Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

Top Robin

Monday....decision day!?

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, NickJ said:

That's not entirely correct Harry.

If people thought he was doing a good job, they would warm to him, as so many did with Cotterill, who was hated by many when he came here and left as a hero even if it did go a bit wrong at the end, because his achievements were recognized.

In my opinion Johnson is not a credible manager as he does not give the impression of being a leader that could command respect. 

The "Johnsonisms" thread is a funny example of Johnson using ostensibly clever sounding phrases which are in reality cringeworthy idiocies which mean nothing. I'm sure some players will earnestly lap it up but equally older and/or wiser heads will probably just think it's a bit of a joke.

I maintain that the alleged year on year improvement is in spite of Johnson not because of him. Given the amount of money spent on players and the woeful boring performances of late, I would seriously challenge the suggestion that he's earned any right to continue as manager.

 

Cotterill had no history with our fan base. Many didn’t want him but there wasn’t the level of hatred that lots already held for LJ. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Harry said:

Cotterill had no history with our fan base. Many didn’t want him but there wasn’t the level of hatred that lots already held for LJ. 

I haven't met a City fan who hates LJ. Yes, there are a few on here who keep saying they never liked him but that's a big step down from 'hatred'.

I thought he was a very poor choice as manager, done for all the wrong reasons ( certainly from a fans' point of view) but certainly didn't dislike him personally.

Cotterill had a far more vitriolic reception as manager on here than LJ did.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I haven't met a City fan who hates LJ. Yes, there are a few on here who keep saying they never liked him but that's a big step down from 'hatred'.

I thought he was a very poor choice as manager, done for all the wrong reasons ( certainly from a fans' point of view) but certainly didn't dislike him personally.

Cotterill had a far more vitriolic reception as manager on here than LJ did.

Plenty elsewhere...

AB193B6D-15D9-4DF0-820F-E0707A78C577.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

Plenty elsewhere...

AB193B6D-15D9-4DF0-820F-E0707A78C577.jpeg

Plenty? One person?

I expect many agree with Luke Bray's comment.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Plenty? One person?

I expect many agree with Luke Bray's comment.

I’ve seen plenty of similar comments on social media over the past few weeks. I’ve used that one as an example......especially when no one has called him out for saying it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I haven't met a City fan who hates LJ. Yes, there are a few on here who keep saying they never liked him but that's a big step down from 'hatred'.

I thought he was a very poor choice as manager, done for all the wrong reasons ( certainly from a fans' point of view) but certainly didn't dislike him personally.

Cotterill had a far more vitriolic reception as manager on here than LJ did.

I said in my previous post that there is a significant minority of fans who didn’t like LJ as a player. I also commented therein that some of that dislike does go as far as hatred - only some. 
I’ve seen it. You may be lucky enough not to have encountered it, but I’ve seen it. 

Edited by Harry
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Harry said:

I said in my previous post that there is a significant minority of fans who didn’t like LJ as a player. I also commented therein that some of that dislike does go as far as hatred - only some. 
I’ve seen it. You may be lucky enough not to have encountered it, but I’ve seen it. 

OK, I saw it with Cotterill on here when he was appointed, and those posters never changed their minds.

It's not unique to LJ, or indeed City, some fans at every club dislike the manager whoever it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Okay thanks, I'll look it up again...now IF he was sacked before the Tuesday game vs Preston then yeah that makes sense, but it's a bit of a disconnect for me given I clearly remember us losing to Preston, Cotts rowing with a fan when he came off the pitch, some sort of mutual flak, then him being sacked and Pemberton in charge vs Boro...Wes Burns last minute winner?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35229562

The text thing rings a bell, yep.

Pretty sure we lost to PNE on a Tuesday night, Cotts had an argument with a fan.

He did the pre-match presser for Boro, went home. Then received a text from Dawe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35319397

14th January 2016.  A Thursday!!  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

OK, I saw it with Cotterill on here when he was appointed, and those posters never changed their minds.

It's not unique to LJ, or indeed City, some fans at every club dislike the manager whoever it is.

But the difference is the history. 
Yes, fans do or don’t like managerial appointments. But with LJ there was already a historical dislike for him amongst some fans from when he was a player. And that group of fans will never give him any rope. 
 

This is undeniable. Many fans didn’t like LJ as player and will never accept him as a manager. Absolutely undeniable. 

Edited by Harry
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Harry said:

But the difference is the history. 
Yes, fans do or don’t like managerial appointments. But with LJ there was already a historical dislike for him amongst some fans from when he was a player. And that group of fans will never give him any rope. 

Yep, but all you're doing is giving is a reason why a few fans were/are against him.

There are reasons why every managerial appointment at every club divides supporters.

Many others were against him because they simply saw him as a dreadful appointment who would never have got the job at another Championship club at the time.

Most of either opinion would make their feelings known at the beginning but then judge him on the job he does.

As opposed to Cotterill who never got any credit from some despite his undoubted triumphs.

Edited by Nogbad the Bad
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, but all you're doing is giving is a reason why a few fans were/are against him.

There are reasons why every managerial appointment at every club divides supporters.

Many others were against him because they simply saw him as a dreadful appointment who would never have got the job at another Championship club at the time.

Most of either opinion would make their feelings known at the beginning but then judge him on the job he does.

As opposed to Cotterill who never got any credit from some despite his undoubted triumphs.

That is pretty fair.

Conscious and unconscious bias for and against both.

