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Johnsons position under scrutiny.


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11 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’m not picking a fight - i’m asking you how you formed an opinion about players’ thoughts if (as you say) you don’t form opinions from seeing/listening to interviews.

And you’ve basically confirmed above you formed that opinion from interviews....”When I’ve seen a player discussing his (LJ’s) coaching ability, it’s been positive...” - we’ll, I’m assuming you mean interviews when you wrote that line. 

You can see why I’m confused. 

You’re confused because you’re taking my stance on two entirely different matters and conflating them. 

For the avoidance of any doubt 

I believe the time is right to change the man at the helm because Johnson has taken us as far as he can. That’s an opinion, of mine, based on what I see on the pitch at Ashton Gate. For further clarity, that opinion was formed of my own free will and without the involvement of Aaron Wilbraham.

None of that changes the fact that when I’ve seen or heard people discussing his coaching it’s been complimentary. Once again, I’ll ask you, have you seen or heard anything to the contrary? 

I have absolutely no idea why you’re determined to make this so complicated and resurrect the same discussion we had weeks ago. But I hope I’ve managed to clear up some of your confusion, and we can stop derailing a decent thread - because you are intent on debating semantics - when you’ve completely got the wrong end of the stick in the first place. 

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56 minutes ago, Olé said:

I think you meant to say that you learned of Cotterill's sacking, rather than that he was about to be sacked, otherwise you're conferring enormous importance in your lunches.

SL certainly will have a long to-do list when he axes a manager, but I'm hopeful telling the manager himself is a bit higher on that list than telling the Senior Reds Xmas Lunch.

Perhaps SL doesn't listen to the board, but does listen to senior reds?

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14 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'd be surprised if there were serious conversations taking place in regard to LJs position, as of now. Very surprised. 

I think his position remains secure for the time being. 

Agree completely! I'll publicly remove my underwear on the centre circle at half-time and consume it if he's gone before the end of the season. The only caveat is if we keep plunging and plunge into the relegation zone. If that happens I can see a seasoned head being bought in prior to the end of the season with the carrot of a large bonus for keeping us up or a permanent position. I think we'll get another odd wins and draws to stop that occurring but we'll finish a lot lower than last year. LJ's comments, tactical decisions and squaring up to the opposition management on a regular basis are big concerns.

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5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

 

I have no agenda, but I know both sets of supporters (Forest and Portsmouth) were delighted to see him leave. Forest had 3 managers in the next season and finished 11 places higher; Portsmouth admittedly jumped from the frying pan to the fire with Appleton, but MA had to release 10 first team players. You have to wonder would Cotterill have done any better had he stayed. 

The City stat you quote @TETBURY MASSIVE just proves what I wrote. He is a truly great lower league manager. Never tasted higher success however.

A few anecdotal accounts from fans on forums who may well have had their own agenda ( e.g. simply didn't like Cotterill) are not good enough.

The facts speak for themselves, and they are highly in Cotterill's favour at both clubs.

They shout loudly that you are wrong when you describe his managerial stints at those clubs as 'poor', and having been pulled up on that wildly inaccurate comment with facts to the contrary you really should accept that.

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43 minutes ago, maxjak said:

The geriatric "Night of the long knives"  Should be turned into a BBC drama?

Agreed East Enders and coronation street is more entertaining on these threads. I think every one is saying sack him and why do they not just say it.

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8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

A few anecdotal accounts from fans on forums who may well have had their own agenda ( e.g. simply didn't like Cotterill) are not good enough.

The facts speak for themselves, and they are highly in Cotterill's favour at both clubs.

They shout loudly that you are wrong when you describe his managerial stints at those clubs as 'poor', and having been pulled up on that wildly inaccurate comment with facts to the contrary you really should accept that.

If finishing 19th is good then Johnson must be great! As I said, next season they had the same owners, the same chaos, but finished 8th

Cotts has simply never succeeded above third tier level - but it's always someone else's fault, apparently.

Oh and I'm not going by "a few anecdotal reports" about his time there. I know some fans both from down here and from my time working in Nottingham. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Rich_s said:

Agree completely! I'll publicly remove my underwear on the centre circle at half-time and consume it if he's gone before the end of the season. The only caveat is if we keep plunging and plunge into the relegation zone. If that happens I can see a seasoned head being bought in prior to the end of the season with the carrot of a large bonus for keeping us up or a permanent position. I think we'll get another odd wins and draws to stop that occurring but we'll finish a lot lower than last year. LJ's comments, tactical decisions and squaring up to the opposition management on a regular basis are big concerns.

