Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

Sign in to follow this  
Maesknoll Red

Spurs Investigation

Recommended Posts

Still ongoing into the incident yesterday, but they say they have viewed CCTV footage with lip readers, spoken to people in the area it came from and cannot find any evidence.  Some speculation that maybe the player misheard “cheat, cheat, cheat” (not from Spurs officially, but someone who was there).

Spurs say they are giving the evidence to the police and will continue to investigate, they are speaking to Chelsea players again, to try and clarify things.

Hopefully it will be an instance of misheard chanting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On BBC, a report that government could get involved.

I detest racism just the same as any other form of abuse. But would a government interference be warranted? Should it not be left to the two clubs and local police?

We are still suffering from all the outdated laws that were brought in as a result of the hooligans. Some of which were based on false information by an establishment that closed ranks and lied about Hillsborough and other events.

Finally, I repeat, all forms of abuse are unwanted. If two English clubs could employ two POW's only three years after the Second World War and for them to be totally accepted and respected by the fans, we can't be as bad as we are sometimes accused.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

On BBC, a report that government could get involved.

I detest racism just the same as any other form of abuse. But would a government interference be warranted? Should it not be left to the two clubs and local police?

We are still suffering from all the outdated laws that were brought in as a result of the hooligans. Some of which were based on false information by an establishment that closed ranks and lied about Hillsborough and other events.

Finally, I repeat, all forms of abuse are unwanted. If two English clubs could employ two POW's only three years after the Second World War and for them to be totally accepted and respected by the fans, we can't be as bad as we are sometimes accused.

See OP. Let’s see what actually transpires. 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Arrest has been made

Edit: just realised it’s a Chelsea fan arrested for racial abuse to Son.

Haven't seen this reported anywhere???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Still ongoing into the incident yesterday, but they say they have viewed CCTV footage with lip readers, spoken to people in the area it came from and cannot find any evidence.  Some speculation that maybe the player misheard “cheat, cheat, cheat” (not from Spurs officially, but someone who was there).

Spurs say they are giving the evidence to the police and will continue to investigate, they are speaking to Chelsea players again, to try and clarify things.

Hopefully it will be an instance of misheard chanting.

Lip readers will always be a unreliable source because they can never be sure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Spurs fans are being ‘investigated’ for alleged racist abuse - fair enough, spot on, totally agree - but the gas just get a slap on the wrist fine for homophobic abuse by their fans - why no investigation there? Not highlighting this just cos it’s the gas, but are double standards at play here? I dunno, the modern world is infuriating and confusing but surely the powers that be should treat all forms of abuse equally and investigate them equally? 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only way to deal with racism is to educate racists.  Fining clubs and banning fans will do no good at all.  It’s important to listen to people with racist views and convince them that they are wrong, however difficult that may be.  You can’t change someone’s views by hitting them with a big stick...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The only way to deal with racism is to educate racists.  Fining clubs and banning fans will do no good at all.  It’s important to listen to people with racist views and convince them that they are wrong, however difficult that may be.  You can’t change someone’s views by hitting them with a big stick...

Agree with this. That said, prosecution and bans should be part of the equation too IMO. Case by case basis?

Heard a curious line on the news about 5 mins ago. PFA said racism at football should be treated as a criminal offence or similar.

A curious line, as I assumed it is/would be in any case!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at the game, although not that close to the scene of the "crime".   There was definitely very loud chants of "cheat, cheat, cheat"  and booing of Rudiger after the Son incident.  As we all know there are some players, regardless of race or colour who will get abuse during games based on their own unsporting behaviour.  Rudiger's behaviour was awful during the game. So many on the ball and off the ball incidents where he poked, pushed, obstructed and verbalised  Spurs players.  He is definitely no saint.

  • Like 3
  • Hmmm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

So Spurs fans are being ‘investigated’ for alleged racist abuse - fair enough, spot on, totally agree - but the gas just get a slap on the wrist fine for homophobic abuse by their fans - why no investigation there? Not highlighting this just cos it’s the gas, but are double standards at play here? I dunno, the modern world is infuriating and confusing but surely the powers that be should treat all forms of abuse equally and investigate them equally? 

The homophobic chanting was investigated after being reported, and found to have happened, hence the fine and instructing the club to draw up an action plan.  I believe that the cctv showed that it was a group of younger fans who were responsible (no idea if the images were clear enough for them to be prosecuted), whereas with Spurs, they haven't yet found any hard evidence - hence the ongoing investigation.

