Sad and embarrassed

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, CyderInACan said:

I remember it down to 4,000 or so in the 4th Div. They were dark times for sure. 

Today seems a million light years away from that but there’s no denying entertainment is in short supply at AG these days. 

Back then did any of us do anything but hope that things would improve?    

However pretty much everything has changed in the 4 decades since. The internet for one and the social media that comes with it.........

This poor run of form will be short term and is just one part of just one season........

[Oh Louie louie]

Yes even under osman, gates were down to 6000.

I think we are lucky with our fanbase.

Lucky lucky lucky.......

 

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Lew-T said:

Speak for yourself. I just want what’s best for the club and I believe we should be playing and doing better than what we’re seeing, currently.

It appears Spudski would agree with you.. But probably won't. Unless he has had a complete change of view.

On 28/11/2019 at 09:59, spudski said:

...so frustrated with this City side this season.

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch.

What is the game plan?

It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it.

Defensively..I can see it.

Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. 

It's so frustrating to watch.

We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. Literally a bunch of individuals using their best attributes.

What the hell are we doing in training?

I get the injuries, and I get players have below par individual performances...but take that into account, the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

I've not witnessed us looking so tactically inept offensively for a long time.

Frustrating...as we know we have some good players and LJ can get it right.

But right now... it's amateur.

 

[Wrongagain]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

And would you be excited when McAllister is appointed in his place? If not, who do you suggest? And maybe you could get over to the 'next manager' thread and tell us. Because that's an interesting thread. Interesting for the lack of contributions from many of the LJ out contributor. And interesting because the truth is that, aside from a few totally unrealistic suggestions (like we're going to,poach the Liverpool assistant), the conclusion is that there are few options and most of those that there are you may we'll consider un exciting. And McAllister is the most likely.

What makes me sad and embarrassed is the utter negativity and pointlessness of so many threads on here. It's just, here's a problem, let's find a scapegoat, let's all shout as loudly as we can LJ out, let's throw in a bit of abuse now and then, let's find a bunch of stories and half truths to support that demonisation,  let's not bother to think about what happens next, or about what a proper long term solution might actually look like.

Really, that 'new manager' thread is enlightening. And I'd favour a temporary ban on any OTIB posts that say LJ out without the poster first contributing their suggestion on that thread.

Personally it matters not to me, I have watched dire uninspiring performances on many occasions in the last couple of seasons and it’s my belief the fault lies with only one person.

I seem to remember that the forum is about fans and their opinions!

[Fuber]

4 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Semenyo

Morell, imo. Id rate him over Korey. 

[CotswoldRed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Well said.........I well remember those days with gates at AG of 5k...........
It makes me smile when posters complain about how things are these days...........

In fairness, many people weren't there then. 

And if we're saying we shouldn't complain because of 1982 then we'll never aspire for or expect better. 

That's like saying we shouldn't help the needy because they've already got it far better than in Victorian times. 

Let's deal with the here and now. 

[spudski]

23 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It appears Spudski would agree with you.. But probably won't. Unless he has had a complete change of view.

 

I still believe we can do better. As every team can.

However I'm being realistic to the reactions and expectations being bounded about right now on the forum.

Football is an ever changing entity...it changes every game as the constants change.

[italian dave]

28 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Personally it matters not to me, I have watched dire uninspiring performances on many occasions in the last couple of seasons and it’s my belief the fault lies with only one person.

I seem to remember that the forum is about fans and their opinions!

I'm not denying you and others the right to that opinion. Just expressing my opinion that it's not terribly constructive to start and end with 'sack the manager' . All that does is leave us without a manager. What next? 

My opinion, based on the evidence of what I've seen happen repeatedly here and at other clubs, is that clubs which sack the manager every year, every time they go on a bad run (and 5 games barely counts a season that!), every time they fail to achieve short term expectations, very rarely succeed. 

[Fuber]

30 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Back then did any of us do anything but hope that things would improve?    

However pretty much everything has changed in the 4 decades since. The internet for one and the social media that comes with it.........

This poor run of form will be short term and is just one part of just one season........

