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Taylor Moore...


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1 minute ago, phantom said:

Great character by TM but I do wonder why a player would go to the manager and ask to be captain? 

Don't we have a captain/ vice captain? 

We do - Bailey Wright but he’s currently out of favour and not in the matchday squad - and the team needs a captain.

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I see potential but I feel he's massively over hyped on here. People are acting like he's Adam Webster 2.0 and he's waaay off IMO. Don't get me wrong, not writing him off, i like him the person, i like his desire to get better, his seeming professionalism. I have zero intention to get rid of him. Taylor Moore is what's right with our model and what's wrong with it. You have a young player with all the intangibles who's out there getting better but making mistakes. This will help us long term but hurts us short term. However, right now...

There's so many really bad things he does. Today is no exception. There's a moment in the first five or so minutes where he gets out muscled and turned when he awkwardly tries to nick the ball from behind their player. There's two decisions which work. Stay behind and let them get it under control, or clatter through them and give a foul. He delicately wafts a leg at it, and ends up off balance before being turned.

Then there's his attempts to bring the ball out.. Adam Webster he is not. There were a couple of really bad ones today. I like that he tries. But especially on his left foot, it's inconsistent to say the least. It looks awkward. Like he's doing the thing we all know he needs to do, and yet even he doesn't believe he should be doing it. There's the very obvious concentration lapses and he's not the type to really put his head in where it hurts. Then there's getting burned by their 11 for pace. Kalas did too.

Which leaves me wondering, what type of player is he exactly? Jack of all trades centre back. Ok Physically, Ok technically, Ok mentally. So he's Ok. And Ok isn't good enough for where we want to be. He needs to get better, he seems to want to get better which is great. But his decision making and concentration is inconsistent.

What is Taylor Moore GREAT at? Let's use a Johnsonism. What's his USP? Character? Professionalism?

He's definitely hurt playing left side in a two. We've seen that a few times now and it's looked awkward each time. Also Kalas is not helping him with distribution because he's been awful since returning from injury IMO. And left central defender is the number two priority to sort out because we're kinda stuck with Kalas. Who has to be injured right? I mean generally, not just at the end of the game. Just looks off the pace.

I think a lot of fans like him the person. They like the story about the contract. They seem to be eating up the story about the captaincy. You don't need an armband to be a leader, it's a prop. It's a crutch. You can't fake being the leader. I don't know about following someone who is like "please sir, can i be the leader sir?". It comes across as very school boyish to me. He's replaced Joe Bryan as the nicest of the nice boys we have in our team. I don't really want that in a central defender. I don't think a collection of nice lads is a successful route. I don't know the dressing room dynamic, maybe it's fine and everyone loves that. I think it's an odd thing to do.

He's 22, he's played 100 games. It's his first full season in the championship and because he's smart I'm sure he's learning lessons. But on the job training in a promotion push is leading to some bad film. I think him playing alongside Baker will be interesting. Baker doesn't communicate well IMO, but is that physical beast who's technically limited. They both get to play in their natural sides and if Moore is as good as people think, he'll shine. If he is a good communicator/leader, if he is a good distributor, Baker would cover his weaknesses and vice versa. 

TLDR He's an inconsistent 6/10 championship player, we're needing 7-8s. There's a reason we need a central defender. He has potential but don't ignore all the blatant errors he's making just because you like him. I hope that will iron out with experience, but not sure because he has played a fair amount of games that he will ever go for £15 million to a Premier League team. And woof is Kalas not helping him. I actually think 3/4 choice central defender is the right level for him in our squad right now.

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2 hours ago, Shtanley said:

LJ berates TM all the time, how many times did Kalas give away possession today? Don't recall LJ ever having a go at him.

TM did a couple of times and always received a massive earful from LJ.

Ones man’s berating is another man’s coaching. 
LJ did it loads with Eliasson in his first couple of seasons. Look back and you’ll note that in many many games, LJ played Eliasson on the wing which was adjacent to the technical area. 
If he was left wing first half, he’d spend more time on the right in the second half. 
This is because LJ wanted to talk him through the game. He’d ensure he was down his side most of the match and able to get messages across to him - this may sometimes have been in a ‘berating’ manner. 
Moore is still being ‘coached’ during a game, thus LJ is more likely to be shouting instructions/advice/profanities at Moore, more so than Kalas. 