For many, Cotts was a long ball, arrogant ****t who many hadn’t really seen any of his sides play, but formed that opinion anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I doubt Lee's position is even being considered by anybody at the club.

The continued talk about the poor standard of football is of course subjective, and isn't continually as bad as people would have you believe (although I didn't go to Millwall, Blackburn or Brentford home games as my funds were at an all time low).

And as things stand we are still play-off candidates.  If we get our form back, it is reasonable to suggest we could win 2 of the next 3 games, and be right up in the mix.

Unless City start getting hammered every week, I cannot see that Lee will be at risk this season.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

As opposed to Cotterill who never got any credit from some despite his undoubted triumphs.

LJ will never get any credit from some for the positive work he has been part of here.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Honestly, I doubt Lee's position is even being considered by anybody at the club.

The continued talk about the poor standard of football is of course subjective, and isn't continually as bad as people would have you believe (although I didn't go to Millwall, Blackburn or Brentford home games as my funds were at an all time low).

And as things stand we are still play-off candidates.  If we get our form back, it is reasonable to suggest we could win 2 of the next 3 games, and be right up in the mix.

Unless City start getting hammered every week, I cannot see that Lee will be at risk this season.

Bloody hell you are up and down like a ******* yo-yo. Last week you said his position was becoming untenable? The week before you issued a rallying call. I can't keep up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Honestly, I doubt Lee's position is even being considered by anybody at the club.

The continued talk about the poor standard of football is of course subjective, and isn't continually as bad as people would have you believe (although I didn't go to Millwall, Blackburn or Brentford home games as my funds were at an all time low).

 

😂

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BCFC Grim said:

Bloody hell you are up and down like a ******* yo-yo. Last week you said his position was becoming untenable? The week before you issued a rallying call. I can't keep up.

.....at least he admits to not watching certain games, unlike some on here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Honestly, I doubt Lee's position is even being considered by anybody at the club.

The continued talk about the poor standard of football is of course subjective, and isn't continually as bad as people would have you believe (although I didn't go to Millwall, Blackburn or Brentford home games as my funds were at an all time low).

And as things stand we are still play-off candidates.  If we get our form back, it is reasonable to suggest we could win 2 of the next 3 games, and be right up in the mix.

Unless City start getting hammered every week, I cannot see that Lee will be at risk this season.

I bet you like boring water and a ham and cheese sandwich in your meal deal 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BCFC Grim said:

Bloody hell you are up and down like a ******* yo-yo. Last week you said his position was becoming untenable? The week before you issued a rallying call. I can't keep up.

Good point, I felt last week that his position might be untenable, mainly because of his volatile reaction to the Brentford manager, and the interesting Hand of R'od thread on OTIB, but in the cold light of day I doubt his post is under threat in the eyes of the club's board and the owner.

I do change my mind quite often though ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a season ticket the year it all looked so good, stopped going towards the end of that campaign and have only been a few times since. But in those games I have witnessed is the most boring football ive ever seen, no intensity, no plan, pass it sideways and backwards to then hit it long to Fam (he has his critics for sure, but doesnt get a great amount of service in this current set up). Why we dont go with 4-2-3-1 beyond me, that way we could get Palmer and Eliasson in the team together. The team is chopped and changed every game so no wonder there is no cohesion. Its honestly beyond a joke with how much we are spending on our current squad that we have these runs of such poor form. That has to come from the top, to have such long periods of poor results is a LJ trait that will never leave him!

 

He has to go for us to progress as a club. Give a decent championship manager the money he has invested and we would be challenging top 2 imho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That is pretty fair.

Conscious and unconscious bias for and against both.

For many, Cotts was a long ball, arrogant ****t who many hadn’t really seen any of his sides play, but formed that opinion anyway. 

Sure, I didn't know that much about SC (apart from his record at other clubs) but was 100% behind him from the first interview on the official site..

Inspirational, business like, and a man with a mission that you had every confidence he'd achieve. Immediately likeable imo too.

Struck me as the ideal man for City at the time.

Edited by Nogbad the Bad
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, but all you're doing is giving is a reason why a few fans were/are against him.

There are reasons why every managerial appointment at every club divides supporters.

Many others were against him because they simply saw him as a dreadful appointment who would never have got the job at another Championship club at the time.

Most of either opinion would make their feelings known at the beginning but then judge him on the job he does.

As opposed to Cotterill who never got any credit from some despite his undoubted triumphs.

It’s an undeniable difference. 
I wasn’t in favour of Cotterill but once here I was behind him and I now look back on his tenure as a success and I give him full credit for that. 
I know lots of people weren’t for SC but now happily acclaim him. 
LJ is a totally different ball game. There was an historical dislike for him and those who held bad feelings to him as a player will always be against him. I think even if LJ led us to the Prem, these people will still be unhappy with him. It’s ingrained. I’m amazed anyone would not agree with this - it’s quite quite obvious and not exactly been suppressed by those people. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s an undeniable difference. 
I wasn’t in favour of Cotterill but once here I was behind him and I now look back on his tenure as a success and I give him full credit for that. 
I know lots of people weren’t for SC but now happily acclaim him. 
LJ is a totally different ball game. There was an historical dislike for him and those who held bad feelings to him as a player will always be against him. I think even if LJ led us to the Prem, these people will still be unhappy with him. It’s ingrained. I’m amazed anyone would not agree with this - it’s quite quite obvious and not exactly been suppressed by those people. 

