Der no.2 Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Way too many players. Whether you have 36 tools in the box or 26 its all about how they are used. A Tradesman doesn’t blame his tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Welcome to the wonderful world of Mark Ashton’s recruitment. Basically, throw enough excrement at a wall and hope some of it will stick. Ashton has operated an incredibly scatter-gun approach to his transfer dealings and I’m astonished that many fans are not bringing this into question (all the fault seems to be at LJ’s feet, but Ashton is the man who’s signing these players). Ashton has presided over 7 transfer windows to date. He’s brought in 46 permanent signings (65 of you include loans). He’s got rid of 36 players. He’s got rid of 15 of the players which he himself brought in - half of which left to become unemployed as no other club wanted them)! That’s 33% of the players which Ashton has signed, have been moved on. In 7 windows! That’s a pretty shocking turnover of playing staff. He’s averaging 9 players incoming per transfer window. What is there to show for it so far except for a bloated squad no further forward than £50m ago! For what it’s worth, LJ needs to do better. But let’s be a little bit fair on him - he’s seen his best players sold every year and replaced with multiple new ones under no strategy who are worse than we’ve let go. Ashton needs to be the one held to account here. Despite an astounding turnover of players and regularly losing his best ones, LJ has managed to improve our position year on year. This year may put an end to that but he’s working miracles based on what Ashton is giving him. Welcome to Ashton Recruitment. We’ll throw some excrement at the wall and hope some of it sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Der no.2 said: Way too many players. Whether you have 36 tools in the box or 26 its all about how they are used. A Tradesman doesn’t blame his tools. Depends whether a Carpenter is using carpentry tools or plumbing tools!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 41 minutes ago, Harry said: Welcome to the wonderful world of Mark Ashton’s recruitment. Basically, throw enough excrement at a wall and hope some of it will stick. Ashton has operated an incredibly scatter-gun approach to his transfer dealings and I’m astonished that many fans are not bringing this into question (all the fault seems to be at LJ’s feet, but Ashton is the man who’s signing these players). Ashton has presided over 7 transfer windows to date. He’s brought in 46 permanent signings (65 of you include loans). He’s got rid of 36 players. He’s got rid of 15 of the players which he himself brought in - half of which left to become unemployed as no other club wanted them)! That’s 33% of the players which Ashton has signed, have been moved on. In 7 windows! That’s a pretty shocking turnover of playing staff. He’s averaging 9 players incoming per transfer window. What is there to show for it so far except for a bloated squad no further forward than £50m ago! For what it’s worth, LJ needs to do better. But let’s be a little bit fair on him - he’s seen his best players sold every year and replaced with multiple new ones under no strategy who are worse than we’ve let go. Ashton needs to be the one held to account here. Despite an astounding turnover of players and regularly losing his best ones, LJ has managed to improve our position year on year. This year may put an end to that but he’s working miracles based on what Ashton is giving him. Welcome to Ashton Recruitment. We’ll throw some excrement at the wall and hope some of it sticks. So Ashton identifies the players ? I thought Johnson picked those to be signed once Ashton produced a shortlist based upon the criteria defined by the head coach. Could be wrong of course. If it is as you say then Ashton is to be credited with the profits achieved from players being moved on then not the head coach ? I wonder if either of them would pick up comparable roles at another championship club with a billionaire owner and a stated ambition of reaching the Premier league. Doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honiton Tony Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 We should get in one decent striker in on loan until the end of the season and if we cant make the playoffs then time for a new manager ...........more than reasonable i would say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 48 minutes ago, Natchfever said: So Ashton identifies the players ? I thought Johnson picked those to be signed once Ashton produced a shortlist based upon the criteria defined by the head coach. Could be wrong of course. If it is as you say then Ashton is to be credited with the profits achieved from players being moved on then not the head coach ? I wonder if either of them would pick up comparable roles at another championship club with a billionaire owner and a stated ambition of reaching the Premier league. Doubt it. Yep, Ashton gets credit for the