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AshtonRobin21

“Identity”

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3 hours ago, Trueredsupporter said:

Jealous of ******* Brentford.....is that really what its come too? Yes. City 0 Brentford 4

Better side than us- quite evident to anyone who watches Championship football regularly.

They're 3rd in the table for a reason! They matched and in parts outplayed WBA at the Hawthorns for a reason.

Not excusing today but once the early goal and red card came, it was going one way and one way only.

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On 27/12/2019 at 11:31, glen humphries said:

Lee couldn’t even predict our next lineup it’s the tombola that does it

Tombola? And there was me firmly in the belief it was a bag of balls......

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How much progress has really been made since 2017. 

If progress is viewed as progressing and establishing a footballing identity. None. 

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@Cowshed

Interested in your thoughts on this.

I see a lot on this forum about how we're weak and lack physicality. Well Brentford weren't exactly the land of the giants today. The early goal and 11 v 10 were possibly significant factors granted!

Suppose my question is, is the physicality element or lack (perceived or otherwise) such a strong factor for us, do you think?

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I really think LJ believes we’re a passing team, when all we generally do is knock the ball around between the back four/five most of the time.  Once we get in threatening forward positions, our players often seem to suddenly lose any ability to find a team-mate if they’re more more than a couple of yards away and even within that range, they can often still find it easier to give it to an opposing player than their own. 

A shame he wasn’t already on a touchline ban today, as he would then have seen from the stands what a real passing side looks like!  None of the repetitive, cagy passing around the defence that we resort to regularly.  When Brentford’s defenders were on the ball, you could clearly see they were always looking to move the ball forwards quickly and had players ahead of them who were constantly on the move and in space to provide outlets and their pass accuracy was so much better than we’re used to with City.  I know we were a man down today, but Brentford generally have the beating of us, so even when we have 11 against 11, they usually look like they’ve got an extra man.

Their positive passing ethos seems to be drummed into their players; whatever their position on the pitch and hats off to them for that.  I always hate to see us get a dicking but have to admit Brentford are great to watch and they fully deserve any success they get for playing football the right way.

LJ really needs to stop banging on about our ‘identity’, because its laughable when you come up against a side with a real, rock solid identity that we saw today. After all his time in charge, we still haven’t got a bleedin clue what ours is, so maybe he should just come clean and admit we haven’t actually got one, except maybe careless, or fragile!

 

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8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Cowshed

Interested in your thoughts on this.

I see a lot on this forum about how we're weak and lack physicality. Well Brentford weren't exactly the land of the giants today. The early goal and 11 v 10 were possibly significant factors granted!

Suppose my question is, is the physicality element or lack (perceived or otherwise) such a strong factor for us, do you think?

Its a factor but it is a perception based upon what we view physicality as. Physical does not have to be crunching tackles it can be how space is controlled the way a team presses, drops to make its interventions. City's tempo out of possession is inconsistent, it lacks definition and fluency - A point of the topic. Identity is also what you do without the ball.  

For period in 2017 Mr Johnson mentioned busy Bees - Out of possession it was high tempo and aggressive , it was physical via lungs and energy without the need for bigger players putting weight about. 

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A lot of clubs have tried to copy Pep. Unfortunately most have got it all wrong and play a slow and pointless possession game that just isn’t effective. There has been quite a few times this season when I think we are one of them.

Edited by MATT BCFC
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2 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

A lot of clubs have tried to copy Pep. Unfortunately most have got it all wrong and play a slow and pointless possession game that just isn’t effective. There has been quite a few times this season when I think we are one of them.

Bristol City possession stats are below 50%. Nearly a third of passes are long balls. The pass accuracy is low at 73%. The Keepers is 54%. Average pass length is above average. 

Bristol City play even less like Man City out of possession.

Be assured If Lee Johnson is copying any team it is not Manchester City.

 

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City possession stats are below 50%. Nearly a third of passes are long balls. The pass accuracy is low at 73%. The Keepers is 54%. Average pass length is above average. 

Bristol City play even less like Man City out of possession.

Be assured If Lee Johnson is copying any team it is not Manchester City.

 

I think we just aren’t very good at it. We do try and play out the back but then due to limited options we normally then give it away or hoof it aimlessly up field.