I don't think it matters why a small minority are against a manager at the start, or why a small minority may never change their minds.

You say you went on to give credit to SC, others didn't. Did that change mean you didn't still dislike him personally?

Some may have changed their minds with LJ, others not - they have less reason to perhaps?

Surely the reason most fans were against LJ's appointment was outright frustration because they thought it was a poor one, not because of a residual dislike of the individual?

 

Edited by Nogbad the Bad
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is that ever since the internet became a thing, every single City manager has been pilloried on this and similar forums, sometimes justifiably, sometimes for the most bizarre reasons, some close to the mark, some totally made up, often by people smarting from a recent defeat and fuelled by too many ciders. Allegedly ....

John Ward: Ran out of ideas.

Benny Lennartsson; Didn't know English football. Stupid cap. 

Tony Pulis: Ex Gas. Welsh. Boring football.

Tony Fawthrop etc: Who?

Danny Wilson: Presided over a drinking culture. Underachiever.

Brian Tinnion: The cheap option. Inexperienced.

Gary Johnson: Conference manager. Lost the dressing room.

Steve Coppell: Should have refused to sign David James after being forced to do so, at gunpoint, by SL.

Keith Millen: The even cheaper than Tinnion option.

Derek McInnes: Inexperienced in England. Over reliance on Scottish players.

Sean O'Driscoll: Borderline personality disorder. Sniffed a lot.

Steve Cotterill: Alleged hoof ball merchant. Stroppy. Used wet look hair gel.

Lee Johnson: Gary's son. Small in stature. Uses unfamiliar words.

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

COYR.

  • Like 13
  • Flames 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Redandproud said:

LJ Is NOT taking us any further, look at the last 4 seasons, got us into the playoff positions then we drop away, LJ has taken us as far as his experience has, its time for a change, someone with more experience of championship or Premier league, BUT, as stated, I think LANDSDOWN doesn't want to admit he was wrong, and pay wages for a more experienced manager to take us further, we're getting in the same situation as we were when GJ was manager, he lost the dressing room and players are not playing for him, 

So if you think we're under-achieving you obviously think we should be in the Premier League. At what point would you be happy, 20th, top half or Champions League winners?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dave L said:

The truth is that ever since the internet became a thing, every single City manager has been pilloried on this and similar forums, sometimes justifiably, sometimes for the most bizarre reasons, some close to the mark, some totally made up, often by people smarting from a recent defeat and fuelled by too many ciders.

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

COYR.

Aint that the truth.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I don't think it matters why a small minority are against a manager at the start, or why a small minority may never change their minds.

You say you went on to give credit to SC, others didn't. Did that change mean you didn't still dislike him personally?

Some may have changed their minds with LJ, others not - they have less reason to perhaps?

Surely the reason most fans were against LJ's appointment was outright frustration because they thought it was a poor one, not because of a residual dislike of the individual?

 

With all due respect Noggers (and believe me, I like you as a contributor on this forum) in this case you have your head in the clouds. 
There are lots of fans who have always and will always dislike LJ purely based on their opinion of him when he was a player here. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Harry said:

But the difference is the history. 
Yes, fans do or don’t like managerial appointments. But with LJ there was already a historical dislike for him amongst some fans from when he was a player. And that group of fans will never give him any rope. 
 

This is undeniable. Many fans didn’t like LJ as player and will never accept him as a manager. Absolutely undeniable. 

I never liked him as a player, for me he never did a lot. Rarely was a standout player, but on the other hand, rarely had a complete stinker. For me was a very average player, and some of the stick he got then, was uncalled for and was only because of who the manager was. I agree that some people don't like him for the same reasons, and never will.

As a coach/manager, I was sceptical on his appointment, but over time he did win me over. He has done a decent job, and we have improved every season. The runs and his comments/criticism of certain players have become tedious though, along with the crap football we are currently playing. I've now gone back on my opinion of him, and think it's time for him to go. 

Currently there seems to be a few groups of supporters:

Group 1: Hate LJ, have never liked him and never will. He will never do anything to win them over, and is the devil incarnate.

Group 2: The group I find myself in - didn't like him (or were indifferent towards him), did like him, now don't.

Group 3: Love LJ and are firmly in the "get behind him and he will take us into the Premiership" brigade. He is the longterm appointment, and won't be going anywhere.

Currently I think the fanbase is split into the 3 categories above. I don't honestly think that the board are even contemplating his position at the moment, and that's what is irking group 1, and possibly some of group 2.

Personally whilst we are still within touching distance of this season's target (playoffs), I don't think he's going anywhere. Does the board take action now to give someone new a chance whilst we are still within touching distance, and in an open transfer window, or leave it until later and make do with LJ's squad? I don't honestly think that they know 100% what they want to do (as a collective group). Of course we all know that SL/JL will make the final decision over that anyway, regardless of whether they agree with the majority of the board or not.

I think the only way he will leave any time soon, is if another club wants to take a chance on him, and that's why he has such a long contract - to protect the club and it's "asset". Currently though, I very much doubt anyone will want to take him on during one of his runs which he has become famous for. Even the Quest team call him streaky Lee!!

I'm currently of the opinion that nothing is going to change, and we will just plod along until Lee finds a combination of things to work again. We'll see if we make the playoffs, and if we don't then he will be sacked. If we do make it, then success or not, we will "go again" next season with him at the helm.

