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Seen it all before


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Some things never change. I have heard it all before. LJ out. Sod out. McInnes out. Doherty out Houghton out . Osman out . Dicks out .  Whichever manager we have ever had will never take us to the promised land, apart from Dicks of whom the same was said before he did take us up ( and down again). So all those predictions over the years have proved to be correct.

We ( indeed the whole of the West Country ) has had a total of 4 years of top division football since the First World War - FACT 

Every team  except Millwall and Barnsley have spent more seasons in the top division than we have in the last 100 years- FACT

Every team in the championship except Preston and Brentford have been in the top division since we were last there - FACT

Plymouth is the biggest city never to have played in the top division- FACT

Exeter is the biggest city never to have played in the second tier - FACT

Why do we expect anything different ? Look at our fixtures and compare them with 50 years ago.- Blackburn Cardiff Hull Huddersfield Preston Millwall Charlton Middlesbrough Sheffield Wednesday Birmingham etc etc - pretty well the same. Of course, there are some teams in the Premier League who are smaller than us - Bournemouth ( definitely) Brighton Watford ( arguably) and good luck to them, , but in a few years they will come down again like Swansea and Wigan have done. Of course, for every one of those, there is a Sunderland Ipswich Coventry or Bolton who are below their “ natural” place in the order of things , but they will all come back - eventually. 

We all hope to get to the Premier League, at least for a while, ( although if/ when we do I hope we don’t go down 3 seasons in a row like the last time) , but it isn’t easy playing in a division when the great majority of teams are unquestionably bigger than us, and nearly all of  whom have a greater history. Bournemouth and Brighton have shown that it can be done.

What is it that causes us ( and all West Country teams) to apparently underachieve ? . Players come and go. Managers come and go. Directors come and go. Owners come and go, but for the most part things stay the same.

The only thing that never changes are the fans. However, the majority of those who are quick to come out and criticise after a few bad results, but remain quiet when the team are winning, refuse to even consider the possibility that their anxiety, negativity and pessimism may be  a factor in what many perceive to be the club’s chronic underachievement over decades. They are affronted they anyone should even suggest that this might be so.

It is funny how occasionally things from one’s childhood occasionally stick in the memory. I remember it clearly . Coventry at home in January 1967. We drew 2-2 with a team which won the Second Division that season. Some fans were moaning like they do now about City’s lack of achievement. I can clearly remember saying to my mate that if City were ever to win the First Division (as unlikely then as it is now) , some fans would say that this team will never win the European Cup !

Some things never change. I have heard it all before.

 

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6 minutes ago, Aberdeen Pete's Dad said:

Some things never change. I have heard it all before. LJ out. Sod out. McInnes out. Doherty out Houghton out . Osman out . Dicks out .  Whichever manager we have ever had will never take us to the promised land, apart from Dicks of whom the same was said before he did take us up ( and down again). So all those predictions over the years have proved to be correct.

We ( indeed the whole of the West Country ) has had a total of 4 years of top division football since the First World War - FACT 

Every team  except Millwall and Barnsley have spent more seasons in the top division than we have in the last 100 years- FACT

Every team in the championship except Preston and Brentford have been in the top division since we were last there - FACT

Plymouth is the biggest city never to have played in the top division- FACT

Exeter is the biggest city never to have played in the second tier - FACT

Why do we expect anything different ? Look at our fixtures and compare them with 50 years ago.- Blackburn Cardiff Hull Huddersfield Preston Millwall Charlton Middlesbrough Sheffield Wednesday Birmingham etc etc - pretty well the same. Of course, there are some teams in the Premier League who are smaller than us - Bournemouth ( definitely) Brighton Watford ( arguably) and good luck to them, , but in a few years they will come down again like Swansea and Wigan have done. Of course, for every one of those, there is a Sunderland Ipswich Coventry or Bolton who are below their “ natural” place in the order of things , but they will all come back - eventually. 

We all hope to get to the Premier League, at least for a while, ( although if/ when we do I hope we don’t go down 3 seasons in a row like the last time) , but it isn’t easy playing in a division when the great majority of teams are unquestionably bigger than us, and nearly all of  whom have a greater history. Bournemouth and Brighton have shown that it can be done.