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I think our main problem is that we have excellent players that would be brilliant in the right team, but they dont really suit each others game style. Fammy would be an excellent false 9 if he had more striking options with him (could work if we bring in a new striker with weimann pushed out wider), Palmer needs players to run onto his through balls which isnt really fam or weimann and doesnt offer much defensively, and also could overlap with fammy in position as he tends to stay behind the front line.

Elliason is excellent but only in the final 3rd, and requires a big player in the box like fam to actually get a header on target. Bc he stays out so wide he doesnt get involved in passing play between midfielders which is the game style LJ is trying to create and this weakens our CM overall.

Our link play between the defence and midfield has been poor ever since webster left (although dasilva could remedy this) which I think is part of the issue with our defence this season, no options from loose balls or while we're in possesion from the back so we just hoof it up the pitch league 1 style. 

Also confidence seems to be shattered now, going from the start of the season where the fans and players believed that we were one of the strongest teams in the championship to scraping  a bunch of wins and draws to keep us in playoff contention before december and no while every other team seems to have worked out how to play with each other, we still look like were in the pre-season just taking whatever chances we manage to come up with.

Saying that though I think we do have a good lineup in certain areas, we need an experienced holding midfielder who can take charge of a game when our heads are down (a Jordan Henderson-esque player) and a natural finisher/poacher to put away the chances that elliasson, deidhou and palmer have the ability to create. 

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40 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

I think we just aren’t very good at it. We do try and play out the back but then due to limited options we normally then give it away or hoof it aimlessly up field.

 One of the principles of Man Citys possession  is immediate support. The player in possession will have by the nature of Man Citys formation multiple receivers in relational distances to the ball. Just because a team plays out from the back a bit (BCFC) it does not mean they are copying Man City. Bristol City in its multiple formations and styles cannot play out like Man City who consistently month on month vary little in intent.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City possession stats are below 50%. Nearly a third of passes are long balls. The pass accuracy is low at 73%. The Keepers is 54%. Average pass length is above average. 

Bristol City play even less like Man City out of possession.

Be assured If Lee Johnson is copying any team it is not Manchester City.

 

Finally, finally!

I've been getting at this for a while, periodically but you've put it very well- a possession team we are not!

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Its a factor but it is a perception based upon what we view physicality as. Physical does not have to be crunching tackles it can be how space is controlled the way a team presses, drops to make its interventions. City's tempo out of possession is inconsistent, it lacks definition and fluency - A point of the topic. Identity is also what you do without the ball.  

For period in 2017 Mr Johnson mentioned busy Bees - Out of possession it was high tempo and aggressive , it was physical via lungs and energy without the need for bigger players putting weight about. 

Agree with this greatly too. Perceptions of physicality can differ- press, drop, screen- all that stuff. Absolutely agree on the off the ball, without the ball point- would hope for possession and some intense pressing.

Exactly right- I don't remember a huge amount of crunching tackles but as you say, high tempo, aggressive- but good on the ball too. I now think that we are better equipped to play the possession and press game than 2 years ago, but not decisively.

54 minutes ago, MATT BCFC said:

I think we just aren’t very good at it. We do try and play out the back but then due to limited options we normally then give it away or hoof it aimlessly up field.

System plays a problem for me. In THEORY.

Bentley....Moore and Kalas or Williams...Nagy CM but also Brownhill or Massengo have some passing...Weimann. A neat line, chain- Eliasson if out a bit wider, Palmer for some games- there are players who can play through the lines and passing lines/actions.

Three centrally helps to give those options, give that cover.

The question is whether we aren't very good at it as we lack the players, or whether it's how LJ sets us up but moreover his lack of consistent principle Perhaps some oif not good enough but I'm more inclined to go with the latter.

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7 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

4-4-2

3-5-2

3-4-1-2

4-2-3-1

3-4-2-1

3-5-1-1

Its amazing with that many darts thrown Lee Johnson has not hit a 4-3-3 yet.

It certainly is...and proper go at this shape is long, long overdue IMO.

He seems to have an odd aversion to it,. Very seldom play a genuine 4-3-3 under him- seem to recall 2nd half vs Stoke in 2018 when Walsh came on and we battered them, but Butland had a great game and we hit woodwork.

By 4-3-3, I don't include Paterson or Palmer or even possibly O'Dowda as one of the 3...balance doesn't work with that for me!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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On 02/01/2020 at 15:14, Mr Popodopolous said:

Finally, finally!

I've been getting at this for a while, periodically but you've put it very well- a possession team we are not!

.