Looking at summer signings I think LJ had determined the way he wanted to play this season.

Signing Dasilva and Kalas permanently kept in place half of last seasons solid defence. Nagy, Palmer and initially Nketiah were the basis of a more positive attacking style, with Afobe coming in when the Nketiah deal feel through.

Unfortunately, these  plans went out of the window with injuries to Dasilv, Afobe, Kalas  and Nagy, all compounded by further injuries to Hunt and Moore.With hindsight, I get the feeling that LJ has become increasingly frustrated by having to make do and mend  with team selection through much of the season, never having what would have been first choices available. 

Unfortunately when he has got injured players back, for whatever reason it has not gone well - it's gone badly in fact -  and perhaps his sideline antics, along with the return of his public criticism of players,  are a sign of that frustration boiling over. In any line of work, seeing your boss losing his rag is not good for employees confidence.

I think LJ has enough in the bank to keep his job for now, but how he conducts himself could change that - he only has to look back to his Dad's demise to see how things can change very quickly. 

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31 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could you factor in financial reality as the club was growing and FFP vs the backing- notably but not exclusively for Gayle- that you are presumably referring to?

Our turnover- our entire turnover- in 2015/16 was £14,175,396. Our expenditure on wages (that isn't just football granted but surely more than 100% is) was £17,432,898.

Gayle? No. Maguire or Gray- possibly but we were competing with Parachute clubs or we lost out to them on those 2.

Granted we could have sold them big down the line, but at that time, elements of what Cotts wanted seemed to be just not that feasible!

Maybe I'm overstating it but Gayle certainly wouldn't have been.

That's the crux of it isn't it - he could identify very good players but ultimately the finances weren't workable. Ties into the rumours about the deals being scuppered behind his back too. 

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's the crux of it isn't it - he could identify very good players but ultimately the finances weren't workable. Ties into the rumours about the deals being scuppered behind his back too. 

Genuinely think that had he waited a year, maybe 2 but certainly a year he would have been able to build on our promotion squad quite well. Not saying we necessarily have a poor squad now, but LJ cannot get the best out of it IMO.

That would have taken a level of patience hitherto unseen by Cotts though- probably the club were trying to get the deals down to fit our financial plan/FFP which would make sense when it comes to the deals being scuppered claims.

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3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

If finishing 19th is good then Johnson must be great! As I said, next season they had the same owners, the same chaos, but finished 8th

Cotts has simply never succeeded above third tier level - but it's always someone else's fault, apparently.

Oh and I'm not going by "a few anecdotal reports" about his time there. I know some fans both from down here and from my time working in Nottingham. 

 

It's still the opinion of a few fans, meaningless in the wider context.

'Always someone else's fault apparently'  ... Mmm - sounds like you don't like Cotterill and this is tarnishing your view.

He was a success at Burnley - I doubt he'd have become the longest serving Championship manager otherwise.

Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone with such a fixed view, and unwilling to alter it one iota even when presented with undeniable facts to the contrary.

Just to reiterate you were completely wrong in describing his tenures at Pompey and Forest as 'poor'.

 l''ll leave the exchange on that note.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Genuinely think that had he waited a year, maybe 2 but certainly a year he would have been able to build on our promotion squad quite well. Not saying we necessarily have a poor squad now, but LJ cannot get the best out of it IMO.

That would have taken a level of patience hitherto unseen by Cotts though- probably the club were trying to get the deals down to fit our financial plan/FFP which would make sense when it comes to the deals being scuppered claims.

I think Cotterill, a bit like Gary Johnson, is a short term manager. He's not necessarily that bothered about sustainability and the long term - but the current season and maybe the one after. 

This has an impact on how he recruits and probably why there was clearly a disconnect between him and the board on how to recruit in that summer. 

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5 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

It's still the opinion of a few fans, meaningless in the wider context.

'Always someone else's fault apparently'  ... Mmm - sounds like you don't like Cotterill and this is tarnishing your view.

He was a success at Burnley - I doubt he'd have become the longest serving Championship manager otherwise.

Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone with such a fixed view, and unwilling to alter it one iota even when presented with undeniable facts to the contrary.

Just to reiterate you were completely wrong in describing his tenures at Pompey and Forest as 'poor'.

 l''ll leave the exchange on that note.

