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Way too many players.


barneyrubble

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Can't believe the amount of players we have accumulated. We have experienced players not even making the bench,so many on loan and for the future that I can't even remember half of them. Anyone know how many we actually have? 

Don't really see how we can expect to develop a style of play when we're coaching  so many players.

We need to make judgments on these players not in starting teams and move them on if there not going to play. It's no wonder we lose money when you look at the amount of players and management staff we have.

Personally would scrap the under 23 and just have u 18. If we want to keep them at 19 then send them on loan. It seems like we want to sign everyone just in case they come through when the reality is they don't.

Our record for developing players is poor to say the least, how many of yesterday's team were signed from elsewhere?

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10 minutes ago, Barney red said:

Can't believe the amount of players we have accumulated. We have experienced players not even making the bench,so many on loan and for the future that I can't even remember half of them. Anyone know how many we actually have? 

Don't really see how we can expect to develop a style of play when we're coaching  so many players.

We need to make judgments on these players not in starting teams and move them on if there not going to play. It's no wonder we lose money when you look at the amount of players and management staff we have.

Personally would scrap the under 23 and just have u 18. If we want to keep them at 19 then send them on loan. It seems like we want to sign everyone just in case they come through when the reality is they don't.

Our record for developing players is poor to say the least, how many of yesterday's team were signed from elsewhere?

Scrapping the under 23s would be mental. Surprised you say our youth development is poor.  A lot of examples over the last 2-3 years to counter act that argument 

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26 minutes ago, Barney red said:

Can't believe the amount of players we have accumulated. We have experienced players not even making the bench,so many on loan and for the future that I can't even remember half of them. Anyone know how many we actually have? 

Don't really see how we can expect to develop a style of play when we're coaching  so many players.

We need to make judgments on these players not in starting teams and move them on if there not going to play. It's no wonder we lose money when you look at the amount of players and management staff we have.

Personally would scrap the under 23 and just have u 18. If we want to keep them at 19 then send them on loan. It seems like we want to sign everyone just in case they come through when the reality is they don't.

Our record for developing players is poor to say the least, how many of yesterday's team were signed from elsewhere?

Most of the U23 team is made up of U18’s and first team squad players in need of games.

A lot of our best U23’s are already on loan, which was one reason why the manager left, he was having to play players who he wasn’t directly coaching, both young and old.

Take a look at the team line ups for previous U23 games on the official site.

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I must say, I agree to the extent that the annual clamour for January transfers fills me with dread - as barring the Afobe injury, we have recruited sufficient cover in every position, and if results don't go our way, the response can't always simply be to "buy more players", you need to fix the underlying problems. Buy more players has far too often been LJ's get out. It was fair enough when it wasn't his team (and didn't he remind us of that) but it has been his team several times over now, he can't keep "finding out about the players" and needing new ones.

Some of this is actually just in the minds of supporters. When we're playing badly and LJ is tinkering without success, the size and quality of the City squad is always rubbished and the sheer number of people we have does feel like a very depressing weight round our neck. Oddly when we're doing well amid injuries (like our unbeaten run earlier this season), that same squad size feels just right for sustaining a challenge, and we talk about the strongest squad the club has ever assembled (a lot of us said it in late August/September, as did Johnson).

I have a feeling LJ is going throw a few pieces up in the air again and see how they land, which was unthinkable given we did the same in August already. It's quite strange that Leeds spanked us at AG and provided an abject lesson in the gap between us and promotion material, and we responded in that transfer window by shipping out Pack and Paterson and making big changes that seemed to get us playing. Here we are at the start of the next transfer window and Brentford have just done the same to us and off we go again to overhaul the squad.

THAT more than a run of bad results is probably why I'd err towards a serious review of LJ's role (experienced help or leave by mutual consent) if I ran the club - you can't keep assembling a squad, failing to get the best out of it, and re-visiting the transfer market again for yet more alternatives as a convenient sidescreen for the annual collapse of confidence and direction in your management of the players you have already brought in. Sometimes you have to get more out of what you already have and it wouldn't be the first time SL has taken that view.

I have no insight but knowing SL's reticence at January transfers and spending silly/unplanned money, I have a hunch his patience may be wearing thin on this too. 

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It didn’t seem too many, when we had 7/8 players unavailable earlier in the season..!

It’s a squad game, more than ever before. 
Under 23’s are the potential future. Not meant to be first team squad ready. Yet. 
 

I never understand why people are bothered about number of players on the books. It really only effect the Wage budget that SL covers anyway. 
 

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5 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

It didn’t seem too many, when we had 7/8 players unavailable earlier in the season..!

