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old_eastender

LJ - simple choice Stick or Twist

LJ - simple choice Stick or Twist?  

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8 minutes ago, !james said:

Lost the dressing room! - check. 

Nearly full meltdown bingo. 

I did not say that . Lost the dressing room is newspaper talk . But there are issues . Heard first time a month ago . Now from multiple people . I don’t want to say what they say as I’ve not heard directly. But issues there are . We are not getting the best from our squad that I think is obvious 

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1 minute ago, cityloyal473 said:

Never ever thought he was the man for the job, but at this stage I'd keep him til the end of the season but would not give him a single penny to spend.  

The action or lack of in Jan could speak volumes.

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Just now, billywedlock said:

I did not say that . Lost the dressing room is newspaper talk . But there are issues . Heard first time a month ago . Now from multiple people . I don’t want to say what they say as I’ve not heard directly. But issues there are . We are not getting the best from our squad that I think is obvious 

Anything to do with Williams arrival?

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3 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

I did not say that . Lost the dressing room is newspaper talk . But there are issues . Heard first time a month ago . Now from multiple people . I don’t want to say what they say as I’ve not heard directly. But issues there are . We are not getting the best from our squad that I think is obvious 

unsubstantiated rumours are good enough for me 👌

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Got to go, hopefully there is a replacement available before the window closes.  Johnson is tactically inept, I don’t believe the players are on board with his bullshit, it can’t be a coincidence that the squad has improved over the 4 seasons, but we have endured 4 seasons of his streaky performance and suffered the most boring home form for a very long time in the last 2 seasons - the fans are entitled to demand better and the owner should reward the fans for their loyalty.

Current form shows that we will not make the playoffs, but should the unexpected happen, junior will not be able to inspire the team to do any better than we did in 2008!  Which is bloody criminal, 2008 most of our squad would have been moved on if we had succeeded - difference now is that the Johnson currently in charge is not a leader or inspirational! 

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6 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Got to go, hopefully there is a replacement available before the window closes.  Johnson is tactically inept, I don’t believe the players are on board with his bullshit, it can’t be a coincidence that the squad has improved over the 4 seasons, but we have endured 4 seasons of his streaky performance and suffered the most boring home form for a very long time in the last 2 seasons - the fans are entitled to demand better and the owner should reward the fans for their loyalty.

Current form shows that we will not make the playoffs, but should the unexpected happen, junior will not be able to inspire the team to do any better than we did in 2008!  Which is bloody criminal, 2008 most of our squad would have been moved on if we had succeeded - difference now is that the Johnson currently in charge is not a leader or inspirational! 

Where I disagree is the first sentence. We could very, very easily do a lot worse than Lee Johnson so no decision should be made until a replacement is lined up. But now is the time for the board to be sounding people out and getting a clear idea of who is willing to be in the frame.

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1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

Stickig for now but five winnable games are coming up. Less than three wins from now up until 5pm on the day of the Barnsley fixture and I supect I will vote the other way.

Surely today was a "winnable game" on paper? I wish I felt as optimistic as you. 

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8 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Anything to do with Williams arrival?

No it was not that . It is not player specific . As  I say I ignored it a month ago , every year I hear similar , it’s football life . But now I’m getting the same from multiple non related sources . Not singing off the same hymn sheet is the summary . Just a blip , I have no idea . Normal stuff in a club ? Maybe ? Next month will be interesting. But , and it is a but , everyone feels they can do better . Much better . 

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Just now, City_USA said:

Surely today was a "winnable game" on paper? I wish I felt as optimistic as you. 

You read me wrong. I am pessimistic rather than optimistic and feel snap decisions easily end with the wrong manager in place. A month ago there was no clear reason to change the manager so no plans will be in place. Five games gives us time - if LJ gets our form back then all is well. If not, we can plan a replacement. I am starting to think we can do better but that is not to say ANY new manager would be an improvement.

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SL undoubtedly will stick. 

