Monday....decision day!?

[Phileas Fogg]

49 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Yes I agree he did say that. To which the obvious next question is:

"once you have had your 3 windows Lee, and have shaped the squad the way you would like it, what is your ambition? Is it to match the club owners stated ambition of promotion to the Premiership?"

Would be a bit weird if the answer to that question was "No".

I think that's a fairer debate point, having the squad the 'way he would like it' is a fairly ambiguous thing to say. I think at the time, 3 windows for promotion was a tall order. 

3 windows to make us a competitive championship side - achieved that.

3 windows to make us a competitive side with a good chance of making the top 6 - achieved that in places since that quote, not consistently though. 

I think we are in danger of over-analysing a throwaway remark but it would be interesting to hear exactly what Johnson's thoughts were at the time. 

[Med/MadHatter]

59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

Each to their own but I thought the football before Christmas and at home, that combo especially was quite decent.

                    Basso

Orr Carey McCombe McAllister

Sproule Elliott Johnson McIndoe

                     Noble

            Byfield/Trundle

Tactically, Noble behind the striker helped...but technically too. Remember a number of good games before Christmas- some where we had to hang on too of course.

With the arrival of Adebola, we did shift shape more but also we shifted more direct- not a bad Plan B and I wonder if a fully fit Brooker could have got us somewhere between the two styles as he often had fitness issues in his final season or 2.

Put Maynard in that side...with that balance and Noble directly behind, the flexibility for it to pull into a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 etc, and I believe we would have got more goals.

Yeah though, decent side- with some reliable reserves in Wilson, Fontaine, at times Vasko, Skuse, Brooker to name 2. Plus one of Byfield and Trundle as paring them wasn't always the best idea and nor was e.g. Noble in a central 2.

Was an excellent feelgood factor round the ground that season too. Good atmosphere- helped that we had just come up and probably were not to say the least expected to be hitting such heights so soon!

I only saw a few games that season as I was mostly working away from home so had to read as much as i could on online newspapers and football forums, just the results and table kept me happy!

[Harry]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Obviously I am an example of someone who didn't rate Johnson as a player and also do not think he is up to it as manager.

Unless you can reach into my head better than me, you are wrong mate.

Firstly, I don't dislike Johnson as a person, at all. I genuinely think that outside of football he's a nice chap, its just that when he open his mouth about football it's almost like he's auditioning for a part playing David Brent.

Specifically I don't think Johnson should be manager because:

1. He did nothing to warrant manager before coming here.
2. He inherited some very good players which have been sold for a lot of money, most of which he has been allowed to re-invest, yet 8 transfer windows into a tenure which at the beginning Lansdown said he wanted Premiership football and Johnson said he needed 3 windows, we look very unlikely to achieve the Premiership football which the owner himself defined as success. 
3. I don't think he's a natural leader.
4. The football is very boring and negative.
5. As ridiculous as it may sound, given that its gone, was a long time a go and nothing can be done about it, I do resent that Cotterill was not given the opportunity of the transfer window of 4 years ago to remedy things at that time. He had earned that right far more than any notion that Johnson has earned the right to continue as manager now.

None of those things are linked to my opinion of Johnson as a player.

Nick, I know you’ve always been anti-LJ, but my talk of those with a prejudice does not refer to someone like you. 
I know you and I know you are a rational bloke. 
I know that you will weigh your opinions up in a fair manner. 
But let’s not deny - there are plenty out there who are not quite as intelligent and rational as you. There are many fans out there who have a total dislike to him and it’s not based on rational thought, like yours, it’s based on a simplistic form of nepotism - some simply cannot and will not get over their opinion of him when he was a player being picked by his dad. 
It’s always been there and always will be with him. I knew it would be that way as soon as he walked back through the doors of this club.

[BigTone]

Well what decisions gave been made ?  Mine are that my New Year resolutions are crap and should be ignored. Job done & wine opened !!

[Bazooka Joe]

3 hours ago, NickJ said:

Obviously I am an example of someone who didn't rate Johnson as a player and also do not think he is up to it as manager.

Unless you can reach into my head better than me, you are wrong mate.

Firstly, I don't dislike Johnson as a person, at all. I genuinely think that outside of football he's a nice chap, its just that when he open his mouth about football it's almost like he's auditioning for a part playing David Brent.