And it happened again yesterday.

Bristol City season to season have  barely had more possession than the opposition. Now it is less. Its a fallacy. A dissonance. The team will meander across the pitch with the ball but it is action not consistent with an intent to out pass the opposition. 

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On 02/01/2020 at 15:03, Cowshed said:

 One of the principles of Man Citys possession  is immediate support. The player in possession will have by the nature of Man Citys formation multiple receivers in relational distances to the ball. Just because a team plays out from the back a bit (BCFC) it does not mean they are copying Man City. Bristol City in its multiple formations and styles cannot play out like Man City who consistently month on month vary little in intent.

 

 

First 20 minutes yesterday.  The number of times Kalas had the ball, usually from Mäenpää with the players in front if him looking like this:

BE15A5BD-96FB-4957-8DC4-EA76E1FD45E0.thumb.jpeg.80fbb9d79e23ccbf57209c57cd55b64c.jpeg

That is certainly as far away from “immediate support” as you can get.  I’ve not exaggerated any of it.  I was appalled that this is acceptable.

Its not difficult for any side, even a League one side to press and block passing angles / lanes if players position themselves like this.  For me it’s a set up, to go long / direct, even then it’s not great.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

First 20 minutes yesterday.  The number of times Kalas had the ball, usually from Mäenpää with the players in front if him looking like this:

BE15A5BD-96FB-4957-8DC4-EA76E1FD45E0.thumb.jpeg.80fbb9d79e23ccbf57209c57cd55b64c.jpeg

That is certainly as far away from “immediate support” as you can get.  I’ve not exaggerated any of it.  I was appalled that this is acceptable.

Its not difficult for any side, even a League one side to press and block passing angles / lanes if players position themselves like this.  For me it’s a set up, to go long / direct, even then it’s not great.

Its a consistent.

You could create that picture across Bristol City's football. Its a team not looking to keep the ball. It not possession football.

A reason Bristol City cannot get out is because of the lack of movement in the last two thirds. The ball goes long because it often has too. There are not players constantly dropping in between lines and half spaces and starting in positions short and long with width and depth. Players are not playing off simple triggers - He is facing up and I move into a pocket or shift to create spaces.

This is due to the direction of Mr Johnson.

 

Edited by Cowshed
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1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

Its a consistent.

You could create that picture across Bristol City's football. Its a team not looking to keep the ball. It not possession football.

A reason Bristol City cannot get out is because of the lack of movement in the last two thirds. The ball goes long because it often has too. There are not players constantly dropping in between lines and half spaces and starting in positions short and long with width and depth. Players are not playing off simple triggers - He is facing up and I move into a pocket or shift to create spaces.

This is at the bequest of the Mr Johnson.

 

The stupid thing for me was why did it change when Eliasson, went left, Watkins right and Palmer no10.

Why on 21 minutes did Nagy start coming shorter, helping the 2xCBs, when he’d not prior to that?  It also gave Massengo easier angles to beat their press.

Why did Palmer find time on the ball in their final third, that Watkins couldn’t?

Why did Eliasson suddenly get on the ball one on one v their RB and create all manner of problems?

It made no sense why we couldn’t do that from the first minute.

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19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The stupid thing for me was why did it change when Eliasson, went left, Watkins right and Palmer no10.

Why on 21 minutes did Nagy start coming shorter, helping the 2xCBs, when he’d not prior to that?  It also gave Massengo easier angles to beat their press.

Why did Palmer find time on the ball in their final third, that Watkins couldn’t?

Why did Eliasson suddenly get on the ball one on one v their RB and create all manner of problems?

It made no sense why we couldn’t do that from the first minute.

In another thread you mention Liverpool and 4-3-3. Liverpool have outstanding players. Outstanding players playing to a picture of their game.

Bristol City?

What you describe there is a changing picture. Movement is coached in. Players will be more adept than others but movement is recognising the patterns the team practices and responding to them.

Players lacking fluency and confidence does make sense in a Bristol City team of so much change.

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On 28/12/2019 at 14:13, Cowshed said:

The buzz words are the Emporers new clothes. It made Mr Johnson for a period look like a modern progressive coach till the lack of substance caught up with him.

He is making it up reactively as he goes along as many do. There is no big plan and philosophy that bears any scrutiny guiding Bristol City's football. The bullshit is unnecessary.

Agree so much with the above.

