Sad and embarrassed

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, lenred said:

With due respect are you saying that the club thought Webster was staying 100%?  I’d be shocked and not a little worried if they didn’t realise after his performances last year that we were going to struggle to keep him. 

And there in lies the problem for LJ or any coach. You get a player, recruit to compliment his attributes, and then he's sold from under your feet. Back to square one again.

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

There should always be another good player in the building. One players sale injury or loss of form should not mean the collapse of a teams football - Its identity. 

There is no plan. There is no model driving this. As you have pointed out yourself.

It is bullshit. 

The player to play under him is Taylor Moore.

You can't have a squad of players that are equal in quality throughout...it's not financially viable.

You aren't going to have a second Webster on the bench so to speak.

The model is to develop players and have experienced players integrated. The experienced players moved on eventually and the developed players taking their place. Finding a happy medium is a hard call.

It's flawed...always said it was. 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

[lenred]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

And there in lies the problem for LJ or any coach. You get a player, recruit to compliment his attributes, and then he's sold from under your feet. Back to square one again.

The player to play under him is Taylor Moore.

You can't have a squad of players that are equal in quality throughout...it's not financially viable.

You aren't going to have a second Webster on the bench so to speak.

The model is to develop players and have experienced players integrated. The experienced players moved on eventually and the developed players taking their place. Finding a happy medium is a hard call.

It's flawed...always said it was. 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

So I’ll say again - all teams run the risk of losing their better players up the food chain so it’s not a valid excuse to me. We are told that we have the systems and recruitment processes in place to negate any of these losses but we do not it seems. City must have known there was it was extremely likely that we would lose Webster but did not replace him adequately, which to me seems mightily strange if we were selling him to incoming players as a reason to join and also were looking to build a team around him. 

[steviestevieneville]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I totally agree.

And I've written posts recently about our recruitment being disjointed.

They find talented young players that they hope they can develop into what we want, or sell them at a profit.

Imo, we are a team of talented individuals that don't work consistently as a team. Palmer, Eliasson and Famara all being the stand outs. All talented in their own way...but trying to get those three to work together as a winning combination is a struggle...like oil and water.

A lad on twitter put up a montage of Palmer's great movement into space from yesterday's game. He gets the ball...where does Famara move to? To exactly the one position that's hardest for Palmer to find him. Not into Space at an angle, but in direct line and behind an opponent. Total misunderstanding between the two. One doing it correctly...the other not having a clue about correct movement to receive.

It's this type of recruitment that will slow the progress down imo.

Too true. I find it funny when fans applaud fam because he works hard. That’s a given for any player surely. His football intelligence is shocking. 

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, lenred said:

With due respect are you saying that the club thought Webster was staying 100%?  I’d be shocked and not a little worried if they didn’t realise after his performances last year that we were going to struggle to keep him. 

Don’t mind admitting I thought we’d “stupidly” want £20m, and nobody would be foolish enough to pay it.  Hence I thought he’d stay.

I was wrong.

Having seen the 18/19 accounts (which included Kelly’s sale), it was money needed to fund recruitment.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, lenred said:

So I’ll say again - all teams run the risk of losing their better players up the food chain so it’s not a valid excuse to me. We are told that we have the systems and recruitment processes in place to negate any of these losses but we do not it seems. City must have known there was it was extremely likely that we would lose Webster but did not replace him adequately, which to me seems mightily strange if we were selling him to incoming players as a reason to join and also were looking to build a team around him. 

My understanding is that LJ wanted a replacement for Webster but the club did not get him one. Then again there aren't many footballing centre backs of his standard around, hence Brighton paying so much for him. 

I was surprised we had little or no competition when we signed him from Ipswich. It was enough for me that the late Kevin Beattie was a big admirer of his.

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, lenred said:

So I’ll say again - all teams run the risk of losing their better players up the food chain so it’s not a valid excuse to me. We are told that we have the systems and recruitment processes in place to negate any of these losses but we do not it seems. City must have known there was it was extremely likely that we would lose Webster but did not replace him adequately, which to me seems mightily strange if we were selling him to incoming players as a reason to join and also were looking to build a team around him. 

