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reddogkev

Offside goal killer - disgrace

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20 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Why was it that VAR was used at Premier League grounds in the FA cup over the last few days but not at any other stadia? How is that equal and fair either way round? Surely it’s all or nothing in the cup - available at all grounds or none at all ... results would have/could have been so different - eg which game was it where it looked like the ball had gone out of play for a goal kick before a striker ‘kept it in’ and it led to a goal? Was it at PNE?

Agree 100% I always thought that if it wasn’t available at one ground in a competition then it couldn’t be used at any ground. 

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13 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Does anybody think it fair that so many goals are now being wiped off because of the slightest hint of offside?

It seems categorical that offside now applies to players in line with the last defender.  Nottm Forest had two good goals chalked off against Chelsea, when in both cases the forward's body was still in line with the defender.

I used to blame VAR for killing goals, but it is the offside change that is doing it.

I don't understand why this has happened.  I would guess the number of goals 'killed' like this must already be in the twenties or thirties this season.

Sad times, will it ever change?  Or is this new standard actually correct? 

What’s changed? It’s been this way for years, the difference is only that a video can give an accurate decision now rather than a linesman not giving it and then getting berated all weekend for getting the decision wrong?

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12 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Yes one of the worst for me too. Also don’t like that most camera angles aren’t directly across the pitch. I am sure the tech makes it quite accurate even not looking across it but visually hard for me to accept. 
 

I have said a few times the part of the body that plays the ball first should be where the offside occurs. Meaning if your shoulder is offside but you score with your right foot which is onside it should count. Or if your head is slightly offside and you score with your head it is offside. Or if in the build up your right foot is a toe offside and you cross with your right foot it is offside etc. They’d probably find a way to muck that up too though.

Also in favour of if any part of the body you can score with is onside then it counts. Favour the attackers. Everyone likes goals find a way to boost those numbers. We won’t like that at first either but the moneymakers will. Scoring attracts fans in general. They have done this in plenty of American sports(I know most of you don’t like them but what I am most familiar with) where they have given advantages to offences/attacks. Their ratings are generally higher than ever. Plus most of those marginal ones are defences stepping up in an offside trap so penalised for being a bit too slow. 

What if that body part is 1mm offside? There’s still going to be a line and a definitive point to judge offside against and we’ll have the same argument about it being so close it’s unfair?

12 hours ago, Robbored said:

Sourness came up with the idea that it should be the players feet that determine whether he’s offside or not. 

The ridiculous hand/shoulder being offside pisses off every football fan out there............:disapointed2se:

Well the hand can’t be offside

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9 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

This is my issue with it, how can it be clear and obvious if it takes 10 camera angles and 3 minutes of replays to check it? I think they should have some version of "umpires call" like in cricket. If it's that close, you go with the on field decision, this would also stop the system undermining the on field officials.

“Clear and obvious” has nothing to do with offsides, that’s for subjective referee decisions

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17 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

“Clear and obvious” has nothing to do with offsides, that’s for subjective referee decisions

How do you explain the Pukki decision then? 

That looks out and out wrong to me.

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18 hours ago, DT The Optimist said:

Heard read somewhere that must be clear and obvious offside, not a toe nail or finger tip. It’s being looked at by authorities this month. 
VAR  is good but got to apply common sense. Goals and things like that.  Handballs, pens etc

Always remember being in a bar in Turkey for World Cup match England v Germany and the frank Lampard goal. I was only Brit in bar  The jerries thought it hilarious when not given when I went into melt down . Still had a good night later with them. 

I heard the same thing, Fifa are apparently not happy with the way that VAR is being used in the prem for offside because when they are getting all these lines out and taking minutes to make a decision about if a players arm pit is onside or not, that doesn't comply with the Fifa directive that VAR should only be used in clear and obvious error situations. It simply cant be a clear and obvious error if they are taking minutes to decide, a clear and obvious error is surely when you first see a replay and instantly notice the ref has made a error?

I quite liked someones suggestion above that there should be a 30 second limit on VAR decisions, that's plenty enough time to tell if it's a clear and obvious error. Any longer than that and it's clearly not a clear and obvious error.

With offsides the question should always be asked if the linesman could have spotted and judged that someone was 1 mm onside or offside with his naked eye.

I found it interesting that in whatever game it was that the pitch side monitor was used for the first time in a FA governed game, I think the ref and the FA wanted to send out a message to the Premier League that they should be used.

 

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7 hours ago, MarcusX said:

What if that body part is 1mm offside? There’s still going to be a line and a definitive point to judge offside against and we’ll have the same argument about it being so close it’s unfair?

Well the hand can’t be offside

I don’t think even now it is unfair just nonsensical. With this the first point of contact is offside which is easier to understand. The hard part is the chest/abdomen are. It would just be a guess of where the ball makes contact. So not perfect but not sure it ever will be by being used for offside

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This offside by an armpit is just nonsense, the rule should be simple, only feet can be offside, anything else is legal. VAR works well in most European countries but as always we make a cock up of it. Perhaps it should be taken away, evaluated and put back in next year, worked for cricket.

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29 minutes ago, RUSSEL85 said:

This offside by an armpit is just nonsense, the rule should be simple, only feet can be offside, anything else is legal. VAR works well in most European countries but as always we make a cock up of it. Perhaps it should be taken away, evaluated and put back in next year, worked for cricket.

How do other countries handle offside, i don’t watch much other football outside UK?