  • Like 1
  • Aubergine 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Racism is abhorrent, and makes me sick, and if what allegedly happened to Rudiger is proven, then I would advocate a life ban to the supporter.    I appreciate that I may be going off on a tangent,  and I do not  agree with Mourhino very often.............   But I have to say Rudiger's over the top reaction to Son's tap on his Noggin was sad, embarassing and has no place in professional or amateur football.  IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Redland said:

Will any action by be taken by the police or Chelsea regarding the false allegation made against the Spurs fans? No I thought not. 

What? Why would there be?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

What? Why would there be?

Well would you be happy to be accused of being a racist when there was no evidence to support it? Or would you want action taken against your accuser?

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Investigation closed, neither the police or Spurs could find any evidence of the alleged racist chanting.  

 

2 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Investigation closed, neither the police or Spurs could find any evidence of the alleged racist chanting.  

 

2 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Investigation closed, neither the police or Spurs could find any evidence of the alleged racist chanting.  

At the time I thought it was strange that no other players heard it, the stewards didn’t hear it and professional lip readers studied each face in that section of the crowd and found no evidence of it. It did however distract attention from the cheating by the player involved that contributed to Song being sent off.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least it was investigated properly.

It all seemed very strange at the time, a fair few Spurs fans of different ethnicities, who sat in that area, were posting tweets suggesting that at best, Rougier was mistaken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Redland said:

At the time I thought it was strange that no other players heard it, the stewards didn’t hear it and professional lip readers studied each face in that section of the crowd and found no evidence of it. It did however distract attention from the cheating by the player involved that contributed to Song being sent off.  

The Spurs fans in that area were adamant that they were chanting ‘cheat, cheat, cheat’ and the player concerned misconstrued that as monkey chants ... not sure why this wasn’t more widely reported, or perhaps it was ?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

The Spurs fans in that area were adamant that they were chanting ‘cheat, cheat, cheat’ and the player concerned misconstrued that as monkey chants ... not sure why this wasn’t more widely reported, or perhaps it was ?!

If it was reported fairly at the time that wouldve been okay, but despite many witnesses stating to the contrary, it was portrayed at time as a definite ‘racist’ incident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Well would you be happy to be accused of being a racist when there was no evidence to support it? Or would you want action taken against your accuser?

But a singular person was not accused so that’s absolutely irrelevant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/12/2019 at 22:19, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The only way to deal with racism is to educate racists.  Fining clubs and banning fans will do no good at all.  It’s important to listen to people with racist views and convince them that they are wrong, however difficult that may be.  You can’t change someone’s views by hitting them with a big stick...

Especially when it's not the racist being hit with the stick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

But a singular person was not accused so that’s absolutely irrelevant. 

I wouldn’t say it’s ‘absolutely irrelevant’ - a single entity was accused - a football club, in the same way a person is a single entity - I think if you were wrongly accused of being racist you’d want action taken, yet you don’t think Spurs should do likewise - strange, but everyone’s different, fair enough ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

The Spurs fans in that area were adamant that they were chanting ‘cheat, cheat, cheat’ and the player concerned misconstrued that as monkey chants ... not sure why this wasn’t more widely reported, or perhaps it was ?!

It should have been reported on every news channel for a couple of days imo but it doesn't seem to suit the media narrative that football has a massive racist element (I am not saying there isn't racism in the game, but when you add up all the numbers of fans through turnstiles, and actual racist reports what is the percentage)? You can also bet now that the majority of people will automatically class Spurs fans as racist, and this is some sort of cover up etc etc. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I wouldn’t say it’s ‘absolutely irrelevant’ - a single entity was accused - a football club, in the same way a person is a single entity - I think if you were wrongly accused of being racist you’d want action taken, yet you don’t think Spurs should do likewise - strange, but everyone’s different, fair enough ...

What action? For a player mis-hearing? Possibly Chelsea or Rudiger could be expected to apologise to Spurs but I don’t think Spurs will care. I’d imagine they’d rather not put players off highlighting racism in the future.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

What? Why would there be?

 

3 minutes ago, 054123 said:

If it was reported fairly at the time that wouldve been okay, but despite many witnesses stating to the contrary, it was portrayed at time as a definite ‘racist’ incident.

Absolutely agree. Instead the allegation was reported as a “racist incident” as the headlines on the BBC news, it formed the bulk of the post match analysis with Gary Neville telling us how appalling it was and there were calls for the government to get involved.  We were told how can we criticise other countries when we “clearly have a racist problem”. Now we are told it apparently never happened yet this will get little or no press coverage. The damage to football’s reputation has already been done by this false allegation. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, 054123 said:

If it was reported fairly at the time that wouldve been okay, but despite many witnesses stating to the contrary, it was portrayed at time as a definite ‘racist’ incident.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50797989

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/breaking-tottenham-police-end-investigation-21226485.amp
 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/antonio-rudiger-in-right-frame-21163528.amp

Three articles. All say ‘alleged’. What are you on about?