With Pulis, many hated him. Wilson, and Johnson Snr were given time, and most fans agreed that that was the right thing to do, and were disposed of when the time was right. Millen, Tinnion and Cotterill had ran their course, and most again agreed they had to go when they did. O'Driscoll and Mcinnes, again the time was right, although some will say had their work cut out from day 1 with the constraints they had at the time. SOD is part of the reason we have the system we currently do though....

I'm not sure that in recent memory one man has divided the fan base so much as Johnson Jnr. The arguments I feel, will go on and on long until after he goes.

Edited by Taz
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dave L said:

The truth is that ever since the internet became a thing, every single City manager has been pilloried on this and similar forums, sometimes justifiably, sometimes for the most bizarre reasons, some close to the mark, some totally made up, often by people smarting from a recent defeat and fuelled by too many ciders. 

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

 

Excellent summation of your average football fan Dave.

Regardless of how stylish or drab the football is, winning is all that matters.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Dave L said:

The truth is that ever since the internet became a thing, every single City manager has been pilloried on this and similar forums, sometimes justifiably, sometimes for the most bizarre reasons, some close to the mark, some totally made up, often by people smarting from a recent defeat and fuelled by too many ciders. Allegedly ....

John Ward: Ran out of ideas.

Benny Lennartsson; Didn't know English football. Stupid cap. 

Tony Pulis: Ex Gas. Welsh. Boring football.

Tony Fawthrop etc: Who?

Danny Wilson: Presided over a drinking culture. Underachiever.

Brian Tinnion: The cheap option. Inexperienced.

Gary Johnson: Conference manager. Lost the dressing room.

Steve Coppell: Should have refused to sign David James after being forced to do so, at gunpoint, by SL.

Keith Millen: The even cheaper than Tinnion option.

Derek McInnes: Inexperienced in England. Over reliance on Scottish players.

Sean O'Driscoll: Borderline personality disorder. Sniffed a lot.

Steve Cotterill: Alleged hoof ball merchant. Stroppy. Used wet look hair gel.

Lee Johnson: Gary's son. Small in stature. Uses unfamiliar words.

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

COYR.

Spot on.....especially your opening paragraph 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dave L said:

The truth is that ever since the internet became a thing, every single City manager has been pilloried on this and similar forums, sometimes justifiably, sometimes for the most bizarre reasons, some close to the mark, some totally made up, often by people smarting from a recent defeat and fuelled by too many ciders. Allegedly ....

John Ward: Ran out of ideas.

Benny Lennartsson; Didn't know English football. Stupid cap. 

Tony Pulis: Ex Gas. Welsh. Boring football.

Tony Fawthrop etc: Who?

Danny Wilson: Presided over a drinking culture. Underachiever.

Brian Tinnion: The cheap option. Inexperienced.

Gary Johnson: Conference manager. Lost the dressing room.

Steve Coppell: Should have refused to sign David James after being forced to do so, at gunpoint, by SL.

Keith Millen: The even cheaper than Tinnion option.

Derek McInnes: Inexperienced in England. Over reliance on Scottish players.

Sean O'Driscoll: Borderline personality disorder. Sniffed a lot.

Steve Cotterill: Alleged hoof ball merchant. Stroppy. Used wet look hair gel.

Lee Johnson: Gary's son. Small in stature. Uses unfamiliar words.

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

COYR.

Indeed. Going a step further, contrary to what some posters have said on here, I don't really buy into the idea there were a significant number of posters who were anti-Cotts.

A lot of people opposed his appointment at the time and yes, there were a lot of people who felt he was out of his depth in the Championship OR alternatively that he allowed his frustrations with the board to impact on our results on the pitch but there were, at most, one or two posters on here who refused to give him credit during our promotion season and they were consistently told they were talking nonsense by everyone else on here. I think a lot of the posters who wanted to stick with Cotts remember the stick Cotts got in his last few months, which as divisive a time as I have known it on these boards, but Cotts wasn't consistently getting criticism when we were winning. It was only when we struggled in the Championship that things got divisive.

On the flipside, I think LJ has found it a lot harder to win fans over. I think part of that reason is down to his personality. Cotts was passionate and temperamental but in a way that people could relate to. He was also plain speaking and a bit like Sam Allardyce in the sense that his rough and readyness as an individual sometimes meant people didn't realise quite how much he analysed the game and how good a tactical coach he was. 

LJ on the other hand frequently comes across as arrogant and clearly wants to be seen as a great tactical thinker, which sets himself up for a fall when his limitations are exposed. And I do think his manner and use of managerial speak does make it hard for a lot of people to like or empathise with him. I also think he has struggled to win over a section of fans that didn't think Cotts should have gone in the first place and resent the fact that LJ has been backed in a way that didn't seem to happen under Cotterill.

But, whilst I fear he has taken us as far he can, the reality is that our results and finishes in his tenure place him amongst the more successful managers we have had in the last 30 years. And I do think the idea that we've succeeded in spite of the manager is a bit of nonsense given how many times we've struggled even when we've invested substantially in the team in the past. And I think that is the issue for me. When people say our inconsistent form is unacceptable, we're not getting the best out of the players, we've not built on the League Cup season etc. then I think that is utterly fair criticism. But when people start refusing to give LJ the credit for even the bits that have gone well over the past three years then that is where it feels based way more in a personal vendetta than valid criticism. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Dave L said:

 

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

COYR.

