Sad and embarrassed

[RedRaw]

3 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Yes, I can. 

Quality is, according to the English dictionary  "the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind".  So, a similar kind.  By that I'm going against teams in our league as they are, by right, a similar kind of standard.  This leads me to the league table, a barometer of quality.  We are 7th out of 24 teams.  Seems like we have quality of football to me if winning is what matters, and I believe it is.   

We are 3 points off playoff.  How is our football ineffective? 

Your responses are becoming Johnson-esque....lots of words and waffle.....how about opening your eyes to the actual football being played on the pitch. Other than a few games, the way we have played over the past 18 months has regressed to the point over the last 6/7 games we have been outplayed at home by the likes of Millwall and Shrewsbury. We may only be 3 points off the playoffs but there is only one way were going at the moment.

I do not want to see sideways football with no movement, players shirking tackles, having 1, 2 if we're lucky 3 shots on target per game and seeing other teams playing progressive football against us because they know they can. After a defeat, assuming he hasn't thrown another player under the bus, Johnson talks about doing the basics well and players being brave , yet he brought the players to the club and he is coaching them......he is instilling this "identity" into the players.   

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes a perception of standard. A widely held perception of Bristol City's football is that it is boring. The opening poster uses the standard of football in 2017 (?) against the standard of football to now.

You have completely avoided the point of what success can be to fans. You appear to want victory. It appears you have no qualms about what it looks like. Other fans may want artistry, team work, skill, drama etc .. Entertainment is success. 

 

I think at times in 2018-19 it wasn't so bad, there were varied good games for example- but less proactive than 2017/18 for sure.

This year however, the style has regressed sharply!

IMO anyway.

[Clutton Caveman]

1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

So you're basically saying you want a gamble with the football club on the off chance that it MIGHT work? 

Do you not think it is a gamble to take no action?

[pillred]

54 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Yes, I can. 

Quality is, according to the English dictionary  "the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind".  So, a similar kind.  By that I'm going against teams in our league as they are, by right, a similar kind of standard.  This leads me to the league table, a barometer of quality.  We are 7th out of 24 teams.  Seems like we have quality of football to me if winning is what matters, and I believe it is.   

We are 3 points off playoff.  How is our football ineffective? 

7th!! I wish, last time I looked we were 11th.

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Badger08 said:

Well, you can debate it can't you.  You're right, I do want victory, thats why I support Bristol City, to watch us win.  Thats what we've been doing on the whole isn't it.  Winning gives me satisfaction.  Don't get me wrong, who doesn't want Barcelona style football and artistry, but I want to be playing in the best leagues and watching the best players.  

So that begs the question, do you think most fans want artistry, skill and drama playing in league one? Or boring football in the prem?  

What I don't get is, do you honestly think we've been playing boring football the whole time LJ has been in charge?  And do you think he's been playing boring football all season? 

So that begs the question, do you think most fans want artistry, skill and drama playing in league one? Or boring football in the prem? 

The question is ludicrously weighted. Silly. I will reframe it and ask why do you think "boring" football will bring your Premier League dream closer?  Why is there no alternative?

What I don't get is, do you honestly think we've been playing boring football the whole time LJ has been in charge? 

No. THREE years ago Lee Johnson was clearly attempting to approach his football with a high tempo in and out of possession exciting style. A frequently dramatic action packed style quite removed from the ill defined approach he is using now to bore fans with. 

And do you think he's been playing boring football all season? 

A significant part of the season and last has been boring yes. 

 

 

[Maesknoll Red]

33 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Well, you can debate it can't you.  You're right, I do want victory, thats why I support Bristol City, to watch us win.  Thats what we've been doing on the whole isn't it.  Winning gives me satisfaction.  Don't get me wrong, who doesn't want Barcelona style football and artistry, but I want to be playing in the best leagues and watching the best players.  

So that begs the question, do you think most fans want artistry, skill and drama playing in league one? Or boring football in the prem?  

