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Kasey Palmer


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13 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I think all too often fans are blinkered by the name and forget to judge on performances. Palmer has been **** since Afobe got injured.

Forget to judge on performances? :laugh:

Perhaps "fans" have a better memory for the fact Palmer was outstanding at Preston without Afobe (him and Daniel Johnson ran the two midfields), setup the winner in minutes against Charlton without Afobe too, and was a small part of our winner at Cardiff without Afobe where he looked very comfortable and had more quality than most to see out the game (and infuriate home fans).

I think all too often "other fans" see only a few bad performances when we're on TV (at West Brom where 7 players sat back and our performance was a shambles, or Hillsborough last week), or off the bench at Ashton Gate (defending a lead against a good Reading side that pressed us second half) and come out with wild generalisations that other players seem to get away without.

Palmer was consistently among our best players and certainly our most influential at the start of the season (at Birmingham, at Derby, at home to QPR, at home to Boro, and at Preston as I said). He's the one player that offers something we simply have no alternative for in the squad, and which we desperately need - vision and creativity. With a run in the team he was POTS material.

Yes he was hopeless in the games I've highlighted above (plus was poor but no more than the team as a whole at Brentford and Luton), and he may well be the easiest scapegoat for Lee Johnson (the evidence of his pattern of selection tells us that), but don't do him the disservice of talking about performances when you have a selective memory to generalise from a handful of them.

If we send him to Swansea it will be a disgrace and reflect most poorly on the coaches who signed him and yet now apparently are suggesting they don't know what to do with him. And this Afobe dependency is one of the laziest narratives this season.

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9 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

My instinct is Palmer won’t ever make the top level as he is lazy and try’s the glory ball all the time. He is not prepared to do the basics. His work rate off the ball is shocking and this is his major failing in the modern game. 

I don't think he is lazy...in fact the opposite.

Imo, he's very much like JET. He's not a natural athlete and struggles to get fit.

There is fit...and then there is Championship and Premiership fit.

And that's the big difference...so many players with natural skill and a certain level of fitness can shine and thrive in say league 1. However...move up a division and it's a massive difference. Natural skill only won't work...you get found out. You need skill and an extreme level of fitness.

If Palmer had the fitness, he would be a Prem player.

His vision is superb. He loves a through ball. Will excel with good intelligent movement in front of him.

To make it at this level, he needs to improve his concentration and discipline.

He needs to know when to dribble or make a certain pass that could lose possession in dangerous areas.

How often do we see him lose balls. How often do we see him go chasing back. How often does he commit fouls because of it. How often does he get booked....

He's like JET, Tomlin, Trundle... unplayable on their day, but their day isn't consistent enough.

Get him fit and with better concentration and decision making and you've got some player.

I can see why LJ has dropped him though. I don't think we have players around Palmer that are good enough to cover his weaknesses.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, spudski said:

His vision is superb. He loves a through ball. Will excel with good intelligent movement in front of him.

This, 100 times this. 

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

I don't think we have players around Palmer that are good enough to cover his weaknesses.

No coincidence that his form has tailed off since Afobe has been out.

 

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

Get him fit and with better concentration and decision making and you've got some player.

Add an on the shoulder , quick striker in the window and I see Palmer playing a big part in the rest of the season. It's like he has been playing with shackles on. No movement in front of him, very few runners from MF, you are taking away a massive part of his game.
From posts I've seen looks like he is working hard in the gym , promising signs?

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2 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

I can see why LJ has dropped him though. I don't think we have players around Palmer that are good enough to cover his weaknesses.

Or make the most of his strengths. 
 

I don’t care what creative player you put in our team, if all you have is statues in front of you then it’s difficult to find a pass and you end up losing the ball a lot more frequently.

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2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

This, 100 times this. 

No coincidence that his form has tailed off since Afobe has been out.

 

Add an on the shoulder , quick striker in the window and I see Palmer playing a big part in the rest of the season. It's like he has been playing with shackles on. No movement in front of him, very few runners from MF, you are taking away a massive part of his game.
From posts I've seen looks like he is working hard in the gym , promising signs?

 

3 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Or make the most of his strengths. 
 

I don’t care what creative player you put in our team, if all you have is statues in front of you then it’s difficult to find a pass and you end up losing the ball a lot more frequently.

With all the weaknesses in his game, it's pointless having him in the team if his strengths are nullified by lack of correct movement and vision around him.

Afobe was perfect for him and Palmer excelled with his movement and understanding. Palmer's confidence grew.