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59 minutes ago, Prinny said:

I see potential but I feel he's massively over hyped on here. People are acting like he's Adam Webster 2.0 and he's waaay off IMO. Don't get me wrong, not writing him off, i like him the person, i like his desire to get better, his seeming professionalism. I have zero intention to get rid of him. Taylor Moore is what's right with our model and what's wrong with it. You have a young player with all the intangibles who's out there getting better but making mistakes. This will help us long term but hurts us short term. However, right now...

There's so many really bad things he does. Today is no exception. There's a moment in the first five or so minutes where he gets out muscled and turned when he awkwardly tries to nick the ball from behind their player. There's two decisions which work. Stay behind and let them get it under control, or clatter through them and give a foul. He delicately wafts a leg at it, and ends up off balance before being turned.

Then there's his attempts to bring the ball out.. Adam Webster he is not. There were a couple of really bad ones today. I like that he tries. But especially on his left foot, it's inconsistent to say the least. It looks awkward. Like he's doing the thing we all know he needs to do, and yet even he doesn't believe he should be doing it. There's the very obvious concentration lapses and he's not the type to really put his head in where it hurts. Then there's getting burned by their 11 for pace. Kalas did too.

Which leaves me wondering, what type of player is he exactly? Jack of all trades centre back. Ok Physically, Ok technically, Ok mentally. So he's Ok. And Ok isn't good enough for where we want to be. He needs to get better, he seems to want to get better which is great. But his decision making and concentration is inconsistent.

What is Taylor Moore GREAT at? Let's use a Johnsonism. What's his USP? Character? Professionalism?

He's definitely hurt playing left side in a two. We've seen that a few times now and it's looked awkward each time. Also Kalas is not helping him with distribution because he's been awful since returning from injury IMO. And left central defender is the number two priority to sort out because we're kinda stuck with Kalas. Who has to be injured right? I mean generally, not just at the end of the game. Just looks off the pace.

I think a lot of fans like him the person. They like the story about the contract. They seem to be eating up the story about the captaincy. You don't need an armband to be a leader, it's a prop. It's a crutch. You can't fake being the leader. I don't know about following someone who is like "please sir, can i be the leader sir?". It comes across as very school boyish to me. He's replaced Joe Bryan as the nicest of the nice boys we have in our team. I don't really want that in a central defender. I don't think a collection of nice lads is a successful route. I don't know the dressing room dynamic, maybe it's fine and everyone loves that. I think it's an odd thing to do.

He's 22, he's played 100 games. It's his first full season in the championship and because he's smart I'm sure he's learning lessons. But on the job training in a promotion push is leading to some bad film. I think him playing alongside Baker will be interesting. Baker doesn't communicate well IMO, but is that physical beast who's technically limited. They both get to play in their natural sides and if Moore is as good as people think, he'll shine. If he is a good communicator/leader, if he is a good distributor, Baker would cover his weaknesses and vice versa. 

TLDR He's an inconsistent 6/10 championship player, we're needing 7-8s. There's a reason we need a central defender. He has potential but don't ignore all the blatant errors he's making just because you like him. I hope that will iron out with experience, but not sure because he has played a fair amount of games that he will ever go for £15 million to a Premier League team. And woof is Kalas not helping him. I actually think 3/4 choice central defender is the right level for him in our squad right now.

Really good, thought provoking post Prinny.  Don’t agree with all of it, but it asks some good questions in our evaluation of Taylor Moore.

Moore and Baker in a 4, has happened once this season....Boro at home.  I thought Baker needed to take him under his wing a bit more, but didn’t.  Baker led Flint through being part of a back 4 when on loan in 15/16.  I expected him to do the same with Moore, but he didn’t.

So will be interesting if they’re our pairing v Wigan.

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Not sure what the problem is with this. 
A skipper was required for the day and Moore put himself forward. 
Hats off to him for stepping up and having the desire to better himself. 
Hats off to LJ for empowering Moore and allowing him to take control of his own development. 
It’s also not as if Moore has never been a skipper - he captained England at 3 different age groups. 
 