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16 hours ago, Cowshed said:

In another thread you mention Liverpool and 4-3-3. Liverpool have outstanding players. Outstanding players playing to a picture of their game.

Bristol City?

What you describe there is a changing picture. Movement is coached in. Players will be more adept than others but movement is recognising the patterns the team practices and responding to them.

Players lacking fluency and confidence does make sense in a Bristol City team of so much change.

The thing is, Liverpool dont actually have that many outstanding players. Salah, Mane and Virgil being the outstanding players that would walk into most teams but beyond that that have a team of average players who on their own would struggle to get into the best teams in the world. Look beyond Liverpool's starting 11 and the quality of players in reserve is not good at all yet somehow Klopp is able to get the best out of the average players. Every single player knows their role within that team, if one is out injured, his replacement knows his role. 

Liverpool are not outstanding because they have outstanding players, they are outstanding because every single player follows the managers instructions. I despise Liverpool but I cant help but admire the way they play, it reminds me of a orchestra. 

Liverpool players never stop running and never stop moving. I've seen it many times where one if our defenders will have the ball or even the keeper and and no one drops back to recieve the ball, no one moves into space, this then forces our defenders or keeper to punt it long. Our players just seem to stand still and remain marked. 

The only identity I can currently tell is that we try to be hard to beat, dont take many risks and that we are a crossing team and I dont like it, it's not the Bristol City way. We dont appear to be operating as a unit like Liverpool do, we play like we are a team of 11 individuals, we dont have players that are willing to die for each other, we dont have players that has their team mates back. Sometimes there is glimpses of it but it's far too irregular. 

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We appear to be bogged down, at the moment.

There is a heaviness about us, we are leaden-footed, sluggish, lacking spontaneity. Tired.

A number of things have derailed us, from losing out on Eddie so late, then seemingly finding a solution to this in Afobe and then losing him to a serious injury. Then more injuries to key players. And when players like Kalas and Nagy return, they are half what they were at their best. Elsewhere, talented individuals come in and out of the team, but their positives are undermined by considerable negatives. Home form and performances nosedive as opponents find it easier and easier to frustrate and deny us.

On top of this, one of the players suffers a devasting personal trauma.

This is all enough to test most coaches/managers, let alone one always under question or suspicion with a significant element of the home support. And one yet to lead a team to a significant success, such as promotion. 

If the answer to all this was a formation - 433 or some other variant - or selection or "how to set his team up" then Lee Johnson would be able to spot it. This is the stuff you can see, and that someone at his level knows inside out.

I think the problem will be nothing to do with the stuff you can see and instead be almost intangible, infuriatingly elusive. It will be the sort of thing that comes about in an organisation as a result of other things being done and happening, things being done well and assuredly, by those in leadership roles, and in so doing, creating a sense of certainty, clarity and confidence amongst the squad.

But if you were to pop up to Failand it might not be that obvious or straightforward to see.

If you look at how we are playing, the manner of performances, it is too slow, to safe, too risk-averse. Too predictable, and so too easily countered by capable opponents.

To open up teams banked across the field in front of you and not making defensive errors, someone has at some point to do something not expected, unpredictable, and potentially risky. To dare to win we have to be prepared to risk losing too. 

What gets in the way of this - and what inhibits potential being realised - is fear, and fear leads to lethargy (physically, and mentally), and players looking to some looking on like they are not trying. And players playing it safe, playing within themselves, trying not to make a terrible mistake rather than feeling free to express themselves.

We do have an identity at the moment but it is one of fearfulness and confusion, uncertainty. An identity we don't want.

Thing is, how do you embolden individuals and teams? Or, how do you not inhibit them in the first place? How do you set this lot free?

I have no idea. Sign Eddie? Play two up top?

Despite all the badges, and courses, and qualifications, and uefa b this and FA level whatever, you can do and aquire, football management/coaching continues to be both an art and a science. And I reckon Lee is ok, more than ok, on the science bit; where Lee is struggling, if he is struggling, will be on the intangible bit of football leadership that you cannot always see or put your finger on, the art of leading and managing footballers.

It's a knack, something you cannot teach directly, and by and large, something you either have, or you don't. Certainly, some have it in spades, and some have it in teaspoons.