However, when he does finally appoint a new manager can he be proven, successful and recognises from Day 1 that you need leaders in a team, emphasis on quality not quantity, create a team not a collection of individuals and give them credit when they win with the manager taking responsibility for defeat, a strong motivator, someone who lets the players express themselves rather than straight jacketing them with plans, systems and tactics.

Fundamentally, someone who appreciates that you need power, pace and passion to get a Club like ours into the Premiership. Leave the tippy-tippy stuff to the Barcelona’s of this world who can afford the best. We can’t, hence why Charlton Reserves can beat us. 

Frankly, I’d be worried if we drew The Slags in the next round of the Cup. I doubt, however, we are going to get past Shrewsbury. 

 

Edited by RedRock

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6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Where I disagree is the first sentence. We could very, very easily do a lot worse than Lee Johnson so no decision should be made until a replacement is lined up. But now is the time for the board to be sounding people out and getting a clear idea of who is willing to be in the frame.

I'd have expected Ashton to have long since had feelers out for the next manager...and I'd be surprised if he hadn't. It's his job, or should be.

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5 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

No it was not that . It is not player specific . As  I say I ignored it a month ago , every year I hear similar , it’s football life . But now I’m getting the same from multiple non related sources . Not singing off the same hymn sheet is the summary . Just a blip , I have no idea . Normal stuff in a club ? Maybe ? Next month will be interesting. But , and it is a but , everyone feels they can do better . Much better . 

I think that the outgoings this January will be as telling as the incomings. I've sensed from body language that some players are not enjoying their football with us. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of going to games in person so am just going by what I see on BCTV but as in any sport or activity, if you're not enjoying yourself you won't perform at your best

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Haven’t voted because I think it depends entirely on the replacement.

Replace with Hughton? Yes

Sack him without knowing who you may or may not be able to get? No.

For me he should only go if a quality replacement is already waiting in the wings.

 

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Ufortunately, as mentioned by many, Steve will stick but we need a change IMHO. For one, I'm getting really bored with LJ's football (we haven't really been at it for most games this season if we're being honest) and his excuses are really quite baffling.

I'd be looking up 'Hughton. C' in the phone book if I were Ashton. 

Edited by Ska Junkie

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6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

You read me wrong. I am pessimistic rather than optimistic and feel snap decisions easily end with the wrong manager in place. A month ago there was no clear reason to change the manager so no plans will be in place. Five games gives us time - if LJ gets our form back then all is well. If not, we can plan a replacement. I am starting to think we can do better but that is not to say ANY new manager would be an improvement.

Gotcha. Clearly I misunderstood. I would agree about not changing for the sake of it. I would love to see a stronger character in charge that has a history of success and would demand more respect from the players. I like LJ as a person and feel like he has the passion and desire for success he just doesn't have the skill set to get the best out of high quality players...yet. Right guy a few seasons too early. IMO of course

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7 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I'd have expected Ashton to have long since had feelers out for the next manager...and I'd be surprised if he hadn't. It's his job, or should be.

Absolutely. But there are two different questions. The first, general one is “who would be a great Manager who would hypothetically be interested in this job if it became available at the right moment?” and the second more immediate one is “who would be a great Manager who would actually take the job if it became available in the next few weeks?” I am sure Mark Ashton has a general list but now is the time to move from the hypothetical to who would make the move right now.

1 minute ago, City_USA said:

Gotcha. Clearly I misunderstood. I would agree about not changing for the sake of it. I would love to see a stronger character in charge that has a history of success and would demand more respect from the players. I like LJ as a person and feel like he has the passion and desire for success he just doesn't have the skill set to get the best out of high quality players...yet. Right guy a few seasons too early. IMO of course

I think “Right Guy a few seasons too early” is utterly bang on.

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2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Absolutely. But there are two different questions. The first, general one is “who would be a great Manager who would hypothetically be interested in this job if it became available at the right moment?” and the second more immediate one is “who would be a great Manager who would actually take the job if it became available in the next few weeks?” I am sure Mark Ashton has a general list but now is the time to move from the hypothetical to who would make the move right now.