Some might say this is an example of being a good coach and leader. Others will call LJ a dick. You pays yer money you takes yer choice. 

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13 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

Here it is! Quoted from Taylor.

He took a 50% pay cut (effectively) so he could prove himself over another 12 months. Which, given he could have suffered a career ending injury over that period of time shows you what a 'proper' player he is.

Chances are, he could have got a 3 year deal in League One and a bit of financial security, but he wanted to continue his education with a ball at BS3.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/football-league-blog/2019/sep/25/bristol-city-taylor-moore-mbappe-coman-england-france-liverpool

I’ve always liked him, there just seems to be something about him that elevates him above his peers.

You can see he’s a leader; pointing, talking and coaching those around him in games even when he’s not captain (or even playing to his potential himself) and that takes some cojones - as it did to seek help when his mental health took a turn for the worse and when he wanted to stay in BS3 so much he gambled as per the above article. 

A young man who can be very proud of himself and certainly someone who can still improve himself and the First XI. 

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I'm the first to admit I didn't think he'd develop into the player he has but fair play to him for knuckling down and transforming himself into a decent Championship player.

But lest not forget that whilst WeeLee is happy to deflect yesterday's performance (sic) with tales of armbands and knocking on doors, TM's signally been Mr Expendible according him this year. Routinely being dropped after a string of decent performances and for no good reason he's top of the list to be dragged off whenever WeeLee's called the set-up wrong or the team are playing badly ( I.e. most weeks.) How many times has he been sacrificed during the first half this season? First half! A 'natural born leader' turning in many of our best performances yet lower down the pecking order than a raft of WeeLee's chosen inadequates.

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16 hours ago, Shtanley said:

LJ berates TM all the time, how many times did Kalas give away possession today? Don't recall LJ ever having a go at him.

TM did a couple of times and always received a massive earful from LJ.

One thing I don’t like to see LJ doing is that he seems to single out the ‘nicer, softer’ players for critism. Eg Hordor was thrown under the bus for THAT defeat at Preston after the third or was it the fourth goal when he hadn’t even been on the pitch for the first couple. LJ has also done similar to Taylor Moore when he wouldn’t possibly slate players like Kalas, Baker, Williams etc. Not a nice trait in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I'm the first to admit I didn't think he'd develop into the player he has but fair play to him for knuckling down and transforming himself into a decent Championship player.

But lest not forget that whilst WeeLee is happy to deflect yesterday's performance (sic) with tales of armbands and knocking on doors, TM's signally been Mr Expendible according him this year. Routinely being dropped after a string of decent performances and for no good reason he's top of the list to be dragged off whenever WeeLee's called the set-up wrong or the team are playing badly ( I.e. most weeks.) How many times has he been sacrificed during the first half this season? First half! A 'natural born leader' turning in many of our best performances yet lower down the pecking order than a raft of WeeLee's chosen inadequates.

On one of the recent recorded interviews,  I believe , it was COD who let slip that TM had turned his ankle .

Perhaps that would be a reason . 

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8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

On one of the recent recorded interviews,  I believe , it was COD who let slip that TM had turned his ankle .

Perhaps that would be a reason . 

What, every time he's been dropped or pulled off early? From my vantage ( particularly away from home) he's the go to sacrifice when things go wrong.

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15 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Neither Bailey or Josh were in the squad and the other one who`s done it (Korey) was on the bench so someone had to step up I guess.

Has there been a change in the captaincy I wonder? Korey wasn’t captain against Brentford but as far as I was aware he was second behind Bailey Wright. 
 

As for Taylor Moore, he still has mistakes in his game but he is club captain material with the talent. I am not writing off this season but I’d start phasing out a lot of these players in favour of younger ones. COD, Smith, Williams, Paterson and Baker. I’d be using their minutes on players like Moore and Massengo. Might even recall a couple like Morrell and Smith(Jonny) who are having significant impacts in the lower leagues. 

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2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

What, every time he's been dropped or pulled off early? From my vantage ( particularly away from home) he's the go to sacrifice when things go wrong.

