Post story - LJ and Palmer conflict means Nketiah could go elsewhere

[WhistleHappy]

47 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

There are plenty of reporters renowned for their integrity, I don't think we can have have any reason to assume that GMG is anything less that full of it! 

He's just tweeted that he'd given LJ the chance to reply and that his piece is 'fair and balanced'. The question is where did he get the story from?

Bob Woodford/Carl Bernstein ring any bells?  

...that particular Water and gate has long since gone under the bridge..

...but could we be witnessing early news reporting of our own scandal  'Johnsongate ' ?   

[italian dave]

42 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Have you ever met KP or seen him interviewed?

How can you judge how a player ‘comes across’ If you haven’t........

Plus.....players, like managers have a public persona.
 

Have you? And is that what you base your judgement of him as "disruptive" and having a "crap attitude" on?

[Olé]

57 minutes ago, petehinton said:

can't believe you've ghosted me on the Gregor osib front, i was there too mate 

Sorry! I forgot who else was on. It was an excellent episode and I think gave a very good impression of Gregor which is at odds with the idea he's doing this speculatively or sensationally. I know it's traditional to treat EP journalists as amateurish but I got the impression from your conversation that he understood what the line was between him and LJ (having been told off before), I would be amazed from his tone and thoughtfulness if he crossed that line unless he thought it was a really important and reliable point he is making today.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Olé said:

Here we go again.

Can people stop stating as "fact" and "reality" that Palmer has done nothing since Afobe got injured. It's an easy line for people with hazy memories but isn't actually true.

He went up to Preston without Afobe and ran midfield, they couldn't get him off the ball, he ran at them repeatedly, 2-3 times about 30 yard upfield runs bundling midfielders off the ball, he crafted a number of chances, we were 3-0 up at half time and if not for the ref he would have been man of the match as he was still picking passes in the second half in front of the away end.

Since then as substitute he also has the vision for a pass no one else in the club could produce to win the game versus Charlton, and came off the bench in Cardiff, had a role in our winner there too, and to my eyes was our best outlet to relieve pressure at 1-0 ahead away from home, he looked very comfortable bringing the ball out, the Cardiff fans found him most irritating.

His first average game this season was away at Brentford - a place we are routinely outplayed - I say average not bad because he had several shots and setup other chances in a team that did nothing for 85 minutes, so hardly the worst player. His first bad game was at Luton away, somewhere literally the entire team didn't turn up, but as playmaker Palmer is easy to pick on.

He's had two starts since then, at home to Wigan, and West Brom away. He didn't get in the game versus Wigan but no one covered themselves in glory, and he was awful for his one half at West Brom but he had literally one player ahead of him, the rest of the team hid in a disorganised rabble of 7 or 8 crowded around our box. Funny how it's only Palmer that "hasn't delivered". 

He's had 20 minutes here and there as sub since then, Wednesday was the worst because he was trying to get on the ball and do something rather than keeping it simple and yes he looked terrible. But in my experience when asked for examples of Palmer being rubbish its West Brom and Wednesday that people cite, which is hardly indicative of his form with a run in the team. 

He's a visionary midfielder not superman. He needs confidence and he's not getting any in and out of the team. Sadly the manager has previous with this. He's happy to talk up players like Watkins or Moore or Eliasson or O'Dowda when they do well, but how often does he bomb these players out for weeks on end as he "doesn't trust them" (translation: they're his scapegoats).

I don't disagree that Palmer has lost his way but I hate the sweeping generalisations that he's a) had a terrible season or b) done nothing since Afobe was injured, as neither is true. Helpfully it looks like Kasey is now posting videos of his best moments on Instagram, which is the least disguised "come and get me" plea I've ever seen and a sad indictment of our man-management.

2 up at HT. IIRC. Pretty sure we were never 3 up in the game. In fact just checked it was 2-1 HT, with Preston's first penalty just before.

Certainly the ref played a strong role in us not winning that. 

Agree on your overall point though- he's not been anonymous post Afobe.