What is it that causes us ( and all West Country teams) to apparently underachieve ? . Players come and go. Managers come and go. Directors come and go. Owners come and go, but for the most part things stay the same.

The only thing that never changes are the fans. However, the majority of those who are quick to come out and criticise after a few bad results, but remain quiet when the team are winning, refuse to even consider the possibility that their anxiety, negativity and pessimism may be  a factor in what many perceive to be the club’s chronic underachievement over decades. They are affronted they anyone should even suggest that this might be so.

It is funny how occasionally things from one’s childhood occasionally stick in the memory. I remember it clearly . Coventry at home in January 1967. We drew 2-2 with a team which won the Second Division that season. Some fans were moaning like they do now about City’s lack of achievement. I can clearly remember saying to my mate that if City were ever to win the First Division (as unlikely then as it is now) , some fans would say that this team will never win the European Cup !

Some things never change. I have heard it all before.

 

Merry Christmas LEE, close door on your way OUT

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10 minutes ago, Aberdeen Pete's Dad said:

Some things never change. I have heard it all before. LJ out. Sod out. McInnes out. Doherty out Houghton out . Osman out . Dicks out .  Whichever manager we have ever had will never take us to the promised land, apart from Dicks of whom the same was said before he did take us up ( and down again). So all those predictions over the years have proved to be correct.

We ( indeed the whole of the West Country ) has had a total of 4 years of top division football since the First World War - FACT 

Every team  except Millwall and Barnsley have spent more seasons in the top division than we have in the last 100 years- FACT

Every team in the championship except Preston and Brentford have been in the top division since we were last there - FACT

Plymouth is the biggest city never to have played in the top division- FACT

Exeter is the biggest city never to have played in the second tier - FACT

Why do we expect anything different ? Look at our fixtures and compare them with 50 years ago.- Blackburn Cardiff Hull Huddersfield Preston Millwall Charlton Middlesbrough Sheffield Wednesday Birmingham etc etc - pretty well the same. Of course, there are some teams in the Premier League who are smaller than us - Bournemouth ( definitely) Brighton Watford ( arguably) and good luck to them, , but in a few years they will come down again like Swansea and Wigan have done. Of course, for every one of those, there is a Sunderland Ipswich Coventry or Bolton who are below their “ natural” place in the order of things , but they will all come back - eventually. 

We all hope to get to the Premier League, at least for a while, ( although if/ when we do I hope we don’t go down 3 seasons in a row like the last time) , but it isn’t easy playing in a division when the great majority of teams are unquestionably bigger than us, and nearly all of  whom have a greater history. Bournemouth and Brighton have shown that it can be done.

What is it that causes us ( and all West Country teams) to apparently underachieve ? . Players come and go. Managers come and go. Directors come and go. Owners come and go, but for the most part things stay the same.

The only thing that never changes are the fans. However, the majority of those who are quick to come out and criticise after a few bad results, but remain quiet when the team are winning, refuse to even consider the possibility that their anxiety, negativity and pessimism may be  a factor in what many perceive to be the club’s chronic underachievement over decades. They are affronted they anyone should even suggest that this might be so.

It is funny how occasionally things from one’s childhood occasionally stick in the memory. I remember it clearly . Coventry at home in January 1967. We drew 2-2 with a team which won the Second Division that season. Some fans were moaning like they do now about City’s lack of achievement. I can clearly remember saying to my mate that if City were ever to win the First Division (as unlikely then as it is now) , some fans would say that this team will never win the European Cup !

Some things never change. I have heard it all before.

 

You're absolutely right. I remember when AD was in charge and the team struggling in Div 2 (including losing at Charlton when they were bottom of the league by a mile) and the fans then were just the same, luckily the board at the time took no notice and we had the best seasons in the club's latter day history. Groundhog day.

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8 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

You're absolutely right. I remember when AD was in charge and the team struggling in Div 2 (including losing at Charlton when they were bottom of the league by a mile) and the fans then were just the same, luckily the board at the time took no notice and we had the best seasons in the club's latter day history. Groundhog day.

Alan Dicks built a side, he had a plan.