Occasionally it has worked with other players...but it's way too inconsistent.

I really feel for Palmer. He needs lots of correct movement and vision around him. At the moment we have very little of it. For every great striker...you need a Palmer to supply you that pass, to make you that great striker. But to be a great striker...you also need great vision and correct movement. Right now, we don't have that.

Our strikers fail...our Midfield contribution into creating good goal scoring opportunities fails. It's a catch 22.

I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

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24 minutes ago, spudski said:

I don't think he is lazy...in fact the opposite.

Imo, he's very much like JET. He's not a natural athlete and struggles to get fit.

There is fit...and then there is Championship and Premiership fit.

And that's the big difference...so many players with natural skill and a certain level of fitness can shine and thrive in say league 1. However...move up a division and it's a massive difference. Natural skill only won't work...you get found out. You need skill and an extreme level of fitness.

If Palmer had the fitness, he would be a Prem player.

His vision is superb. He loves a through ball. Will excel with good intelligent movement in front of him.

To make it at this level, he needs to improve his concentration and discipline.

He needs to know when to dribble or make a certain pass that could lose possession in dangerous areas.

How often do we see him lose balls. How often do we see him go chasing back. How often does he commit fouls because of it. How often does he get booked....

He's like JET, Tomlin, Trundle... unplayable on their day, but their day isn't consistent enough.

Get him fit and with better concentration and decision making and you've got some player.

I can see why LJ has dropped him though. I don't think we have players around Palmer that are good enough to cover his weaknesses.

 

 

Completely agree Spud. And it's when he tries too hard that he loses his concentration and discipline. He's certainly not lazy (he tracked back far more than he did last year, and there are times it would have been better if he'd stayed up front where giving away free kicks is less risky!). And the "glory ball"??? Like the one he played v Charlton for our winner? He can play as many of those as he likes!

Inagree he's similar to JET and Tomlin in terms of consistency. But very different in other ways. JET was lazy, but really made no bones about it (just watching him warming up said it all!) or the fact that football wasn't his first love and was something he did for fun. But that's what made him so appealing in a way...that and the fact that when's he was going he was just so good! Tomlin just did what suited him, thoroughly unlikeable. 

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7 minutes ago, spudski said:I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

Completely agree. One of the calls LJ has got right this autumn is not to play these two as regular starters. They have potential but are far from ready to be trusted in a team game with defensive as well as offensive duties.

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10 minutes ago, spudski said:

I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

I agree to an extent - But we’ve conceded plenty with Eliasson and Palmer not in the team too.
 

We just don’t defend well, and I think that’s as much to do with the constant tinkering  of systems and personnel as it is anything else. 
 

I have absolutely zero sympathy for LJ when it comes to this issue, even with Afobes injury. He signed them - and about 50 others. If he didn’t have the players to support them, he needn’t have bothered signing them.

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My take is that all of our play is impacted by our limited forward options, meaning we are usually forced into sideways/backwards passing or a hopeful long ball as currently only rarely is there the possibility of a good forward ball option. 

For fans this is tedious and boring and I guess for players it’s very frustrating, especially so for the more creative players, such as KP. 

Which IMO is why for the team, including KP, and the fans so much depends upon appropriately strengthening our forward line! 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Hare Island said:

Completely agree. One of the calls LJ has got right this autumn is not to play these two as regular starters. They have potential but are far from ready to be trusted in a team game with defensive as well as offensive duties.

Eliasson actually gets back and defends in front of his full back pretty well. If you look at his defensive stats it backs this up and shows he carries his defensive share a lot more than others (e.g. Massengo).

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I don’t really buy the narrative that you can’t fit Palmer and Eliasson in the same team. Now that Smith is back, we can’t set up with a lot more solid midfield containing both Smith and Nagy or all three with Brownhill. Either with Palmer playing behind a single striker or both Eliasson and Palmer playing off a striker and drifting in.

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

My suggestion for Lee, or Mark, and their staff here, then, if I may, is that they sign no more of this sort of player, and that instead they, or we, sign some of those ones where when the game starts, the opposition soon have a headache rather than a headstart.

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5 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Eliasson actually gets back and defends in front of his full back pretty well. If you look at his defensive stats it backs this up and shows he carries his defensive share a lot more than others (e.g. Massengo).