[pongo88]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

The whole KP scenario screams of a crap attitude and a disruptive influence along with failure to stick to the team’s instructions............No manager will want to keep a disruptive player around the squad.

Good riddance I say.

It begs the question of why he was signed. He was here on loan for half a season which should have been sufficient for LJ to make a balanced decision. Previously  he was on loan at Blackburn and wasn’t a regular starter. Tony Mowbray, who is a very experienced manager, said that Palmer was talented, but he (Mowbray) used to tear his hair out at some of the stupid things he did on the pitch. 

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

Well as LJ is head coach that is usually how it works. Head coach is given players and up to him to make it work. MA is doing his job. Kasey Palmer at the price is almost a no brainer. One good season his price triples at his age and with his CV. 

Another question to consider. Who makes the final decision on signing players?  LJ says it’s him  but, in reality, how much influence has he got? It’s true that his price would go up after a good season, though not necessarily by a factor of three. However, how much will City get if he’s sold after a very poor season? I’d guess it will be less than the price paid, plus salary etc must be factored in 

[petehinton]

6 minutes ago, Olé said:

Sorry! I forgot who else was on. It was an excellent episode and I think gave a very good impression of Gregor which is at odds with the idea he's doing this speculatively or sensationally. I know it's traditional to treat EP journalists as amateurish but I got the impression from your conversation that he understood what the line was between him and LJ (having been told off before), I would be amazed from his tone and thoughtfulness if he crossed that line unless he thought it was a really important and reliable point he is making today.

Haha i only jest, but totally agree. Totally changed my perspective on him and the Post tbh.

[Kibs]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

Ask yourself this...do you seriously think you can play Eliasson and Palmer in the same 11? Seriously... You can't. 

 

I know right. 2 attack minded midfielders in the same team would be absolutely fricken MENTAL!!!!

[Olé]

59 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

He’s never come across like that at all. Take your LJ blinkers off. He’s got the same trait as his old man , who you didn’t like. He can’t handle egos . 

Isn't the real issue with GJ/LJ their own egos? I'm not sure KP has any ego to handle - he certainly doesn't come across like that on social media, the opposite, he comes across as quite a positive-thinking, humble, family man who needs to be trusted. If ever there was an area I think LJ struggles its his own ego - and far more than GJ ever did.

It's the one consistent thread in his tenure that has always worried me and I think massively affects his man-management. I've seen it all the time in business: I see LJ as an insecure leader with a giant brooding ego. That's not me being nasty to him, many great leaders have had exactly the same traits and how they deal with it defines their success.

Sadly I don't think LJ deals with it very well. I get the impression he takes things very personally if the team don't execute and is immediately consumed by how he can distance himself from the blame and punish those he believes have let him down. This is why he scapegoats/dumps players rather than standing square behind them as one team.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Has anyone actually read the article? https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/exclusive-swansea-city-step-up-3701283

I wonder how many words Gregor actually had to change from the copy he was given by Palmer's agent 

Complete PR stunt.

So this reporter is a top guy, does his research, has contacts?

Shame he isn’t aware the players entrance is no longer in the Atyeo, tells you all you need to know about him.

Has now said an official approach has been made, that is either true and has come from the agent, or is BS, we shall see.

Seems to me he is jumping on the LJ out brigades bandwagon, be careful what you wish for.

[Northern Red]

20 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Has anyone actually read the article? https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/exclusive-swansea-city-step-up-3701283

I wonder how many words Gregor actually had to change from the copy he was given by Palmer's agent 

Complete PR stunt.

Absolutely it is.

However, given that Gregor and LJ seem to have a decent working relationship, you have to wonder why Gregor would feel suitably empowered to publish, knowing what the likely reaction from LJ will be.

[mozo]

29 minutes ago, Kibs said:

He also said he gave Lee Johnson the opportunity to comment/respond. I’m assuming the opportunity was rejected.

 

I'm sure Johnson did respond but that it wasn't suitable for print!

15 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Has anyone actually read the article? https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/exclusive-swansea-city-step-up-3701283

I wonder how many words Gregor actually had to change from the copy he was given by Palmer's agent 

Complete PR stunt.