Agreed. Now - and I'm quite sure that this will appear daft - but if I was Steve Lansdown (and recognising that this is not for one moment what I believe he will do after the Coppell debacle) I would ask Ashton for a list of the world's finest managers currently out of work - literally the finest - and call each, offering riches to last a lifetime and spelling out a burning desire to get Bristol City on the map of world football. I'd aim as high as it was possible to aim. A Bielsa level appointment.

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Plans will have been made for incoming and outgoing players for the next transfer window which opens in less than a week. 
 

Now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

We need to follow  the plans in place and review the situation at the end of the season.

Doing it now could jeopardise our very place in this league .

It is looking like we’ll finish, once again in mid table, of course a big disappointment after such a promising start .

LJ must have answers at the end of the season or we may just see SL’s patience finally give out.

 

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32 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Where I disagree is the first sentence. We could very, very easily do a lot worse than Lee Johnson so no decision should be made until a replacement is lined up. But now is the time for the board to be sounding people out and getting a clear idea of who is willing to be in the frame.

I am pretty sure the club monitor possible replacement coaches as much as they do players .

They will have a list .

However SL didn’t sack LJ when we were on a ten match losing streak and he won’t act after four losses on the trot .

 

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2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am pretty sure the club monitor possible replacement coaches as much as they do players .

They will have a list .

However SL didn’t sack LJ when we were on a ten match losing streak and he won’t act after four losses on the trot .

 

I guess you are right, but it’s not just the results, it’s the manner of the results, if the football on offer continues to be uninspiring, disjointed and boring, then the attendances will start to drop, at some point, that will trigger a reaction.

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30 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Where I disagree is the first sentence. We could very, very easily do a lot worse than Lee Johnson so no decision should be made until a replacement is lined up. But now is the time for the board to be sounding people out and getting a clear idea of who is willing to be in the frame.

Of course there are worse managers than LJ. Wrong question. Are there better ones, given are current players and financial situation? I say yes, there probably are. We have loyally stuck with him and his inadequacies largely because of his playing time with us and also the success brought to the club by his dad. But that was a different time and also often in a different league. We need to set nostalgia aside and move on. Timing is a different matter. I would hope the "sounding out" is already happening. I doubt we will get relegated this season but I surely don't believe we will be promoted. Conclusion therefore, the sooner the better.

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A new manager now would get my vote personally. He has had more than enough resources and all that now seems to be happening is a backward spiral of rubbish. Thanks but goodbye Lee.

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2 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I guess you are right, but it’s not just the results, it’s the manner of the results, if the football on offer continues to be uninspiring, disjointed and boring, then the attendances will start to drop, at some point, that will trigger a reaction.

...the reaction being to blame supporters for not buying into the 'project' and giving LJ a further contract extension...

...or maybe giving JL the job just to spite us!

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Tough one for sure. LJ has given us progression, stability and some really good times. However when it's bad.... It's really very bad. I think it's a lack of maturity on his part and a lack of managerial experience of how to turn it round. Does he shout and scream at them? Put his arm around them? 

The ethos of identifying young hungry players, training them, using them in order to make a significant investment on profit is clearly working. That's how I think SL will judge him. 

We will judge him on results and performance. 

I will stay in the fence. I think it should be noted that I think primarily Mark Ashton identifies these players. He would be a bigger loss. 

As someone else has suggested,  perhaps Mark Ashton should now be identifing managerial options. 

Stevo

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Plans will have been made for incoming and outgoing players for the next transfer window which opens in less than a week. 
 

Now is not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water.

We need to follow  the plans in place and review the situation at the end of the season.

Doing it now could jeopardise our very place in this league .

It is looking like we’ll finish, once again in mid table, of course a big disappointment after such a promising start .

LJ must have answers at the end of the season or we may just see SL’s patience finally give out.