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5 hours ago, Up The City! said:

The thing is, Liverpool dont actually have that many outstanding players. Salah, Mane and Virgil being the outstanding players that would walk into most teams but beyond that that have a team of average players who on their own would struggle to get into the best teams in the world. Look beyond Liverpool's starting 11 and the quality of players in reserve is not good at all yet somehow Klopp is able to get the best out of the average players. Every single player knows their role within that team, if one is out injured, his replacement knows his role. 

Liverpool are not outstanding because they have outstanding players, they are outstanding because every single player follows the managers instructions. I despise Liverpool but I cant help but admire the way they play, it reminds me of a orchestra. 

Liverpool players never stop running and never stop moving. I've seen it many times where one if our defenders will have the ball or even the keeper and and no one drops back to recieve the ball, no one moves into space, this then forces our defenders or keeper to punt it long. Our players just seem to stand still and remain marked. 

The only identity I can currently tell is that we try to be hard to beat, dont take many risks and that we are a crossing team and I dont like it, it's not the Bristol City way. We dont appear to be operating as a unit like Liverpool do, we play like we are a team of 11 individuals, we dont have players that are willing to die for each other, we dont have players that has their team mates back. Sometimes there is glimpses of it but it's far too irregular. 

There are a lot of points there but I am going to avoid writing a long post.

Liverpool also have outstanding athletes. The football requires explosive energy and quick recovery time. That their players keep running is not a coincidence. Klopp kept the ones that can and brought in more that could. James Milners fitness is freakish in this respect. The players in reserve have very high (outstanding) fitness levels. That is what their football requires - You can press season long if the decision is made to follow that path is single minded. What Klopp calls full throttle football is their identity and there is no compromise. There are no plan B, plan C's. Alter slightly yes, compromise no.

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

If you look at how we are playing, the manner of performances, it is too slow, to safe, too risk-averse. Too predictable, and so too easily countered by capable opponents.

To open up teams banked across the field in front of you and not making defensive errors, someone has at some point to do something not expected, unpredictable, and potentially risky. To dare to win we have to be prepared to risk losing too. 

 

Very interesting post. To open up teams your first line can be quicker. It not necessarily unpredictable its being better at bounces, one twos, switches, patterns .. An overload is not unpredictable as such but it creates challenges.  

The above can be improved by continuity. Less plan B, C's. 

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

We appear to be bogged down, at the moment.

There is a heaviness about us, we are leaden-footed, sluggish, lacking spontaneity. Tired.

 

Which could be improved by clarity. Mr Johnson is keen on this word. Understanding roles improves the above as long as the individuals skills are appropriate to the task. Understanding roles leads to spontaneity. Spontaneity in football isn't. To be achieve this the individual has to have a level of technique they have practiced. Spontaneity is frequently the result of individuals reacting to internalised practice, reacting to a recognised pattern and responding in a millisecond. 

Then there is the Neymars etc ..

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

We do have an identity at the moment but it is one of fearfulness and confusion, uncertainty. An identity we don't want.

Thing is, how do you embolden individuals and teams? Or, how do you not inhibit them in the first place? How do you set this lot free?

I have no idea. 

You do know a possible answer to your question.

Confusion and uncertainty can feed inhibition. It also affects confidence. And then players physical ability and skill level. 

An answer is frequently keep it simple. 

Without going into how the pre frontal cortex and how our minds works by removing complexity (confusion and uncertainty?) we become more effective.

I use possible, could and can. I will not claim this is the remedy, but these are norms. 

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

We appear to be bogged down, at the moment.

There is a heaviness about us, we are leaden-footed, sluggish, lacking spontaneity. Tired.

A number of things have derailed us, from losing out on Eddie so late, then seemingly finding a solution to this in Afobe and then losing him to a serious injury. Then more injuries to key players. And when players like Kalas and Nagy return, they are half what they were at their best. Elsewhere, talented individuals come in and out of the team, but their positives are undermined by considerable negatives. Home form and performances nosedive as opponents find it easier and easier to frustrate and deny us.

On top of this, one of the players suffers a devasting personal trauma.

This is all enough to test most coaches/managers, let alone one always under question or suspicion with a significant element of the home support. And one yet to lead a team to a significant success, such as promotion. 

If the answer to all this was a formation - 433 or some other variant - or selection or "how to set his team up" then Lee Johnson would be able to spot it. This is the stuff you can see, and that someone at his level knows inside out.

I think the problem will be nothing to do with the stuff you can see and instead be almost intangible, infuriatingly elusive. It will be the sort of thing that comes about in an organisation as a result of other things being done and happening, things being done well and assuredly, by those in leadership roles, and in so doing, creating a sense of certainty, clarity and confidence amongst the squad.