Moore? He's been moved out to RB a few times and kept on rather than just a straight CB for CB swap so not the go to

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16 hours ago, Harry said:

Not sure what the problem is with this. 
A skipper was required for the day and Moore put himself forward. 
Hats off to him for stepping up and having the desire to better himself. 
Hats off to LJ for empowering Moore and allowing him to take control of his own development. 
It’s also not as if Moore has never been a skipper - he captained England at 3 different age groups. 
 

Some might say this is an example of being a good coach and leader. Others will call LJ a dick. You pays yer money you takes yer choice. 

I dunno if you've noticed, but at the moment literally everything that LJ does or doesn't do is the wrong thing.

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28 minutes ago, hodge said:

Moore? He's been moved out to RB a few times and kept on rather than just a straight CB for CB swap so not the go to

In the league I think he's started only 14 of the 26 and of those he's been subbed 6 times (3 before the 2nd half and 5 before the hour mark.) Given his performances if that isn't go to expendable I don't know what is?

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19 hours ago, Shtanley said:

LJ berates TM all the time, how many times did Kalas give away possession today? Don't recall LJ ever having a go at him.

TM did a couple of times and always received a massive earful from LJ.

maybe that’s because that’s how TM takes criticism and improves? Some players hate a bollocking and others prefer iT

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1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

 

 

maybe that’s because that’s how TM takes criticism and improves? Some players hate a bollocking and others prefer iT

Context would need to applied, how many of those 6 were we losing at half time, how many did we change formation? For a guy stepping up from league 1 he's more likely to be sacrificed than Kalas or Williams

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2 minutes ago, shelts said:

I must say I was quite vocal that TM wouldn’t make it here . My attitude has changed as I think he’s ever improving and is comfortable bringing the ball out . 

I thought he would (v Hull EFL Cup and Bury loan), then I thought he wouldn’t (Cheltenham loan) then I thought he would again (early Southend loan), then I thought he wouldn’t again (latter time at Southend), then I thought he will (now). ???

Just shows that development lines aren’t often very straight!

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21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought he would (v Hull EFL Cup and Bury loan), then I thought he wouldn’t (Cheltenham loan) then I thought he would again (early Southend loan), then I thought he wouldn’t again (latter time at Southend), then I thought he will (now). ???

Just shows that development lines aren’t often very straight!

He will learn lots off of Williams on the dark arts of defending which will only improve him . It’s never easy for the younger players as we have a fair bit of clout in the transfer market being able to buy more of the finished article . We have lots of lads out on loan . We seem to struggle at right fullback and Zach is at Aberdeen , midfield could do with something different Morrell ?!

I suppose we have to be patient 

 

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On 04/01/2020 at 21:58, Prinny said:

I see potential but I feel he's massively over hyped on here. People are acting like he's Adam Webster 2.0 and he's waaay off IMO. Don't get me wrong, not writing him off, i like him the person, i like his desire to get better, his seeming professionalism. I have zero intention to get rid of him. Taylor Moore is what's right with our model and what's wrong with it. You have a young player with all the intangibles who's out there getting better but making mistakes. This will help us long term but hurts us short term. However, right now...

There's so many really bad things he does. Today is no exception. There's a moment in the first five or so minutes where he gets out muscled and turned when he awkwardly tries to nick the ball from behind their player. There's two decisions which work. Stay behind and let them get it under control, or clatter through them and give a foul. He delicately wafts a leg at it, and ends up off balance before being turned.

Then there's his attempts to bring the ball out.. Adam Webster he is not. There were a couple of really bad ones today. I like that he tries. But especially on his left foot, it's inconsistent to say the least. It looks awkward. Like he's doing the thing we all know he needs to do, and yet even he doesn't believe he should be doing it. There's the very obvious concentration lapses and he's not the type to really put his head in where it hurts. Then there's getting burned by their 11 for pace. Kalas did too.

Which leaves me wondering, what type of player is he exactly? Jack of all trades centre back. Ok Physically, Ok technically, Ok mentally. So he's Ok. And Ok isn't good enough for where we want to be. He needs to get better, he seems to want to get better which is great. But his decision making and concentration is inconsistent.