With all due respect Robbered thats not true and you know it. 

It may be true in a City perspective - but alternatively consider LJ's track record. 

1 Win in 12 at Oldham. 

2 Wins in 13 at Barnsley including 8 losses in a row. 

1 in 17 for us in the 16/17 season.

1 in 10 in 17/18.

3 in 15 last season. 

Currently we're now 1 in 7.

I ultimately think that there is something deeper going on within the squads that LJ manages.

Strikes me as a sympton of an issue with players im regards to either LJs personality or his management style. 

I think he micromanages when they do well and over complicates it, all the bad runs come after decent starts to the season, and the players can only remember so many instructions. 

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Fuber said:

With all due respect Robbered thats not true and you know it. 

It may be true in a City perspective - but alternatively consider LJ's track record. 

1 Win in 12 at Oldham. 

2 Wins in 13 at Barnsley including 8 losses in a row. 

1 in 17 for us in the 16/17 season.

1 in 10 in 17/18.

3 in 15 last season. 

Currently we're now 1 in 7.

I ultimately think that there is something deeper going on within the squads that LJ manages.

Strikes me as a sympton of an issue with players im regards to either LJs personality or his management style. 

I think he micromanages when they do well and over complicates it, all the bad runs come after decent starts to the season, and the players can only remember so many instructions. 

Yep, all fair points but I was referring in a context to a much longer period of time.......4 decades in fact.

 
This current period of poor results is minuscule in comparison - that’s my point.

[Fuber]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

And would you be excited when McAllister is appointed in his place? If not, who do you suggest? And maybe you could get over to the 'next manager' thread and tell us. Because that's an interesting thread. Interesting for the lack of contributions from many of the LJ out contributor. And interesting because the truth is that, aside from a few totally unrealistic suggestions (like we're going to,poach the Liverpool assistant), the conclusion is that there are few options and most of those that there are you may we'll consider un exciting. And McAllister is the most likely.

What makes me sad and embarrassed is the utter negativity and pointlessness of so many threads on here. It's just, here's a problem, let's find a scapegoat, let's all shout as loudly as we can LJ out, let's throw in a bit of abuse now and then, let's find a bunch of stories and half truths to support that demonisation,  let's not bother to think about what happens next, or about what a proper long term solution might actually look like.

Really, that 'new manager' thread is enlightening. And I'd favour a temporary ban on any OTIB posts that say LJ out without the poster first contributing their suggestion on that thread.

Anyone who can get us back to basics and playing with a higher tempo. 

If thats Macca, so be it, Holden, fine, whatever. 

We just appear to need somone who can give the players a modicum of freedom, gets them back to basics, and restore their own confidence. 

Do the above, see if Farke or Smith lose their roles at current clubs respectively,  make an approach. See what happens.

[Fuber]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Yep, all fair points but I was referring in a context to a much longer period of time.......4 decades in fact.

 
This current period of poor results is minuscule in comparison - that’s my point.

Thats fair. However are we comparing LJs tenure in respect of the last 4 decades or just this season?

I agree the current rot is small for a manager to be sacked, but how many other times have we had a manager with the players so poorly compared to their apparent potential? Osman possibly? Cant compare Pulis with him leaving for Pompey. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Well said.........I well remember those days with gates at AG of 5k...........
It makes me smile when posters complain about how things are these days...........

Some of my best times watching City have been following us in front of few fans, in the bottom league, watching lower standard yet entertaining football. There's a correlation; the fewer in attendance the greater the fact those there are to watch the football not there studying their phones, inspecting their purchases or thinking they in the stands ARE the entertainment. I didn't mind watching less talented players who gave their all, for little reward.

Far preferable IMHO to watching equally untalented numpties with an over exaggerated opinion of themselves and their abilities (sic) for which they're today being paid an undeserved king's ransom likely to bankrupt the club.

AG may be a decent stadium but in truth less enjoyable than watching from Crackers Corner where one could stand with ones mates, where the quips were fast, furious and funny and the half-time pies fresh and hot from Clark's. Nobody gave a hoot as to how Chelsea or Spurs were doing, save for checking the programme and boards at half time; nobody had warehouse sized garden sheds and discerning fans could spot a duffer when they saw him on the pitch.