Some truth there Dave, but just one thing -  you seem to be discounting the possibility that LJ will be here until the end of recorded time. :whistle2:

Edited by Nogbad the Bad
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Taz said:

I never liked him as a player, for me he never did a lot. Rarely was a standout player, but on the other hand, rarely had a complete stinker. For me was a very average player, and some of the stick he got then, was uncalled for and was only because of who the manager was. I agree that some people don't like him for the same reasons, and never will.

As a coach/manager, I was sceptical on his appointment, but over time he did win me over. He has done a decent job, and we have improved every season. The runs and his comments/criticism of certain players have become tedious though, along with the crap football we are currently playing. I've now gone back on my opinion of him, and think it's time for him to go. 

Currently there seems to be a few groups of supporters:

Group 1: Hate LJ, have never liked him and never will. He will never do anything to win them over, and is the devil incarnate.

Group 2: The group I find myself in - didn't like him (or were indifferent towards him), did like him, now don't.

Group 3: Love LJ and are firmly in the "get behind him and he will take us into the Premiership" brigade. He is the longterm appointment, and won't be going anywhere.

Currently I think the fanbase is split into the 3 categories above. I don't honestly think that the board are even contemplating his position at the moment, and that's what is irking group 1, and possibly some of group 2.

Personally whilst we are still within touching distance of this season's target (playoffs), I don't think he's going anywhere. Does the board take action now to give someone new a chance whilst we are still within touching distance, and in an open transfer window, or leave it until later and make do with LJ's squad? I don't honestly think that they know 100% what they want to do (as a collective group). Of course we all know that SL/JL will make the final decision over that anyway, regardless of whether they agree with the majority of the board or not.

I think the only way he will leave any time soon, is if another club wants to take a chance on him, and that's why he has such a long contract - to protect the club and it's "asset". Currently though, I very much doubt anyone will want to take him on during one of his runs which he has become famous for. Even the Quest team call him streaky Lee!!

I'm currently of the opinion that nothing is going to change, and we will just plod along until Lee finds a combination of things to work again. We'll see if we make the playoffs, and if we don't then he will be sacked. If we do make it, then success or not, we will "go again" next season with him at the helm.

With Pulis, many hated him. Wilson, and Johnson Snr were given time, and most fans agreed that that was the right thing to do, and were disposed of when the time was right. Millen, Tinnion and Cotterill had ran their course, and most again agreed they had to go when they did. O'Driscoll and Mcinnes, again the time was right, although some will say had their work cut out from day 1 with the constraints they had at the time. SOD is part of the reason we have the system we currently do though....

I'm not sure that in recent memory one man has divided the fan base so much as Johnson Jnr. The arguments I feel, will go on and on long until after he goes.

I agree on your 3 groups. And I’ll tell you for sure, there are lots in Group 1. 
 

But also there is a group between 2 and 3. 
 

Many will have no pre-supposed opinion of him and will judge him on what he does as a manger. 
Group 2b is those who couldn’t care less how he was perceived as a player. 
I am in this group. I was happy to get behind him. I have continued to be happy with him as he has improved us each year. I am not in a blind love for him and will always fairly critique him and if I feel he can take us no further I will call him out. He’s certainly not untouchable for those of us in Group 2b. 

So I think your jump from 2 to 3 is quite extreme and misses out a large portion of our fanbase who are happy to let this bad spell ride and see how he reacts, and perhaps we’ll make a judgement on him at the end of the season. 
Just because I don’t want him sacked now doesn’t mean I love him and think he can do no wrong. He has plenty to still prove, but he’s earned the right to have time to fix it. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

Honestly, I doubt Lee's position is even being considered by anybody at the club.

The continued talk about the poor standard of football is of course subjective, and isn't continually as bad as people would have you believe (although I didn't go to Millwall, Blackburn or Brentford home games as my funds were at an all time low).

And as things stand we are still play-off candidates.  If we get our form back, it is reasonable to suggest we could win 2 of the next 3 games, and be right up in the mix.

Unless City start getting hammered every week, I cannot see that Lee will be at risk this season.

TBF we've had a few so far this season

0-5 Palace

1-3 Leeds

0-3 Luton

1-4 WBA

0-4 Brentford

Not to mention we conceded 3 goals to Forest Green and seem to find it difficult not to regularly concede 2 goals per game. Personally I think he has 2 games to turn it around Wigan and Barnsley.......has to now be 6 points or bust.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked Lee Johnson as a player. Tidy. Worked hard. Seemed to know his limitations and make the most of the talent he had. A lot to be admired in that. I was surprised that he was appointed manager but prepared to give him a chance. In my opinion he’s had it. I’m afraid that arguments that those criticising Lee’s managerial performance must have some other agenda rather let him off the hook.
 

I simply can’t understand what people see in him. And I rarely read anything on here from his admirers that leaves me any the wiser. Occasionally a contributor will put his retention in the context of some wider long term strategy - and that’s reassuring, and my thanks to those who take the time - but why a rookie manager with a very limited track record is the man to implement it beats me. 
 

 

Edited by Red Exile
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

TBF we've had a few so far this season

0-5 Palace

1-3 Leeds

0-3 Luton

1-4 WBA

0-4 Brentford

Not to mention we conceded 3 goals to Forest Green and seem to find it difficult not to regularly concede 2 goals per game. Personally I think he has 2 games to turn it around Wigan and Barnsley.......has to now be 6 points or bust.