Edited by Redinthehead
Edited second link to one from after the game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

I felt the use of the word alleged was obligatory given no one had actually conducted an investigation.

Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I felt the use of the word alleged was obligatory given no one had actually conducted an investigation.

Just my opinion.

It’s not really an opinion when you state a fact about how things are reported which is shown not to be how they were reported. 

They would have to legally put alleged but if they wanted to stir things up they could put it in the article and not the headline and get away with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Redinthehead said:

It’s not really an opinion when you state a fact about how things are reported which is shown not to be how they were reported. 

They would have to legally put alleged but if they wanted to stir things up they could put it in the article and not the headline and get away with it.

That’s fair enough.

What do you think Gary Neville will say? 

Edited by 054123

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, 054123 said:

That’s fair enough.

What do you think Gary Neville will say? 

I don’t know. He should probably re-clarify his comments if it’s brought up - given this triggered his rant but he had said something similar a few weeks before so not sure this will have changed much for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

They would have to legally put alleged but if they wanted to stir things up they could put it in the article and not the headline and get away with it.

As any journalist worth their salt will tell you the use of the terms 'allegation', 'alleged' or 'allegedly' provide no form of legal protection. In its use one is stating that an event or action TOOK PLACE yet one has no evidence to substantiate such action or event. If unable to substantiate, the subject to whom one has linked the event or action has every reason to seek recompense.

Consider had the report read: "...there was allegedly no racial abuse emanating from the terraces..." Implies there might have been or often is, or that there was but it wasn't observed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

I don’t know. He should probably re-clarify his comments if it’s brought up - given this triggered his rant but he had said something similar a few weeks before so not sure this will have changed much for him.

His sentiment was sound enough

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

What action? For a player mis-hearing? Possibly Chelsea or Rudiger could be expected to apologise to Spurs but I don’t think Spurs will care. I’d imagine they’d rather not put players off highlighting racism in the future.

What action? If you were wrongly accused of being a racist you don’t know what action you’d want to be taken against your false accuser?! Oh well, let’s end this here, cheers ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

What action? If you were wrongly accused of being a racist you don’t know what action you’d want to be taken against your false accuser?! Oh well, let’s end this here, cheers ...

A fan of the club was accused but not directly. So what action do you propose is taken against Rudiger or Chelsea for this? 

If the Man City fan from the derby proved he wasn’t being racist (which he hasn’t for the avoidance of doubt) - he would have had every right to ask for action given the impact on his life. This has had no impact like this and therefore I don’t understand who you are asking for action to be taken against or for what action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As any journalist worth their salt will tell you the use of the terms 'allegation', 'alleged' or 'allegedly' provide no form of legal protection. In its use one is stating that an event or action TOOK PLACE yet one has no evidence to substantiate such action or event. If unable to substantiate, the subject to whom one has linked the event or action has every reason to seek recompense.

Consider had the report read: "...there was allegedly no racial abuse emanating from the terraces..." Implies there might have been or often is, or that there was but it wasn't observed.

Alleged means someone has alleged that it has happened. A journalist has to make a judgement call on the validity of that claim to an extent but it no way means the event happened. They would have protection as long as they could justify the allegation itself had some evidence behind  it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

Alleged means someone has alleged that it has happened. A journalist has to make a judgement call on the validity of that claim to an extent but it no way means the event happened. They would have protection as long as they could justify the allegation itself had some evidence behind  it.

The trouble is Rudiger has made the motion/allegation that it happened. It was then pretty much taken as fact and reported as that from what I can recall. It is all good and well just adding the word "alleged" in every report but how many made a huge point of saying that this may not have happened on the news channels/newspapers etc? It was all over every media outlet in the morning "yet another alleged racist incident in football". 

Was the same amount of coverage given to say "Rudiger got it wrong and there was NO racist behaviour whatsoever"? We all know the answer to that.....

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wood_red said:

The trouble is Rudiger has made the motion/allegation that it happened. It was then pretty much taken as fact and reported as that from what I can recall. It is all good and well just adding the word "alleged" in every report but how many made a huge point of saying that this may not have happened on the news channels/newspapers etc? It was all over every media outlet in the morning "yet another alleged racist incident in football". 

Was the same amount of coverage given to say "Rudiger got it wrong and there was NO racist behaviour whatsoever"? We all know the answer to that.....

It’s been quite well covered today but no there won’t be the debate there was after the alleged incident. Don’t forget a lot of the fuss was on the basis of it being ‘another’ incident rather than the incident in isolation. 

In terms of the reporting - alleged means it may not have happened - I know people don’t read things like that but that’s how things roll in the country (will stop there before I get political).