What I don't get is, do you honestly think we've been playing boring football the whole time LJ has been in charge?  And do you think he's been playing boring football all season? 

Why don’t the club use a much more mercenary approach?  If winning is the be all and end all, why not get rid of the academy, it’s coaches, it’s admin and all associated costs.  Put all that resource into players that are ready and able to be part of a team that can win, utilising loan options to the full.

You are still IMO, missing the point, it’s not league position that is the gripe, it’s the performances and entertainment value.

[CotswoldRed]

1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

Bristol City is a football club that buys players and sells them for a profit. Buy low and sell high, whilst reaping the benefit inbetween. We want to be self sufficient and not risk putting the club in danger, as we can't afford to spend outside of our means.  

We are a club that's identity is to play quality football, within the spending power that we have. Unless you can buy proven quality, then you have to take gambles.  Thats the way football works.  Thats why we will win some, and lose some (we aren't Real Madrid, Barcelona, who can cherry pick proven players no matter the cost).  But by god, we are winning more than we are losing at the moment.  You can see that through final league placings, higher up the league table than we have in YEARS.  We are a team that's competing with with bigger clubs, higher wages and parachute payments.  We are completing with clubs that have bigger histories, better geographically placed and more attractive. We are a club that are trying to do things the right way, without putting its very existence in danger. 

We are a club that has raised its profile within the game, and are looking to increase this through its off field activities in Stadium, training ground, womens football and Bristol Sport as a whole. 

We've done all of this during the LJ reign.  We as supporters need to realise that LJ has been at the heart of all of this.  He is the one who has set the bar of this football club, but without him, we wouldn't be able to set the bar as high as it is.  He's the person who has set the bar so high, that its acceptable to call for a managers head when only 3 points out from the playoffs, halfway through a season, when its him who has set that expectation in the success he has had. Just think about that!!!   

Identity isn't always about what happens on the pitch, but its also about what happens off of it.  We are the most stable we've been in years.  We've bought players that have genuine resell value.  We've sold players at a HUGE profit and we've got a reputation for doing things the right way.  LJ is a key part to all of this.  What other managers have even come close to this? 

And lets not shirk away from our responsibilities.  LJ isn't solely responsible for the identity of the club, we are as supporters, and at the moment our identity is a bunch of spoilt brats because we've lost a few games. 
I'm not stupid enough to think everything is rosey, but its a million miles away from the identity that SOD gave us. Or Pullis. Or Tinnion. Or Cotterill.  

The identity we have now is just fine, an identity that spreads across a stable football club and most of all an identity that competes. WE ARE COMPETING IN ONE OF EUROPE'S HARDEST LEAGUES. That's an identity that I like.  How many seasons can we say that we've competed in the championship? And our supporters want to risk all of it because we've lost a few games.  

 

So what does LJ mean when he says "we need to get our identity back"? 

We all know he's trying to refer to on-pitch matters. Hence you avoided answering. 

[WhistleHappy]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

Well I don't want us to bring in any odd sausage.

Agreed, the last thing we need is Lee bloody Bowyer..  

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Why don’t the club use a much more mercenary approach?  If winning is the be all and end all, why not get rid of the academy, it’s coaches, it’s admin and all associated costs.  Put all that resource into players that are ready and able to be part of a team that can win, utilising loan options to the full.

You are still IMO, missing the point, it’s not league position that is the gripe, it’s the performances and entertainment value.

May not be transferrable with FFP...I mean you can do it, but the margins then tighten, perhaps markedly.

I'd have to look it up in terms of impact on losses vs FFP losses but in terms of a rough early calculation, if we spend £3m on the academy per year- that's removed from FFP losses ie accounting losses - £3m=FFP loss,. Whereas if that £3m was spent on players that's £3m closer to a breach, ie accounting loss=FFP loss.