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I for one am sick and fed up of hearing about 'patience' and 'progress'.

I made my debut watching City 55 years ago. We were 6th in the 2nd tier of English football. Allowing for the reduction in the number of teams in the top tier by my reckoning and 55 years on we are, compared to our peers, one place lower than when I started.

 

55 years for me too this year. 110 years between us; doesn't bear thinking about, does it?!

I'm intrigued by your reference to patience and progress though. Is that because you don't think patience and progress are the right objectives for sustainable success? Or just that 55 years is a long time?!

If it's the former then I'd disagree with you. The only time we've achieved real success in those 55 years (measured by top tier football) was off the back of patience that would test even SL! During the times we've endured we have tried the gung ho approach on at least a couple of occasions (thinking especially the Thorpe/akinbiyi and the Coppell times) and that failed dismally. 

If it's the latter then you can hardly lay the finger of blame at LJ, or even SL, for the majority of that time. The past 4 years have been slow and steady, but progress none the less, and as I've suggested above, apart from the one other occasion when we adopted that approach, it's got us closer to success than at any other time. And although I'm disappointed by the past 5 games, I'm also mindful that Alan Dicks had a far from consistent upward trajectory in his years at the club, and it wouldn't be surprising is we had a blip now and again.

You might say that success is judged not by progress towards sustainable top tier football, but by just enjoying the football and not caring whether we win or lose as long as it's enjoyable. It's a reasonable view; I enjoyed our time in the fourth tier under Terry Cooper, I enjoyed it when we had Jacki and Andy Cole and we'd win 3-2 one week and lose 3-4 the next. But I don't honestly think that's what most posters on here would want. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Well said.........I well remember those days with gates at AG of 5k...........
It makes me smile when posters complain about how things are these days...........

I first found this my club back in 67/68 when we were in this very division, 52years later here we are. We all know we have been lower and higher up the leagues since then but now we find us in a good position..again to get to the top league...again.

Is it so wrong to want to change a manager, as our present one seems to have reached his limit and seems not to have learnt from prev poor runs and lets be fair some poor recruiting, spending record amounts and now taking time out to recruit/spend even more. We also know that SL rules and he will not be swayed by opinions on here. So what else can we do apart from complain? sit down shut up? not going to happen.

50 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Back then did any of us do anything but hope that things would improve?    

However pretty much everything has changed in the 4 decades since. The internet for one and the social media that comes with it.........

This poor run of form will be short term and is just one part of just one season........

Have we not had poor runs since LJ took over, record breaking in one season; everything is in place to move to the top division apart from a manager to take us there i.m.o. We are an estabilished championship side (hopefully) and were up the likes of Wolves backsides not long ago, now look at them and Sheff Utd and look at us? difference = manager.

 

[italian dave]

13 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Anyone who can get us back to basics and playing with a higher tempo. 

If thats Macca, so be it, Holden, fine, whatever. 

We just appear to need somone who can give the players a modicum of freedom, gets them back to basics, and restore their own confidence. 

Do the above, see if Farke or Smith lose their roles at current clubs respectively,  make an approach. See what happens.

It would only be 'see what happens' though, wouldn't it? And that's never worked before! 

Dont get me wrong; I wouldn't argue for a moment with your assessment of what we need, but I just think that we've achieved that before under LJ, that we're in a position where we don't need to panic, and that upsetting the whole apple cart now for a "see what happens' might be something we'd regret. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

29 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

In fairness, many people weren't there then. 

And if we're saying we shouldn't complain because of 1982 then we'll never aspire for or expect better. 

 

Yep, but quite alot of us were there, as well as home and away in div.4.

I for one don't expect, or particularly yearn for, the PL - if it comes it comes - but I do expect my visits to AG to be far more enjoyable and entertaining than the all too often tedious City performances we've had to sit through for the last couple of years.

We have been very loyal over many decades but supporting your club is surely about entertainment and enjoyment as well, and I'm getting none.