 

I think that's a fair summary and probably not far off what will happen.

If by the end of the season we've not progressed in terms of position or entertainment then he'll be in trouble.

No chance he goes before that unless we fall off a cliff (and no, a run of 4 defeats isn't falling off a cliff, as much as some want it to be).

Edited by Northern Red

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The Radio Bristol post match interview. Anyone else detect something a bit odd about it.

He said something along the lines of Bristol City has to stick together, the fans, the chairman (I hope i didn't imagine that bit)

Something about it made me think he thinks he isn't going to get away with another 8 game streak.

It's probably me, but it sounded slightly different from the other interviews.

Edited by AppyDAZE

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Stick for now but next 4 or 5 games are critical. Poor results in those and we"ll looking down rather than up. 

It's frustrating that the same things just keep happening too many times for it to be chance. We do well before Christmas. We do well when we have lots of injuries and the 11 more or less pick themselves. There are inexplicable collapses in form, confidence and performances. Too many signings that never even get a chance where other clubs seem to pick up lower league gems and integrate them seamlessly. 

Doubly frustrating this season because after the Fulham game, with almost all the injuries coming back and seemingly an attacking lineup and tactics decided, we were in a great position but its all fallen apart yet again. 

Still at present 10th isnt disastrous at this point of the season but results need to pick up again pretty damn quickly or the Playoffs will be gone and we'll be looking over our shoulder. There's usually a team in most leagues that drop like a stone..... 

 

 

 

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Right , putting aside that anything that we think is pointless, until Steve Lansdown runs out of patience, what I think is the likely scenario.

Johnson will get until the end of the season to have a go. I think he will be supported in January and also given an idea that promotion has to be the goal. If he then falls short of even playoffs, he will be moved on. While we have improved every year, we still throw away good positions by these ridiculous loosing runs. With the Rugby and Basketball doing well, I've no doubt he (Lansdown) would like to get promoted. I also think it has made sense to give the Manager a chance to build over time, chopping and changing rarely works (unless you're Watford). BUT, there has to come a time when ambition has to come over loyalty. 

 

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It's clearly not going to happen, regardless of what we think.

I remember the Fulham game a few years ago where we were in one of Johnson's winless streaks, seemingly heading back to League 1 and Fulham absolutely tore us to pieces. The fans were voicing their displeasure then but it fell on deaf ears. He survived, as he will this time and he will the next. There is no way SL will remove Johnson by choice, absolutely no way. 

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7 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Stickig for now but five winnable games are coming up. Less than three wins from now up until 5pm on the day of the Barnsley fixture and I supect I will vote the other way.

I really don't fancy our chances v Brentford- do you?

Happily take a point vs them now. Have you seen their form etc since late September? Their displays...32 pts from 16 games, 32 goals in 16 games- went to WBA just before Christmas and matched, if not outplayed them. In recent times any points we've gained vs them have been a tad fortunate.

Luton, Shrewsbury, Wigan and Barnsley certainly all winnable. Though both of the latter seem to be picking up a bit, but winnable all the same!

4 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

It's clearly not going to happen, regardless of what we think.

I remember the Fulham game a few years ago where we were in one of Johnson's winless streaks, seemingly heading back to League 1 and Fulham absolutely tore us to pieces. The fans were voicing their displeasure then but it fell on deaf ears. He survived, as he will this time and he will the next. There is no way SL will remove Johnson by choice, absolutely no way. 

Yep, Johnson out chants were pretty evident after the 2nd that night- horrible Adam Matthews error IIRC.

Playing 2 in CM, vs the best or one of the top 2-3 possession sides in the League wasn't too clever either that night...nor was playing Hegeler as one of those 2. In a 3? Absolutely- sadly LJ seems not to learn.

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All I can say- and I'm not defending LJ, but our hiring of decent to proven managers in recent times okay the last decade, has not been a real success.

1999...Pulis- unsuitable on many levels agreed, but a good record nonetheless at varied clubs- terrible!