How many Webster's do you know just sitting around kicking their heels and not under contract? It's not as simple as going shopping in the Supermarket. The system in place has a time frame...it will take more years to come to fruition imo.

Morrell, Bakinson, Vyner, Semenyo, Walsh, Moore, Massengo etc etc...all players that are on the pathway.

11 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Too true. I find it funny when fans applaud fam because he works hard. That’s a given for any player surely. His football intelligence is shocking. 

He just doesn't suit our playing style.

I feel for him in many ways. Big heart, trys his best, but his best isn't what we need. Imo his inclusion started to downhill spiral in what we were trying to achieve on the pitch. He was brought in to add physicality. Then they tried to develop him into the type of player he naturally isn't.

[cidered abroad]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

What attitude? Being realistic...or demanding because it doesn't suit your timeline?

Listen to yourself... Just because you've supported City all these years, doesn't make it that Promotion has to come now, just because you're running out of patience. Life doesn't work like that...it may never come. We all want to shag Kylie, but however hard you try, the majority are gonna be left disappointed.

Kinnel... we've got an owner that is doing a lot for this Club. Many positives. And we seem to have a bunch of moaning old gits because they aren't getting what they want quick enough. Some of you deserve the Gas tbh...so ungrateful and entitled.

We are half way through the season...let's see where we are at the end before throwing your toys out the pram.

I get more frustrated, by some of our moaning entitled fan base. First to jump around and celebrate when things are going well...but always the first to moan and complain and not get behind the team when things are going bad. It's always easy to moan and ask to get rid, rather that try and support. We are a typical sing when we are winning fan base. Always reactionary....rather than trying to be positive and help try to turn things round.

Good job we've got an owner and coaching team fighting to win, even when things aren't going well and mistakes made. If it was run by half our fan base, they'd sit around moaning, asking everyone else around them to sort out the problem for them. Then take the applause when it does turn round.

It's a good job we've got a fantastic away SUPPORT...

How about being realistic and realising every team is in the same boat. Get behind the team and stop being entitled and moaning every time there's a blip.

This forum is so quiet when we are winning...yet totally implodes when we have a poor run. Says a lot tbh.

I've heard numerous times this season, fans saying words along the lines, that if we don't finish top 6, then this season and LJ is a failure. Total madness. And the more you hear it, you start to wonder what you're surrounded by. 

From my experience...a bunch of entitled moaning old gits, that want promotion now, as time is running out, and it's not happening quick enough for them...sad...but true.

So supporters like me are "entitled moaning old gits"! Sarcastic xxxxxxx!

You can come across as a know it all who is the only one writing the truth!

In SEVENTY years supporting City we have won two league titles. We have been out of the top tier for forty years, while everyone else of any size has been there.

We finally get a financial benefactor, a new stadium, some of the best footballers to have pulled on the red shirt. But we are still little Bristol City who bounce between leagues two and three! 

Why? Because we are not prepared to employ coaching staff with some positive experience of getting to the top tier and then a reasonable shout at staying there for a while.

You can be happy with what we are but I and many more are NOT. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

My understanding is that LJ wanted a replacement for Webster but the club did not get him one. Then again there aren't many footballing centre backs of his standard around, hence Brighton paying so much for him. 

I was surprised we had little or no competition when we signed him from Ipswich. It was enough for me that the late Kevin Beattie was a big admirer of his.

I really thought we’d go and get Hector (who’s just completed a move to Fulham, which didn’t get done in time).

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I really thought we’d go and get Hector (who’s just completed a move to Fulham, which didn’t get done in time).

Yes, I did wonder if he was the one LJ wanted.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

And there in lies the problem for LJ or any coach. You get a player, recruit to compliment his attributes, and then he's sold from under your feet. Back to square one again.