Give us a team and a quality of football to shout about and get enthused about LJ - It really shouldn't be too much to ask.

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I'm intrigued by your reference to patience and progress though. Is that because you don't think patience and progress are the right objectives for sustainable success?

Both are bull phrases to describe we're light years clear at the top of the underachievers league.

Under Dicks and in reaching the top flight we were patient as we had little resource to be anything otherwise. Nicking and developing lower league scraps from Scotland and the North. Even when it went spectacularly wrong it wasn't splurging what we didn't have on external extravagance, in fact the opposite. Therein lies the difference. WeeLee (and some before him) have spent fortunes looking to buy instant success and have signally failed. It's not slow, patient progress, it's endless cycles of spending fortunes buying rubbish, or at least players no better than we already possess, and then crass justification as to why we underperform - again and again and again and again.....

[The Coach]

Johnson’s got the excuse ready for the next game..

[Fuber]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It would only be 'see what happens' though, wouldn't it? And that's never worked before! 

Dont get me wrong; I wouldn't argue for a moment with your assessment of what we need, but I just think that we've achieved that before under LJ, that we're in a position where we don't need to panic, and that upsetting the whole apple cart now for a "see what happens' might be something we'd regret. 

Summarises any risk of change of managerial change tho Dave. 

I think myself and a large portion of fans simply want the steaky runs to end and more consistent performances and tactics. 

[ashton_fan]

16 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Some of my best times watching City have been following us in front of few fans, in the bottom league, watching lower standard yet entertaining football. There's a correlation; the fewer in attendance the greater the fact those there are to watch the football not there studying their phones, inspecting their purchases or thinking they in the stands ARE the entertainment. I didn't mind watching less talented players who gave their all, for little reward.

Far preferable IMHO to watching equally untalented numpties with an over exaggerated opinion of themselves and their abilities (sic) for which they're today being paid an undeserved king's ransom likely to bankrupt the club.

AG may be a decent stadium but in truth less enjoyable than watching from Crackers Corner where one could stand with ones mates, where the quips were fast, furious and funny and the half-time pies fresh and hot from Clark's. Nobody gave a hoot as to how Chelsea or Spurs were doing, save for checking the programme and boards at half time; nobody had warehouse sized garden sheds and discerning fans could spot a duffer when they saw him on the pitch.

I think this sums it up, many on here would be happier watching L1 football where we can go all-out attack and do well, but at this level there are some big clubs and we can't play that kind of football and survive (Cotts tried it and we played some pretty football but other teams just picked us off), we have to take a more cautious approach to get results and if we did get promoted to the Prem we'd have to be even more cautious and would get beaten far more often. Personally I'd rather be where we are now than going back to L1 even if it meant we'd be able to thrash the other teams most weeks.

As others have said today's issues are nothing compared to past seasons, I remember going to Newport thinking it might be City's last ever game, now that was something to really get upset about.

[Robbored]

10 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

I first found this my club back in 67/68 when we were in this very division, 52years later here we are. We all know we have been lower and higher up the leagues since then but now we find us in a good position..again to get to the top league...again.

Is it so wrong to want to change a manager, as our present one seems to have reached his limit and seems not to have learnt from prev poor runs and lets be fair some poor recruiting, spending record amounts and now taking time out to recruit/spend even more. We also know that SL rules and he will not be swayed by opinions on here. So what else can we do apart from complain? sit down shut up? not going to happen.

Have we not had poor runs since LJ took over, record breaking in one season; everything is in place to move to the top division apart from a manager to take us there i.m.o. We are an estabilished championship side (hopefully) and were up the likes of Wolves backsides not long ago, now look at them and Sheff Utd and look at us? difference = manager.

 

We’ve had numerous poor runs numerous times over numerous years.

This recent run of poor results is nothing - Just think back to the early 80s  when City plummeted down the leagues - in 4 seasons City couldn’t hardly  buy a win.......

In more recent times a certain GJ led us on the clubs record consecutive defeats.........but many posters forget that.

 

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Both are bull phrases to describe we're light years clear at the top of the underachievers league.