[Natchfever]

3 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I suggest you read again. "We are a club that's identity is to play quality football, within the spending power that we have"

So he is failing then.

[Cowshed]

20 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

 

You don't have to play boring football to get there.  I'm saying, I don't care if we do play boring football to get there, like cardiff did. 

All these LJ outers seem to think they can have their cake and eat it though, and that its a simple manager change and we will be the Barcelona of the Championship.

I'm going around in circles a bit, but I really do respect peoples opinions.  Ultimately, I see our form as a blip.  Am I right? who knows.  But I'm up for give LJ the benefit of the doubt, as you've said, he's got it in his locker to play some great football at this level.  Whilst we are in a decent position at the halfway mark, I'm inclined to support our manager.  Obviously that could change if we go on to lose 5 more games.  In which case, I will be on the same page as the outers (yours), but I'm not there yet and I will bow down to everyones superior knowledge. 

Just out of interest, if you don't want LJ as manager, who would you have? Nobody seems to be able to answer that question without spouting Chris Hughton.  

Cardiff City under Neil Warnock had a clear approach to their football - verticality and counter pressing. 

Bristol City?  Don't. 

Barcelona have a footballing philosophy that drives their football on and off the pitch. The club even defines what they consider to be atractive style the team will adopt.

Bristol City?  Don't. And I have not seen posters stating we should. It is possible without having millions upon millions to spend to have a team with identity and principles in its play be that Barcelona, Bristol City or Cardiff. Its very common in teams being promoted from this division. 

I do not take part in the who would you have threads due to A. Mr Johnson is the Manager B.The topics do not identify what the intent is. Short term promotion? Head of a more European football model or something else. That intent is relevant to the who.   

 

[lenred]

7 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Over the past month or so, yes, absolutely, but I didn't realise that we judged managers on 2 months worth of football.  

Oh come on. The football on offer has been absolutely dire for a lot longer than that!!  

[RedRaw]

25 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

 

So you've just picked out 2 results from our recent bad form.  Being placed in 7th, I mean, we haven't played well you're right.  We've fluked our way to 7th. 

Just out of interest, where do you expect us to be?  Do you really expect us to be at the tip of the league playing tika taka football?  If so, what manager would you like to replace LJ with which you would think would bring us that success?  

haha, sorry, got 7th in my head. 3points off playoffs. 

So you have conveniently ignored the fact I stated "Other than a few games, the way we have played over the past 18 months has regressed"..........This is not just about a bad patch of form, every team and manager will have those. My problem is with the coaching and tactical ability of LJ that has seen our style of football go from the heights of the period around the Man United game (when we actually did have an identity) to what we are watching now. This is not boring but effective football.......you could argue we played that in GJ's playoff season and I had no problem with that. This is tedious, boring, frustrating almost unwatchable football that is not getting results either. Once you go there, quite rightly you question the coach/coaching.

I don't expect us to be top of the table but for all the plaudits LJ was getting back in 17/18 for the way we were playing and considering the turnover of players since then, I expected us to be hitting the play-offs with some relatively good football by now. Football at AG over the past season and a half has been pretty dreadful and finishing one place or 2 points better off than the previous season is not going to gloss over that.

And please, why do LJ lovers always chuck the "well who would you have as manager" line, as if there is nobody better out there in the footballing world. That's not my job, that's for the likes of MA/SL etc to go out and research who they would want to replace LJ as and when they actually decide to do something about it

 

[RedRaw]

11 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Well only the other day against Cardiff you said "Today, regardless of the result actually, showed the gulf between us in terms of squad and what we are trying to build and how we are doing it.  We really have upgraded on Flint, Pack and Fatty Boom Boom.  Feels like we are going on different directions finally."

So what is it?

Maybe you should be asking Lee to explain......."Lee, albeit these were one-off performances, how have you gone from beating Cardiff and Fulham away to the absolute dross we have seen since?