F79F088C-7328-4B4E-8D33-C18090E6009B.thumb.png.2cc1c282e94982c9a0c6c0c9c1f99faa.png277E1E61-26AD-4196-9407-5B2ED7D63209.thumb.png.714d8bd0dfaf95e55882c1bf8eb8153b.png

I don’t really buy the narrative that you can’t fit Palmer and Eliasson in the same team. Now that Smith is back, we can’t set up with a lot more solid midfield containing both Smith and Nagy or all three with Brownhill. Either with Palmer playing behind a single striker or both Eliasson and Palmer playing off a striker and drifting in.

 

 

 

 

We can't fit them in if LJ plays 2 strikers. He seems obsessed with playing 2 strikers when we could just play 4231 or 4141. Formations that most passing teams seem to play. I don't get why he persists with a strike force that don't play well together.

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5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

We can't fit them in if LJ plays 2 strikers. He seems obsessed with playing 2 strikers when we could just play 4231 or 4141. Formations that most passing teams seem to play. I don't get why he persists with a strike force that don't play well together.

4312

Brownhill Smith Nagy

            Palmer

      Striker   Striker

 

It is dependant on us getting a new striker yes.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

With all the weaknesses in his game, it's pointless having him in the team if his strengths are nullified by lack of correct movement and vision around him.

Afobe was perfect for him and Palmer excelled with his movement and understanding. Palmer's confidence grew.

Occasionally it has worked with other players...but it's way too inconsistent.

I really feel for Palmer. He needs lots of correct movement and vision around him. At the moment we have very little of it. For every great striker...you need a Palmer to supply you that pass, to make you that great striker. But to be a great striker...you also need great vision and correct movement. Right now, we don't have that.

Our strikers fail...our Midfield contribution into creating good goal scoring opportunities fails. It's a catch 22.

I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

LJ saying that starting Eliasson or Palmer is like giving the opposition a 2 goal head start is absolute ******* madness. Can’t believe he said it. What a confidence boost to them. And also what a load of crap.  

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1 minute ago, marcofisher said:

4312

Brownhill Smith Nagy

            Palmer

      Striker   Striker

 

It is dependant on us getting a new striker yes.

So no Eliasson?

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1 minute ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

My suggestion for Lee, or Mark, and their staff here, then, if I may, is that they sign no more of this sort of player, and that instead they, or we, sign some of those ones where when the game starts, the opposition soon have a headache rather than a headstart.

Firstly thanks for all the decent replies to my other post from other posters....enjoyed reading them.

In response to this one. Our structure as a Club, is to buy young hungry players that have a certain level of ability. They all have weaknesses. Hence we buy them at a 'discounted price' of the finished article.

We aim to develop that talent to the next level. To either keep or sell at a profit.

The aim is to keep turning over and improving the quality of the squad each year.

This structure will not give immediate positive results. Much of it is a gamble. It will result in imbalance in the squad. 

We will constantly have young talented players playing, but all will have flaws and be inconsistent.

And that is what we are seeing right now.  Every game a handful are inconsistent and we end up having to carry them. Palmer and Eliasson are prime examples...brilliant one game, go missing the next few.

We lack players that are top 6 level experienced. Kalas, Williams as an example are the finished article...when fully fit, you are going to get reliable consistant performances that you can have faith in.

Every team has players that underperform individually, even from experienced quality pros. But put that 'standard' together with raw inconsistent talent, you are going to witness what we watch every week. One game it will all come together...the majority of the time it will be inconsistent.

LJ is constantly looking for consistency and players he can rely on to perform well, to carry out his instruction. He tinkers to try and find it.

It's an impossible task, as our squad is full of inconsistent raw talent, and not enough of the finished article.

It's unbalanced.

So the system and structure in place by the Club won't give immediate positive return. In theory it's a slow gradual burn upwards...which in fairness we've seen.

Frustrating to watch...as we all know what each player can do on their day. Getting it to happen on the same day is a lottery.

Hence what we see most games.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

With all the weaknesses in his game, it's pointless having him in the team if his strengths are nullified by lack of correct movement and vision around him.

Afobe was perfect for him and Palmer excelled with his movement and understanding. Palmer's confidence grew.

Occasionally it has worked with other players...but it's way too inconsistent.

I really feel for Palmer. He needs lots of correct movement and vision around him. At the moment we have very little of it. For every great striker...you need a Palmer to supply you that pass, to make you that great striker. But to be a great striker...you also need great vision and correct movement. Right now, we don't have that.

Our strikers fail...our Midfield contribution into creating good goal scoring opportunities fails. It's a catch 22.

I fully understand when LJ implies, that if we play either Eliasson or Palmer, that we'll have to score say 3 goals because it's like giving the opposition a 2 goal headstart.