profits on any players. He buys them. He sells them. So far though, of his 15 players that he’s bought and subsequently sold, only Webster has produced a profit. A good one admittedly, but it’s quite a poor record. Only 1 player making profit on the 15 he’s bought and sold to date. 7 of his ‘bought and solds’ weren’t even good enough to find another club immediately! Yes, LJ has a say in transfers but as far as I understand it, it’s very much a Director or Football style set-up. LJ says “I need a centre back”, Ashton then goes away and finds one. It won’t be LJ identifying the player himself. Think of it as akin to Jose at Man U. Jose said to his DOF, I need a CB, they went away and gave him one, but it was not necessarily the one that Jose wanted, but he has to make do. Difference is, Jose was outspoken about this whereas LJ has not thrown MA under a bus but has quietly got on with his job with no complaints. Recruitment is wholly MA’s responsibility. It falls on his head and he’s the one who should be scrutinised on it, not LJ. And as far as I’m concerned, to date, he’s got a lot to prove. It just feels to me that his strategy is scatter-gun, buy enough players and a couple of them are bound to work out. There doesn’t seem to be a plan. I think this is why we’ve not developed an “identity” as it’s called. 2 years ago our identity was high press, high tempo. We sold Reid who was crucial to that and didn’t replace him, meaning a change of identity was required. Last year we played a possession based, slower build up, through which Pack was the integral part. He was sold and not replaced like for like, meaning a change of identity again. It’s my opinion that MA is just buying players and hoping LJ can fit them in. He’s not recruiting to the “identity” that LJ desires. There’s been much talk of Brentford - they recruit to fit a system. We don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Harry said: Yep, Ashton gets credit for the profits on any players. He buys them. He sells them. So far though, of his 15 players that he’s bought and subsequently sold, only Webster has produced a profit. A good one admittedly, but it’s quite a poor record. Only 1 player making profit on the 15 he’s bought and sold to date. 7 of his ‘bought and solds’ weren’t even good enough to find another club immediately! Yes, LJ has a say in transfers but as far as I understand it, it’s very much a Director or Football style set-up. LJ says “I need a centre back”, Ashton then goes away and finds one. It won’t be LJ identifying the player himself. Think of it as akin to Jose at Man U. Jose said to his DOF, I need a CB, they went away and gave him one, but it was not necessarily the one that Jose wanted, but he has to make do. Difference is, Jose was outspoken about this whereas LJ has not thrown MA under a bus but has quietly got on with his job with no complaints. Recruitment is wholly MA’s responsibility. It falls on his head and he’s the one who should be scrutinised on it, not LJ. And as far as I’m concerned, to date, he’s got a lot to prove. It just feels to me that his strategy is scatter-gun, buy enough players and a couple of them are bound to work out. There doesn’t seem to be a plan. I think this is why we’ve not developed an “identity” as it’s called. 2 years ago our identity was high press, high tempo. We sold Reid who was crucial to that and didn’t replace him, meaning a change of identity was required. Last year we played a possession based, slower build up, through which Pack was the integral part. He was sold and not replaced like for like, meaning a change of identity again. It’s my opinion that MA is just buying players and hoping LJ can fit them in. He’s not recruiting to the “identity” that LJ desires. There’s been much talk of Brentford - they recruit to fit a system. We don’t. Sounds like a crock of shit Harry - the arrangment at the club not your post ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der no.2 Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Numero Uno said: Depends whether a Carpenter is using carpentry tools or plumbing tools!!! True. Just don’t employ anyone who doesn’t know the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 5 hours ago, phantom said: For those asking Positions based on 4-4-2 Likely or Best Position GK (3) 1.Nikki.Mäenpää 2.Daniel Bentley 3.Rene Gilmartin ---------------------------------------------- RB (2) 4.Jack Hunt 5.Pedro Perriera --------------------------------------------- LB (2) 6.Tommy Rowe 7.Jay DaSilva ----------------------------------------------- RCB (3) 8.Taylor Moore 9.Bailey Wright 10.Ashley Williams ------------------------------------------------ LCB (2) 11.Nathan Baker 12.Tomas Kalas ----------------------------------------------- CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (4) 13.Korey Smith 14.Adam Nagy 15.Josh Brownhill 16. Han-Noah Massengo -------------------------------------------- ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (5) 17.Callum O'Dowda 18.Niclas Elliason 19.Hakeeb Adelukun 