It’s a squad game, more than ever before. 
Under 23’s are the potential future. Not meant to be first team squad ready. Yet. 
 

I never understand why people are bothered about number of players on the books. It really only effect the Wage budget that SL covers anyway. 
 

How do our squad numbers match up against other clubs pulling in similar revenue ? Genuine not a trick question btw as I have no idea.

Our squad appears bloated with "unwantables" and they all contribue to some extent towards FFP which we are regularly told is a major issue for the club to work within.

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3 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

How do our squad numbers match up against other clubs pulling in similar revenue ? Genuine not a trick question btw as I have no idea.

Our squad appears bloated with "unwantables" and they all contribue to some extent towards FFP which we are regularly told is a major issue for the club to work within.

No idea. Would be an interesting comparison. 

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4 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

How do our squad numbers match up against other clubs pulling in similar revenue ? Genuine not a trick question btw as I have no idea.

Our squad appears bloated with "unwantables" and they all contribue to some extent towards FFP which we are regularly told is a major issue for the club to work within.

I know just the man... introducing statto... @Mr Popodopolous

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I'd rather City invested in Brentford's recruitment team than add a lot more players to an already bloated squad this January.  Brebtford seem to have the same philosophy of recruiting talented, athletic young players with potential and giving opportunities and a pathway but they do it so much better than us and with far less money thrown around.  

Of course we have seen some lip service paid to Steve Lansdown's desire to see up and coming young players developed, recruited and given opportunities but running through the team I  don't see Jack Hunt, Kallas, Williams, Korey smith, Watkins, Famara, Rowe and Weimann as examples of that recruitment approach.  If we are going to finish mid-table then I'd rather see the likes of Cameron Pring and Joe Morrell involved in the first team squad and recruitment of the type of player Brentford go for.   

As well as a new recruitment team it would need a head coach who is best suited to implementing that philosophy and I'm not sure LJ really is.

 

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Looking at the back of yesterday’s programme, our squad appeared to be of a similar size as Brentford. What I don’t know is how many teams have as many young players out on loan as us, who don’t currently appear in our squad numbers.

You would suggest a squad of around 25 is about right, given that a manager needs a couple of players for each position, plus one or two others, such as a third goalkeeper. From there, we should be aiming for a style of play and try to get players that fit into the positions that formation requires.

I am not clear that is what we have been doing and I would worry that we try to buy good young players because we think we can make a profit from them without necessarily thinking through how they fit into a system that we can coach. And that comes back to the issue of do we have a way that we want to play? I would suggest that is the role of the coach/manager, which for many appears to be the root of the problem.

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29 minutes ago, headhunter said:

Said it many times before, we would be better off having 10 £25k per week players than 20 on £12.5k  which is where we are now. 

Clubs in the bag & all that - ****ocks!

 

Can see what you mean but who do you fill the squad with? 

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  • Admin

For those asking

Positions based on 4-4-2
Likely or Best Position
GK (3)
1.Nikki.Mäenpää

2.Daniel Bentley

3.Rene Gilmartin

----------------------------------------------
RB (2)
4.Jack Hunt

5.Pedro Perriera
---------------------------------------------
LB (2)

6.Tommy Rowe

7.Jay DaSilva
-----------------------------------------------
RCB (3)
8.Taylor Moore

9.Bailey Wright

10.Ashley Williams
------------------------------------------------
LCB (2)
11.Nathan Baker

12.Tomas Kalas
-----------------------------------------------
CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (4)
13.Korey Smith

14.Adam Nagy

15.Josh Brownhill

16. Han-Noah Messengo

--------------------------------------------
ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (5)
17.Callum O'Dowda

18.Niclas Elliason

19.Hakeeb Adelukun

20.Sammie Szmodics

21.Kasey Palmer

22.Jamie Paterson
--------------------------------------------
TARGET MAN (1)
23.Famara Diedhiou
.................................................................
STRIKER (4)

24.Marley Watkins

25.Andreas Weissman

26.Antoine Semenyo

27.Rodri

Total 27

 

Loaned Out 9

  • Morrell,
  • Pring,
  • Vyner,
  • Cundy
  • Taylor
  • Jenneh
  • Walsh
  • O'Leary
  • Woolacott (9)

 

Injured 2

  • Afobe
  • Baker
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3 hours ago, Barney red said:

Can't believe the amount of players we have accumulated. We have experienced players not even making the bench,so many on loan and for the future that I can't even remember half of them. Anyone know how many we actually have? 

Don't really see how we can expect to develop a style of play when we're coaching  so many players.

