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Ken Abbott

Offside goals

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Who knows what difference it would have made but surely there was a big suspicion of offside for Brentford’s first and third goals. 

They looked questionable at the time and whilst the Sky highlights aren’t conclusive they certainly would have been VAR’d if it was used in the Championship. 

Particularly if the first one had been ruled out it could have led to a very different game. 
 

 

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10 hours ago, Ken Abbott said:

Who knows what difference it would have made but surely there was a big suspicion of offside for Brentford’s first and third goals. 

They looked questionable at the time and whilst the Sky highlights aren’t conclusive they certainly would have been VAR’d if it was used in the Championship. 

Particularly if the first one had been ruled out it could have led to a very different game. 
 

 

This sounds like a post match Johnson interview. 

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10 hours ago, Ken Abbott said:

Who knows what difference it would have made but surely there was a big suspicion of offside for Brentford’s first and third goals. 

They looked questionable at the time and whilst the Sky highlights aren’t conclusive they certainly would have been VAR’d if it was used in the Championship. 

Particularly if the first one had been ruled out it could have led to a very different game. 
 

 

Forst one wasnt offside as came off hunt foot.

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If he was offside it’s when the ball was kicked, as soon as he goes to chase it he should be flaggged. From my seat he looked 3/4 yards off. Problem was the Lino was further behind play than the test of our defence.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I remember one very late flag, can't remember which end it was but clearly offside yet took a very long time to reach the correct decision.

That was second half down their left - it was Watkins.

And that’s what annoys me about the current offside rule,  i.e. the linesman only flags when the player touches the ball. For the first Brentford goal, if Watkins is offside but the linesman doesn’t flag straightaway, does Hunt go for it assuming that he might be onside, and risk touching it, which now plays him onside, (what appears to have happened) or leave it, which if the forward then isn’t flagged potentially has a clear run ahead and everyone blames the defender for not going for it.

It’s a pretty impossible conundrum for defenders, and to make that decision in a split second relies on instinct rather than rational thought. If however the linesman flags straight away as soon as he/she sees the player is offside, whether or not the forward is going for the ball, everyone knows where they stand.

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2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If he was offside it’s when the ball was kicked, as soon as he goes to chase it he should be flaggged. From my seat he looked 3/4 yards off. Problem was the Lino was further behind play than the test of our defence.

I’ve no idea whether he was offside or not, but the offside (if it was) would be at the point Raya booted it, not when Hunt did.  This whole thing of linesman waiting (if that’s what happened) is wrong.  At some point someone is gonna get injured because they carried on, e.g. get flattened by a keeper, just as the lino then decides to flag.

2 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

That was second half down their left - it was Watkins.

And that’s what annoys me about the current offside rule,  i.e. the linesman only flags when the player touches the ball. For the first Brentford goal, if Watkins is offside but the linesman doesn’t flag straightaway, does Hunt go for it assuming that he might be onside, and risk touching it, which now plays him onside, (what appears to have happened) or leave it, which if the forward then isn’t flagged potentially has a clear run ahead and everyone blames the defender for not going for it.

It’s a pretty impossible conundrum for defenders, and to make that decision in a split second relies on instinct rather than rational thought. If however the linesman flags straight away as soon as he/she sees the player is offside, whether or not the forward is going for the ball, everyone knows where they stand.

Ah, you beat me to it.

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14 minutes ago, Lez said:

Forst one wasnt offside as came off hunt foot.

When the ball was played, before it hit Hunts' foot, he was 2 yards off......perfect view from our seats.

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The only thing VAR would show in forensic detail was if Hunt and Williams had made their tackles and if Smith and Kalas weren't ambling around like spectators then the goal wouldn't have occured.

The 3rd: they scored from the second passage of play after the scorer was in an offside position and after we'd played the ball.

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18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I remember one very late flag, can't remember which end it was but clearly offside yet took a very long time to reach the correct decision.

Brentford attacking the Atyeo.

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25 minutes ago, Lez said:

Forst one wasnt offside as came off hunt foot.

Not sure thats how it would work. If he was offside when initial ball was played and hunt went for it and touched it. Thats still offside regardless of hunt touching it? Or have i got that completely wrong?

 

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

... but the offside (if it was) would be at the point Raya booted it, not when Hunt did.  This whole thing of linesman waiting (if that’s what happened) is wrong.

Wrong on both counts.

A player only commits an offence when they are actively involved in play, being in an offside position is not of itself an offence.

The officials indicate an offence has occured at the point of the offence occuring.

You may not like it but that's what Law 11 says.

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11 hours ago, Ken Abbott said:

Who knows what difference it would have made but surely there was a big suspicion of offside for Brentford’s first and third goals. 

