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Post story - LJ and Palmer conflict means Nketiah could go elsewhere


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2 hours ago, NickJ said:

For reasons only you will know mate, by selectively reproducing extracts, and even inventing words that were not said, you have put a very different spin on the article than is the reality.

Take for example:

The relationship has had its ups and downs but is certainly still “salvageable”. 

It actually says: Bristol Live understands that the relationship between Palmer and Johnson is still salvageable but is fast deteriorating and that an exit is now a real possibility,

and before that:

Bristol Live understands that the relationship between Palmer and Lee Johnson has continued to nosedive and the former Chelsea player is not opposed to leaving Ashton Gate if the head coach continues to give him the cold shoulder treatment and does not believe in him.

As for whether or not Johnson can manage creative players, I have my doubts as to his man management per se. The Aaron Wilbrahim podcast was very insightful, in which he says Tomlin is not a bad lad, just a bit of a joker but he never did anything really bad and always trained well. I didn't hear anything at all in that interview to suggest that Tomlin had created any issues. 

Wilbrahim - who clearly had loads of respect for Cotterill but not so much for Johnson - also referred to disputes with Johnson over trivial issues, interesting when you refer back to another quote from the EP article:

Bristol Live understands that Palmer feels singled out and that Johnson has been unjustified and has reacted out of proportion to several match performances of late, with several disagreements between the pair over Palmer's life outside of football too. Often concerning trivial matters.

Yet again a player who was a crowd favourite, an entertainer, and seen as the talisman in a potential promotion push , feels marginalised and unfairly singled out for criticism. At some point you have to ask questions of the manager.

Hi Nick. 
Yep, most of the previous 4 pages of posts focussed on the negatives - rather sensationally. 
So I agree that I have extracted only the elements I wanted to focus on. 
Ultimately, the article says that KP gave EN positive feedback - so quite why the urge for most people to jump to “KP told EN not to come here” I don’t know.

As for Wilbs - the story he gave was very much that he had a lot of admiration for Cotterill after he’d brought him in off the heap. Of course when a new manager comes in he’ll have different ideas on such an ageing striker. Wilbs himself even went on to say that whilst he and LJ didn’t see eye to eye he still understood where he was coming from. There’s nothing in Wilbs story to say that LJ can’t handle certain players. Tomlin is a dick. Always had been a dick and always will be a dick. I put zero blame on LJ for Tomlin being a dick. 
 

Please don’t feel that I am defending LJ here. I have some questions over his ability to take us forward just as much as many others, but I think we ought to keep the debate fair and rational. KP is upset because he’s not playing regularly and his manager has called him out on it to improve. This happens all the time in football. It doesn’t mean the manager is unable to handle big players, it means that big players are unable to accept responsibility for their own actions. 
Plenty of examples of even high profile managers who struggle with player power. It’s not just LJ. 

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23 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Liverpool's 'boot room' worked because they were replacing retiring managers who had been successful with experienced, mature coaches steeped in the way Liverpool played, and wanted to continue playing.

They were also all mature individuals, outstanding football men respected by all the players, and natural leaders.

At City it would be a floundering sacked manager replaced by a novice having left no identifiable style of play to carry on - a recipe for stagnation and unrest, at best.

If SL feels he has built a 'boot room' that can ever deliver anything but mediocrity I'm afraid he's in cloud cuckoo land.

I fear you are right though and if LJ departs the job will fall to Mcallister, no doubt with the likes of Carey and Skuse being installed behind the scenes as further managers in waiting.

 

Came to a juddering halt with Souness though!

Dunno if he was the last of, but 'boot room' possibly not ideal for us at this time.

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5 minutes ago, Harry said:

As for Wilbs - the story he gave was very much that he had a lot of admiration for Cotterill after he’d brought him in off the heap. Of course when a new manager comes in he’ll have different ideas on such an ageing striker. Wilbs himself even went on to say that whilst he and LJ didn’t see eye to eye he still understood where he was coming from. There’s nothing in Wilbs story to say that LJ can’t handle certain players. Tomlin is a dick. Always had been a dick and always will be a dick. I put zero blame on LJ for Tomlin being a dick. 