I've done the research re Eliasson based on empirical evidence of the last 24 games.

Without Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 1179 minutes, one every 66 minutes.

With Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 981 minutes, one every 55 minutes.

So you are correct in one sense if we disregard the fact we are generally chasing a game and playing openly anyway when he comes on.

HOWEVER 

Without Eliasson 15 goals scored in 1179

minutes and NONE since Cardiff

With Eliasson 21 goals scored in 981 minutes.

So we concede marginally more and score a hell of a lot more with Eliasson.

ITS A SCANDAL

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4 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

I've done the research re Eliasson based on empirical evidence of the last 24 games.

Without Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 1179 minutes, one every 66 minutes.

With Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 981 minutes, one every 55 minutes.

So you are correct in one sense if we disregard the fact we are generally chasing a game and playing openly anyway when he comes on.

HOWEVER 

Without Eliasson 15 goals scored in 1179

minutes and NONE since Cardiff

With Eliasson 21 goals scored in 981 minutes.

So we concede marginally more and score a hell of a lot more with Eliasson.

ITS A SCANDAL

star wars episode 6 GIF

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28 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

I've done the research re Eliasson based on empirical evidence of the last 24 games.

Without Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 1179 minutes, one every 66 minutes.

With Eliasson 18 goals conceded in 981 minutes, one every 55 minutes.

So you are correct in one sense if we disregard the fact we are generally chasing a game and playing openly anyway when he comes on.

HOWEVER 

Without Eliasson 15 goals scored in 1179

minutes and NONE since Cardiff

With Eliasson 21 goals scored in 981 minutes.

So we concede marginally more and score a hell of a lot more with Eliasson.

ITS A SCANDAL

You are correct...we do create more chances with Eliasson playing.

But as you also point out, him playing, as well as others, creates other problems on the pitch.

It's finding the right balance. And that is our problem.

Look at Leeds fans all wanting Nketiah to play over Bamford. But as Bielsa rightly points out...Bamford's overall game gives more positives. Where as playing Nketiah unbalances his side.

For sure we'll create more passes into the box with Palmer and Eliasson playing...but we'll also be massively open defensively when not with the ball.

Imo Palmer and Eliasson would fare better without Famara in the team. His movement negates their positives.

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3 hours ago, Olé said:

Forget to judge on performances? :laugh:

Perhaps "fans" have a better memory for the fact Palmer was outstanding at Preston without Afobe (him and Daniel Johnson ran the two midfields), setup the winner in minutes against Charlton without Afobe too, and was a small part of our winner at Cardiff without Afobe where he looked very comfortable and had more quality than most to see out the game (and infuriate home fans).

I think all too often "other fans" see only a few bad performances when we're on TV (at West Brom where 7 players sat back and our performance was a shambles, or Hillsborough last week), or off the bench at Ashton Gate (defending a lead against a good Reading side that pressed us second half) and come out with wild generalisations that other players seem to get away without.

Palmer was consistently among our best players and certainly our most influential at the start of the season (at Birmingham, at Derby, at home to QPR, at home to Boro, and at Preston as I said). He's the one player that offers something we simply have no alternative for in the squad, and which we desperately need - vision and creativity. With a run in the team he was POTS material.

Yes he was hopeless in the games I've highlighted above (plus was poor but no more than the team as a whole at Brentford and Luton), and he may well be the easiest scapegoat for Lee Johnson (the evidence of his pattern of selection tells us that), but don't do him the disservice of talking about performances when you have a selective memory to generalise from a handful of them.

If we send him to Swansea it will be a disgrace and reflect most poorly on the coaches who signed him and yet now apparently are suggesting they don't know what to do with him. And this Afobe dependency is one of the laziest narratives this season.

I dislike the narrative that as soon as a player someone doesn’t like on here has a poor game, it’s “see, he’s shit”, rarely any context to the rest of the team performance, so thanks for saying that in some games, others were equally as bad.  It’s the scapegoat syndrome on here.  It’s easy to look at the mistakes, like getting caught in possession, but ignore trying to find the root cause.  I accept Palmer hasn’t hit his earlier season heights, but he hasn’t been given much chance either.  Derby / Brum away he excelled because a combination of Brownhill (both games), Nagy and Massengo (one each), got the ball to him early.  He got back into defensive shape early, mainly LCM and I never have seen him not working hard.  As Spud says he’s not always disciplined defensively, but it isn’t lack of effort.