 

No it is not back to square one if the team has identity. There will be another individual recruited or developed with the key skills to fit the team need. That individual will be versed in how the team plays - The model Bristol City does not have will see players in an environment that trains them via specified training allied to role.

This above cannot happen when a team uses six formations a season as Bristol City have - There is no identity. There is no model of play.

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

You can't have a squad of players that are equal in quality throughout...it's not financially viable.

 

There will always be players with more craft than others in the chain. Note chain. Bristol City isn't due to its fluxing nature. Bristol City has a large squad which you criticise as being unbalanced. It is because there is real plan guiding it. The team is not being recruited to an identity. It has changing styles not style. 

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

You aren't going to have a second Webster on the bench so to speak.

 

And? So what! If there is this meticulous process identifying recruits and this Modern coach developing players all with the right dna there should be  players with similar skills sets for the teams identity. That basic standard should apply for every position judged against Lee Johnsons and Mark Ashton own statements. Its eight windows now fifty plus players and tens of millions spent.  

 

20 minutes ago, spudski said:

The model is to develop players and have experienced players integrated. 

 

No model has six formations. Change after change. Players cannot be integrated into that cycle. There is no model of play. 

It is bullshit. 

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No it is not back to square one if the team has identity. There will be another individual recruited or developed with the key skills to fit the team need. That individual will be versed in how the team plays - The model Bristol City does not have will see players in an environment that trains them via specified training allied to role.

This above cannot happen when a team uses six formations a season as Bristol City have - There is no identity. There is no model of play.

There will always be players with more craft than others in the chain. Note chain. Bristol City isn't due to its fluxing nature. Bristol City has a large squad which you criticise as being unbalanced. It is because there is real plan guiding it. The team is not being recruited to an identity. It has changing styles not style. 

And? So what! If there is this meticulous process identifying recruits and this Modern coach developing players all with the right dna there should be  players with similar skills sets for the teams identity. That basic standard should apply for every position judged against Lee Johnsons and Mark Ashton own statements. Its eight windows now fifty plus players and tens of millions spent.  

 

No model has six formations. Change after change. Players cannot be integrated into that cycle. There is no model of play. 

It is bullshit. 

Blimey!  A disagreement between two of otib heavyweights (in terms of knowledge that is)  

First time I’ve seen it happen.............

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I really thought we’d go and get Hector (who’s just completed a move to Fulham, which didn’t get done in time).

He was certainly the obvious choice to me 

[Redtucks]

6 hours ago, INCRED said:

You look at the teams who have got promoted in recent seasons and they play an attacking dynamic style of football which is a million miles away from watch I see 

 

Do you include Colin's Cardiff in that?

 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No it is not back to square one if the team has identity. There will be another individual recruited or developed with the key skills to fit the team need. That individual will be versed in how the team plays - The model Bristol City does not have will see players in an environment that trains them via specified training allied to role.

This above cannot happen when a team uses six formations a season as Bristol City have - There is no identity. There is no model of play.

There will always be players with more craft than others in the chain. Note chain. Bristol City isn't due to its fluxing nature. Bristol City has a large squad which you criticise as being unbalanced. It is because there is real plan guiding it. The team is not being recruited to an identity. It has changing styles not style. 

And? So what! If there is this meticulous process identifying recruits and this Modern coach developing players all with the right dna there should be  players with similar skills sets for the teams identity. That basic standard should apply for every position judged against Lee Johnsons and Mark Ashton own statements. Its eight windows now fifty plus players and tens of millions spent.  

 

No model has six formations. Change after change. Players cannot be integrated into that cycle. There is no model of play. 

It is bullshit. 

Funnily in a round about way, you are agreeing with me.

Read my posts.

We recruit talented players and then try to develop them into our methods. Our methods are to be flexible in different formations. LJ has said that himself. He buys versatile players that can adapt to different positions and situations on the pitch. That's our method.

I agree it doesn't always work.

You can be sure if we had and Identity and it wasn't working, and we kept losing and not changing, fans would be asking where plan b was.