2010- Coppell. Well let's be honest, he joined or was announced in March 2010 was it- we WERE a solid top half/midtable Championship side. We provewd it with 4th, 10th, 10th- the man to take us to the next level! Added experiienced players such as Hunt- say what you will and we all know how he did here, at Bolton he was a very solid PL upper half RB for a few years and wasn't excessively old, Stewart- strong Championship defender, Stead- was actually quite good, Pitman- underused but quigte good and of course England's World Cup Keeper- Over the hill at 40 but still OMG, ENGLAND'S NO.1! An appointment to take us to the next level...not only quit us after a League and a Cup game but quit football entirely!!

😂😂

2013- O'Driscoll. Once more, he was terrible for us but did genuinely great work at Doncaster, harshly sacked by Notitngham Forest who were, oh about where they are now after a win on Boxing Day and solid at Bournemouth. His home record with us until April Fools Day was virtually quite good- think we won all but 2 of his first 2-3 months worth of home games, drawing the other 2.

Still that's two respected- one respected and one proven, within not that long, just imploded within months of joining us!!

Them and their track records were just in ruins within a few months...incredible really.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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5 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

The Radio Bristol post match interview. Anyone else detect something a bit odd about it.

He said something along the lines of Bristol City has to stick together, the fans, the chairman (I hope i didn't imagine that bit)

Something about it made me think he thinks he isn't going to get away with another 8 game streak.

It's probably me, but it sounded slightly different from the other interviews.

I can’t remember exactly but it was weird and dithery. I think he started referring to himself in the third person at one stage referencing his streaky nature.  
 

I took the pulling together as a little pop at the “pressure” the home crowd will put on... he acknowledged it’s been not good enough at home.  

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

All I can say- and I'm not defending LJ, but our hiring of decent to proven managers in recent times okay the last decade, has not been a real success.

1999...Pulis- unsuitable on many levels agreed, but a good record nonetheless at varied clubs- terrible!

2010- Coppell. Well let's be honest, he joined or was announced in March 2010 was it- we WERE a solid top half/midtable Championship side. We provewd it with 4th, 10th, 10th- the man to take us to the next level! Added experiienced players such as Hunt- say what you will and we all know how he did here, at Bolton he was a very solid PL upper half RB for a few years and wasn't excessively old, Stewart- strong Championship defender, Stead- was actually quite good, Pitman- underused but quigte good and of course England's World Cup Keeper- Over the hill at 40 but still OMG, ENGLAND'S NO.1! An appointment to take us to the next level...not only quit us after a League and a Cup game but quit football entirely!!

😂😂

2013- O'Driscoll. Once more, he was terrible for us but did genuinely great work at Doncaster, harshly sacked by Notitngham Forest who were, oh about where they are now after a win on Boxing Day and solid at Bournemouth. His home record with us until April Fools Day was virtually quite good- think we won all but 2 of his first 2-3 months worth of home games, drawing the other 2.

Still that's two respected- one respected and one proven, within not that long, just imploded within months of joining us!!

weve has some dud up and coming managers too: Mcinnes and Tinnion. 

There was one successful, experienced manager here: Steve Cotterill. 

Steve Lansdown didn’t appoint him but the board led by Keith Dawn did. 

I’m pretty sure the structure of the club means that could now never happen... more’s the pity. 

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1 minute ago, Mendip City said:

weve has some dud up and coming managers too: Mcinnes and Tinnion. 

There was one successful, experienced manager here: Steve Cotterill. 

Steve Lansdown didn’t appoint him but the board led by Keith Dawn did. 

I’m pretty sure the structure of the club means that could now never happen... more’s the pity. 

I know- I'm not denying this, I'm just saying aht successful/proven/respected managver isn't the panacea it might seem.

However, with the much improved infrastructure, resources etc maybe it is the way to go- I dunno.