They looked questionable at the time and whilst the Sky highlights aren’t conclusive they certainly would have been VAR’d if it was used in the Championship. 

Particularly if the first one had been ruled out it could have led to a very different game. 
 

 

No chance the first was offside. The third I need to see back but honestly if it was offside don’t think it would’ve made much of a difference 

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13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

the offside (if it was) would be at the point Raya booted it,

That’s what I said 😇

Lino was yards behind play a lot of the start of the game, got abuse after the goal, them made a point of staring across the line of the last player. Problem then was, he had no idea when the ball had been kicked. Gave a couple of poor offsides in our favour too. 
The flag should go up as soon as the offside player moves towards the ball. Part of the problem may be VAR. they are told not to flag , so I wonder if this is muddying the water.

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I've just re-run the highlights on Quest. The first is a long ball over the top from the keeper and the camera doesn't show the players when the ball is played.

It does look like Hunt stretched out a leg and may have touched it though. The real problem here has been evident for a number of weeks now, we just don't seam to be able to deal with long punt over the top. It doesn't help when Hunt falls on his ass trying to defend.

For the third, Watkins and their 31 were both well onside although again to can't see where Benrahma was when the ball was played, when he does appear in shot at the bottom of the screen he does look to be just onside.

While were on 'what ifs' their second is interesting - we could have seen a penalty and a red for Bentley if they hadn't scored.

 

Anyway, time to move on - embarrassed by the score and Johnson' Red though. 

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25 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Wrong on both counts.

A player only commits an offence when they are actively involved in play, being in an offside position is not of itself an offence.

The officials indicate an offence has occured at the point of the offence occuring.

You may not like it but that's what Law 11 says.

Yes, I didn’t word it correct, I was trying to convey that had he received it without Hunt’s intervention, it would’ve been his position when Raya kicked it.  

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45 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

That was second half down their left - it was Watkins.

And that’s what annoys me about the current offside rule,  i.e. the linesman only flags when the player touches the ball. For the first Brentford goal, if Watkins is offside but the linesman doesn’t flag straightaway, does Hunt go for it assuming that he might be onside, and risk touching it, which now plays him onside, (what appears to have happened) or leave it, which if the forward then isn’t flagged potentially has a clear run ahead and everyone blames the defender for not going for it.

It’s a pretty impossible conundrum for defenders, and to make that decision in a split second relies on instinct rather than rational thought. If however the linesman flags straight away as soon as he/she sees the player is offside, whether or not the forward is going for the ball, everyone knows where they stand.

i agree the current rule is ridiculous

Edited by city1983
spelling

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32 minutes ago, East End Old Boy said:

Brentford attacking the Atyeo.

There was an incident not long into the second half where the ball was played forward the linesman flagged for offside then put his flag down and the move continued with Brentford getting a corner from it.

The guy was clearly offside but it was a misplaced pass from one of our players that played the forward in.

I was stood in the disabled area chatting to some people I know and a steward I always say hello to as the move happened right infront of me. 

I did have to laugh though one of the guys to my left shouted to the linesman that he was having a shocker, to which the linesman turned around and told him to "F**k off"

I took this picture at the same time 

20200101_161120.jpg

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2 minutes ago, city1983 said:

i agree the current rule is ridiculous

The old clear daylight between the attacker and defender was a lot simpler and as Brian Clough once said,if a player isn’t interfering with play what’s he doing on the pitch(or something like that)

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1 hour ago, KevP said:

When the ball was played, before it hit Hunts' foot, he was 2 yards off......perfect view from our seats.

It doesnt matter. The player is technically only interfering once it comes off Hunts boot.

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2 minutes ago, Lez said:

It doesnt matter. The player is technically only interfering once it comes off Hunts boot.

Whatever mate....not sure about your take on it tbh....I thought it was when the ball was played....as did many around me. We were shit and beaten by the better side so its irrelvant now. 

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Maybe we're not so good with the offside rule, ever changing though it is.

I make that 3 goals we've conceded where there have been claims of offside. Assombalonga's one vs Middlesbrough caused a lot of debate on here and now these two.

The two at WBA were certainly offside so no blame can be attached.

On the flipside, how many goals did Weimann have disallowed for offside last season?? At least two were out and out errors, one wasn't seen or stuck on highlights (Derby away I believe) and think a couple were- think it was at least 5 though.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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12 hours ago, Ken Abbott said:

Who knows what difference it would have made but surely there was a big suspicion of offside for Brentford’s first and third goals. 

They looked questionable at the time and whilst the Sky highlights aren’t conclusive they certainly would have been VAR’d if it was used in the Championship. 

Particularly if the first one had been ruled out it could have led to a very different game. 
 