Think you're right on Wilbraham. He was very complementary of Cotterill, but compared to Parkinson and Keith Hill, LJ's review was fairly positive.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Came to a juddering halt with Souness though!

Dunno if he was the last of, but 'boot room' possibly not ideal for us at this time.

I think the owner sees something that works structurally elsewhere and then tries it out here, but with the wrong people.

If he wants to go head coach then he needs better people above and around that coach, or a better head coach. The current personnel are not fit for purpose in my opinion.

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21 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Which is the reason he endlessly uses phrases that either don't make grammatical sense, or he doesn't understand himself. 

He thinks he is more than he is. 

There is absolutely no doubt about that - he thinks he is too clever by half.

That clearly comes across in the all too frequent 'smugness'. This is going to take some explaining however, we buy a player, who was on loan, for £3m+ then punt him out a few months later......

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when that gets explained to SL.....

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6 hours ago, scrumpy88 said:

Hasn’t even given Palmer a good run in the team since he signed him. Why sign him in the first place if he’s not going to give him a chance. Palmer and Eliasson are the only 2 players in the squad that can make things happen, yet are the 2 who struggle to get game time. Whilst others who underperform week after week and just walk in.

Yet more piss poor man management from 

Nothing to see here its all a load of codswallop according to jamie mac

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5 minutes ago, Harry said:

Hi Nick. 
Yep, most of the previous 4 pages of posts focussed on the negatives - rather sensationally. 
So I agree that I have extracted only the elements I wanted to focus on. 
Ultimately, the article says that KP gave EN positive feedback - so quite why the urge for most people to jump to “KP told EN not to come here” I don’t know.

As for Wilbs - the story he gave was very much that he had a lot of admiration for Cotterill after he’d brought him in off the heap. Of course when a new manager comes in he’ll have different ideas on such an ageing striker. Wilbs himself even went on to say that whilst he and LJ didn’t see eye to eye he still understood where he was coming from. There’s nothing in Wilbs story to say that LJ can’t handle certain players. Tomlin is a dick. Always had been a dick and always will be a dick. I put zero blame on LJ for Tomlin being a dick. 
 

Please don’t feel that I am defending LJ here. I have some questions over his ability to take us forward just as much as many others, but I think we ought to keep the debate fair and rational. KP is upset because he’s not playing regularly and his manager has called him out on it to improve. This happens all the time in football. It doesn’t mean the manager is unable to handle big players, it means that big players are unable to accept responsibility for their own actions. 
Plenty of examples of even high profile managers who struggle with player power. It’s not just LJ. 

Happy New Year mate.

Interestingly, the article doesn't say that KP gave EN positive feedback. It says

Alas, the timing is not good but the references are still all positive. However will Kasey Palmer now be in BS3 should Nketiah arrive?

Not being pedantic, I think that is significant, I think the author of the article wanted to conclude positively but couldn't honestly say that KP had given positive references about Johnson, hence just the vague "the references are still all positive"

which could just mean positive about the club if not the manager.

Wilbraham - who incidentally wasn't necessarily taken in by Cotterill off the heap as he was also speaking with Coventry and Birmingham at the time - described Tomlin as a clown and a joker, with some affection. Wilbs told the story of Tomlin over indulging in the cake shop and asking his team mates to send pictures back to the manager, who had criticised Tomlin over his body fat mass. Some might find that the behaviour of a dick, I find it amusing, life and football shouldn't be treated seriously all the time. Never met the guy, but on that description, think I'd like him. 

And lets face it Johnson had Tomlin on loan before buying him so he should have known all about him, after all doesn't Johnson pride himself on identifying players having the right DNA?

The fact remains with Johnson that he has reportedly struggled with man management and relationships with many players. This isn't about player power, its a consistent trend of reports of players being unhappy with their treatment by the manager. I cant think of any other manager where that has been the case.

I just honestly don't think he has the persona or authority to be taken seriously as a manager, never have.

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8 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Happy New Year mate.

Interestingly, the article doesn't say that KP gave EN positive feedback. It says

Alas, the timing is not good but the references are still all positive. However will Kasey Palmer now be in BS3 should Nketiah arrive?