But if you were to pop up to Failand it might not be that obvious or straightforward to see.

If you look at how we are playing, the manner of performances, it is too slow, to safe, too risk-averse. Too predictable, and so too easily countered by capable opponents.

To open up teams banked across the field in front of you and not making defensive errors, someone has at some point to do something not expected, unpredictable, and potentially risky. To dare to win we have to be prepared to risk losing too. 

What gets in the way of this - and what inhibits potential being realised - is fear, and fear leads to lethargy (physically, and mentally), and players looking to some looking on like they are not trying. And players playing it safe, playing within themselves, trying not to make a terrible mistake rather than feeling free to express themselves.

We do have an identity at the moment but it is one of fearfulness and confusion, uncertainty. An identity we don't want.

Thing is, how do you embolden individuals and teams? Or, how do you not inhibit them in the first place? How do you set this lot free?

I have no idea. Sign Eddie? Play two up top?

Despite all the badges, and courses, and qualifications, and uefa b this and FA level whatever, you can do and aquire, football management/coaching continues to be both an art and a science. And I reckon Lee is ok, more than ok, on the science bit; where Lee is struggling, if he is struggling, will be on the intangible bit of football leadership that you cannot always see or put your finger on, the art of leading and managing footballers.

It's a knack, something you cannot teach directly, and by and large, something you either have, or you don't. Certainly, some have it in spades, and some have it in teaspoons.

Well written and a good appraisal of current situation.

But the solution is when good personnel management comes in and provides the leadership to restore confidence!

Every season we have these "Blips in form" that seem to last forever - 11 points from 66 available, a couple of years ago is indelibly printed in my memory. I will repeat it ad infinitum - the current Head Coach is sadly lacking in this part of his job.

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On 27/12/2019 at 20:48, dave36 said:

A La LJ!

Turn, pass back or cross and don’t get tackled - better still find a space where you won’t be expected to tackle and won’t receive the ball

Oh God, I remember it well!

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Our identity seems to be based on the idea of a slow, possession-based, passing game built from the back, threading the ball through the opposition until we spot a chink in their armour.

Well, that's the theory.

The practice is to roll or throw the ball out to defenders who are usually in our area, allowing advanced opponents the opportunity to menace immediately in the hope they'll make a mistake. 7/8th of the park will have already been conceded if they - or the goalie - does muck up.

If the ball makes it to our deep midfield, they will be under intense pressure from the attacking midfielders from our opponents. We still haven't got out of our half, yet we've given the opposition two chances to steal the ball (typically). Our deep midfield can either try to run the ball forward (Massengo's preference), but aren't strong enough to retain it often; or they can pass quickly (Nagy's preference) although a forward pass is often not available, and we saw v Shrewsbury back passes being intercepted by an opponent running on. It happened at least 4 times. We are THAT easy to work out.

IF we manage to get the ball out of our half, the build up is so slow, our opponents will usually have 11 men between us and the goal.

The thing is, we don't have to play like this: even under Johnson. 

Anyone remember the "high press"? We were much more attack-minded during Lee's most successful periods at this club. When the ball fell to opponents, we'd attack the second ball.  We ran the channels, and employed players who could link-up to do this. 

I do believe we have players at the club who could easily make the play-offs. At the same time, if we play the negative "slow build" brand of labouring to get out our own half, the same group could also lose to Torquay.

It's why I believe, unless Johnson changes his instructions to players, we are doomed to fall down the league: no matter who comes in this window. No good having a goal poacher if the ball never gets to him - or if it does, he has 6 opponents in the box and no support.

 

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Play a 2 in CM and it puts us at a disadvantage, both in terms of ball retention and the high press.

Best spell under LJ was when we had all the injuries two years or so ago I thought. Another man gives the opposition more to think about, gives us more options while giving them a bit more of a problem.

We were both very compact yet controlled at the same time. Central areas were frequently filled avoiding being outnumbered while giving us more options- and our technical ability then came to the fore combined with this, as the opposition no longer had a numerical advantage...a filled central area also helps provide a base for pressing.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Play a 2 in CM and it puts us at a disadvantage, both in terms of ball retention and the high press.

Best spell under LJ was when we had all the injuries two years or so ago I thought. Another man gives the opposition more to think about, gives us more options while giving them a bit more of a problem.