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

My understanding is that LJ wanted a replacement for Webster but the club did not get him one. Then again there aren't many footballing centre backs of his standard around, hence Brighton paying so much for him. 

I was surprised we had little or no competition when we signed him from Ipswich. It was enough for me that the late Kevin Beattie was a big admirer of his.

That’s fair then, but it contradicts what has been previously on here said that LJ wanted to build a team around him.  No doubt he did in an ideal world, but he and the recruitment team must’ve known that there would be big interest in him given the season he had. In fact before he was sold - in late July - he stated  ‘Webby has done fantastically well, but the market is the market. The value of the player, given a lot of the stuff that goes on in the domino effect, is always there.”  So he knew that he would be sold at least 4 weeks before the window closed, and I would suggest probably earlier let’s be fair.  So, plenty of time to get a replacement in, which I would presume our recruitment team would take care of given that we are told they are always ready to provide replacements as required due to their constant work. Not to the same level unless we were very lucky - agreed - as AW was very special - but someone with similar attributes whom could still be used in the system that LJ wanted to build a team around. As it was we cobbled it together with Williams in the end and for all his strengths is not a replacement for AW.  

[steviestevieneville]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Funnily in a round about way, you are agreeing with me.

Read my posts.

We recruit talented players and then try to develop them into our methods. Our methods are to be flexible in different formations. LJ has said that himself. He buys versatile players that can adapt to different positions and situations on the pitch. That's our method.

I agree it doesn't always work.

You can be sure if we had and Identity and it wasn't working, and we kept losing and not changing, fans would be asking where plan b was.

Surely you can still have a plan b within a playing philosophy . The current chopping and changing of systems and squad is ridiculous 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Blimey!  A disagreement between two of otib heavyweights (in terms of knowledge that is)  

First time I’ve seen it happen.............

Cowshed thinks in terms like no other forum member. I've worked with people like him. It's a struggle to get your point across when they think in numbers and analytical ways. Some learn from visual...some from words and description in an in-depth manner.

No disrespect to him...I respect him...but many of his posts I have to read twice to understand them, as they are in a language straight from the FA manuals...which are right gobbledygook :laugh:

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Surely you can still have a plan b within a playing philosophy . The current chopping and changing of systems and squad is ridiculous 

Oh I do agree...but we don't carry out plan A very well to start with. We continually change throughout a game...it's ever changing. We are reactionary rather than Pro active.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

4 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Surely you can still have a plan b within a playing philosophy . The current chopping and changing of systems and squad is ridiculous 

...but it’s what the fans have called for on many occasions.  For me Eliasson may be the problem, not the answer.  I thought we were set up to play three at the back this season, but it feels as though Lee has bowed to pressure to play Eliasson, who I agree has to be played in a 442.  Now he is in the invidious position of either building the whole shape around Eliasson or alienating the fans who constantly demand his inclusion.

Mind you, it seems that Jurgen Klopp can chop and change without any noticeable diminution in quality... 

[Cowshed]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

Funnily in a round about way, you are agreeing with me.

 

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch. What is the game plan? It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it. Defensively..I can see it. Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. What the hell are we doing in training? the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

All from a cursory look at one of your posts. You have been posting similar for months. Criticising aspects of recruitment, coaching, players and Leadership..

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

Cowshed thinks in terms like no other forum member. I've worked with people like him. It's a struggle to get your point across when they think in numbers and analytical ways. Some learn from visual...some from words and description in an in-depth manner.

No disrespect to him...I respect him...but many of his posts I have to read twice to understand them, as they are in a language straight from the FA manuals...which are right gobbledygook

And because of my training via the FA and my mentor teaching EUFA A licence I will understand Mr Johnsons coach speech. There have been times I have defended and attempted to explain the what and why's behind his statements.

But I will maintain because of my understanding of the theoretical, the FA terms (there are few manuals) I will continue to maintain Mr Johnson is making it up as he goes along - There is no big plan, project, model of play, identity and other description guiding Bristol City's football … So yes I widely agree with your posts. 