Under Dicks and in reaching the top flight we were patient as we had little resource to be anything otherwise. Nicking and developing lower league scraps from Scotland and the North. Even when it went spectacularly wrong it wasn't splurging what we didn't have on external extravagance, in fact the opposite. Therein lies the difference. WeeLee (and some before him) have spent fortunes looking to buy instant success and have signally failed. It's not slow, patient progress, it's endless cycles of spending fortunes buying rubbish, or at least players no better than we already possess, and then crass justification as to why we underperform - again and again and again and again.....

Relatively, we're still under-resourced compared to our peers. Under Dicks we didn't have to,contend with teams coming down with massive parachute payments. We can't go out and buy the sort of players WBA, Fulham etc can.

And it is slow patient progress. League position, year on year. If anything, quicker and more consistent progress than under Dicks.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

....struggling a bit, currently. To be kind.

Interesting point, though: the best stuff under Johnson was with Flint, Pack, Bryan, Reid, Frankie, Korey. And while Fam was injured. And a back four of Wright, Flint, Baker, Magnússon (ie, four defenders at the back).

Reid made an enormous difference: with Reid, LJ was a "great coach;" without Reid, he is pretty ordinary. Only so much he can do.

 

 

Reid was great and undoubtedly a major part of things in that spell especially, but I don't think it was just Reid...the team as a whole during that injury hit spell- by necessity as much as anything- was very nicely balanced.  

The way we were setup tended to ensure the compactness, yet technical ability too. Meant we were seldom outnumbered...orthodox wingers and full backs in that team, at that time, may well have unbalanced us. We were seldom outnumbered in key areas.

One of those where if one component switched, the sum total can differ or regress, perhaps sharply. 

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, italian dave said:

55 years for me too this year. 110 years between us; doesn't bear thinking about, does it?!

I'm intrigued by your reference to patience and progress though. Is that because you don't think patience and progress are the right objectives for sustainable success? Or just that 55 years is a long time?!

If it's the former then I'd disagree with you. The only time we've achieved real success in those 55 years (measured by top tier football) was off the back of patience that would test even SL! During the times we've endured we have tried the gung ho approach on at least a couple of occasions (thinking especially the Thorpe/akinbiyi and the Coppell times) and that failed dismally. 

If it's the latter then you can hardly lay the finger of blame at LJ, or even SL, for the majority of that time. The past 4 years have been slow and steady, but progress none the less, and as I've suggested above, apart from the one other occasion when we adopted that approach, it's got us closer to success than at any other time. And although I'm disappointed by the past 5 games, I'm also mindful that Alan Dicks had a far from consistent upward trajectory in his years at the club, and it wouldn't be surprising is we had a blip now and again.

You might say that success is judged not by progress towards sustainable top tier football, but by just enjoying the football and not caring whether we win or lose as long as it's enjoyable. It's a reasonable view; I enjoyed our time in the fourth tier under Terry Cooper, I enjoyed it when we had Jacki and Andy Cole and we'd win 3-2 one week and lose 3-4 the next. But I don't honestly think that's what most posters on here would want. 

Sensible post ID.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Chappers said:

We spent a lot of money, but on existing players and ones who were unlikely to be an immediate improvement, with the exception of Bentley.

Felt sorry for Massengo yesterday, gets knocked around a lot, and treated the ball like a hand grenade, never looked happy in possession. He looks way off being Championship ready, and for a club like us, it’s a lot of money tied up in a long term prospect.

Playing Massengo in a 2 (or Nagy, or Brownhill, or before him Walsh, or even to an extent Hegeler) did him- or them- few favours!! Easier to bully and thereby win control of the midfield in a 2 than a 3.

[BTRFTG]

25 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Relatively, we're still under-resourced compared to our peers. Under Dicks we didn't have to,contend with teams coming down with massive parachute payments. We can't go out and buy the sort of players WBA, Fulham etc can.

 

There will be some statto on here who'll be able to produce a list of all those powerhouse, mega-million spending sides who reached the Premier FOR THE FIRST TIME, overtaking us in the process, who likewise had less of a pot to pot in than us yet who managed to do what we've signally failed to do whilst squandering a fortune. To get those parachute payments one first has to get there and we never have.