Chances are he doesn't know himself which, as history tells us, see's him ramp up the tombola and the unexplainable formations, selections and substitutions.......hallmarks of a Coach that has lost his way and has probably taken us as far as he can.

 

 

[RedRaw]

7 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Whose quote is that? 

 That was me, posing the question!

[RedRaw]

34 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Phahaha, god, its been a long day haha. 

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I do understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong, but I feel that pulling the trigger now is far to soon.  Like I've said in this thread, if we go one another 4/5 games without a win, I could totally understand, but as it stands now, I can't see that happening with our planned recruitment. 

Only time will tell I guess. 

Agree. I also don't think it will happen yet as much as I believe it should. Now that they we are in negotiations for (yet) more players, it seems he will get some grace over the next few weeks and possibly until the end of the season, assuming, as you say, we don't lose the next 4/5 games........position then would be untenable.

 

[oldstandrobin]

57 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Phahaha, god, its been a long day haha. 

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I do understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong, but I feel that pulling the trigger now is far to soon.  Like I've said in this thread, if we go one another 4/5 games without a win, I could totally understand, but as it stands now, I can't see that happening with our planned recruitment. 

Only time will tell I guess. 

Badger, as a City supporter of going down the gate for 62+ years now, I take my hat off to your support of LJ. Like a lot of people, I was underwhelmed at his appointment but being a SC man you may understand why,however I back the team so therefore I back the coach but sometimes enough is enough. My mate and I have come from sponsoring the club in the 70's to now occupying sedentary seats in S19 and yet even he said to me the other day, 'think will give the ST a miss next year and why dont we go to the odd Prem game for a day out and watch some 'decent' football' How sad we must be thinking this way after all the years we have given this club, not only in support but also in sponsorship and following both our father's footpaths in going to AG.LJ wanted 3 windows, he has had about 8. I ran a company where if he was my Sales Director, he would have been gone a while ago. Its a results business so if as you say, he muffs the next 4/5 games, surely SL must face the facts that as supporters we are now facing and get FRESH blood in with a good command of the Championship or above.

[lenred]

1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

Well only the other day against Cardiff you said "Today, regardless of the result actually, showed the gulf between us in terms of squad and what we are trying to build and how we are doing it.  We really have upgraded on Flint, Pack and Fatty Boom Boom.  Feels like we are going on different directions finally."

So what is it?

Awwww going through my history, bless!

I very much stand by the fact that I believe we have much better footballers in the team than those players mentioned specifically in that post that were transferred to Cardiff from City (presume this post was after the Cardiff game - you tell me!) and also, at that point, that we were heading in a better direction than a recently relegated team who at that point were 14th when we were 6th.  Where did I say anything about the quality of football though in this post that you’ve raised from two months ago?!

[INCRED]

4 hours ago, Trueredsupporter said:

Can you badger describe what BCFCs identity is?

do you agree with posters Lee Johnsons football boring them is not a success?

Like you I am bored stiff with LJs style of football and have been fir a few seasons only hoping and convincing myself each game that it will get better surely. The truth is, it's getting worse and I cant be bothered to go anymore and put myself through it 

Why cant we play a similar style to Brentford, Norwich and a few other teams who don't have huge budgets? Because the head coach and his staff don't know how to?

[lenred]

6 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Don't patronise me because of your own opinion.  Opinions change, so its fine yours have since then, no need to get narky.  It was just interesting that you said things have been bad for 18 months, but clearly 8 weeks ago you were all rainbows and unicorns about what was going on.   

You are picking a fight where it’s not needed.  See you’ve already acknowledged your previously disingenuous comment about it being a ‘few days’ ago. Over 8 weeks ago in fact after a win against our main rivals who have traditionally got the better over us during my lifetime  so yes -that day was definitely a ‘rainbow and unicorn’ day - whatever that means.
 