20.Sammie Szmodics 21.Kasey Palmer 22.Jamie Paterson -------------------------------------------- TARGET MAN (1) 23.Famara Diedhiou ................................................................. STRIKER (4) 24.Marley Watkins 25.Andreas Weissman 26.Antoine Semenyo 27.Rodri Total 27 Loaned Out 9 Morrell, Pring, Vyner, Cundy Taylor Jenneh Walsh O'Leary Woolacott (9) Injured 2 Afobe Baker Add to the loan players this lot playing National League or above.... lemonheigh-evans - Torquay Morton - FGR Holden - Walsall Smith - Oldham I may have missed some but that 13 on loan - hard to see how any will make it here or turn a decent transfer profit. Morrell might be the exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Barney red said: Can't believe the amount of players we have accumulated. We have experienced players not even making the bench,so many on loan and for the future that I can't even remember half of them. Anyone know how many we actually have? Don't really see how we can expect to develop a style of play when we're coaching so many players. We need to make judgments on these players not in starting teams and move them on if there not going to play. It's no wonder we lose money when you look at the amount of players and management staff we have. Personally would scrap the under 23 and just have u 18. If we want to keep them at 19 then send them on loan. It seems like we want to sign everyone just in case they come through when the reality is they don't. Our record for developing players is poor to say the least, how many of yesterday's team were signed from elsewhere? Instead of using six formations so far this season have players focussing on one. Its popular elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatalist Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 hours ago, phantom said: For those asking Positions based on 4-4-2 Likely or Best Position GK (3) 1.Nikki.Mäenpää 2.Daniel Bentley 3.Rene Gilmartin ---------------------------------------------- RB (2) 4.Jack Hunt 5.Pedro Perriera --------------------------------------------- LB (2) 6.Tommy Rowe 7.Jay DaSilva ----------------------------------------------- RCB (3) 8.Taylor Moore 9.Bailey Wright 10.Ashley Williams ------------------------------------------------ LCB (2) 11.Nathan Baker 12.Tomas Kalas ----------------------------------------------- CENTRE & HOLDING MIDFIELD (4) 13.Korey Smith 14.Adam Nagy 15.Josh Brownhill 16. Han-Noah Massengo -------------------------------------------- ATTACKING MIDFIELD/WING (5) 17.Callum O'Dowda 18.Niclas Elliason 19.Hakeeb Adelukun 20.Sammie Szmodics 21.Kasey Palmer 22.Jamie Paterson -------------------------------------------- TARGET MAN (1) 23.Famara Diedhiou ................................................................. STRIKER (4) 24.Marley Watkins 25.Andreas Weissman 26.Antoine Semenyo 27.Rodri Total 27 Loaned Out 9 Morrell, Pring, Vyner, Cundy Taylor Jenneh Walsh O'Leary Woolacott (9) Injured 2 Afobe Baker Don't know how up to date it is, but Brentford's OS shows 29 players, not counting ones out on loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcnick Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 19 minutes ago, Harry said: Yep, Ashton gets credit for the profits on any players. He buys them. He sells them. So far though, of his 15 players that he’s bought and subsequently sold, only Webster has produced a profit. A good one admittedly, but it’s quite a poor record. Only 1 player making profit on the 15 he’s bought and sold to date. 7 of his ‘bought and solds’ weren’t even good enough to find another club immediately! Yes, LJ has a say in transfers but as far as I understand it, it’s very much a Director or Football style set-up. LJ says “I need a centre back”, Ashton then goes away and finds one. It won’t be LJ identifying the player himself. I agree there have been too many poor purchases and it looks a bit scatter gun as opposed to the structured and inspired way Brentford go about their business. To balance things though, the likes of Brownhill, Taylor Moore, Bentley (before the bad run at least), Dasilva, Famara, and Massengo probably have quite enhanced values. I also think a profit (far too little due to being injured and having limited opportunty) was scraped on Mo Eisa as well as the Webster millions. Probably the most valuable player with massively enhanced value is Niclas Elliason - but only if he is tied down to another contract. I'm not sure he'll extend his contract for a team where, regardless of the quality of his performances, he is likely to feature irregularly in the starting line-up. I'm not so sure LJ is as isolated from the signing process as suggested though as the likes of Marley Watkins, Brownhill are players he has worked with previously and, for example, he was out in Portugal pre-season looking at potential players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roe Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 We've had way too many players for ages and yet continue to bring another boatload