The thing is Noggers that we have a fan base divided over LJ's tenure here, with some regarding the year on year progress as good, while others pull it apart based on a variety of factors           

( including his height in some cases!).

That being the case, it is hardly surprising that those same fans will have differing opinions on Cotts success, or otherwise, as a manager.

Ask City fans to name our best 11 currently and you would probably end up with as many permutations as LJ has managed so far this season, so to expect unanimity on anything is a big ask.

 

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5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think Cotterill, a bit like Gary Johnson, is a short term manager. He's not necessarily that bothered about sustainability and the long term - but the current season and maybe the one after. 

This has an impact on how he recruits and probably why there was clearly a disconnect between him and the board on how to recruit in that summer. 

....and that would have put him in direct conflict with SL when addressing the owners long term plans for moving towards sustainability.

In any line of work, it doesn't matter how good a manager you are, if you're not prepared to accept and work within your boss's plans and instructions there is only one way it will end.

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1 hour ago, TETBURY MASSIVE said:

Umm.... your entitled to your opinion but sometimes blinkered views get in the way of the facts..... left Portsmouth & Forest in better positions then when he started. 

Portsmouth = 2 Administrations and 3 sets of owners. 

Forest = Took over from McClaren when bottom and finished mid-table, sacked when new owners came in with nothing to do with results. 

City.... well we all know what happened there.... Bottom at Christmas To Mid Table to Champions in 18 Months..... 

As I said... don't let facts get in the way of agendas as it spoils the tone of the forum. 

Didn’t the chairman that brought him in die suddenly?

54 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

What I wouldn’t give to rewind the time. 

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11 minutes ago, downendcity said:

....and that would have put him in direct conflict with SL when addressing the owners long term plans for moving towards sustainability.

In any line of work, it doesn't matter how good a manager you are, if you're not prepared to accept and work within your boss's plans and instructions there is only one way it will end.

That’s exactly what happened. 

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3 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It's a funny one. Looking at the stats, it appears to be an obvious conclusion to make. But I do wonder if being more potent up top - a fit Afobe, or the wunder kid Eddie - with pace or power and clinical finishing, might have a knock on consequence of improving us at the back.

Might spread belief across the team. And beyond.

We might, once or twice, have scored first, where instead we fell behind; or, against Blackburn say, have equalised before they doubled their lead. In that game, scored the one that went across the face of goal and merely needed a tap in.

I can't help thinking having more threat and thrust up front will improve the team all over, putting the opposition's defence under greater pressure, and simultaneously easing the pressure on our own (maybe it doesn't work like that, which I look forward to someone on here telling me). And I do think LJ has been unlucky, first with the Eddie to Leeds thing, then Afobe's injury. To be a promotion or play off contender, he needs an upgrade on Fam (as might any future coach here).

Having said that, it is Lee's job here to deal with injuries and setbacks and things going wrong. To "manage," in spite of things. The Eddie/Afobe attacking situation has derailed the first half of this season.

 

Hard to disagree with any of this, I’d still like us to shore up the leaky defence, having a goal scorer would also be a nice bonus.

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2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I agree with you on the coaching point. LJ may well have some fresh ideas that work at some level. Just think he’s run out of ideas for our first team set up. 

Ashton Gate will never be ‘toxic’ so he has no worries there. And I don’t think LJ will get jeered out of the club. I may be wrong. He’s just come to the end I think, that’s all. That doesn’t need too much drama.

With regards to you saying you base your opinions on what you see and not from interviews - how did you come to the opinion that all the players you’ve seen discussing LJ think he’s a great coach then? It you didn’t get their opinions from interviews, where did you get them from? 

 

Let LJ coach the U18s or U23s even at City. Probably his level actually.

BUT he is not capable of taking a side up from the Championship. Way out of his depth. Everyone can see that. 

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2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Have to disagree.

Portsmouth and Forest was basket case clubs when he joined them. Portsmouth were constantly on the point of liquidation and his performance there had him regularly linked with other clubs. Forest were a mess at the time and it was very much a firefighting exercise.

Not brilliant at Forest, but certainly not 'poor' under the circumstances. He avoided relegation by 10 points, and that, along with steadying the club, was his main task when appointed.

In fact to describe either managerial spells as 'poor' is simply wrong imo.

What he showed was he could withstand enormous pressure and keep his clubs stable with little or no money to spend.