He didn’t have millions of pounds to play with, he didn’t change the team on a weekly basis, he didn’t buy in about 50 players and still not be satisfied, and he didn’t moan about lack of leaders having signed those 50 players himself.

 

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31 minutes ago, Aberdeen Pete's Dad said:

Some things never change. I have heard it all before. LJ out. Sod out. McInnes out. Doherty out Houghton out . Osman out . Dicks out .  Whichever manager we have ever had will never take us to the promised land, apart from Dicks of whom the same was said before he did take us up ( and down again). So all those predictions over the years have proved to be correct.

We ( indeed the whole of the West Country ) has had a total of 4 years of top division football since the First World War - FACT 

Every team  except Millwall and Barnsley have spent more seasons in the top division than we have in the last 100 years- FACT

Every team in the championship except Preston and Brentford have been in the top division since we were last there - FACT

Plymouth is the biggest city never to have played in the top division- FACT

Exeter is the biggest city never to have played in the second tier - FACT

Why do we expect anything different ? Look at our fixtures and compare them with 50 years ago.- Blackburn Cardiff Hull Huddersfield Preston Millwall Charlton Middlesbrough Sheffield Wednesday Birmingham etc etc - pretty well the same. Of course, there are some teams in the Premier League who are smaller than us - Bournemouth ( definitely) Brighton Watford ( arguably) and good luck to them, , but in a few years they will come down again like Swansea and Wigan have done. Of course, for every one of those, there is a Sunderland Ipswich Coventry or Bolton who are below their “ natural” place in the order of things , but they will all come back - eventually. 

We all hope to get to the Premier League, at least for a while, ( although if/ when we do I hope we don’t go down 3 seasons in a row like the last time) , but it isn’t easy playing in a division when the great majority of teams are unquestionably bigger than us, and nearly all of  whom have a greater history. Bournemouth and Brighton have shown that it can be done.

What is it that causes us ( and all West Country teams) to apparently underachieve ? . Players come and go. Managers come and go. Directors come and go. Owners come and go, but for the most part things stay the same.

The only thing that never changes are the fans. However, the majority of those who are quick to come out and criticise after a few bad results, but remain quiet when the team are winning, refuse to even consider the possibility that their anxiety, negativity and pessimism may be  a factor in what many perceive to be the club’s chronic underachievement over decades. They are affronted they anyone should even suggest that this might be so.

It is funny how occasionally things from one’s childhood occasionally stick in the memory. I remember it clearly . Coventry at home in January 1967. We drew 2-2 with a team which won the Second Division that season. Some fans were moaning like they do now about City’s lack of achievement. I can clearly remember saying to my mate that if City were ever to win the First Division (as unlikely then as it is now) , some fans would say that this team will never win the European Cup !

Some things never change. I have heard it all before.

 

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The reason why the West teams are ‘soft’ is that we haven’t got a ruthless streak. We’re happy to be also-rans. 

Worked in various places in the UK. Spent most of my time in the South West telling people that  ‘it’s ok’ simply isn’t good enough. 

 

 We need a ‘ruthless’ manager. Someone who’ll sort out the huge number of softies in our squad from Day 1. Needs to be clever as ‘old school’ managers don’t seem to be acceptable to the snowflakes nowadays... but he needs to get performances out of our literally dozens of ‘also rans’ that we’ve imported or developed. If they don’t respond and perform just kick them out the Club. They’re like a cancer that spreads and affect others. 

Cotts nearly sorted it, but for whatever reason lost the support of SL - which effectively cut him off at the knees.

Interesting isn’t it, 4 years on and who’d bet against the Cotts tightly knit TEAM of winners beating any of about 10 teams LJ could put out from his squad. 

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This in spades....we're a mid table championship who go on streaky winning and losing runs. We're not consistent and therefore not actually good enough to be promoted.

I had an offer of a free ticket to the Luton game. I turned it down. I go to be entertained and not bored out of my mind. The football is turgid, devoid of ideas and we can't defend or attack. 

With the current squad, we can be entertaining, but we set up to mitigate the opposition, rather than play to our strengths. What is wrong with TRYING TO WIN? 