We were both very compact yet controlled at the same time. Central areas were frequently filled avoiding being outnumbered while giving us more options- and our technical ability then came to the fore combined with this, as the opposition no longer had a numerical advantage...a filled central area also helps provide a base for pressing.

I posted this earlier on another thread.

DBB3590E-CADD-4C04-9788-E6B8A7CACD6F.thumb.jpeg.d452544304135648836c68b6eb767ebd.jpeg

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We are told that Lee Johnson is a great coach. Lee Johnsons passing team today passed the ball to the opposition forty times out of every hundred. At points today Bristol City passing accuracy was below 60%. City frequently went long. Wigan had 69% of the possession. The team may have won 2-0 v Wigan but this demonstrates the level of Mr Johnsons team and its progression. Its also again demonstrates the identity the team does not have.

 

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Got totally outpassed by a team only Luton are worse than in league. strange one third of the shots possession and struggled to make three passes in a line and win. watched a bit of Brentford and compared to this its a world apart.

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When  we went up to the old 1st Division, did we actually have or need an ‘identity’ or did we just try to win games?

Too many people are on here are obsessed with an identity, move on - next season it’ll be a new buzz word!

(and people like to play buzz word bingo when MA speaks yet when it’s on here...)

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11 hours ago, Red DNA said:

When  we went up to the old 1st Division, did we actually have or need an ‘identity’ 

Yes. Alan Dicks would have not have called it such, But it was easy to identify how this team played even for this very young fan. I could name my eleven heroes week in week out and knew how they would play.

11 hours ago, Red DNA said:

 or did we just try to win games?

 

By doing the above. Keeping the football simple.

11 hours ago, Red DNA said:

 

Too many people are on here are obsessed with an identity, move on - next season it’ll be a new buzz word!

(and people like to play buzz word bingo when MA speaks yet when it’s on here...)

Why not answer these posts directly? 

Mr Johnson has been talking about identity for seasons.

Mr Johnson has stated there should be an identity running through the clubs  football. From its academy to its XI. That is more than buzz word, its a fundamental point.

Are the academy teams attempting to play like the XI? Are the U23's? What is the identity of the XI?

You may place nil importance on this but it does has a relevance to the direction of the football club.

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I've figured out our identity is to go along with what ever the analysts suggest pre match and then to go along with them once they have figured out they have got it wrong and once they have crunched all their numbers.

I am concerned about LJs reliance upon the analysts. It seems he has lost his managerial instinct and just goes along with what ever they suggest. Stats and numbers are all well and good but they dont give a full accurate representation of the full picture. LJ would do well to be less influenced by these unknown people.

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Couldn't believe the stats I read this morning. Passes made... Charlton 611, City 265.

Pass accuracy. Charlton 524, city 163.

That is truly shocking.

It was only a few months ago that LJ said we played a behind closed door friendly with the sole intention of completing over 600 passes.

Some fans were wanting Warnock a while back...well that's the type of stats you'd get with him.

Sit deep, soak up pressure, win ball and ping and hope football.

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12 hours ago, Red DNA said:

When  we went up to the old 1st Division, did we actually have or need an ‘identity’ or did we just try to win games?

Too many people are on here are obsessed with an identity, move on - next season it’ll be a new buzz word!

(and people like to play buzz word bingo when MA speaks yet when it’s on here...)

I agree with this. You don't need an identity to win football matches, you need to work hard, have good tactics and, ultimately, play well. I think all this analysis and stats that Johnson keeps banging on about is probably clouding his and the players' vision. 

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Red DNA whats confusing about this. City got totally outpassed by a team only Luton are worse than in league. It is strange that City had one third of the shots, one third of the possession and struggled to make three passes in a line but won. I watched a bit of Brentford and compared to this its a world apart. Disagree??

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4 hours ago, spudski said:

Couldn't believe the stats I read this morning. Passes made... Charlton 611, City 265.

Pass accuracy. Charlton 524, city 163.

That is truly shocking.

It was only a few months ago that LJ said we played a behind closed door friendly with the sole intention of completing over 600 passes.

Some fans were wanting Warnock a while back...well that's the type of stats you'd get with him.

Sit deep, soak up pressure, win ball and ping and hope football.

I find it disappointing not shocking. 

Go back to 2017 and it's highs then view this future's football. It is  failure. 

That training sessions purpose? A waste? 