Hang on though, if this came from Palmers agent, what part are you saying is not factually correct?

That Palmer is frustrated with lack of gametime? Presume this is why the agent would feed the story?

That Palmer is frustrated with LJ? Dangerous message to spread if not true?

That Palmers knows Nketiah or they share mates? 

That Palmer would be honest with any of his mates in football about his frustrations?

That Nketiah would ask a friend for a reference before signing for a club?

IF this came from an agent, that doesn't make it less true does it?

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Mendip City said:

All true and.....

Building a massive squad

constant shuffling the team

selling players, buying players who are no better

clubs in the bag 

falling out with players
 

it’s just like the last days of GJ

 

Except Dad saved his punch ups for the dressing room, not pitchside and in the tunnel! 

[Prinny]

This is a clever move from the Palmer camp.

LJ can't really deny it as there's obviously a problem.

If he confirms it, it looks like bad man management.

As his PR adviser I would get some "sources" to "leak" details any and all of the negative incidents Kasey has been involved in.

Fans need to wise up about agents and their games.

[Banjo Red]

Johnson needs ******* off upsetting players poor tactics etc sounds like his old man.

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Have you? And is that what you base your judgement of him as "disruptive" and having a "crap attitude" on?

I draw my judgment from comments made by LJ post matches about players not pulling their weight - an obvious reference to KP  and if LJ is dissatisfied with any players effort or failure to their jobs then get left out. 
Now we read that KP has a problem with LJ........... Only one winner there.......

[Prinny]

Also if it's true this is an Ashton signing more so than LJs, then it actually strengthens LJs position inside the club. 

[mozo]

14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!!

Look at Palmer's career in the Championship as well....

Huddersfield = spent more time on the bench than starts, couldn't break into the team

Derby = spent more time on the bench than starts, couldn't break into the team

Blackburn = spent more time on the bench than starts, couldn't break into the team

Bristol City = spent more time on the bench than starts, couldn't break into the team

Why the hell did Ashton sign him after we saw his obvious limitations on loan? Bonkers.

Kid, it seems to me that Ashton often signs player based on resale potential (Palmer, Massengo) or bargain factor (Szmodics, Rowe), when they aren't actually what LJ needs.

We should sign players that fit our system and provide something we are lacking, but after what looked like a successful window closed, we have a really imbalanced squad.

For example, I think Massengo is an exciting player with huge potential. But we needed a tough centre mid enforcer, and already have Nagy and Smith. Rowe has been Milneresque since arriving, but we didn't need him in the midfield, so just buy a ruddy left back, or keep Pring in the squad!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Psychopomp said:

That anyone could be surprised at the inability of LJ to manage players is the greatest shock. The list of disgruntled players is long and has been going on since he arrived . Currently it is huge problem, and there are many issues behind the scenes. His treatment of certain players has , again, caused unrest. He has very limited credibility with the current squad.  Expect more chaos as he unloads players and asks to sign even more. 

Even SL must be starting to question the direction. He is loyal, and supportive, but far far from stupid. We have to trust SL.

Maybe if a suitable replacement could be identified, that has a higher level experience and a clear footballing vision, it would be an easier decision to make. 

I do wonder about this- have for a while.

One of my long nagging worries is that he struggles to manage those who have come a) With a bit of experience to experienced and b) Are from a higher level than he was as a player. That combination of the two is a problem I think!

I can't put my finger on it, it could be tactical, man management or both but my fear is that he cannot get the best out of them.

Others say it's man management- may well be- either way, players he seems to sign from a higher level WITH a bit of experience, he often hasn't got the best out of. Tammy didn't fit that category in one respect...this was his first senior season.

The churn  is alarming- I remember mentioning it about 3 seasons ago- it seemed to settle down a bit but the overall churn...well it's crazy. I know the modern game has less continuity but it seems OTT.

Smacks a bit of "I want that one!" "No that one" "That toy in the window". "No, that one".

Also worth noting that quite a few players either from a higher level, or a more experienced one, seem to regress over time...started off looking pretty solid in a few cases and then...downwards!