Cotts was successful and paid off in a big way- in League One, where we were the big fish and had the pick of players, save for Sheffield United and possibly not even that when it comes to the pick! I think impatience possibly got the better of him here, his financial resources were always going to improve a year, or two down the line looking back now.

Interesting, how do you mean? In terms of SL's club SL's rules and his rules only?

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9 hours ago, oldstandrobin said:

Go please............stop pussyfooting as a football club, we are always the bridesmaid, only decent time in last  20 years was with Cotts

Each to their own of course, however.

This is an interesting statement and possibly one that fails to take account of many factors. That bit aside, I'm assuming you didn't enjoy a fair chunk of the era referred to/described below?

I can only assume you were away for the steady then in some ways thrilling rise from bottom of League One September 2005 and indeed rock bottom in December 2005, up to top 2/top 3 of the Championship about 2 years later! Was brilliant...a great feelgood factor around the ground and our highest League position in a generation.

Throw in a good JPT Cup run and an FA Cup run-  then a near miss vs Man City when they were starting to get alright under Sven in 2007, and some notable scalps in the League and it certainly was not a bad 3-4 years under GJ!!

That's before we even debate the standards and the differences in these when comparing eras.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I know- I'm not denying this, I'm just saying aht successful/proven/respected managver isn't the panacea it might seem.

However, with the much improved infrastructure, resources etc maybe it is the way to go- I dunno.

Cotts was successful and paid off in a big way- in League One, where we were the big fish and had the pick of players, save for Sheffield United and possibly not even that when it comes to the pick! I think impatience possibly got the better of him here, his financial resources were always going to improve a year, or two down the line looking back now.

Interesting, how do you mean? In terms of SL's club SL's rules and his rules only?

Yeah SL’s club and his rules. Not club actually.... business. I just get the impression he’s still very hands-on and very much in control. I don’t get the impression MA or LJ have any real authority when it comes to sanctioning signings. I could be wrong. 

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1 minute ago, Mendip City said:

Yeah SL’s club and his rules. Not club actually.... business. I just get the impression he’s still very hands-on and very much in control. I don’t get the impression MA or LJ have any real authority when it comes to sanctioning signings. I could be wrong. 

I could be wrong too but I always thought our decline in the Championship to bottom of League One, kicked in when SL took less of a hands on approach and handed over more responsibility to JL. Coincidence or not, it didn't seem ideal...

I thought SL took less of a hands on approach since his move to Guernsey and just with age- could be wrong.

That bit is very interesting though- the bolded bit- then again, agents and transfer policy can pay off somewhat but Im unsure about the signing sanctioning- depends if we're talking individuals or wages really, clearly the latter might need highup sign off? Maybe it's also increasingly the way of the modern game, would be interesting to see how clubs do it.

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Stick, for now. Two big home games coming up. Two unconvincing performances, or fail to win both and I think it's time to shake hands and move on.

That's not to say LJ hasn't been a success, he's guided us from near the bottom of the Championship near the top in incremental improvements which is no mean feat, but the players look clueless at the moment and you start to wonder whether another manager would give Eliasson quite so much time to watch his team-mates from the bench, for instance.

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I chose stick because I don’t want us to sack him with no plan, or just get any old replacement in.

he has shown he can (eventually) turn around a streak and we are better placed than this time last season so if he does turn it around then we still have a season to salvage. Recent performances against WBA and Fulham prove we CAN perform so we’re not a complete lost cause right now

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11 hours ago, cityloyal473 said:

Anything to do with Williams arrival?

No. Williams has been a model pro in the dressing room.

Players are feeling they are not being allowed to play to their strengths by instruction and is detrimental to the team and morale.

Attempts have been made to circumvent the 'chain of command' and relay these concerns, but at the moment, nobody wants to listen or act, leading to more frustration.

Calling players out by name has not gone down well with some, whilst the person instructing those players to play in a certain way that is not their natural style, has been up to now, exempt from scrutiny from above.

And there has been no sign of that changing as of this moment.

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