 

The third goal was absolutely fine, the first is not possible to see because when the keeper kicks the ball the Brentford striker isn’t in the picture. 

Re offside goals, I thought Eliasson‘s goal at Charlton was offside when Brownhill played it through to him , I’m surprised no one asked about that one on here at the time! 

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1 hour ago, GTFABM said:

Not sure thats how it would work. If he was offside when initial ball was played and hunt went for it and touched it. Thats still offside regardless of hunt touching it? Or have i got that completely wrong?

 

Your correct, as soon as an attacking player makes a run towards the ball, he becomes ‘active’. 

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We had this earlier in the season didn't we? Ball came off the head of one of our players where a player in an 'offside' position then became active and scored? 

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’ve no idea whether he was offside or not, but the offside (if it was) would be at the point Raya booted it, not when Hunt did.  This whole thing of linesman waiting (if that’s what happened) is wrong.  At some point someone is gonna get injured because they carried on, e.g. get flattened by a keeper, just as the lino then decides to flag.

The fa golden boy pulled his hamstring yest going for ball whilst offside im sure they will change this now its happened to him :laugh:

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, I didn’t word it correct, I was trying to convey that had he received it without Hunt’s intervention, it would’ve been his position when Raya kicked it.  

Indeed, had Hunt not touched it it's likely he would have been given offside at the spot where he touched the ball, not where he was standing when the ball was punted forward. 

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1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

Your correct, as soon as an attacking player makes a run towards the ball, he becomes ‘active’. 

Wrong.

He should be, but isn't in accordance with Law 11.

Moving in any direction doesn't make or negate one from being active (hence the pointless way Static regularly puts his arms in the air as if to declare himself inactive when caught offside.) The degree of 'activeness' relates to the relative position of player to opponent(s), ball and whether or not he's gained (or sought to gain) an UNFAIR advantage. Like offside, a player may lawfully gain an advantage when inactive in an offside position if such advantage is adjudged accidental. In yesterday's case the official likely adjudged Hunt should have controlled or cleared the ball.

 

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9 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Wrong.

He should be, but isn't in accordance with Law 11.

Moving in any direction doesn't make or negate one from being active (hence the pointless way Static regularly puts his arms in the air as if to declare himself inactive when caught offside.) The degree of 'activeness' relates to the relative position of player to opponent(s), ball and whether or not he's gained (or sought to gain) an UNFAIR advantage. Like offside, a player may lawfully gain an advantage when inactive in an offside position if such advantage is adjudged accidental. In yesterday's case the official likely adjudged Hunt should have controlled or cleared the ball.

 

So the Brentford player would have been judged to have been inactive then and accidentally gained an advantage from Hunt's poor play, despite the fact he was clearly running down the pitch after his own goalie's clearance? - If so, the rule seems ridiculous.

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11 minutes ago, Coxy27 said:

So the Brentford player would have been judged to have been inactive then and accidentally gained an advantage from Hunt's poor play, despite the fact he was clearly running down the pitch after his own goalie's clearance? - If so, the rule seems ridiculous.

Assuming he wasn't onside when the ball was punted forward that appears to be so. As somebody else pointed out, 2nd time it's happened to us at home this season.

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3 hours ago, Lez said:

Forst one wasnt offside as came off hunt foot.

The long pass that lead to the goal was the offside, player at least 4 yards off, linos attention was elsewhere and he was scrabbling to catch up with play, useless streak of**** same as last time he was here, was right up with Korey getting elbowed and no reaction at all!

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25 minutes ago, dave36 said:

The long pass that lead to the goal was the offside, player at least 4 yards off, linos attention was elsewhere and he was scrabbling to catch up with play, useless streak of**** same as last time he was here, was right up with Korey getting elbowed and no reaction at all!

Yes but he wasnt interfering with play he only becomes relevant once hunt touches the ball to him. Lino was right.

3 hours ago, GTFABM said:

Not sure thats how it would work. If he was offside when initial ball was played and hunt went for it and touched it. Thats still offside regardless of hunt touching it? Or have i got that completely wrong?

 

Got it wrong. Similar to assombalonga v boro earlier in season when Moore head it.

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Surely he has put some sort of pressure on Hunt to play it and became active before Hunt touched it, hes running yards in front of him. Hunt obviously doesn't know he was offside therefore he cannot take the risk of leaving it, or chancing the lino getting the decision correct.

Letter of the law I get it, but surely it needs changing.

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2 hours ago, Lez said:

Yes but he wasnt interfering with play he only becomes relevant once hunt touches the ball to him. Lino was right.

Got it wrong. Similar to assombalonga v boro earlier in season when Moore head it.