Specifically I don't think Johnson should be manager because:

1. He did nothing to warrant manager before coming here.
2. He inherited some very good players which have been sold for a lot of money, most of which he has been allowed to re-invest, yet 8 transfer windows into a tenure which at the beginning Lansdown said he wanted Premiership football and Johnson said he needed 3 windows, we look very unlikely to achieve the Premiership football which the owner himself defined as success. 
3. I don't think he's a natural leader.
4. The football is very boring and negative.
5. As ridiculous as it may sound, given that its gone, was a long time a go and nothing can be done about it, I do resent that Cotterill was not given the opportunity of the transfer window of 4 years ago to remedy things at that time. He had earned that right far more than any notion that Johnson has earned the right to continue as manager now.

None of those things are linked to my opinion of Johnson as a player.

Well said.

If we played better football/were winning/were going up the table, I'd be happy for Johnson stay in charge, but we ain't doing any of those things. The football recently has been absolutely dire.

I honestly don't care who the manager is as long as we're successful or looking close to being successful.

[CityCiderEd]

3 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I didn't really have any preconceived feelings about LJ when he arrived simply because I hardly knew him as a player having lived abroad during his playing career here. I saw half a dozen games a season and he probably didn't play in all of them, hardly enough to form a dislike.

My opinion was based on a thorough search through his playing and managerial career. I formed the opinion that he had played a significant portion of his career for his father. His managerial career was so short, without any hint of winning a trophy.

I was afraid that most of his experience was gained from his father. A narrow experience, hardly rounded by playing with plenty of managers or even one very successful one.

So four years on, I still see a manager who is too cautious, cannot decide on a settled pattern/style of play and a very demoralising habit of publicly criticising individual members of the team.

I do not hate him. I believe that we could find better.

Spot on.......

[Pezo]

19 hours ago, 42nite said:

 

He will also still be here when we play the Sags.   

 

I don't think they will beat Coventry. 

[Rich]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Nick, I know you’ve always been anti-LJ, but my talk of those with a prejudice does not refer to someone like you. 
I know you and I know you are a rational bloke. 
I know that you will weigh your opinions up in a fair manner. 
But let’s not deny - there are plenty out there who are not quite as intelligent and rational as you. There are many fans out there who have a total dislike to him and it’s not based on rational thought, like yours, it’s based on a simplistic form of nepotism - some simply cannot and will not get over their opinion of him when he was a player being picked by his dad. 
It’s always been there and always will be with him. I knew it would be that way as soon as he walked back through the doors of this club.

I agree with that assessment, it makes one wonder why the person making the decision to employ such a divisive character would do so. Was it because of his outstanding abilities, or, because he was in charge and could do what he wanted, or perhaps both. Either way, it was a brave decision and not exactly a popular one with a very large proportion of the supporter base and as such we've had four years of bickering amongst the supporters, rather than a united front. As it turns out, the supporter base seems to be changing gradually and the make up is now one inclusive of more people with higher earnings and possibly, a more tolerant attitude than supporters of yesteryear, I believe that's always been part of the business plan.

[Phileas Fogg]

22 minutes ago, Rich said:

I agree with that assessment, it makes one wonder why the person making the decision to employ such a divisive character would do so. Was it because of his outstanding abilities, or, because he was in charge and could do what he wanted, or perhaps both. Either way, it was a brave decision and not exactly a popular one with a very large proportion of the supporter base and as such we've had four years of bickering amongst the supporters, rather than a united front. As it turns out, the supporter base seems to be changing gradually and the make up is now one inclusive of more people with higher earnings and possibly, a more tolerant attitude than supporters of yesteryear, I believe that's always been part of the business plan.

Lansdown loves a romantic narrative, always has done. Whether that’s a marquee signing (Stewart, Bridges, Trundle, James) Bristol hosting a 2018 WC game, or a big statement (GJ’s promised war-chest if we won the playoffs) or this - the continuation of the Johnson dynasty; this time ending in city becoming a PL club.

You can see why Johnson impressed Lansdown, even as a young man in his playing days he invested his money wisely. He probably spoke in a way that was familiar to Lansdown, with statistics, jargon and detail. Coming from Lansdown’s financial background - this no doubt resonated with him far more than the way people like Cotterill spoke.

It was obvious Lansdown would always make Johnson manager here - I called it years ago. I was personally surprised by the timing though. 

 

[Maesknoll Red]

7 hours ago, Dave L said:

The truth is that ever since the internet became a thing, every single City manager has been pilloried on this and similar forums, sometimes justifiably, sometimes for the most bizarre reasons, some close to the mark, some totally made up, often by people smarting from a recent defeat and fuelled by too many ciders. Allegedly ....