The mindset is wrong and everything comes from mindset - the players, the fans, the atmosphere. Until this changes, we'll keep losing. 

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3 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Alan Dicks built a side, he had a plan.

He didn’t have millions of pounds to play with, he didn’t change the team on a weekly basis, he didn’t buy in about 50 players and still not be satisfied, and he didn’t moan about lack of leaders having signed those 50 players himself.

 

AD didn't have millions to play with (no manager in Div 2 did in those days) but he wasn't forced to sell his best players either. I'm sure he did moan about the players on occasions although in those days there wasn't much interaction with the Press and there wasn't any internet, and certainly before the promotion season he did make regular changes to the team introducing youngsters and playing experienced players where required as well as dropping players who didn't perform.

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2 hours ago, RedRock said:

The reason why the West teams are ‘soft’ is that we haven’t got a ruthless streak. We’re happy to be also-rans. 

Worked in various places in the UK. Spent most of my time in the South West telling people that  ‘it’s ok’ simply isn’t good enough. 

 

 We need a ‘ruthless’ manager. Someone who’ll sort out the huge number of softies in our squad from Day 1. Needs to be clever as ‘old school’ managers don’t seem to be acceptable to the snowflakes nowadays... but he needs to get performances out of our literally dozens of ‘also rans’ that we’ve imported or developed. If they don’t respond and perform just kick them out the Club. They’re like a cancer that spreads and affect others. 

Cotts nearly sorted it, but for whatever reason lost the support of SL - which effectively cut him off at the knees.

Interesting isn’t it, 4 years on and who’d bet against the Cotts tightly knit TEAM of winners beating any of about 10 teams LJ could put out from his squad. 

Possibly. Possibly..

I don't necessarily agree on the also-rans label. These are players from a decent level, a decent track record. Internationals in okay sides, decent Leagues,  in the case of Massengo from an excellent academy in Monaco- if you doubt my view, go away and research these players. 

Old school managers often fail. Game has changed,  life has changed. I give you Roy Keane! 

If they're as poor as you suggest, kicking them out is easier said than done. For that you surely need to find wiling buyers or loan interest.

If you mean sack, it's brave but it'd be a massive FFP hit or could,  and possibly would damage us in the medium term, reputationally. Would players be interested in coming to a club with a big sacking culture, in 2019? On tg the FFP point, sacking would surely entail paying up contracts, plus the remaining amortisation would come off the books in that season, we'd run up enormous losses surely, FFP says hi! Also we'd lose sale, resale value.

Really though, really? We were conceding a lot of goals, we were losing a lot. Nobody can say for sure whether Cotts could've saved us, but I'm unsure. Certainly would question whether Cotts 2015 side beats LJ as of now side. 

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3 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Biggest city never to have won the top league, Bristol.

Biggest city never to have won the FA cup, Bristol.

Biggest city never to have even been in the Prem, Bristol.

Why should we always accept mediocrity?

 

Biggest UK city never to have had a successful rock band...

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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Possibly. Possibly..

I don't necessarily agree on the also-rans label. These are players from a decent level, a decent track record. Internationals in okay sides, decent Leagues,  in the case of Massengo from an excellent academy in Monaco- if you doubt my view, go away and research these players. 

Old school managers often fail. Game has changed,  life has changed. I give you Roy Keane! 

If they're as poor as you suggest, kicking them out is easier said than done. For that you surely need to find wiling buyers or loan interest.

If you mean sack, it's brave but it'd be a massive FFP hit or could,  and possibly would damage us in the medium term, reputationally. Would players be interested in coming to a club with a big sacking culture, in 2019? On tg the FFP point, sacking would surely entail paying up contracts, plus the remaining amortisation would come off the books in that season, we'd run up enormous losses surely, FFP says hi! Also we'd lose sale, resale value.

Really though, really? We were conceding a lot of goals, we were losing a lot. Nobody can say for sure whether Cotts could've saved us, but I'm unsure. Certainly would question whether Cotts 2015 side beats LJ as of now side. 

I would be surprised if LJ’s contract included full pay-out of remaining years....SL got caught by that with Cotts.  But you are right, there is a cost to sacking, even more so if assistants go with him.  Then you have cost of recruiting too, maybe compensation to club you poach their manager from.  And he’ll want some money in January too.