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On 06/01/2020 at 11:59, DT The Optimist said:

Heard read somewhere that must be clear and obvious offside, not a toe nail or finger tip. It’s being looked at by authorities this month. 
VAR  is good but got to apply common sense. Goals and things like that.  Handballs, pens etc

Always remember being in a bar in Turkey for World Cup match England v Germany and the frank Lampard goal. I was only Brit in bar  The jerries thought it hilarious when not given when I went into melt down . Still had a good night later with them. 

It's a ******* shambles.

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17 hours ago, Gazred said:

For me and using the Pukki 'goal' as an example, if it's reviewed in slow motion and paused as the ball is played, if it looks on/offside with the naked eye then that should be enough. If they are going to surgically analyse everything frame by frame and work things out in mm using a geometry kit then just bin it off. If VAR is staying then discussions are needed at FIFA HQ about changing the offside rule.

Football is about scoring goals, denying that one in particular as they did just wasn't in the spirit of the game for me, it was a really good goal.

They try and surgically analyse it, but still aren't able to actually pinpoint the precise point where the ball is played.

At the true point of contact where the ball is played the image should have no blur as the ball would be stationary (as the contact is changing the balls direction), they faff about with the mm of a players fingernail, but the imprecise selection of when the ball is played would mean the outcome of those extremely tight calls are more often than not incorrect because of the way they are using VAR.

 

 

In this image from Iran vs Spain the ball is blurred, so the point of play the offside should have been measure from has already passed.

With players moving in opposite directions a tenth of a second can be a the best part of a foot in difference from the image there, possibly more so if it was 2 players at full sprint (unlikely here with this being from a set piece).

 

So we have technology and not only is it implemented badly from the fact they are measuring to minutiae, they are also measuring to those minutiae incorrectly.

DgKGvxuVQAA4k26.jpg

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"Lukas Brud, general secretary of the International Football Association Board, said: "With VAR we see some things that are going in a direction that we may need to re-adjust."

He said the body would reissue guidance on VAR's use after its annual general meeting in February.

"If you spend multiple minutes trying to identify whether it is offside or not, then it's not clear and obvious and the original decision should stand," he said.

He added: "What we really need to stress is that 'clear and obvious' applies to every single situation that is being reviewed by the VAR or the referee.


"In theory, 1mm offside is offside, but if a decision is taken that a player is not offside and the VAR is trying to identify through looking at five, six, seven, 10, 12 cameras whether or not it was offside, then the original decision should stand."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50944416

At present the EPL's referees are diverging from the intent. These referees are the PGMOL. Professional game match Limited. They have it wrong, not only do they have it wrong their spokesmen have gone on sky etc and misled others e.g. The Puki goal would not be offside according to the IFAB but on TV the PGMOL asserted it was.

This was always going to happen with VAR. Footballs laws due to the nature of the game frequently must to be subjective. Football cannot be perfect, and VAR is an industry, there is money to be made .. It not for the wider benefit of the game.

 

Edited by Cowshed
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1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

They try and surgically analyse it, but still aren't able to actually pinpoint the precise point where the ball is played.

At the true point of contact where the ball is played the image should have no blur as the ball would be stationary (as the contact is changing the balls direction), they faff about with the mm of a players fingernail, but the imprecise selection of when the ball is played would mean the outcome of those extremely tight calls are more often than not incorrect because of the way they are using VAR.

 

 

In this image from Iran vs Spain the ball is blurred, so the point of play the offside should have been measure from has already passed.

With players moving in opposite directions a tenth of a second can be a the best part of a foot in difference from the image there, possibly more so if it was 2 players at full sprint (unlikely here with this being from a set piece).

 

So we have technology and not only is it implemented badly from the fact they are measuring to minutiae, they are also measuring to those minutiae incorrectly.

DgKGvxuVQAA4k26.jpg

It's a good point.

If they want to continue to use it as they are then perhaps they should use super slo motion cameras that capture many more frames per second rather than relying on the tv broadcast pictures for reviews. 

Is the answer really more tech or amendment of the rules to fit the current tech?

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How about completely reversing it.......so as to give the attacker the advantage?   The whole of the attackers body, including toes and finger "Pheckin" nails has to be over the line for it to be offside?  So if his right foot is behind the line, he is onside.   More goals, More Excitement...........and less ludicrous decisions to delay and frustrate paying customers, who have had to put up with complete and utter bollocks since FARCE was introduced?

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On 06/01/2020 at 15:09, Highguy said:

just like the whole ball has to cross the line so if even 1mm of your body you score with is offside then by letter of the laws of football your offside 

We are still getting use to the var its not going be perfect straight away and everyone always going have an opinion on it regardless if we use var 

Think back to the world cup when we played the germans and lampard shot crosses the line but wasnt given now we have goal line tech that noone moans about but things can take time to get right

If we can get it right like the rugby and cricket do then it could help improve the gane and stop teams getting robbed and managers getting sacked

rome wasnt built in a day 

Probably the most measured and logical post I've read in a while.

Why don't people stop moaning so much and just get on with it knowing the technology is in its infancy and ain't gonna be perfect straight out the box. As we get version 2.0 etc things will improve and nuances ironed out. 

Football fans seem to have extremely short memories on how bad some of the decisions were in the past. Would you rather go onto a possible world cup semi/final or be knocked out by a blatant hand ball from a cheating c***?

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