John Ward: Ran out of ideas.

Benny Lennartsson; Didn't know English football. Stupid cap. 

Tony Pulis: Ex Gas. Welsh. Boring football.

Tony Fawthrop etc: Who?

Danny Wilson: Presided over a drinking culture. Underachiever.

Brian Tinnion: The cheap option. Inexperienced.

Gary Johnson: Conference manager. Lost the dressing room.

Steve Coppell: Should have refused to sign David James after being forced to do so, at gunpoint, by SL.

Keith Millen: The even cheaper than Tinnion option.

Derek McInnes: Inexperienced in England. Over reliance on Scottish players.

Sean O'Driscoll: Borderline personality disorder. Sniffed a lot.

Steve Cotterill: Alleged hoof ball merchant. Stroppy. Used wet look hair gel.

Lee Johnson: Gary's son. Small in stature. Uses unfamiliar words.

The one thing that unites them all is that as long as we were winning games, the criticism stopped and they were apparently the best manager in the league. When we start losing. it begins again, and so it will be until the end of recorded time.

COYR.

‘‘Twas ever thus Dave, before the advent of SM, when people used to go to the pub and play darts, skittles, crib and pool, there would be talk about the players, the Manager et al, often fuelled by cider, the difference is now many sit at home (or even if they do go the pub) staring at a screen and pouring their hearts out.

Some of the examples you give have more than a grain of truth, there was a big drinking culture at the club, it was out of hand, thankfully it seems to not be an issue now.  It may well be that we weren’t alone in that, lower leagues were slower at coming to the sport psychology party than the top clubs, influenced by the likes of Wenger.

I bet if you could unearth some old copies of the Green ‘Un, there would be letters in them bemoaning something about the club, performances, League position etc.

I guess there would be little point in a forum, if we all thought the same.  One thing I don’t get is when people get labelled as ‘hating’ someone, really, I can only think of one City employee that has come close to me hating them and that was Pulis - and that was probably irrational.  As for LJ, I was content enough with him as a player, we’ve had worse, as a Manager I had concerns that he wasn’t the right man (experience for one) and I have had swings from that to feeling he’d cracked it (the first half of the cup run season) back to now, where I feel, he has probably run his race here and a fresh face could kickstart things again.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

Each to their own but I thought the football before Christmas and at home, that combo especially was quite decent.

                    Basso

Orr Carey McCombe McAllister

Sproule Elliott Johnson McIndoe

                     Noble

            Byfield/Trundle

Tactically, Noble behind the striker helped...but technically too. Remember a number of good games before Christmas- some where we had to hang on too of course.

With the arrival of Adebola, we did shift shape more but also we shifted more direct- not a bad Plan B and I wonder if a fully fit Brooker could have got us somewhere between the two styles as he often had fitness issues in his final season or 2.

Put Maynard in that side...with that balance and Noble directly behind, the flexibility for it to pull into a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 etc, and I believe we would have got more goals.

Yeah though, decent side- with some reliable reserves in Wilson, Fontaine, at times Vasko, Skuse, Brooker to name 2. Plus one of Byfield and Trundle as paring them wasn't always the best idea and nor was e.g. Noble in a central 2.

Was an excellent feelgood factor round the ground that season too. Good atmosphere- helped that we had just come up and probably were not to say the least expected to be hitting such heights so soon!

Are there some parallels with the forward part of that 4411 - Noble and Palmer, Byfield and Afobe, Adebola and Diedhiou?  Not saying each is a direct replica, but for those who saw those games, did Noble play better with Byfield than Adebola?  As below I caught the odd game on telly, but that was about it.

3 hours ago, Med/MadHatter said:

I only saw a few games that season as I was mostly working away from home so had to read as much as i could on online newspapers and football forums, just the results and table kept me happy!

I wasn’t a regular at that stage of my life, young family, working in London 2/3 days a week, only got to 1 game (Watford).

[Red Exile]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Are there some parallels with the forward part of that 4411 - Noble and Palmer, Byfield and Afobe, Adebola and Diedhiou?  Not saying each is a direct replica, but for those who saw those games, did Noble play better with Byfield than Adebola?  As below I caught the odd game on telly, but that was about it.

I wasn’t a regular at that stage of my life, young family, working in London 2/3 days a week, only got to 1 game (Watford).

Despite what some posters might suggest...it was a brilliant season, success against the odds. Imagine the Cotts team going on to get to the play-offs, and Wembley. For most of us it was that sort of journey.

