful backup but not what we need for fluidity and fluency IMO. Shame about O'Dowda's form for much of this season, as from a tactical standpoint he could be very useful! On paper, Palmer could do very nicely in that shape I think but again, he's not been quite what he was.

High line though, the narrowing of the lines, stopping the ability of the opposition to play between the lines, Baker isn't that, not that type of defender, Williams possibly was but is too old in that aspect, Wright probably never was, though he did well for a time in our 4-4-1-1 but that time has passed and Rowe has been a great stand-in but isn't that type of player, is too old for a high line and isn't even an LB/LWB!

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54 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In general then, why are our possession stats on average <50% or maybe only a bit above this season?

Granted, the games vs Nottingham Forest, Millwall and Blackburn we had a decent amount but it's a myth, often propagated on here- it's a myth that we're a possession heavy side, in the main.

The games vs Nottingham Forest, well they are a relatively counter attacking side and had 10 men for half an hour plus stoppage, Millwall have the lowest possession in the League- but it's a myth this possession thing, backed up by questionable claims.

As to your other points. We are much better structured, no argument. The problem is that so is the competition than those League One and Two perennials, that we largely faced at that time- a few who bounce between Championship and League One and the odd bigger club down there. The other thing about wages, yes they are much higher- but again so is the competition. Then again however, yes we do need to do better- but possession at all costs is a curious description for a side who on average get 50% or thereabouts per game.

All that said, things definitely need to improve- seems shoehorned, just a bit disjointed.

Bristol City's is 48.9%. The lowest it has been since Lee Johnson has been in charge. Bristol City in all of Lee Johnsons time in charge have never been a team that has consistently high possession stats. 

The explanation is Bristol City are not a team that is attempting as a principle to maintain more possession that the opposition. Teams that do want to use an approach that maintains possession play shorter passes and thus have higher passing accuracies as keystone behaviours of their football.

 

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Identity is such a stupid buzzword that LJ uses constantly.......lets be honest, at present we have no identity.  If you asked opposition fans to use a word that typifys our style of play, i would imagine that ' Inconsistent" would rank highly..........and 'Passionate" would not?  The trouble with LJ is that he just talks a good game.....and as the old cliche goes "Actions speak louder than words'.   He has to get it right in the next window, or we are looking at 10th - 14th for this season.  Apart from the obvious goalscorer, we need some character and leadership............and a bit of passion would not go amiss?

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27 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City's is 48.9%. The lowest it has been since Lee Johnson has been in charge. Bristol City in all of Lee Johnsons time in charge have never been a team that has consistently high possession stats. 

The explanation is Bristol City are not a team that is attempting as a principle to maintain more possession that the opposition. Teams that do want to use an approach that maintains possession play shorter passes and thus have higher passing accuracies as keystone behaviours of their football.

 

Yeah, starting to get that impression now- though clearly there are games and teams where the opposition will even at this level have more than us, by dint of being better or being better at it.

That notwithstanding, overall I don't really think it's ideal now given some of the players we have, or who have developed- I think we can do better we should do better, in this respect.

That said, almost forgot- but of course the impact of losing Webster in this respect cannot be overlooked.

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An identity related to possession football would be okay for me but the issue is the team lose possession very quickly.   If Bentley kicks it long to Famara the opposition almost inevitably take possession.  If we try to play it from the back we lose possession as the opposition close us down and players lose the ball and lose it of late in dangerous positions.  The odd thing is we have players who have the quality to retain possession but whether it is team tactics / coaching instructions or something else the ball is lost too easily and there is a lack of ideas to break through the opposition and create chances. 

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9 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Back, sideways, back, forward, back, sideways, back, hoof, back, sideways, sideways, back, hoof, sideways, back.

This is our identity.

More like something suited to Strictly Come Dancing.

Yep LJ thinks we are Barcelona........but we are more akin to Bath City? ??

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3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City's is 48.9%. The lowest it has been since Lee Johnson has been in charge. Bristol City in all of Lee Johnsons time in charge have never been a team that has consistently high possession stats. 

The explanation is Bristol City are not a team that is attempting as a principle to maintain more possession that the opposition. Teams that do want to use an approach that maintains possession play shorter passes and thus have higher passing accuracies as keystone behaviours of their football.

 

They might be attempting to maintain possession, however:

The opposition normally re-take possession, not because we have a valid attempt at goal that breaks down, but because we constantly give it back with sloppy passing. I mean, pub-team quality passing in many games. 

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1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

They might be attempting to maintain possession, however:

The opposition normally re-take possession, not because we have a valid attempt at goal that breaks down, but because we constantly give it back with sloppy passing. I mean, pub-team quality passing in many games. 

Things certainly seem to have got worse in recent weeks.

West Brom's first 3 goals at least in part stemmed from this.

So did Blackburn's 2nd- Millwall's goals, I'd have to look at again and see.

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