But, prior to Luton, we’d gone something like 90+ games where we’d not lost by more than 2. 
Obviously it’s now happened twice more at WBA and with 10 v Brentford, but for 2 years we’ve been an incredibly competitive team, not getting hammered and always being ‘in’ a game. 
Add to that our rather incredible away record in 2019 and I think it’s a bit early to be saying he’s got 2 games. 
 

For what it’s worth, I have a sneaky feeling that Mark Ashton wants him out. But SL will rightly allow him the time he’s earned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Harry said:

With all due respect Noggers (and believe me, I like you as a contributor on this forum) in this case you have your head in the clouds. 
There are lots of fans who have always and will always dislike LJ purely based on their opinion of him when he was a player here. 

I know that Harry ( love you too btw) :hug: but I simply don't see that as such an extra bug bear for him as you do. It's a peculiar situation - unique with him being ex- managers' son as well as ex-player - but if a few have never liked him for that it doesn't affect things massively.

Others may even give him extra leeway, and stay more behind him than they might be another manager, for the exact same reasons.

Anyway, the present criticism and discontent is completely justified imo. whatever the basis behind it.

I would add I have not called for his head for a long time ( after that PNE game, absolutely) and am not sure what's for the best. Being a stable mid table Championship club aiming to go higher is fine by me on paper if the football on offer is regularly good enough to make supporting the club enjoyable, and of course the next managerial appointment would have to be a good one to make change worthwhile, and I'm far from convinced that would happen.

Siting through it though while LJ continues his seemingly inexhaustible learning curve, and continues these awful deflating runs, may not be possible for me next season if this carries on, and not wanting to go down the Gate would be a massive blow to me as an individual as being at AG just about every week has been a constant part of my life for as long as I can remember.

Something has to change - it may well be LJ going would be for the best - or if that's not going to happen, he has to hugely increase the enjoyment and entertainment factor to make a ST worthwhile, and find some consistency of performance from his team.

Every club goes stale and needs a kick-start now and again, I think we've reached that point ar BCFC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m in the group that it doesn’t matter what we say or do or think, the board have made their decision to stick with Lee, and so our opinions at this stage won’t make one iota of difference and so think we just have to accept that, whether we like it or not. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Harry said:

I agree on your 3 groups. And I’ll tell you for sure, there are lots in Group 1. 
 

But also there is a group between 2 and 3. 
 

Many will have no pre-supposed opinion of him and will judge him on what he does as a manger. 
Group 2b is those who couldn’t care less how he was perceived as a player. 
I am in this group. I was happy to get behind him. I have continued to be happy with him as he has improved us each year. I am not in a blind love for him and will always fairly critique him and if I feel he can take us no further I will call him out. He’s certainly not untouchable for those of us in Group 2b. 

So I think your jump from 2 to 3 is quite extreme and misses out a large portion of our fanbase who are happy to let this bad spell ride and see how he reacts, and perhaps we’ll make a judgement on him at the end of the season. 
Just because I don’t want him sacked now doesn’t mean I love him and think he can do no wrong. He has plenty to still prove, but he’s earned the right to have time to fix it. 

I’d go with this, and I think the majority are in group 2b.

As a player, I thought LJ was decent but more importantly fit the system. Without going over old ground, I actually thought his injury was one of the big reasons auto slipped away - not because he was a fantastic footballer, but because he was better in the way we played than Nick Carle (there’s a wider lesson here - best eleven don’t make the best team and I think as a fanbase we struggle with that, and bizarrely I think Lee is currently as well),

I’m in 2b with Lee as a manager. I certainly don’t love him, I certainly don’t dislike him. What I see is a manager who when you cut through all the corporate bollocks actually talks a lot of sense (this is even historic - the Kodjia piece about not being mature was correct and actually chimed with the forum opinion re offsides, it was just said in a different way). I see a heck of a lot of potential in him and think he does study/knows the game - I think he’s not got out of the trying to be too clever or overthinking phase though, and I wonder how that works with communication to the players.

I’m probably a bit further down than Harry in that I think he should probably go now, but I also wouldn’t hugely object to him having the season as we’re not going to go down. I think the frustration really stems from this season feeling like a missed opportunity bearing in mind both our FFP status and the transitional nature of Boro/Derby etc and although we’ll probably end up stagnating, that feels short of the potential 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

I’m in the group that it doesn’t matter what we say or do or think, the board have made their decision to stick with Lee, and so our opinions at this stage won’t make one iota of difference and so think we just have to accept that, whether we like it or not. 

Happy new year dolly haven’t seen you post fir a long time x

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Harry said:

But, prior to Luton, we’d gone something like 90+ games where we’d not lost by more than 2. 
Obviously it’s now happened twice more at WBA and with 10 v Brentford, but for 2 years we’ve been an incredibly competitive team, not getting hammered and always being ‘in’ a game. 
Add to that our rather incredible away record in 2019 and I think it’s a bit early to be saying he’s got 2 games. 
 

For what it’s worth, I have a sneaky feeling that Mark Ashton wants him out. But SL will rightly allow him the time he’s earned. 

I also get the impression that MA will do anything to save his own skin. Just my impression, mind. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I liked Lee Johnson as a player. Tidy. Worked hard. Seemed to know his limitations and make the most of the talent he had. A lot to be admired in that. I was surprised that he was appointed manager but prepared to give him a chance. In my opinion he’s had it. I’m afraid that arguments that those criticising Lee’s managerial performance must have done other agenda rather let him off the hook.
 