It was a season never bettered in my 40 plus years following City home and away.

Gary Johnson was a master at getting the crowd going...we still have the candle...

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Despite what some posters might suggest...it was a brilliant season, success against the odds. Imagine the Cotts team going on to get to the play-offs, and Wembley. For most of us it was that sort of journey.

It was a season never bettered in my 40 plus years following City home and away.

Gary Johnson was a master at getting the crowd going...we still have the candle...

Yep. From down mooching about in League One- higher end but nonetheless League One. Then the bottom falls out under Tinnion post Liota departure and things even get worse under GJ early doors.

Yet, 2 years from bottom of League One in December 2005- the Bradford loss being defeat number 9, Dave Cotterill scoring vs Huddersfield in a 2-0 win a few days later, but 9 losses on the bounce and bottom of League One, two years later we're top 2, or top 6, whatever in the Championship...a League we finished bottom of and were largely a shambles in- some good runs aside- in 1998/99! Couldn't believe it, pinching myself- what a rise, what a season!

Especially that 2 year difference though, that was a remarkable change and we didn't break the bank to do so either.

The candle...I'd forgotten about that! Believe, candle- when we won the buildup to cheer and airpunch at the end as he and the team came off!#

Atmosphere was good too!

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Despite what some posters might suggest...it was a brilliant season, success against the odds. Imagine the Cotts team going on to get to the play-offs, and Wembley. For most of us it was that sort of journey.

It was a season never bettered in my 40 plus years following City home and away.

Gary Johnson was a master at getting the crowd going...we still have the candle...

It was great. I think we all knew it wasn’t the most gifted side, but we somehow stayed up there with sheer grit and togetherness. 06/07 and 07/08 was probably my favourite time watching City.

[Phileas Fogg]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It was great. I think we all knew it wasn’t the most gifted side, but we somehow stayed up there with sheer grit and togetherness. 06/07 and 07/08 was probably my favourite time watching City.

Actually saying that, Trundle and Noble are two of the most talented and enigmatic players I’ve seen play for us. Both had Premier League quality in flashes, but obvious flaws which is why they were with us.
 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just checked the historic comparisons between the two.

Quote

6th December 2005, P20W4D4L12F22A40PTS16GD-18 24TH

Quote

6th December 2007, P20W9D7L4F25A23PTS34GD+2 4TH

Looking at that, you'd think as an outsider that we would've been 4th in League One in 2007 trying to return and bottom of the Championship in 2005, fighting a relegation battle, yet it was the other way round...once again- what a rise!

[Red Exile]

42 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yep. From down mooching about in League One- higher end but nonetheless League One. Then the bottom falls out under Tinnion post Liota departure and things even get worse under GJ early doors.

Yet, 2 years from bottom of League One in December 2005- the Bradford loss being defeat number 9, Dave Cotterill scoring vs Huddersfield in a 2-0 win a few days later, but 9 losses on the bounce and bottom of League One, two years later we're top 2, or top 6, whatever in the Championship...a League we finished bottom of and were largely a shambles in- some good runs aside- in 1998/99! Couldn't believe it, pinching myself- what a rise, what a season!

Especially that 2 year difference though, that was a remarkable change and we didn't break the bank to do so either.

The candle...I'd forgotten about that! Believe, candle- when we won the buildup to cheer and airpunch at the end as he and the team came off!#

Atmosphere was good too!

We also have one of the boots Adriano Basso wore at Wembley...handed to my son, who was wearing a Brazilian flag, as the great man did his lap of honour...has pride of place...and has even been requested at the house warming of a fellow City fan to bring good fortune...haha...

...what a season that was. By chance we decided from pre-season to go to as many matches as possible...we did pre-season, the playoffs and 38 league matches...a ridiculous 10 months.

[downendcity]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

But the difference is the history. 
Yes, fans do or don’t like managerial appointments. But with LJ there was already a historical dislike for him amongst some fans from when he was a player. And that group of fans will never give him any rope. 
This is undeniable. Many fans didn’t like LJ as player and will never accept him as a manager. Absolutely undeniable. 

A slight correction Harry.

That group of fans will give him some rope, but only as long as he ties it in a noose around his neck!

 

 

 

[Superjack]

22 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Actually saying that, Trundle and Noble are two of the most talented and enigmatic players I’ve seen play for us. Both had Premier League quality in flashes, but obvious flaws which is why they were with us.
 

I seem to recall that Noble could never get in the team for some reason...