Not being pedantic, I think that is significant, I think the author of the article wanted to conclude positively but couldn't honestly say that KP had given positive references about Johnson, hence just the vague "the references are still all positive"

which could just mean positive about the club if not the manager.

Wilbraham - who incidentally wasn't necessarily taken in by Cotterill off the heap as he was also speaking with Coventry and Birmingham at the time - described Tomlin as a clown and a joker, with some affection. Wilbs told the story of Tomlin over indulging in the cake shop and asking his team mates to send pictures back to the manager, who had criticised Tomlin over his body fat mass. Some might find that the behaviour of a dick, I find it amusing, life and football shouldn't be treated seriously all the time. Never met the guy, but on that description, think I'd like him. 

And lets face it Johnson had Tomlin on loan before buying him so he should have known all about him, after all doesn't Johnson pride himself on identifying players having the right DNA?

The fact remains with Johnson that he has reportedly struggled with man management and relationships with many players. This isn't about player power, its a consistent trend of reports of players being unhappy with their treatment by the manager. I cant think of any other manager where that has been the case.

I just honestly don't think he has the persona or authority to be taken seriously as a manager, never have.

Happy New Year to you too mate - hope you and the family are all well. 
 

As you quoted, the article says “the references are still all positive”. 
The only thing I read into that is that anything KP has said to EN has been positive. Not sure how that can be construed any other way? 
 

As for Tomlin - indeed, I’m sure we’d all get on with him and find him a roaring character. But is that behaviour ok in the workplace? As a professional athlete, if you show up overweight and your boss asks you to trim yourself up and you subsequently get fatter and send pics of you eating cake, that’s rather unprofessional and you can fully expect to be in the managers bad books. Wilbs acknowledged that in the interview. He knew LT was being intentionally obtuse. End of the day, supremely talented player, but there’s a reason he always gets dropped and moved on. He’s enjoying a purple patch under Harris now, it won’t last long. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Happy New Year to you too mate - hope you and the family are all well. 
 

As you quoted, the article says “the references are still all positive”. 
The only thing I read into that is that anything KP has said to EN has been positive. Not sure how that can be construed any other way? 
 

As for Tomlin - indeed, I’m sure we’d all get on with him and find him a roaring character. But is that behaviour ok in the workplace? As a professional athlete, if you show up overweight and your boss asks you to trim yourself up and you subsequently get fatter and send pics of you eating cake, that’s rather unprofessional and you can fully expect to be in the managers bad books. Wilbs acknowledged that in the interview. He knew LT was being intentionally obtuse. End of the day, supremely talented player, but there’s a reason he always gets dropped and moved on. He’s enjoying a purple patch under Harris now, it won’t last long. 

Absolutely this.  I manage a team and I'd find it funny if outside of work my mates did it, but, if one of my team that I managed send me something like that when I'd asked them not to, that is pure disrespect.  So I see how Wilbs found it funny, but I can also see how LJ would get pissed. 

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26 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Wilbraham - who incidentally wasn't necessarily taken in by Cotterill off the heap as he was also speaking with Coventry and Birmingham at the time - described Tomlin as a clown and a joker, with some affection. Wilbs told the story of Tomlin over indulging in the cake shop and asking his team mates to send pictures back to the manager, who had criticised Tomlin over his body fat mass. Some might find that the behaviour of a dick, I find it amusing, life and football shouldn't be treated seriously all the time. Never met the guy, but on that description, think I'd like him. 

If you were paying me very handsomely, certainly more than my colleagues, to be in my best physical condition and I sent you pictures of myself eating cake and essentially sticking two fingers up to you, would you think it's time not to take life too seriously and that it's top bants?

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9 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Absolutely this.  I manage a team and I'd find it funny if outside of work my mates did it, but, if one of my team that I managed send me something like that when I'd asked them not to, that is pure disrespect.  So I see how Wilbs found it funny, but I can also see how LJ would get pissed. 

Massively disagree.

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3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

From the presser:

 

FCB2ABD1-B4F6-429E-8DD3-BE1FB8D7B369.png

 

2 minutes ago, kivsy said:

He would say that !!

Time will tell over the next few weeks

See him start tomorrow or see him line up for Swansea  . . .