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I would be surprised if LJ’s contract included full pay-out of remaining years....SL got caught by that with Cotts.  But you are right, there is a cost to sacking, even more so if assistants go with him.  Then you have cost of recruiting too, maybe compensation to club you poach their manager from.  And he’ll want some money in January too.

I think Moor 2 Sea and me were cross purposes a bit. 'If they don't perform just kick then out the club'.

I assumed that post was referring to players- something that'd be hugely costly, unfeasible if the poster meant sack and a major FFP hit, to say nothing of value lost etc.

Agree on LJ,  3 years would be fairly unlikely given Cotts.

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I would be surprised if LJ’s contract included full pay-out of remaining years....SL got caught by that with Cotts.  But you are right, there is a cost to sacking, even more so if assistants go with him.  Then you have cost of recruiting too, maybe compensation to club you poach their manager from.  And he’ll want some money in January too.

This is why I strongly suspect we will be with LJ until the end of the season, unless the slide continues until March and relegation threatens.

Would've expected our CEO to include a break-clause in the contract relating to performance. If he doesn’t meet the target of top 6 he will be out at the end of season without us having to pay-up his full contract. 

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4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think Moor 2 Sea and me were cross purposes a bit. 'If they don't perform just kick then out the club'.

I assumed that post was referring to players- something that'd be hugely costly, unfeasible if the poster meant sack and a major FFP hit, to say nothing of value lost etc.

Agree on LJ,  3 years would be fairly unlikely given Cotts.

No. You were correct in your first assumption. I did mean the players. 

‘Kick them out’ I agree could well be difficult for some (we did manage to persuade Cardiff to take Tomlin though). But you can freeze them out, to avoid the bad apples infecting the whole squad. 

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4 hours ago, Aberdeen Pete's Dad said:

Some things never change. I have heard it all before. LJ out. Sod out. McInnes out. Doherty out Houghton out . Osman out . Dicks out .  Whichever manager we have ever had will never take us to the promised land, apart from Dicks of whom the same was said before he did take us up ( and down again). So all those predictions over the years have proved to be correct.

We ( indeed the whole of the West Country ) has had a total of 4 years of top division football since the First World War - FACT 

Every team  except Millwall and Barnsley have spent more seasons in the top division than we have in the last 100 years- FACT

Every team in the championship except Preston and Brentford have been in the top division since we were last there - FACT

Plymouth is the biggest city never to have played in the top division- FACT

Exeter is the biggest city never to have played in the second tier - FACT

Why do we expect anything different ? Look at our fixtures and compare them with 50 years ago.- Blackburn Cardiff Hull Huddersfield Preston Millwall Charlton Middlesbrough Sheffield Wednesday Birmingham etc etc - pretty well the same. Of course, there are some teams in the Premier League who are smaller than us - Bournemouth ( definitely) Brighton Watford ( arguably) and good luck to them, , but in a few years they will come down again like Swansea and Wigan have done. Of course, for every one of those, there is a Sunderland Ipswich Coventry or Bolton who are below their “ natural” place in the order of things , but they will all come back - eventually. 

We all hope to get to the Premier League, at least for a while, ( although if/ when we do I hope we don’t go down 3 seasons in a row like the last time) , but it isn’t easy playing in a division when the great majority of teams are unquestionably bigger than us, and nearly all of  whom have a greater history. Bournemouth and Brighton have shown that it can be done.

What is it that causes us ( and all West Country teams) to apparently underachieve ? . Players come and go. Managers come and go. Directors come and go. Owners come and go, but for the most part things stay the same.

The only thing that never changes are the fans. However, the majority of those who are quick to come out and criticise after a few bad results, but remain quiet when the team are winning, refuse to even consider the possibility that their anxiety, negativity and pessimism may be  a factor in what many perceive to be the club’s chronic underachievement over decades. They are affronted they anyone should even suggest that this might be so.