What is Taylor Moore GREAT at? Let's use a Johnsonism. What's his USP? Character? Professionalism?

He's definitely hurt playing left side in a two. We've seen that a few times now and it's looked awkward each time. Also Kalas is not helping him with distribution because he's been awful since returning from injury IMO. And left central defender is the number two priority to sort out because we're kinda stuck with Kalas. Who has to be injured right? I mean generally, not just at the end of the game. Just looks off the pace.

I think a lot of fans like him the person. They like the story about the contract. They seem to be eating up the story about the captaincy. You don't need an armband to be a leader, it's a prop. It's a crutch. You can't fake being the leader. I don't know about following someone who is like "please sir, can i be the leader sir?". It comes across as very school boyish to me. He's replaced Joe Bryan as the nicest of the nice boys we have in our team. I don't really want that in a central defender. I don't think a collection of nice lads is a successful route. I don't know the dressing room dynamic, maybe it's fine and everyone loves that. I think it's an odd thing to do.

He's 22, he's played 100 games. It's his first full season in the championship and because he's smart I'm sure he's learning lessons. But on the job training in a promotion push is leading to some bad film. I think him playing alongside Baker will be interesting. Baker doesn't communicate well IMO, but is that physical beast who's technically limited. They both get to play in their natural sides and if Moore is as good as people think, he'll shine. If he is a good communicator/leader, if he is a good distributor, Baker would cover his weaknesses and vice versa. 

TLDR He's an inconsistent 6/10 championship player, we're needing 7-8s. There's a reason we need a central defender. He has potential but don't ignore all the blatant errors he's making just because you like him. I hope that will iron out with experience, but not sure because he has played a fair amount of games that he will ever go for £15 million to a Premier League team. And woof is Kalas not helping him. I actually think 3/4 choice central defender is the right level for him in our squad right now.

I broadly agree but with the caveat that 22 is still very young for a defender. For example, Aden Flint was still an Alfreton Town Player at Moore’s age, still looked a bit shaky in League 1 when he joined us at 24 and between 24 and 26 became a Championship level defender.

I think wanting to improve is half the battle. He does badly need to work on his concentration for sure but, for me, that is the only area of the game where I think he needs to do psychological work as well as developing the technical and physical attributes that come with age and experience. I also am unconvinced he is anywhere near as much of a “nice guy” as he comes across. He does seem an affable chap but I think he is a lot more competitive on the pitch than he sometimes gets credit for.

I agree he has his flaws but I am extremely impressed by how much he has improved in a short time and can see no reason why, if he has the mentality and desire to improve that appears to be the case, he can’t come on leaps and bounds over the next couple of years. Defenders don’t tend to hit their best until 26 or 27 so he has time on his side.

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2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I broadly agree but with the caveat that 22 is still very young for a defender. For example, Aden Flint was still an Alfreton Town Player at Moore’s age, still looked a bit shaky in League 1 when he joined us at 24 and between 24 and 26 became a Championship level defender.

I think wanting to improve is half the battle. He does badly need to work on his concentration for sure but, for me, that is the only area of the game where I think he needs to do psychological work as well as developing the technical and physical attributes that come with age and experience. I also am unconvinced he is anywhere near as much of a “nice guy” as he comes across. He does seem an affable chap but I think he is a lot more competitive on the pitch than he sometimes gets credit for.

I agree he has his flaws but I am extremely impressed by how much he has improved in a short time and can see no reason why, if he has the mentality and desire to improve that appears to be the case, he can’t come on leaps and bounds over the next couple of years. Defenders don’t tend to hit their best until 26 or 27 so he has time on his side.

Aden Flint's a different example because of his career history IMO. It's pretty reasonable to assume that a player coming through non league if they have the talent will start to fulfil it with exposure to better training and better teammates. Taylor Moore is the exact opposite in terms of his development. 22 is young, but I don't recall too many players getting hugely "technically" better past that age. Different players have different career arcs, so we'll wait and see. Perhaps his recent transformation will drastically change his career. I hope so.

Taylor Moore might have time on his side, but you can also see why LJ wants an upgrade. NOW.

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