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

...but it’s what the fans have called for on many occasions.  For me Eliasson may be the problem, not the answer.  I thought we were set up to play three at the back this season, but it feels as though Lee has bowed to pressure to play Eliasson, who I agree has to be played in a 442.  Now he is in the invidious position of either building the whole shape around Eliasson or alienating the fans who constantly demand his inclusion.

Mind you, it seems that Jurgen Klopp can chop and change without any noticeable diminution in quality... 

Liverpool obviously play 433 (or very close variant) throughout the club. I suspect players know exactly what to do in a given position.  I suspect some of them are good enough and intelligent enough to pkay more than one position, and know exactly what  is expected in that position.

[steviestevieneville]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

...but it’s what the fans have called for on many occasions.  For me Eliasson may be the problem, not the answer.  I thought we were set up to play three at the back this season, but it feels as though Lee has bowed to pressure to play Eliasson, who I agree has to be played in a 442.  Now he is in the invidious position of either building the whole shape around Eliasson or alienating the fans who constantly demand his inclusion.

Mind you, it seems that Jurgen Klopp can chop and change without any noticeable diminution in quality... 

Klopp plays 433 and sticks to it . I think Eliasson can play in a 433-4231 not just 442 but yes it is a problem. That’s why I see no joined up thinking in our recruitment . We sign wingers but don’t generally play with wingers . We sign no10’s but don’t play a number 10 . Baffling to say the least 

[steviestevieneville]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Liverpool obviously play 433 (or very close variant) throughout the club. I suspect players know exactly what to do in a given position.  I suspect some of them are good enough and intelligent enough to pkay more than one position, and know exactly what  is expected in that position.

Exactly what should be happening with us. Obviously the players are much better but the playing philosophy should be the same. I don’t attend any u23 -u18 games but does any one know what system we play . It all seems very off the cuff 

[Cidre Monita]

The crux of the issue at BCFC would appear rather simple. It is not about promotion, or even a top 6 place. Those desires and demands amongst fans occurred when we were in L1. That is not the driving sentiment at the moment.  It is the complete lack of a coherent strategy to deliver a step change in footballing philosophy and identity . There is no clear strategy or conviction to deliver one. It is a moving target , from the coaching, tactics, recruitment, youth development through to delivery. The verbal description of what we are trying to achieve is not matched by facts. The bull shit levels and lack of accountability are  notable. 

Both LJ and MA are directly responsible for this , and both require changing before further damage to the club is done. They have wasted millions of income, and millions of the club owners investments in a haphazard and poorly executed manner, to the extent, no one is able to define who we are, what we are, and what we are aiming to achieve. 

As MA and LJ have shown over 4 years to be lacking the ability , excellence, and vision to build the club to the desire and dream of SL, it is now time to recruit a team that are able to make that step change. They have had their time. Again, it is not about promotion or top 6, it is total lack of strategy and a total conviction to that strategy that is missing. They have been making it up as they go along. Time for the bull shit and comfort club to stop.  

[Cowshed]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Liverpool obviously play 433 (or very close variant) throughout the club. I suspect players know exactly what to do in a given position.  I suspect some of them are good enough and intelligent enough to pkay more than one position, and know exactly what  is expected in that position.

The team effectively and squad plays and trains to one formation or close to it and has been for years the understanding becomes integrated throughout the XI and squad. Thus the squad has a deep collective knowledge and understanding of the expectations of 4-3-3 and its roles. By having one formation there are less variables to consider and learn for the squad leading to more of the underlined behaviours.

Versus

Having more than one formation the variables have to be increased and the desired behaviour becomes less likely.

[spudski]

44 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I watch us play and literally have no idea as to what we are trying to achieve on the pitch. What is the game plan? It literally looks like 11 individuals trying to do their best, but with no idea as to go about it. Defensively..I can see it. Offensively... it's make it up as you go along. We seem to try and play every conceivable type of football during the duration of a game. And hoping something comes off. Nothing looks planned. What the hell are we doing in training? the squad still look clueless as to what they are meant to be doing offensively.