We need to make judgments on these players not in starting teams and move them on if there not going to play. It's no wonder we lose money when you look at the amount of players and management staff we have.

Personally would scrap the under 23 and just have u 18. If we want to keep them at 19 then send them on loan. It seems like we want to sign everyone just in case they come through when the reality is they don't.

Our record for developing players is poor to say the least, how many of yesterday's team were signed from elsewhere?

Second half of that statement is ridiculous. Have you not seen the players we’ve sold to the prem over the past few years? They wouldn’t be there if they were poorly developed 

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4 minutes ago, phantom said:

For those asking

Positions based on 4-4-2
Likely or Best Position
GK (3)
1.Nikki.Mäenpää

2.Daniel Bentley

3.Rene Gilmartin

----------------------------------------------
RB (2)
4.Jack Hunt

5.Pedro Perriera
---------------------------------------------
LB (2)

6.Tommy Rowe

7.Jay DaSilva
-----------------------------------------------
RCB (3)
8.Taylor Moore

9.Bailey Wright

10.Ashley Williams
------------------------------------------------
LCB (2)
11.Nathan Baker

12.Tomas Kalas
-----------------------------------------------
CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (4)
13.Korey Smith

14.Adam Nagy

15.Josh Brownhill

16. Han-Noah Massengo

--------------------------------------------
ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (5)
17.Callum O'Dowda

18.Niclas Elliason

19.Hakeeb Adelukun

20.Sammie Szmodics

21.Kasey Palmer

22.Jamie Paterson
--------------------------------------------
TARGET MAN (1)
23.Famara Diedhiou
.................................................................
STRIKER (4)

24.Marley Watkins

25.Andreas Weissman

26.Antoine Semenyo

27.Rodri

Total 27

 

Loaned Out 9

  • Morrell,
  • Pring,
  • Vyner,
  • Cundy
  • Taylor
  • Jenneh
  • Walsh
  • O'Leary
  • Woolacott (9)

 

Injured 2

  • Afobe
  • Baker

Looks about right to me for a full championship season. We could do with cutting down on those attacking midfielders - but clearly the club see this too given Paterson's loan and the rumours about Szmodics. Perhaps we could trim one of the centre backs but when you account for a injuries and suspensions over the season maybe again it's about right.

 

3 hours ago, Barney red said:

Can't believe the amount of players we have accumulated. We have experienced players not even making the bench,so many on loan and for the future that I can't even remember half of them. Anyone know how many we actually have? 

Don't really see how we can expect to develop a style of play when we're coaching  so many players.

We need to make judgments on these players not in starting teams and move them on if there not going to play. It's no wonder we lose money when you look at the amount of players and management staff we have.

Personally would scrap the under 23 and just have u 18. If we want to keep them at 19 then send them on loan. It seems like we want to sign everyone just in case they come through when the reality is they don't.

Our record for developing players is poor to say the least, how many of yesterday's team were signed from elsewhere?

The point about under 23s is silly - our youth development is going well and is something that takes a few years to show it's worth anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

It didn’t seem too many, when we had 7/8 players unavailable earlier in the season..!

But that’s when you supplement the bench with youngsters, you can only play 3 subs, 4 subs never get beyond the bench.  We never got to a point where we were naming Bakinson on the bench, so even with injuries we had bloat....and that’s with Pato and Taylor (1st team squad members) out on loan.

It’s a squad game, more than ever before.

it is indeed, but not 30+


Under 23’s are the potential future. Not meant to be first team squad ready. Yet. 

But they can gain experience being around first team / bench when needed.
 

I never understand why people are bothered about number of players on the books. It really only effect the Wage budget that SL covers anyway.

it costs of £30m in wages and another circa £11m in amortised contracts.  It is a effin millstone around the club’s neck, stifles recruitment, whilst enforcing the need to sell our best players to balance the books.  Our starting position is a £25m loss each season.  Trimming the wage bill by £5m and say amortised costs by £3m as a result would make a huge difference.  Remember SL can only cover £13m losses per annum.  “Clubs in the bag” will be LJ’s downfall.
 