Not really sure why you’ve decided to set me in your sights but if you care to keep going back through my history (Which you seem to enjoy weirdly - your prerogative though) you'll see that I have generally wanted LJ gone for a fair while - years, whilst acknowledging at times that I may have been previously wrong in that view when it looked as though he may have turned it around and trying to be fair in that reflection.  

[CityCiderEd]

2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

You don't have to play boring football to get there.  I'm saying, I don't care if we do play boring football to get there, like cardiff did.

That really isn't correct. Warnock assembled a big physical team that got the ball forward as quickly as they could to their front men.It wasn't slow and ponderous it was quite the opposite and the Cardiff fans loved it.It was only the so called 'purists'that labelled it route one and boring which is exactly what you are doing.

[Robbored]

18 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Wow, 62+ years.  Fairplay. 
 

Its funny as I was against his appointment, but now it seems I'm one of his biggest supporters.  My reasoning is, I just don't know who could do a better job.  I've been supporting city for 32 years, so half of the time you have, but I've seen so many managers come in, buy and fail.  The the next one comes in. I need 2 years.  Buy, fail.  Then the cycle repeats.  We are so close to getting it right, so close, imo. 

 

10 years longer than me..........

Anyway that’s not why I’m replying - up to a point I agree with your second paragraph - I was meh when LJ was appointed but willing to give him a chance and since then I’ve continued to remain neutral. Probably because I put great importance on SLs comments about how destabilising changing the mangers at any club is and that he wanted to establish stability at City. I realised that LJ was here for quite some time particularly  when City were flirting with DZ not long after LJ had taken over and despite that SL stood by him.

Your’re 100% right - we (LJ) are so close to getting it right.

Patience boys and girls................

[oldstandrobin]

27 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Wow, 62+ years.  Fairplay.  Its funny as I was against his appointment, but now it seems I'm one of his biggest supporters.  My reasoning is, I just don't know who could do a better job.  I've been supporting city for 32 years, so half of the time you have, but I've seen so many managers come in, buy and fail.  The the next one comes in. I need 2 years.  Buy, fail.  Then the cycle repeats.  We are so close to getting it right, so close, imo. 

 

I cant see how we are close to getting it right when he keeps 'tinkering' or as I see it constantly changing our formation. I played Sunday League for many years and although it wasn't the professional game, if our side changed 2/3 players a week I would have had no idea what we were trying to achieve with our individual skills ( I played right wing No 7 so basically ran like hell with the ball to the bye-line and crossed it.........seems too simple for some coaches !) The game is Simple. 11 v 11 so it shouldn't need the brain of Britain to get results. LJ has spent millions and millions, got 'some for the future' and still doesn't know his best team after 8 windows and nearly 4 years in charge. By the time we get to the Prem, the 'one's for the future will be drawing their pensions ! So sad for a City as large as Bristol, Superb Stadium, Excellent facilities, Bristol Owner but annual excuses that could be made into a best selling book !!

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, oldstandrobin said:

I cant see how we are close to getting it right when he keeps 'tinkering' or as I see it constantly changing our formation. I played Sunday League for many years and although it wasn't the professional game, if our side changed 2/3 players a week I would have had no idea what we were trying to achieve with our individual skills ( I played right wing No 7 so basically ran like hell with the ball to the bye-line and crossed it.........seems too simple for some coaches !) The game is Simple. 11 v 11 so it shouldn't need the brain of Britain to get results. LJ has spent millions and millions, got 'some for the future' and still doesn't know his best team after 8 windows and nearly 4 years in charge. By the time we get to the Prem, the 'one's for the future will be drawing their pensions ! So sad for a City as large as Bristol, Superb Stadium, Excellent facilities, Bristol Owner but annual excuses that could be made into a best selling book !!

I agree with a large part of your post, but query one, maybe 2 bits.

Agree, the game can be simple...but it's less so than it was IMO. To name 3 examples, false 9s, inverted wingers, or even full backs played on the wrong side show a significant change to even 20 years ago, when I first started getting properly aware of football. I do think a simple approach at good levels- and I include the Championship as a good level- could backfire.