It is funny how occasionally things from one’s childhood occasionally stick in the memory. I remember it clearly . Coventry at home in January 1967. We drew 2-2 with a team which won the Second Division that season. Some fans were moaning like they do now about City’s lack of achievement. I can clearly remember saying to my mate that if City were ever to win the First Division (as unlikely then as it is now) , some fans would say that this team will never win the European Cup !

Some things never change. I have heard it all before.

 

Coventry went up in '68. They had 33 - thirty ******* three! - unbroken seasons of top class football, winning, brilliantly, and famously, an FA Cup final along the way.

Prior to this, they had no history of top flight football. 

And their crowds were shite for about 30 of those seasons. Pitiful. Cov had nothing over us in terms of crowds and income and resources and yet they managed more than 8 times the amount of top level football. Would it be ok with you to have a problem with that?

Meanwhile, we - with a greater history than Cov - managed four years at the top, three of which were pretty grim struggle against relegation  (and not a whiff of any FA cup glory). And then we collapsed like a pack of bloody cards, spending years of mediocrity amongst the likes of Walsall, Gillingham, Rovers and so on.

And you wonder about the attitude - and the bitterness - of the crowd at AG? 

 

We have been shite, and have hugely underperformed, as a club, for decades. SL has done much to try and  correct or change this, and he has much to do still, by the looks of it.

The people you cite "moaning" at AG were paying money to be there and keeping the club going, unlike most people in Bristol. 

It really could have been so much better; up until parachute payments we had more than enough of what you need to be a top flight club, but it hasn't happened here (while happening in other very similar size clubs around the country, and many smaller, including some in football "backwaters" and at clubs with no previous top class history).

As I see it, we have every reason to grumble about the people that have run the club and the level of football they have delivered for the people of Bristol. 

 

 

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33 years of unbeaten top division football would do me nicely, like Coventry who went up in 1967,  especially if it included an FACup win and a season of European football (would have been two were it not foe English clubs ban).

Of course, as you say , we have underperformed for decades. Of course, every club’s fans pay to watch their team and can criticise if they want, but in any one season only 20 teams can play in the Premier League. No one has a right to be there. The moaning of some fans when their team does not make the top 4 to play in the Champions League makes me laugh/ sick.

All I am saying is that fans should consider whether their anxiety and negativity which has gone on for ever,  is a reason why we are an underachieving club. After all, the last 2-3 years have been one of the better spells in the last 100 years - perhaps only our golden era of the 1970s has been better - it was the only time that we have managed more than 6 seasons without being relegated- if we stay up this year it will be our 6 th season. Actually, thinking about it, every time we have managed to stay in the second tier for more than 6 seasons we have gone up shortly afterwards. Perhaps, hope is round the corner !

if Coventry can stay up for 33 years so can we.

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6 hours ago, Aberdeen Pete's Dad said:

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Aberdeen Pete's Dad said:

We ( indeed the whole of the West Country ) has had a total of 4 years of top division football since the First World War - FACT

Swindon not part of the West Country?  Oh, you have said that is a FACT, so I will bow to your superior "FACT-awareness" (only being pedantic - FACT!!)😀

Actually, I do agree with quite a bit of what you are saying, I just feel that when someone says "FACT" after their statements it makes me cringe a bit! 

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2 hours ago, RedRock said:

This is why I strongly suspect we will be with LJ until the end of the season, unless the slide continues until March and relegation threatens.

Would've expected our CEO to include a break-clause in the contract relating to performance. If he doesn’t meet the target of top 6 he will be out at the end of season without us having to pay-up his full contract. 

I agree with this, didn't Steve Lansdown say that the target this season was top 6? If that doesn't happen then the pressure will be on him to act - maybe!

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LJ is safe until the end of the season whatever the fans may think. However come the end of the season and we don’t have a top 6 or even top half of the table finish then SL’s legendary patience might finally snap.

LJ can moan all he likes about injuries but the reality is that as well as a toothless attack without Afobe, we have a misfiring midfield and a leaky defence, which would have conceded far more but for Bentley’s regular heroics in goal. There must be some deep-seated deficiencies in his coaching, highlighted by yet another bad losing streak. It isn’t just coincidence or bad luck that this keeps happening to him. The players change but the patterns remain the same, which suggests the fault lies with the one constant, the coaching team.

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