in every summer. This season we've got 24 players that have played over 100 mins so far. Look how that compares with the rest of the top half. We're basically carrying 3 more "first team" players than everyone else. League Position Team Players with 100+ mins 1 Leeds 18 2 West Brom 18 3 Brentford 19 4 Nottingham Forest 21 5 Fulham 21 6 Millwall 18 7 Sheffield Wednesday 21 8 Hull 20 9 Preston 22 10 Swansea 21 11 Bristol City 24 12 Cardiff 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 25 minutes ago, Mendip City said: I may have missed some Problem is we've so many I don't think even the club can recall who and where they are? Where's Opi Edwards for example (or did we let him go?) Recall his debut in the cup with Lemon-Drizzle Cake at Watford. Neither could have done anything more and he, in particular, looked a useful player. His reward , farmed off to obscurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shtanley Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 15 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Problem is we've so many I don't think even the club can recall who and where they are? Where's Opi Edwards for example (or did we let him go?) Recall his debut in the cup with Lemon-Drizzle Cake at Watford. Neither could have done anything more and he, in particular, looked a useful player. His reward , farmed off to obscurity. At Torquay and injured. His younger brother at bath one to watch out for but also injured. none of our youth academy players will get a sniff with the state of our current squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFABM Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 47 minutes ago, Mendip City said: Add to the loan players this lot playing National League or above.... lemonheigh-evans - Torquay Morton - FGR Holden - Walsall Smith - Oldham I may have missed some but that 13 on loan - hard to see how any will make it here or turn a decent transfer profit. Morrell might be the exception. When Bobby Reid was out on loan did you expect him to ever make us the money he did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoons Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 I completely disagree with the idea of bringing back max O'Leary from his loan at Shrewsbury to warm our bench as the homegrown player in replacement for semenyo who's off on loan. He's kept 10 clean sheets in 22 games and established himself as there no.1, why we think it's going to help him bringing him back I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 59 minutes ago, Shtanley said: At Torquay and injured. His younger brother at bath one to watch out for but also injured. none of our youth academy players will get a sniff with the state of our current squad. Spot the missing players.... Freddie Hinds. Is he still around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 58 minutes ago, GTFABM said: When Bobby Reid was out on loan did you expect him to ever make us the money he did? Well what I do remember is Bobby Reid ripping up trees and getting rave reviews at Plymouth. Other than Morrell who’s getting that sort of review? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mendip City said: Spot the missing players.... Freddie Hinds. Is he still around? On loan to Wrexham (??) I believe but merely proves the point many are making. We have so many players that we are even forgetting some that are contracted to the club until 2021!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoons Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Mendip City said: Well what I do remember is Bobby Reid ripping up trees and getting rave reviews at Plymouth. Other than Morrell who’s getting that sort of review? Max O'Leary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 8 hours ago, bcfcnick said: I'd rather City invested in Brentford's recruitment team than add a lot more players to an already bloated squad this January. Brebtford seem to have the same philosophy of recruiting talented, athletic young players with potential and giving opportunities and a pathway but they do it so much better than us and with far less money thrown around. Of course we have seen some lip service paid to Steve Lansdown's desire to see up and coming young players developed, recruited and given opportunities but running through the team I don't see Jack Hunt, Kallas, Williams, Korey smith, Watkins, Famara, Rowe and Weimann as examples of that recruitment approach. If we are going to finish mid-table then I'd rather see the likes of Cameron Pring and Joe Morrell involved in the first team squad and recruitment of the type of player Brentford go for. As well as a new recruitment team it would need a head coach who is best suited to implementing that philosophy and I'm not sure LJ really is. The philosophy of how they want to play drives their recruitment and players they sign and that comes from the top. Sell maupay, sign a replacement in the same mould . Philosophy doesn’t change. What is our philosophy , can anyone enlighten me ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Spoons said: Max O'Leary True and to be honest a braver club might have let him be out first choice this year..... will he ever be..? doubt it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mendip City said: True and to be honest a braver club might have let him be out first choice this year..... will he ever be..? doubt it! You can only assume that the “plan” (give the club the benefit of the doubt) is for Max to be challenging Bentley next season with Maenpaa thanked for his services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Of the fifteen or so players out on loan how many will make it for us? Three or four tops? How many of those players were punts rather than coming through our Academy system? @Harry ‘s summation of the Mark Ashton philosophy doesn’t seem far fetched at all when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Bar BS3 said: It didn’t seem too many, when we had 7/8 players unavailable earlier in the season..! It’s a squad game, more than ever before. Under 23’s are the potential future. Not meant to be first team squad ready. Yet. I never understand why people are bothered about number of players on the books. It really only effect the Wage budget that SL covers anyway. I guess then that is a question for LJ as he said last week he has to big a squad and needs to get players out. Therefore if LJ is worried I guess we should be too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: On loan to Wrexham (??) I believe but merely proves the point many are making. We have so many players that we are even forgetting some that are contracted to the club until 2021!! Anyone got a clue how many players we actually have? I’m up to 45 first team squad plus players on loan at National League or higher. Obviously there are plenty of others at U18 or on loan at lower levers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Harry said: Welcome to the wonderful world of Mark Ashton’s recruitment. Basically, throw enough excrement at a wall and hope some of it will stick. Ashton has operated an incredibly scatter-gun approach to his transfer dealings and I’m astonished that many fans are not bringing this into question (all the fault seems to be at LJ’s feet, but Ashton is the man who’s signing these players). Ashton has presided over 7 transfer windows to date. He’s brought in 46 permanent signings (65 of you include loans). He’s got rid of 36 players. He’s got rid of 15 of the players which he himself brought in - half of which left to become unemployed as no other club wanted them)! That’s 33% of the players which Ashton has signed, have been moved on. In 7 windows! That’s a pretty shocking turnover of playing staff. He’s averaging 9 players incoming per transfer window. What is there to show for it so far except for a bloated squad no further forward than £50m ago! For what it’s worth, LJ needs to do better. But let’s be a little bit fair on him - he’s seen his best players sold every year and replaced with multiple new ones under no strategy who are worse than we’ve let go. Ashton needs to be the one held to account here. Despite an astounding turnover of players and regularly losing his best ones, LJ has managed to improve our position year on year. This year may put an end to that but he’s working miracles based on what Ashton is giving him. Welcome to Ashton Recruitment. We’ll throw some excrement at the wall and hope some of it sticks. Harry. Same conversation I’ve had with our mutual friend. At what point then does LJ say “it’s me or him” to SL if he truly is being undermined in recruitment matters? Bollocks to “nobody quits in this game”, if your principled enough, feel you’re being undermined, etc., you put your ”cock on the block” and force the issue! If you’re confident enough in your ability you either expect SL to fall on your side or you back yourself to get a job elsewhere. I’ve been there in a far worse position financially than LJ, giving up 28 years service over principles when I though I’d never leave without a redundancy cheque with no job to go to because I couldn’t work there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 We are combining internal development with a close to open check book for players and wages. We are now close to critical mass when it comes to players. None of whom is currently in form! With the exception of Elliason who is normally sub or subbed. Smell the Coveffe as Trump would say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 21 minutes ago, Mendip City said: Anyone got a clue how many players we actually have? I’m up to 45 first team squad plus players on loan at National League or higher. Obviously there are plenty of others at U18 or on loan at lower levers. There are first year pro’s such as Vince Harper at Weston Super Mare not included in anyone’s calculations . If you literally counted every single “pro” would we be that far off 60 players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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