Cannot build a team, a cohesive unit if you keep changing, changing...and changing some more at this rate. Cannot get the sum of the parts- let alone more than this- with such a rate of change!

[SedRA]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

On a more serious note, whether it’s Palmer or not something isn’t right. We’re over halfway through the season and the coach doesn’t appear to know his best team or formation, and that can’t be right. We know that LJ historically does well with a small squad (or with few players available) and he’s almost forced into a consistent eleven/formation. When he’s got resources, he tinkers and changes, seemingly unnecessarily so and at random and results go downhill.

My guess is that there’s truth in some players being upset. Not necessarily being out of the side (that happens), but in the complete inconsistency of approach on a player by player and team by team basis. Players know who should/shouldn’t be in the side and when the decisions make little sense they’re bound to lose faith.

This tallies with him being a good coach (ie he can drill and improve a small consistent group), but struggling with man management as is the common theory. He’s trying to please everyone (most people) and is pleasing nobody.

He overthinks EVERYTHING due to insecurity.

He hasn’t found his own identity, no surprise his team doesn’t have one. 

[Simon bristol]

12 minutes ago, Prinny said:

This is a clever move from the Palmer camp.

LJ can't really deny it as there's obviously a problem.

If he confirms it, it looks like bad man management.

As his PR adviser I would get some "sources" to "leak" details any and all of the negative incidents Kasey has been involved in.

Fans need to wise up about agents and their games.

Im sure palmers agent wouldnt encourage Palmer to move where he would stand to receive a fat wedge of commission to broker it? Agents would never do that!

 

[Red Exile]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

Kinnel.... we've got some right bed wetters on here.

Has anyone actually read that article?

Talks about unrest...talks about LJ having problems with Palmer's interests outside football...says Palmer unhappy and there is interest from other Clubs for him, says about friendship with Nketiah and that they will speak about life here...making out it could effect him coming here...with a question mark, then says discussions with him would all be positive.

What a pile of crap article...click bait and Agent driven imo.

 

 

'right bed wetters'? come on...

Of course it's clickbait and probably (almost certainly!), as @Kid in the Riot observes, at source a PR stunt. 'Fair and balanced' is how GMG's described it - and he'd given LJ the right to reply. That said if I was on the end of it I'd feel it was below the belt.

Which poses the question why does GMG feel he can publish it without consequence? 

[Major Isewater]

13 minutes ago, Prinny said:

This is a clever move from the Palmer camp.

LJ can't really deny it as there's obviously a problem.

If he confirms it, it looks like bad man management.

As his PR adviser I would get some "sources" to "leak" details any and all of the negative incidents Kasey has been involved in.

Fans need to wise up about agents and their games.

I personally don’t give a monkey’s cuss about agents or their games . 
 

What I do give a damn about is a rare talented attacking midfielder being shoved out the door when we are crying out for creativity in the team.

That screams of mismanagement. Firstly, the player was not an unknown quantity having been here on loan , also not used enough during that period . 
 

Secondly, LJ’s comments about having a full preseason with him shouldn’t have meant that signing him excluded the coaching that they wished to get into him.

I am sure many of us have seen his faults , he needs to know when and where to turn his man to avoid losing the ball in a dangerous area , he needs to defend better ie , not launch himself into the opponent instead of jockeying into a safer zone.

However the lad is still only young and will make mistakes. I thought a coach’s job was to improve players . KP has gone backwards under our coaching staff. 

[chipdawg]

So now if Nketiah doesn't sign, everyone will say it's because LJ didn't do the best job managing Palmer. Of course LJ hasn't been great managing Palmer, but there are absolutely no guarantees at this stage that Nketiah is coming here. I'm far from satisfied with LJ at this stage, but this is pure speculation (the article doesn't quote any source regarding Palmer's interactions with Nketiah, just guessed at what they might be talking about) and I can already hear the mouth-frothing meltdowns if EN doesn't sign for us

[Olé]

18 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I draw my judgment from comments made by LJ post matches about players not pulling their weight - an obvious reference to KP

Yesterday you said you knew with certainty about Cotterill's sacking before Steve Cotterill. Now you know all LJ's comments are obviously about KP.