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2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I find it disappointing not shocking. 

Go back to 2017 and it's highs then view this future's football. It is  failure. 

That training sessions purpose? A waste? 

Very disappointing.

However, as I posted on another thread. I think LJ right now is playing defensively on purpose. And looking to nick games on the break. Think it's a self preservation tactic. 

Too many players coming back from injury, too many playing with niggles. Others not performing consistently etc etc.

Not making excuses for him...however like many of us think, a lot of it is self inflicted by the Club in its random recruitment policy. Individually good, but getting them to gel seems less fruitful.

Hoping we look to offload many of them in the summer and go back to playing football that is entertaining to watch.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

Very disappointing.

However, as I posted on another thread. I think LJ right now is playing defensively on purpose. And looking to nick games on the break. Think it's a self preservation tactic. 

Too many players coming back from injury, too many playing with niggles. Others not performing consistently etc etc.

Not making excuses for him...however like many of us think, a lot of it is self inflicted by the Club in its random recruitment policy. Individually good, but getting them to gel seems less fruitful.

Hoping we look to offload many of them in the summer and go back to playing football that is entertaining to watch.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jan/11/nigel-pearson-watford-bournemouth

Nigel Pearson makes some interesting and original points about the over-simplification in referring to a team being in or out of form.

What the article has to say about the inverse relationship between the possession and passing stats of the 2 teams in question and their results is also food for thought.

Football, like life, is shades of grey, however much people want it to be black and white.

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14 minutes ago, chinapig said:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jan/11/nigel-pearson-watford-bournemouth

Nigel Pearson makes some interesting and original points about the over-simplification in referring to a team being in or out of form.

What the article has to say about the inverse relationship between the possession and passing stats of the 2 teams in question and their results is also food for thought.

Football, like life, is shades of grey, however much people want it to be black and white.

Interesting read, ta.

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2 hours ago, spudski said:

Very disappointing.

However, as I posted on another thread. I think LJ right now is playing defensively on purpose. And looking to nick games on the break. Think it's a self preservation tactic. 

Too many players coming back from injury, too many playing with niggles. Others not performing consistently etc etc.

Not making excuses for him...however like many of us think, a lot of it is self inflicted by the Club in its random recruitment policy. Individually good, but getting them to gel seems less fruitful.

Hoping we look to offload many of them in the summer and go back to playing football that is entertaining to watch.

Have you seen the churn of the playing staff in recent years? Not sure we can...it's bloody expensive for one though offloading will save costs too and secondly a team cannot IMO gel if you keep making wholesale changes.

I think LJ needs to change the shape- the 4-1-4-1 mentioned elsewhere was a good starting point I think, but only should be seen as such.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

Very disappointing.

However, as I posted on another thread. I think LJ right now is playing defensively on purpose. And looking to nick games on the break. Think it's a self preservation tactic. 

Too many players coming back from injury, too many playing with niggles. Others not performing consistently etc etc.

Not making excuses for him...however like many of us think, a lot of it is self inflicted by the Club in its random recruitment policy. Individually good, but getting them to gel seems less fruitful.

Hoping we look to offload many of them in the summer and go back to playing football that is entertaining to watch.

Your use of shock in your earlier post indicates dismay at Bristol City performance. Here you are providing excuses for it. I did not find it shocking, or surprising because the team has no identity and there is no big plan guiding Lee Johnsons football. 

The clubs random recruitment policy? Lee Johnson claims to have final say. It is claimed the recruitment is meticulous. What you identify is millions wasted in resource. 

Your previous post. It was only a few months ago that LJ said we played a behind closed door friendly with the sole intention of completing over 600 passes = What was the point of that friendly?  The team do not play that way. Its again wasted time. But a bigger point here is about the teams wider preparation. How do you prepare for this much change? How many training sessions are being wasted preparing for morphing styles that Mr Johnson will not stick with?

The academy do not play like the XI. The U23's ditto. And they cannot. The identity running through the club Mr Johnson mentions does not exist. More waste.

There is a transient nature to teams that are admired on this forum. Currently its Brentford and Sheffield Utd. Neither team go through as much change as BCFC do. Brentford. Both have clear direction. Brentford have very clear recruitment. Mr Wilder is known for his methodical and intensive approach to periodized training. Both have identity - The title of the thread.

In regards to Bristol City and identity .. Still bullshit. 

 

 

 

 

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