All from a cursory look at one of your posts. You have been posting similar for months. Criticising aspects of recruitment, coaching, players and Leadership..

And because of my training via the FA and my mentor teaching EUFA A licence I will understand Mr Johnsons coach speech. There have been times I have defended and attempted to explain the what and why's behind his statements.

But I will maintain because of my understanding of the theoretical, the FA terms (there are few manuals) I will continue to maintain Mr Johnson is making it up as he goes along - There is no big plan, project, model of play, identity and other description guiding Bristol City's football … So yes I widely agree with your posts. 

You are right...I have been critical of recruitment, structure etc etc. However... as I've said in previous posts recently, I've tried to look at the reasons why. In these posts I've given my reasons why I think we are struggling to get some cohesion. It's a multitude of reasons.

I also understand LJs coach talk.

Unfortunately a lot of terminology used is not terminology that is easy to digest. Especially if used when explaining to fans. I try to break things down into layman's terms.  

What is very valid, are footballers are generally not highly educated. You start using some of the FA terminology with footballers, and you end up spending more time explaining what that terminology means to them. Wasted time and energy.

The manuals have not been written in a way that is fluid and easy to digest. It's something that foreign coaches have commented on as a negative.

[sh1t_ref_again]

What has happened? You only have to look back on here how positive things were when we had only lost a couple of games all season, we were in playoffs still had our best players out injured and about to come back, but since then it has gone wrong, confidence has evaporated and fans very toxic

Nadgy - looks a fraction of the player we seen in the 1st game when he arrived

Massengo - looks frightened and light weight

Kallas - has been good but also making some real errors that you would not expect from a player like that

Dasiliva - looks frightened to make a challenge

Brownhill - has been very poor for the last 4 games

Palmer - was very good yesterday, but appalling in the games before being dropped from the squad

Bentley - was awesome now making errors 

Our passing has become too slow and a total lack of movement off the ball, are our players taking a while to get back up to speed, or still carrying an injury? the LJ haters will point to tactics and coaching it out of them, well I am sure they are never told pass it slower or don't move into space. Some will point to they are LJ's players he signed them, don't remember many negatives post about the signings, many more about how did we get them and how much there were going to be worth. Perhaps point the finger at LJ having a go at players poor performance. Or perhaps as fans we need to look inward, is particularly AG becoming a place the players are not enjoying playing as they are waiting for the fans to be on their back with the slightest of errors, particularly as we have a very young squad, therefore just playing the safe easy ball. I only hope the players do not read this forum, but sure they must read some of the social media comments, some of the bashing is incredible after a bad game.

Lot of talk of identity, I started a thread earlier in the season saying our tatic now seems to be we have become a counter attacking team, when we tried playing the high constant press the other year, it was not sustainable, so I think we started to surrender position and pick our time to press, but you need the right strikes for this and with not getting our man in the summer and Afobe injury has affected this.

Whilst LJ has its faults and does get it wrong, be it selection, formation or tactics so do all managers, but some of the nonsense that has been spouted, facts given (guess its fact if someone says it enough on here) the blame game for everything falling on LJ's shoulders has been OTT. Whilst I am not happy with the way we are playing, I don't see getting rid of now to be for the best, the right signings could get us back on track, but if the season starts to look like playoffs are unlikely then remove and have time to consider and bring in a replacement before the season ends to give him time to assess and sort.

[Trueredsupporter]

why isn't high pressing sustainable?? other teams do it. Leeds are.

[sh1t_ref_again]

1 minute ago, Trueredsupporter said:

why isn't high pressing sustainable?? other teams do it. Leeds are.

That was also the reason given for why Leeds fell away last year, but I guess can be achievable with enough depth of quality in the squad

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, Trueredsupporter said:

why isn't high pressing sustainable?? other teams do it. Leeds are.

 

15 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

That was also the reason given for why Leeds fell away last year, but I guess can be achievable with enough depth of quality in the squad

Their 18 doesn’t change much game to game:

Will be interesting to see if they do blow up.