I don't mind speculation but for someone who specifically spends time here complaining about other peoples baseless speculation, it's a little weird.

Perhaps you should change your official fact-checking rules to a) on the official site  - OR -  b) if @Robbored and only Robbored has figured it all out.

[Red-Robbo]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

It was weird that we ended up with Paterson, Szmodics and Palmer. Complete overkill in one position and suggestion of poor planning by somebody.

They all have totally different roles:

Palmer gets the ball then loses it; Pato gets the ball, runs sideways then passes it back; Szmodics doesn't get the ball in the first place.

[sh1t_ref_again]

Love all the assumptions and sudden ITK's using sound bites to back their viewpoint, truth is we only see a tiny snapshot of what happens during a week within a football club and have little or no knowledge of how situations are managed. By the very nature players are young with ego's and lots of money, so probably the most difficult to keep in check and happy if its not going well.

When you read the story it does have a bit of agent spin about it, 

"relationship between Palmer and Lee Johnson has continued to nosedive and the former Chelsea player is not opposed to leaving Ashton Gate if the head coach continues to give him the cold shoulder treatment and does not believe in him"

"Palmer feels singled out and that Johnson has been unjustified and has reacted out of proportion to several match performances of late, with several disagreements between the pair over Palmer's life outside of football too"

You only have to look on the forum to see want the fans thought of Kaseys (and CODs) recent performances to see why they are not in the team, so perhaps KP does not take criticism well or feels its OTT, plus an issue with out of club activity?

Would be gutted to see KP leave as he was the player most excited about seeing and with a mobile forward could be what we need

[Oh Louie louie]

I agree with what another chatter said, bad apple get rid off.

The soundbites, him, his, agent, gregor or whoever are making about nketiah coming here, wont help anyone.

He wasnt intrested 6 months ago, and he isnt now..

Ive just read hes got 3 goals in 17 games for leeds..

Are we missing anything?

[italian dave]

20 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I draw my judgment from comments made by LJ post matches about players not pulling their weight - an obvious reference to KP  and if LJ is dissatisfied with any players effort or failure to their jobs then get left out. 
Now we read that KP has a problem with LJ........... Only one winner there.......

I'm still unclear how those comments translate as disruptive and bad attitude.

RR, I'm far closer to your take on the current situation at the club than I am to the Johnson out brigade. But that doesn't make me blind to potential shortcomings.

KP has never struck me as being remotely difficult or disruptive, a la Tomlin. He took to heart the criticism last season of his fitness and work rate, and both improved massively this season. If anything he tries too hard at times. 

Of course there's only one winner, but that's still not good for the club long term if a) other players privately resent how KP has been treated or b) fear they'll, be next.

And it does appear pretty random. The single most unprofessional display I've seen from anyone this season was Williams on Wednesday. I've not yet heard a word of criticism of that, and fully expect he'll start at Wigan.

As others have said already, man management wasn't his Dad's forte, and it certainly doesn't seem to be Lee's. And ultimately that was his Dad's downfall at City

[RedRock]

20 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Also if it's true this is an Ashton signing more so than LJs, then it actually strengthens LJs position inside the club. 

Lummydaze.

We can’t have a CEO signing players he wants and a Manager doing likewise. My suspicions that we have a twin-track transfer policy are being realised. That is why this news is so important. 

Pretty clear to me now why we have a bloated squad with no identity, seemingly random team selections/formations. May also explain the CoD re-signing although if MA thought he was going to make a quick profit on that one then he’s deluded imo. 

 

What would be quite interesting would be a comparison of MA vs LJ signings and value added. My money would be on Cotts acquisitions trumping the lot. 

 

Think this may be revealing issues within the Club that are more significant than just a manager in/out. 

 

[Selred]

2 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Ive just read hes got 3 goals in 17 games for leeds..

 

A lot were sub appearances. 

133 min per goal.

In contrast Weimann is 252 min per goal.