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1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I bet, although you remain resolute in not giving away any juicy details! Respect.

But based on the information you've provided - this conversation occurred after GJ was sacked, on a train travelling back from London - I will attempt some amateur sleuthing/wild speculation:

GJ was sacked on 18 March 2010 - we'll assume the conversation occurred between that date and the end of that season.

Let's also assume the train was travelling to Bristol after an away game.

The only away game in that period that would have required a train journey via London was Peterborough. The squad that day was:

Gerken, Carey,  Ribeiro, Fontaine, Orr, Campbell-Ryce, Elliott, Hartley, Skuse, Haynes, Maynard. Subs - Henderson, Sawyer, Johnson, Sno, Clarkson, Sproule, Maierhofer

Some assumptions in there which could be wide of the mark, but I can imagine one or two of the above behaving as you've described.

Hot or cold?

A propos of nothing at all, Tommy Rowe was playing for Peterborough.

haha...top quality sleuthing...all I'll say is that it wasn't Maierhofer!

At the time I felt so embarrassed for the football club that two players should be being so indiscreet...and I still feel embarrassed for them!

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43 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Absolutely this.  I manage a team and I'd find it funny if outside of work my mates did it, but, if one of my team that I managed send me something like that when I'd asked them not to, that is pure disrespect.  So I see how Wilbs found it funny, but I can also see how LJ would get pissed. 

It is challenging behaviour to be fair.

If he'd done that privately, then LJ should have sucked it up as a harmless joke, but whilst with other squad members it does undermine the head coach's position of authority.

Hindsight is wonderful,.but it appeared to be piss poor due dilligence by whoever does that sort of thing at the club, checking out the right DNA etc.

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1 hour ago, Highguy said:

I disagree with you LJ has threw palmer under the bus on more then 1 time this season already hes one of our most talented players yet cant get in the squad, noone has previously said palmer has bad attidude and hasnt shown any since him time here, LJ has been picking teams with players he trusts as he lost the changing room look at charlton and brentford games you dont perform like that if your behind the gaffer luton we wasnt that good just got made look better by poor luton team alot of stories seem to be of him and players argueing plus hes never been able to handle a big fish in small pond type player, 

Firstly, Palmer is far from a big fish in a small pond! A career so far compiled of numerous loan spells!

Secondly, I never mentioned Palmer’s attitude. I just said we are yet to see a half decent performance from him. His pass vs Charlton at home showed what he can do but one moment is all we have seen of him.

This also isn’t the first time he has found himself in this position. The reason we took him on loan last season was that he found himself frozen out at Blackburn. Guess that was their managers fault as well then? Before Blackburn he only featured occasionally for Huddersfield, 28 games over two seasons. Manager’s fault??

LJ obviously thought he could get the best out of him but he isn’t the first manager to try and fail. That doesn’t mean LJ is in the wrong and doesn’t mean Nketiah wouldn’t join us for this reason! 

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4 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If it was two from that list I’d be amazed if one of them wasn’t Carey!

Haha! My last word on the subject, and out of fairness as he's got named as the source of another story elsewhere at another time, no, it wasn't Louis Carey.

I wish I'd never started this...😅

But that's enough. It was a long time ago.

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33 minutes ago, RonWalker said:

If you were paying me very handsomely, certainly more than my colleagues, to be in my best physical condition and I sent you pictures of myself eating cake and essentially sticking two fingers up to you, would you think it's time not to take life too seriously and that it's top bants?

 

@Harry too:

I'd say it was an example of one of those trivial things that Wilbrahim mentioned.

He sent a picture eating cake, big deal.

Too many people with a sense of humour bypass.

Top managers would probably have a laugh about it with the player, if it was a joke meant in the right spirit.

The important thing is not silly pictures which in reality probably helped to build team spirit among the players, but how the player in question performs when he actually gets on the pitch.

As I said before, Johnson was able to try Tomlin out for 3 months before buying, he should have known exactly what he was getting - however you look at it, if Johnson didn't like the player, he only had himself to blame for buying him.

 

Same with Palmer. Johnson had him for half a season, on the strength of that buys him for 2 or 3 million and then decides he doesn't fit into the squad never mind the starting 11. Bizarre.

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