 

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35 minutes ago, phantom said:

For those asking

Positions based on 4-4-2
Likely or Best Position
GK (3)
1.Nikki.Mäenpää

2.Daniel Bentley

3.Rene Gilmartin

----------------------------------------------
RB (2)
4.Jack Hunt

5.Pedro Perriera
---------------------------------------------
LB (2)

6.Tommy Rowe

7.Jay DaSilva
-----------------------------------------------
RCB (3)
8.Taylor Moore

9.Bailey Wright

10.Ashley Williams
------------------------------------------------
LCB (2)
11.Nathan Baker

12.Tomas Kalas
-----------------------------------------------
CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (4)
13.Korey Smith

14.Adam Nagy

15.Josh Brownhill

16. Han-Noah Massengo

--------------------------------------------
ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (5)
17.Callum O'Dowda

18.Niclas Elliason

19.Hakeeb Adelukun

20.Sammie Szmodics

21.Kasey Palmer

22.Jamie Paterson
--------------------------------------------
TARGET MAN (1)
23.Famara Diedhiou
.................................................................
STRIKER (4)

24.Marley Watkins

25.Andreas Weissman

26.Antoine Semenyo

27.Rodri

Total 27

 

Loaned Out 9

  • Morrell,
  • Pring,
  • Vyner,
  • Cundy
  • Taylor
  • Jenneh
  • Walsh
  • O'Leary
  • Woolacott (9)

 

Injured 2

  • Afobe
  • Baker

Isn't Jonny Smith out on loan ?

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Maybe we need to look at Brentford? Yes they spent as much as we did in pre-season but on 60% of our crowds they will be paying less wages than us overall (the maths says they have to) due to the fact they have less players. Quality over quantity.

Of our many players out on loan a few might make it at Championship level and the rest won’t. Stocking up our squad with players who aren’t quite good enough isn’t helping our first team who also appear to be not quite good enough right now.

Get rid of half a dozen plus and bring in say three of quality and perhaps the first team will benefit. As others have said we had plenty of players say on their backsides with no chance of first team action even when we had the early season glut of injuries.

While we are a selling club, something fans have to accept, we seem to be taking too many punts on players at the expense of the first team squad (Walsh, Bakinson, Jonny Smith, Adelakun, Holden to name a few off the top of my head). Brentford as an example seem to have a better balance than us.

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1 hour ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Second half of that statement is ridiculous. Have you not seen the players we’ve sold to the prem over the past few years? They wouldn’t be there if they were poorly developed 

Webster was bought, Reid, Bryan and Kelly came through the Academy from Day 1. O’Dowda, Walsh, Smith, Adelakun, Bakinson etc. are no nearer Premiership players now than the day we got them in from other clubs. Perhaps shows where the right balance lies?

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I have never understood the number of under 23 players we have out on loan, and the fact that Brian Tinnion

is the "loan arranger" which to me appears to be an administrative function rather than a coaching function.

Surely we would get far more success with these youngsters if Brian was actually coaching them rather

than arranging and monitoring them actually playing for someone else.  I understand they are getting game time

but we are not really controlling it.  This in my opinion was why we lost David Williams to MK Dons, who i

believe to be a really good coach of younger players. i wonder where the pathway is for these youngsters?

At the moment it just seems like if Lee wants to bring another player in to the squad we just go out and buy

or loan one in.

 

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3 hours ago, Olé said:

I must say, I agree to the extent that the annual clamour for January transfers fills me with dread - as barring the Afobe injury, we have recruited sufficient cover in every position, and if results don't go our way, the response can't always simply be to "buy more players", you need to fix the underlying problems. Buy more players has far too often been LJ's get out. It was fair enough when it wasn't his team (and didn't he remind us of that) but it has been his team several times over now, he can't keep "finding out about the players" and needing new ones.

Some of this is actually just in the minds of supporters. When we're playing badly and LJ is tinkering without success, the size and quality of the City squad is always rubbished and the sheer number of people we have does feel like a very depressing weight round our neck. Oddly when we're doing well amid injuries (like our unbeaten run earlier this season), that same squad size feels just right for sustaining a challenge, and we talk about the strongest squad the club has ever assembled (a lot of us said it in late August/September, as did Johnson).

I have a feeling LJ is going throw a few pieces up in the air again and see how they land, which was unthinkable given we did the same in August already. It's quite strange that Leeds spanked us at AG and provided an abject lesson in the gap between us and promotion material, and we responded in that transfer window by shipping out Pack and Paterson and making big changes that seemed to get us playing. Here we are at the start of the next transfer window and Brentford have just done the same to us and off we go again to overhaul the squad.

THAT more than a run of bad results is probably why I'd err towards a serious review of LJ's role (experienced help or leave by mutual consent) if I ran the club - you can't keep assembling a squad, failing to get the best out of it, and re-visiting the transfer market again for yet more alternatives as a convenient sidescreen for the annual collapse of confidence and direction in your management of the players you have already brought in. Sometimes you have to get more out of what you already have and it wouldn't be the first time SL has taken that view.

I have no insight but knowing SL's reticence at January transfers and spending silly/unplanned money, I have a hunch his patience may be wearing thin on this too. 