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

Alleged means someone has alleged that it has happened. A journalist has to make a judgement call on the validity of that claim to an extent but it no way means the event happened. They would have protection as long as they could justify the allegation itself had some evidence behind  it.

Matters not if one links the 'allegation' to an individual, the event or action referenced de facto is said to have occured, hence why it affords no legal protection. For example, if you reported that BTRFTG is alleged to have punched WeeLee you report that as fact that the assault took place. In case BTRFTG had not then you've repeated a defamation and caused further reputational damage, hence the use of alleged is wholly redundant and affords no protection. Similarly, if you reported that BTRFTG was linked to an incident in which WeeLee was allegedly punched you've created an association for if there was doubt the event had occured why establish the connection in the first place?

Your final sentence appears to agree as much, Journalists might have protection should there be substantive evidence to justify the allegation, which firstly requires the event to have occured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Redinthehead said:

It’s been quite well covered today but no there won’t be the debate there was after the alleged incident. Don’t forget a lot of the fuss was on the basis of it being ‘another’ incident rather than the incident in isolation. 

In terms of the reporting - alleged means it may not have happened - I know people don’t read things like that but that’s how things roll in the country (will stop there before I get political).

 

 

But as there was no racist chanting, no incident actually occurred. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, 054123 said:

That’s fair enough.

What do you think Gary Neville will say? 

I don’t think he really needs to say anything, his sentiments were put forward well and despite this one being unfounded I believe their have been several incidents either at a match or on social media, where footballers have been targeted with racist abuse.

maybe sky will force his hand to take back some of the comments though!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Investigation closed, neither the police or Spurs could find any evidence of the alleged racist chanting.  

So the police has spent presumably a lot of time and resource investigating something that was ultimately found to be false ?

We don't have the "not proven" principle in England so will the accuser be asked to explain himself ? Rudiger can't claim that its a language issue because that chant is universal.

Highly doubtful, and this "incident" may either encourage cynical claims as an act of gamesmanship, or far worse make players who do fall victim of such abuse to keep quiet about it.The initial media outrage made it clear that Spurs supporters were found guilty before being proven innocent.

On balance, I think Rudiger made it up which is shameful.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

So the police has spent presumably a lot of time and resource investigating something that was ultimately found to be false ?

We don't have the "not proven" principle in England so will the accuser be asked to explain himself ? Rudiger can't claim that its a language issue because that chant is universal.

Highly doubtful, and this "incident" may either encourage cynical claims as an act of gamesmanship, or far worse make players who do fall victim of such abuse to keep quiet about it.The initial media outrage made it clear that Spurs supporters were found guilty before being proven innocent.

On balance, I think Rudiger made it up which is shameful.

 

Its not been found to be false at all.

Chances are it did happen, but no one is speaking up. It does happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Its not been found to be false at all.

Chances are it did happen, but no one is speaking up. It does happen.

I disagree, if someone has been shouting the monkey chant then surely with the amount of cameras around it would be spotted (you don't need lip readers surely as it would be obvious). If Rudiger did hear it from the pitch I find it hard to accept nobody else heard it, and as for nobody reporting it I also cannot accept that, unless Spurs has a huge element of racists and they were all sat in the same area which is very very doubtful. People get offended by the smallest things and report them nowadays, to think that probably a couple of hundred people have heard that and not a single one reported it, I just cannot believe it for one minute. If just one single person reported it and they just couldn't find the culprit it would be reported.

Either Rudiger has made it up after getting some stick, or he has misheard the "cheat, cheat, cheat" chant.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Its not been found to be false at all.

Chances are it did happen, but no one is speaking up. It does happen.

No one spoke up in a crowd of that size with cameras all over the place too ?

Why are the chances that it did happen by the way ?

I am sure that Rudiger has suffered abuse in his life and career, but perhaps, just perhaps he wasn't in this case, and his claims were false ?

He appears to have been the only one who may have misheard the chant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, wood_red said:

The trouble is Rudiger has made the motion/allegation that it happened. It was then pretty much taken as fact and reported as that from what I can recall. It is all good and well just adding the word "alleged" in every report but how many made a huge point of saying that this may not have happened on the news channels/newspapers etc? It was all over every media outlet in the morning "yet another alleged racist incident in football". 

Was the same amount of coverage given to say "Rudiger got it wrong and there was NO racist behaviour whatsoever"? We all know the answer to that.....

Tottenham have not said Rudiger got it wrong and there was no racist behaviour. Tottenham and the Police have said they have found no evidence to either confirm or contradict the accusation. Tottenham have made it clear themselves that they do not know whether it happened or not, and are not accusing Rudiger or lying or being mistaken. They have just said they have not found any evidence so cannot take further action. 

Edited by LondonBristolian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...