I simply can’t understand what people see in him. And I rarely read anything on here from his admirers that leaves me any the wiser. Occasionally a contributor will put his retention in the context of some wider long term strategy - and that’s reassuring, and my thanks to those who take the time - but why a rookie manager with a very limited track record is the man to implement it beats me. 
 

 

Indeed, his pre- City managerial record surely didn't qualify him for the City job in normal circumstances, and his inconsistency and dreadful runs were already apparent at his previous posts.

We know SL saw something in him, and he was always going to get the City job one day - fair enough - but that being the case it seems to me his appointment came 5 years too early.

He should have had a far longer learning curve elsewhere, built up a decent managerial CV with some lower league success, and then no one could argue he wasn't justifiably rewarded when he was appointed to the top job at AG.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Indeed, his pre- City managerial record surely didn't qualify him for the City job in normal circumstances, and his inconsistency and dreadful runs were already apparent at his previous posts.

We know SL saw something in him, and he was always going to get the City job one day - fair enough - but that being the case it seems to me his appointment came 5 years too early.

He should have had a far longer learning curve elsewhere, built up a decent managerial CV with some lower league success, and then no one could argue he wasn't justifiably rewarded when he was appointed to the top job at AG.

 

 

That is exactly what I think. Glad it’s not just me! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Indeed. Going a step further, contrary to what some posters have said on here, I don't really buy into the idea there were a significant number of posters who were anti-Cotts.

Oh, there most certainly were, including 9 or 10 of the most prominent posters on here at the time, and most of them didn't ever give him credit or change their minds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the football is miserable at the moment and that is unacceptable to those of us who pay out quite a bit of money to see them play. But there are some mitigating factors that don't seem to get much discussion.

  • We've sold our best players for the last 2 seasons. Yes we have had expensive replacements but trying to find a new system to fit them into can take quite a while. After all, look at Southampton over the past few years who went through a similar trauma.
  • LJ has quite a lot of backroom staff who should be providing him with advice about the current problems with the team. Obviously somethings not right there.

At the start of the season I thought we'd finish mid-table due to all the changes to the squad in the summer. We are on track to do that but due to the performances I'm starting to think that staleness has crept in and that a change could well be needed. If performances improve over the next month then I'd accept I was wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Harry said:

I said in my previous post that there is a significant minority of fans who didn’t like LJ as a player. I also commented therein that some of that dislike does go as far as hatred - only some. 
I’ve seen it. You may be lucky enough not to have encountered it, but I’ve seen it. 

I don't like him Harry, but I daresay there were Man U and Arsenal fans who didn't like their great managers as personalities but the football on show more than compensated . I was disappointed when he was recruited as I didn't think he deserved the job  but was genuinely happy for him to succeed.

Lee Johnson so far as i'm concerned stole a living here as a player, as you acknowledge  is a view held by many, although the minority/majority debate is moot. The fact that he has survived as a coach here, when the odds are that nobody else would have done so, reaffirms his status as bullet proof, and people simply don't like that, so when drab football and apparently random squad building occurs, combined with nonsensical post match comments the resentment resurfaces.

If he delieved consistently, his personality and past history at the club would im sure be disregraded, but it aint happening, so him and the owner have to take it on the chin until he performs as the owner would demand any other head coach would.

Edited by Natchfever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I liked Lee Johnson as a player. Tidy. Worked hard. Seemed to know his limitations and make the most of the talent he had. A lot to be admired in that. I was surprised that he was appointed manager but prepared to give him a chance. In my opinion he’s had it. I’m afraid that arguments that those criticising Lee’s managerial performance must have some other agenda rather let him off the hook.
 

I simply can’t understand what people see in him. And I rarely read anything on here from his admirers that leaves me any the wiser. Occasionally a contributor will put his retention in the context of some wider long term strategy - and that’s reassuring, and my thanks to those who take the time - but why a rookie manager with a very limited track record is the man to implement it beats me. 
 

 

I’ve said before I have no prejudice re his time as a player as a only saw him play 45 minutes.

Imho, if we look objectively at his results, he’s mid-top half of the table. However he tends to get them in “streaks”. Good runs versus poor runs. I think that leads the fan base to highs and lows too. If he consistently won 4, drew 3/4, lost 3/4, averaging 1.45 points per game (which is how each of his runs end up averaging out), the fan base would have something to be common on. Yet currently the backers highlight the good runs, the non-backers the bad runs.

This has been accentuated by home v away results / performances. Currently both home and away we are w5, d4, l4, for once equality!!! As a fan base those homers like me (albeit watching Robinstv or red button away) have missed some cracking away performances.

Do that’s the results side of things. Boom and Bust, which created easy arguments either side of the fence.

The other side is “personality”.  I’ve met Lee a number of times away from the world of football (to some extent) at Charlton Farm. He is a lovely, caring bloke, interested in the kids and families.

As a football person, I genuinely feel his heart is in absolutely the right place, and he loves Bristol City and is proud to be our manager.  There’s a but coming!