I agree with this but what I really don't get is how we seem at times to have a huge squad of players and yet an absolute dearth of options. We've a shortage of quality strikers, no recognised left-back for several months, (although, to be fair, Rowe did a great job filling in), had to sign a centre-back on a free to make up the squad numbers and, for the last two games, have had no creative/game changing players on the bench. And yet, at the same time, the squad feels big.

I do agree a lot of it is finding out about the players we have. Eliasson looks good but struggles to start, Palmer has been dropped after a few games, Szmodics appears to be Messi in training and a mess in games, Adelakun has never had a look in, Bakison has been highly rated but nowhere near the squad. We should at the very least, somewhere within our nine or so attacking midfielders, have the players to have better options on the bench and change things up. On paper we have at least four strong central midfielders but never seem to dominate games.

I accept Afobe's injury was unforeseen and we need a striker and I have no problem with another forward coming too as I think we were after two in the Summer and we would be light if Rodri went and Semenyo isn't ready (as he appears not to be) but I do think any need for signings beyond that is an admission of a failure of transfer policy rather than a sensible strategy. 

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It’s interesting when you look at our squad. I’m not suggesting the club is going to hell in a handcart and, after all, we are still within spitting distance of 6th place atm, but there are some bizarre goings on.....

Palmer, Szmodics, Paterson - three decent wages there, only one can ever be in the starting XI at any given time realistically.

Six pro Goalkeepers signed on.

Ten central midfield players if you count O’Dowda on the basis Johnson picks him there.

Given the above we only have two forwards at the club that will ever get a start realistically as the rest aren’t good enough (whether that be yet in the case of Semenyo or at all in the case of others), even allowing for the Afobe injury it’s daft.

You have to question how much planning goes into recruitment and, assuming it does, why are we so ready and willing to go off plan?

The words child, sweet and shop spring to mind!!! I can accept the club taking £0.25-1.5m punts on players from time to time but we do not appear to be doing it in a balanced way.

It does make the argument that LJ’s January budget needs to be severely limited for the long term good of the club a strong one (unless he can ship out half a dozen plus of the dead wood at a reasonable price permanently).

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11 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

what I really don't get is how we seem at times to have a huge squad of players and yet an absolute dearth of options

Because we have far too many squad players that LJ obviously and repeatedly shows a complete lack of faith in playing, so the rest of us cease to view them as credible options.

As an example last season Mo Eisa ceased to be considered even a choice for attack such was his lack of involvement. Yet we wanted a striker in January and recalled Semenyo.

Adelakun, Szmodics, Bakinson, Walsh, Morrell. The list is endless. Watkins hasn't often got more than 2 straight games, Palmer cost £3.5m and looks like LJ is done with him too.

We're told Johnson is a training ground coach who relishes in developing players and he has done for some, but he seems to write off far more players than he turns into regulars.

His lack of trust in his own resources paints a picture of a coach that's far more insecure than the security of his role implies. His ego detests being undermined by young players.

If it wasn't for injuries I doubt Taylor Moore would have featured heavily or got a new contract, as he's also been in that group of signings that Johnson bombs out - and still does!

For so many to be outside the circle of trust an easy view is they're all filler and recruitment is to blame. But the list is too long not to wonder if they're mismanaged & moth-balled.

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27 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s interesting when you look at our squad. I’m not suggesting the club is going to hell in a handcart and, after all, we are still within spitting distance of 6th place atm, but there are some bizarre goings on.....

Palmer, Szmodics, Paterson - three decent wages there, only one can ever be in the starting XI at any given time realistically.

Six pro Goalkeepers signed on.

Ten central midfield players if you count O’Dowda on the basis Johnson picks him there.

Given the above we only have two forwards at the club that will ever get a start realistically as the rest aren’t good enough (whether that be yet in the case of Semenyo or at all in the case of others), even allowing for the Afobe injury it’s daft.

You have to question how much planning goes into recruitment and, assuming it does, why are we so ready and willing to go off plan?

The words child, sweet and shop spring to mind!!! I can accept the club taking £0.25-1.5m punts on players from time to time but we do not appear to be doing it in a balanced way.

It does make the argument that LJ’s January budget needs to be severely limited for the long term good of the club a strong one (unless he can ship out half a dozen plus of the dead wood at a reasonable price permanently).

Any shipped out permanently will be for "undisclosed fees" i'm sure.

As you say nothing wrong with the odd punt but it must be focussed and doesn't currently appear to be so.

I would give LJ a jackshit budget be told to look at the loan market, and justify your own cost.

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