At Burnley he had to sell his best players every season without having the luxury of spending all the money on replacements yet became the longest serving manager in the Championship

What he could have done at City, if backed immediately after promotion, is something I imagine all City fans will forever wonder about.

 

I think there are a few with insight into a lot of the scenario around SC @TETBURY MASSIVE etc anyone prepared to comment?

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1 hour ago, Maesknoll Red said:

A goal scorer would be a welcome addition, but I still believe success starts with a sold defence.

Never a truer word, but not sexy enough for us is it? The defence is an utter shambles of a unit, yesterday was an outrage we handed the points the the Bees , Hunt is a liability in defence, Williams past his best, we content ourselves in picking up scraps that no one else wants. Truth is we are shambolic with recruitment, no plans it seems, no idea, and the occasional gems we make deflated and frustrated, in Massengo and Nagi we have real talent, the heart of the team should be built around the latter especially. Add to the awful  managing a game...well, even my Missus would have adjusted the formation after Williams sending off, eye watering stupidity, that alone should cost him his job.

Enough already!!!

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15 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Never a truer word, but not sexy enough for us is it? The defence is an utter shambles of a unit, yesterday was an outrage we handed the points the the Bees , Hunt is a liability in defence, Williams past his best, we content ourselves in picking up scraps that no one else wants. Truth is we are shambolic with recruitment, no plans it seems, no idea, and the occasional gems we make deflated and frustrated, in Massengo and Nagi we have real talent, the heat of the team should be built around the latter especially. Add to the awful  managing a game...well, even my Missus would have adjusted the formation after Williams sending off, eye watering stupidity, that alone should cost him his job.

Enough already!!!

Say what you mean!  :laugh:!

Hunt has been a liability recently and yesterday worse than I have seen a football player at our club since Hutchins. However he has had some decent games. The bloke is bereft of any thing close to form. 
 

Williams is here because we were desperate. Now everyone is fit LJ has a choice. Moore is excellent but LJ likes the old guard and thus Williams plays with Kalas. Neither of which are quick. I don’t blame Williams for the sending off it was the ineptitude of the players in front of him that put him in the position to have to make a choice. Luckily this will give Moore the game time he deserves in a leaky defence. 
 

the rest of your post sums it up. 38 first team players and we are utter dross for a good many of the reasons you state!

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1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think Cotterill, a bit like Gary Johnson, is a short term manager. He's not necessarily that bothered about sustainability and the long term - but the current season and maybe the one after. 

This has an impact on how he recruits and probably why there was clearly a disconnect between him and the board on how to recruit in that summer. 

Yes, I reckon Cotts was employed with the short term aim of avoiding absolute disaster that season and a second successive relegation.

I don't suppose any one inside the club thought: he'll piss this league next season and have us back in the Championship while the ground is still a building site.

It was almost like Cotts had us a year ahead of schedule and we woul've not been unhappy to hit the Championship with 26000 seats and everything shiny and new in August 2016, with a few more quid to throw at wages and what have you.

 

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51 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Never a truer word, but not sexy enough for us is it? The defence is an utter shambles of a unit, yesterday was an outrage we handed the points the the Bees , Hunt is a liability in defence, Williams past his best, we content ourselves in picking up scraps that no one else wants. Truth is we are shambolic with recruitment, no plans it seems, no idea, and the occasional gems we make deflated and frustrated, in Massengo and Nagi we have real talent, the heart of the team should be built around the latter especially. Add to the awful  managing a game...well, even my Missus would have adjusted the formation after Williams sending off, eye watering stupidity, that alone should cost him his job.

Enough already!!!

Kalas and Dasilva, scraps that no one else wants? 

They formed half of last season's strong defence but their absence through injury for most of the season has been a big factor. 

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3 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Kalas and Dasilva, scraps that no one else wants? 

They formed half of last season's strong defence but their absence through injury for most of the season has been a big factor. 

Wages that not everyone is willing to pay I suspect.  The key player missing from last season is Webster and it is becoming clearer each game.  Only real option to replace him is Moore who simply must play now.

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1 minute ago, The Bard said:

Wages that not everyone is willing to pay I suspect.  The key player missing from last season is Webster and it is becoming clearer each game.  Only real option to replace him is Moore who simply must play now.

I think what we need is to be able to play our best back 4 regularly - something injuries have prevented until now. 

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