58 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Palmer and Diedhiou are incompatible imo. Palmer was outstanding when we were playing Weimann and Afobe. Even when it was Semenyo and Weimann he was very good. 
 

 

Thought the same both Preston and Brentford away.

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4 hours ago, Olé said:

Forget to judge on performances? :laugh:

Perhaps "fans" have a better memory for the fact Palmer was outstanding at Preston without Afobe (him and Daniel Johnson ran the two midfields), setup the winner in minutes against Charlton without Afobe too, and was a small part of our winner at Cardiff without Afobe where he looked very comfortable and had more quality than most to see out the game (and infuriate home fans).

I think all too often "other fans" see only a few bad performances when we're on TV (at West Brom where 7 players sat back and our performance was a shambles, or Hillsborough last week), or off the bench at Ashton Gate (defending a lead against a good Reading side that pressed us second half) and come out with wild generalisations that other players seem to get away without.

Palmer was consistently among our best players and certainly our most influential at the start of the season (at Birmingham, at Derby, at home to QPR, at home to Boro, and at Preston as I said). He's the one player that offers something we simply have no alternative for in the squad, and which we desperately need - vision and creativity. With a run in the team he was POTS material.

Yes he was hopeless in the games I've highlighted above (plus was poor but no more than the team as a whole at Brentford and Luton), and he may well be the easiest scapegoat for Lee Johnson (the evidence of his pattern of selection tells us that), but don't do him the disservice of talking about performances when you have a selective memory to generalise from a handful of them.

If we send him to Swansea it will be a disgrace and reflect most poorly on the coaches who signed him and yet now apparently are suggesting they don't know what to do with him. And this Afobe dependency is one of the laziest narratives this season.

Assists

Goals 

Key passes per game

Successful dribbles per game

Passing success

Completed passes

Just a handful of statistics where Kasey Palmer is outside the 50 top performing players in the championship. Some of them not even in the top 100. I appreciate he's not had a lot of full games but it still doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Your selectively quoting a handful of good moments is no different to my point arguing the opposite. 

I have nothing against Palmer, but the stats don't lie, he's absolutely miles off the best performing in a similar role in the league this season from what we've seen so far, and I don't think it's at all lazy to say that the best we've seen of him is when Afobe was in the side. 

Of course it doesn't help that for much of the season we've played a system without a number 10, but don't pretend that recalling a handful of good moments is any different to the bad ones, of which there's been just as many. 

For the record I think he's a decent player who is being stifled by our tactics and setup, like many of our more creative attacking players are. I don't understand why we spent big money on him only to use a system that doesn't have a number 10, but that's one for Ashton and Johnson to explain....

Big question marks about our recruitment for me. I don't know if it was a panic buy or what but questions need asking.

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12 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Assists

Goals 

Key passes per game

Successful dribbles per game

Passing success

Completed passes

Just a handful of statistics where Kasey Palmer is outside the 50 top performing players in the championship. Some of them not even in the top 100. I appreciate he's not had a lot of full games but it still doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Your selectively quoting a handful of good moments is no different to my point arguing the opposite. 

I have nothing against Palmer, but the stats don't lie, he's absolutely miles off the best performing in a similar role in the league this season from what we've seen so far, and I don't think it's at all lazy to say that the best we've seen of him is when Afobe was in the side. 

Of course it doesn't help that for much of the season we've played a system without a number 10, but don't pretend that recalling a handful of good moments is any different to the bad ones, of which there's been just as many. 

For the record I think he's a decent player who is being stifled by our tactics and setup, like many of our more creative attacking players are. I don't understand why we spent big money on him only to use a system that doesn't have a number 10, but that's one for Ashton and Johnson to explain....

Big question marks about our recruitment for me. I don't know if it was a panic buy or what but questions need asking.

It’s all about ‘ horses for courses ‘ you wouldn’t expect Usain Bolt to win a marathon and yet he is the fastest man in the world ( after me when I have to do the shopping near to kick off time ) . 

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9 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It’s all about ‘ horses for courses ‘ you wouldn’t expect Usain Bolt to win a marathon and yet he is the fastest man in the world ( after me when I have to do the shopping near to kick off time ) . 

No but you do expect a number ten to be creating chances and assisting goals. 

I really have nothing against Palmer but none of our attacking players are delivering much. And a lot of that comes down to the negative tactics and dull, pedestrian brand of ‘football’ we play rather than the individuals. 

It will be baffling to me to see Palmer loaned to a rival so soon after signing him for big money. 

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