But I feel he communicates inconsistently (especially with his language). Someone said they hate his pre-match stuff and like his post-match. I’m the opposite. I love the detail pre-match (I see the plan, the reflection of previous game given a bit of time rather than straight after), but post-match often Leave me a bit cold. They don’t correlate closely to the game or focussed on individual things rather than the overall. It’s a bit like the selfish Striker being asked “How did you get on today?”, replying “I scored”, but not telling you the team lost 6-1.  The good things tend to be about how he coached that specifically during the week, the bad about how individuals made a mistake or didn’t carry out the plan, highlighting individuals, usually the younger ones, or deflecting with box entries or clutch  

I don’t think he should carry the can for every defeat either.  I just think he wants to say too much which in turn leads him to saying things he shouldn’t whilst he’s thinks on his feet.

I believe this is an area where he alienates those non-backers.  It appears dis-honest, when in some cases it’s too honest (and open), but rarely (not always) giving them right people the credit or discredit.

Its a tough job, he isn’t doing it badly.  But there are elements to improve, some that have been reoccurring throughout his 4 years. That grates me and I’m a 2.b!!!  If you’re a 1. You won’t get beyond that.

Sack him now? Nope.  I don’t think that is deserving of his overall job done.

Expect the fan base to still be divided? Yep

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Taz said:

 

Currently there seems to be a few groups of supporters:

Group 1: Hate LJ, have never liked him and never will. He will never do anything to win them over, and is the devil incarnate.

Group 2: The group I find myself in - didn't like him (or were indifferent towards him), did like him, now don't.

Group 3: Love LJ and are firmly in the "get behind him and he will take us into the Premiership" brigade. He is the longterm appointment, and won't be going anywhere.

 

I'm in group 2.5

I wouldn't be surprised if he's sacked if he doesn't turn it round in the next 3 or 4 games and wouldn't be bothered if he was as there are some factors which would merit it. But I also wouldn't be suprised if he's given till the end of the season and wouldn't be bothered by that either as there are some factors which also merit that.

All these emotional words such as  "like" or "hate" should be confined to the play ground imo. He is either good at his job or indifferent or poor - I don't see the need for the personal stuff and the abuse, its childish and offensive. Its a minority which really should grow up and get some perspective in their lives.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

Indeed. Going a step further, contrary to what some posters have said on here, I don't really buy into the idea there were a significant number of posters who were anti-Cotts.

A lot of people opposed his appointment at the time and yes, there were a lot of people who felt he was out of his depth in the Championship OR alternatively that he allowed his frustrations with the board to impact on our results on the pitch but there were, at most, one or two posters on here who refused to give him credit during our promotion season and they were consistently told they were talking nonsense by everyone else on here. I think a lot of the posters who wanted to stick with Cotts remember the stick Cotts got in his last few months, which as divisive a time as I have known it on these boards, but Cotts wasn't consistently getting criticism when we were winning. It was only when we struggled in the Championship that things got divisive.

On the flipside, I think LJ has found it a lot harder to win fans over. I think part of that reason is down to his personality. Cotts was passionate and temperamental but in a way that people could relate to. He was also plain speaking and a bit like Sam Allardyce in the sense that his rough and readyness as an individual sometimes meant people didn't realise quite how much he analysed the game and how good a tactical coach he was. 

LJ on the other hand frequently comes across as arrogant and clearly wants to be seen as a great tactical thinker, which sets himself up for a fall when his limitations are exposed. And I do think his manner and use of managerial speak does make it hard for a lot of people to like or empathise with him. I also think he has struggled to win over a section of fans that didn't think Cotts should have gone in the first place and resent the fact that LJ has been backed in a way that didn't seem to happen under Cotterill.

But, whilst I fear he has taken us as far he can, the reality is that our results and finishes in his tenure place him amongst the more successful managers we have had in the last 30 years. And I do think the idea that we've succeeded in spite of the manager is a bit of nonsense given how many times we've struggled even when we've invested substantially in the team in the past. And I think that is the issue for me. When people say our inconsistent form is unacceptable, we're not getting the best out of the players, we've not built on the League Cup season etc. then I think that is utterly fair criticism. But when people start refusing to give LJ the credit for even the bits that have gone well over the past three years then that is where it feels based way more in a personal vendetta than valid criticism. 

Don't agree with the last paragraph but everything before it is a very perceptive analysis, and indeed reflects most of my feelings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Harry said:

With all due respect Noggers (and believe me, I like you as a contributor on this forum) in this case you have your head in the clouds. 
There are lots of fans who have always and will always dislike LJ purely based on their opinion of him when he was a player here. 

Obviously I am an example of someone who didn't rate Johnson as a player and also do not think he is up to it as manager.

Unless you can reach into my head better than me, you are wrong mate.

Firstly, I don't dislike Johnson as a person, at all. I genuinely think that outside of football he's a nice chap, its just that when he open his mouth about football it's almost like he's auditioning for a part playing David Brent.

Specifically I don't think Johnson should be manager because:

1. He did nothing to warrant manager before coming here.
2. He inherited some very good players which have been sold for a lot of money, most of which he has been allowed to re-invest, yet 8 transfer windows into a tenure which at the beginning Lansdown said he wanted Premiership football and Johnson said he needed 3 windows, we look very unlikely to achieve the Premiership football which the owner himself defined as success. 
3. I don't think he's a natural leader.
4. The football is very boring and negative.
5. As ridiculous as it may sound, given that its gone, was a long time a go and nothing can be done about it, I do resent that Cotterill was not given the opportunity of the transfer window of 4 years ago to remedy things at that time. He had earned that right far more than any notion that Johnson has earned the right to continue as manager now.

None of those things are linked to my opinion of Johnson as a player.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...