Yes, we've spent millions- yes we have a great ground, facilities and owner- but so have a lot of clubs, a lot of clubs have some, a fair few have all- and a fair few of these have had it for longer than us, playing catchup in a sense.

However even in that context, should there be a more cohesive side, should he know his best team, should he have us playing more fluidly? Absolutely, hell yes!

[Cowshed]

47 minutes ago, INCRED said:

Like you I am bored stiff with LJs style of football and have been fir a few seasons only hoping and convincing myself each game that it will get better surely. The truth is, it's getting worse and I cant be bothered to go anymore and put myself through it 

Why cant we play a similar style to Brentford, Norwich and a few other teams who don't have huge budgets? Because the head coach and his staff don't know how to?

Do you consider the football Bristol City played in 2017 at its peak to be similar?

Its not a question of his staff because they act on Mr Johnson's instruction. It is a case of Mr Johnson did not want to and instead chose to pursue what are now multiple different styles.

 

[Fjmcity]

On 05/01/2020 at 09:59, maxjak said:

Another team were considered "Little Old", namely Bournemouth........theyv"e done OK in a stadium that holds around 11K.  Just need a plan and a decent coach?

With a billionaire obligarch with no interest in sustainability.

[Natchfever]

16 minutes ago, Fjmcity said:

With a billionaire obligarch with no interest in sustainability.

Fair comment and they wouldn't have pulled it off nowadays, although Eddie Howe is far better than what we have.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Do you consider the football Bristol City played in 2017 at its peak to be similar?

Its not a question of his staff because they act on Mr Johnson's instruction. It is a case of Mr Johnson did not want to and instead chose to pursue what are now multiple different styles.

 

Don't mind a Plan B, or variants within a Plan A...don't always have to stick rigidly to one and the same IMO.

I was praising aspects of his flexibility a while ago, but how it's gone is ridiculous. Possibly lacked depth or maybe he needed to upgrade the system, tweak it- not just the system the philosophy, to take it to the next level (necessity of player sales a factor though it is).

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, INCRED said:

Like you I am bored stiff with LJs style of football and have been fir a few seasons only hoping and convincing myself each game that it will get better surely. The truth is, it's getting worse and I cant be bothered to go anymore and put myself through it 

Why cant we play a similar style to Brentford, Norwich and a few other teams who don't have huge budgets? Because the head coach and his staff don't know how to?

Brentford an excellent example, Norwich a bit more varied IMO but get the overarching point.

I'm not convinced he can set us up to go at the play, to dictate the ball...they've not shown evidence of it, a possession dominant team we are not for a start.

[steviestevieneville]

4 hours ago, Badger08 said:

I suggest you read again. "We are a club that's identity is to play quality football, within the spending power that we have"

We don’t have a identity. Identity / philosophy is a defined way of playing throughout the club . A formation that the club identifies with. Signing players young , coaching them and selling on is a way of trying to compete with the big boys and ffp. It’s not a identity , it’s a way of trying to become sustainable . 
If we had a philosophy of play, then we would buy  young players to fit that system . They would playing in the under 23’s in that system to get ready for the first team or be ready to hit the ground running, as it would all be (as LJ would have us believe) “aligned”.

we don’t though. Only recently have we played 442, which apart from Eliasson doesn’t suit the rest of the squad . So we’ve signed wingers as in Nicky , O’dowda and more bizarrely Adelakun , but largely don’t play with wingers.

We signed, Szmodics and Palmer , mainly no10’s but don’t play a system to suit them largely .

We’ve  bought players with no joined up thinking in how we’re going to set up .

That is not a identity , it’s quite frankly rudderless . 
 

Also this , we’re only three points off the play offs. Yes we are , but at the start of this run we were fully entrenched in the play offs and a gap was opening between us and mid table. Not anymore.