Well you learn something new every day. Cheers for that

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5 hours ago, handballbygordonparr said:

I've just re-run the highlights on Quest. The first is a long ball over the top from the keeper and the camera doesn't show the players when the ball is played.

It does look like Hunt stretched out a leg and may have touched it though. The real problem here has been evident for a number of weeks now, we just don't seam to be able to deal with long punt over the top. It doesn't help when Hunt falls on his ass trying to defend.

 

It was even worse than that. The ball became tangled in his legs and he then duly released it to cue up the Brentford guy.

He also, as has been noted, made glancing contact with the goal kick to play Mbuemo (sp?) onside.

A bit of an utter 'mare for JH that goal and that game generally.

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As George Best once said if you are the pitch you are interfering with play. Watkins was offside when the ball was played! So offside before hunt touches the ball ! 

There is a grey area here which linesman are not sure about. When a player  comes back into on on side from an offside position & touches the ball the linesman puts his flag up. Like Andres Weimann goal via Villa last season. The problem is the lack of understanding and interpretation of the rule it’s self 

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1 hour ago, wood_red said:

Surely he has put some sort of pressure on Hunt to play it and became active before Hunt touched it, hes running yards in front of him. Hunt obviously doesn't know he was offside therefore he cannot take the risk of leaving it, or chancing the lino getting the decision correct.

Letter of the law I get it, but surely it needs changing.

Thats why i thought that couldn’t be correct. Saying that i still don’t want VAR amywhere near the championship. Some of the decisions have been rediculous recently. A boot lace offside or a shoulder

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1 hour ago, GTFABM said:

Thats why i thought that couldn’t be correct. Saying that i still don’t want VAR amywhere near the championship. Some of the decisions have been rediculous recently. A boot lace offside or a shoulder

I think it's to do with phases of the play. Once hunt touched the ball it was another phase in which Watkins becomes interfering. The initial phase he wasnt. I think.....

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1 hour ago, Lez said:

I think it's to do with phases of the play. Once hunt touched the ball it was another phase in which Watkins becomes interfering. The initial phase he wasnt. I think.....

That's pretty much it, Hunt has deliberately tried to play the ball so therefore Watkins isn't committing an offence once the ball gets to him.

 

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6 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

So the Brentford player would have been judged to have been inactive then and accidentally gained an advantage from Hunt's poor play, despite the fact he was clearly running down the pitch after his own goalie's clearance? - If so, the rule seems ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, it happened earlier in the season against Middlesbrough I think. Think it was Moore stretching to head it, as he wasn’t sure if the striker was on or not. Needs changing ASAP. COYR 

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9 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

If he was offside it’s when the ball was kicked, as soon as he goes to chase it he should be flaggged. From my seat he looked 3/4 yards off. Problem was the Lino was further behind play than the test of our defence.

He certainly looked like he had a good Christmas!!!

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6 hours ago, hertsexile said:

The problem is the lack of understanding and interpretation of the rule it’s self 

Generally the only people having an issue understanding Law 11 are the fans and the fact they do not understand that being in an offside position is not in of itself an offence. Like the pointless derision of officials when a free kick is given for offside in one's own half. "You don't know what you're doing..." Well actually he does.....

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14 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Wrong.

He should be, but isn't in accordance with Law 11.

Moving in any direction doesn't make or negate one from being active (hence the pointless way Static regularly puts his arms in the air as if to declare himself inactive when caught offside.) The degree of 'activeness' relates to the relative position of player to opponent(s), ball and whether or not he's gained (or sought to gain) an UNFAIR advantage. Like offside, a player may lawfully gain an advantage when inactive in an offside position if such advantage is adjudged accidental. In yesterday's case the official likely adjudged Hunt should have controlled or cleared the ball.

 

I’m unsure nowadays re the offside law as the braindead people who decide and keep changing rules continue to ruin football, as someone once said ‘if he’s not interfering with play, then what’s he doing on the pitch?’

Clearly in Brentford’s 1st goal and Assombalonga’s earlier on this season, the initial passes are intended for the players in question, so how their in their latest shite offside rule they are not deemed inactive is ridiculous.

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4 hours ago, BCFC11 said:

I’m unsure nowadays re the offside law as the braindead people who decide and keep changing rules continue to ruin football, as someone once said ‘if he’s not interfering with play, then what’s he doing on the pitch?’

Clearly in Brentford’s 1st goal and Assombalonga’s earlier on this season, the initial passes are intended for the players in question, so how their in their latest shite offside rule they are not deemed inactive is ridiculous.

Law 11 was rewritten to promote attacking football, favour the attacking side and increase the number of goals scored. All positive save, if like us, you've no strikers or attacking options on the park.

Of course where VAR's been introduced all the positives have been negated.

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