Your analysis compares apples with pears. 49 clubs have reached the Premier, not us.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

Don't mean to be sarcastic or demeaning but if we all "accepted who we are and our station in life" we would still be living in caves and with no ambitions.

Bournemouth, Brighton, Wolves, Leicester and plenty of others clearly don't have that "we know our place" attitude so why the hell should Bristol City be different.

As Chairman Fricker once said to me in the nineties, "We prefer to be a big fish in the little (Third Division) pond".

Tbh it's worth analysing each individual case of those who have overtaken us. No two are the same, a number diverge vastly. 

No magic bullet, in a nutshell. 

[steviestevieneville]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

What attitude? Being realistic...or demanding because it doesn't suit your timeline?

Listen to yourself... Just because you've supported City all these years, doesn't make it that Promotion has to come now, just because you're running out of patience. Life doesn't work like that...it may never come. We all want to shag Kylie, but however hard you try, the majority are gonna be left disappointed.

Kinnel... we've got an owner that is doing a lot for this Club. Many positives. And we seem to have a bunch of moaning old gits because they aren't getting what they want quick enough. Some of you deserve the Gas tbh...so ungrateful and entitled.

We are half way through the season...let's see where we are at the end before throwing your toys out the pram.

I get more frustrated, by some of our moaning entitled fan base. First to jump around and celebrate when things are going well...but always the first to moan and complain and not get behind the team when things are going bad. It's always easy to moan and ask to get rid, rather that try and support. We are a typical sing when we are winning fan base. Always reactionary....rather than trying to be positive and help try to turn things round.

Good job we've got an owner and coaching team fighting to win, even when things aren't going well and mistakes made. If it was run by half our fan base, they'd sit around moaning, asking everyone else around them to sort out the problem for them. Then take the applause when it does turn round.

It's a good job we've got a fantastic away SUPPORT...

How about being realistic and realising every team is in the same boat. Get behind the team and stop being entitled and moaning every time there's a blip.

This forum is so quiet when we are winning...yet totally implodes when we have a poor run. Says a lot tbh.

I've heard numerous times this season, fans saying words along the lines, that if we don't finish top 6, then this season and LJ is a failure. Total madness. And the more you hear it, you start to wonder what you're surrounded by. 

From my experience...a bunch of entitled moaning old gits, that want promotion now, as time is running out, and it's not happening quick enough for them...sad...but true.

I agree to a point , but for me it’s not about getting promoted now. I want to see progression in term of a regular formation, continuity of team selection and a style of play . Is that too much to ask ? 
As a club we’ve progressed massively but you can’t honestly say your happy with the football, it’s dire. No one knows what formation we’re going to get from one game to the next , the same with the team. As for a style of play , I genuinely haven’t got a clue. 
we’ll win a game and he’ll stick to it the formation and team, lose and he throws the baby out with the Bath water, baffling substitutions and formation changes. Players like continuity and simple instructions . With good managers , you know how they play , same formation every week . That’s all I want . LJ comes across as arrogant , that his shit don’t stink. Throwing players under the bus rather than taking the blame at times. How many changes , formation and players have we had at half time, then blaming the players, when it’s obvious he’s got things wrong from the start. I’m done with him to be honest. If there are fans demanding promotion then it’s ridiculous but most of us just want to enjoy our football, and quite frankly it’s enough to send a glass eye to sleep . 

[Chappers]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Playing Massengo in a 2 (or Nagy, or Brownhill, or before him Walsh, or even to an extent Hegeler) did him- or them- few favours!! Easier to bully and thereby win control of the midfield in a 2 than a 3.

There is also the point that Nagy and Massengo are both supposedly defensive midfielders, so in theory they should be strong enough to allow the more creative players to play. Without that solid base, your midfield falls apart. They will obviously need time to learn how to cope with the pace and physical demands of the Championship, but recent games have been worrying, with neither really looking to hold the ball, or move it forward positively.

Maybe Massengo needs a loan back to France, get some game time in a less physical environment.