Why are we waiting ? (Some cheery stats for a new year of inevitable further delay)

[Bristol Oil Services]

Apparently, we - Bristol City - have waited the longest (111 years) for a return to the FA cup final amongst the present football and premier league clubs, the whole 92.  

So, on that cheery thought, I veered off into: who has waited longest for a return to the top level of English football  (thinking about who is excluded from both considerations provides some solace and consolation). I haven't worked it out for the entire 92 but evidently the current 20 PL clubs can be eliminated, and looking at this season's Championship I reckon only Preston (1961) and Brentford (1947) have waited longer than our good selves (1980).

I cannot be arsed going through the lower league nobodies to work out where we stand amongst those that have tasted the top but Blackpool, Bolton, Cov, Ipswich, Oxford, Pompey and Sunderland have not yet amassed our 40 years of wait/hurt. And all that lot have graced an FA or league cup final since we last did too. Oh, and we can add Swindon to that list. And Bradford. I believe the list goes on (but have not the evidence to back this up).

And so, we wait. Our gratification is delayed. Our patience is tested, and our irritability is understandable. As we go on. Waiting.

But why are we waiting, longer than anyone (other than Preston and Brentford)? And how many more windows will it take (don't worry answering or debating: these are rhetorical questions, idle thoughts bouncing around my monkey mind as I wait) to bring an end to this waiting, this long, long wait ........

 

[Kingswood Robin]

I does make you wonder. Yes it's difficult now, but it was difficult 20 years ago, and 20 years before that it was difficult for different reasons, but these other teams have managed to achieve something. You can't just keep citing that it's difficult to do, some of this must be down to the clubs failings. People used to say that good players didn't want to come down to this part of the world but if you look along the M4 from London, Reading, Swindon, Cardiff, Swansea, they've got to a final or been in the Premier League. Bristol's omission is an utter embarrassment. I find people's contentment with this under achievement very odd. The law of averages must mean we achieve something soon, despite our incompetence, surely...….

[Mr Popodopolous]

Reading- Madjeski spent a lot PLUS they had external revenue streams from the ground which we did not. Steve Coppell also delivered after a few years of steady progress...yet when hiuthertp good managers have come here in the past, Wilson (Barnsley promotion), Coppell and even O'Driscoll for his good work with Doncaster, they've either failed narrowly or it's imploded. No FFP then too for Reading.

Swindon- Dunno. Hoddle? No FFP.

Cardiff- LOTS of spending, LOTS. New ground, new revenue streams at that time ie 2009. No FFP in any meaningful way in 2012/13.

Swansea. A unique philosophy or a distinct one at least- new ground which had some more revenue streams than AG. Put the two together and it can look alright- no FFP then, not that they were near breaching it anyway.

Anymore?

More as well, by @Moments of Pleasure

CONTINUED.

Sunderland? Bigger club. Moved to Stadium of Light and opened Academy of Lifght in 1997...for years their infrastructure was miles ahead.

Ipswich? Bigger club. Until our upgrades, better infrastructure.

Bradford? Bigger ground, better infrastructure probably at that time- no FFP 20 years ago!!

Portsmouth? Free spenders, no FFP, Redknapp.

Blackpool? A rare non buying promotion, Hollowhead did well there, very well. Playoffs so these things can go either way.

Anymore?

Point is, there are similarities but no two cases are identical. Different FFP constraints, free spending, ahead of us at the time infrastructure wise, unique philosophy or just bigger clubs...NO magic bullet!

[bcfc01]

Oldham were top division in the early 90's and reached a legue cup final.

Notts County were top division in the early 80's.

Carlisle were up there in the early 70's.

 

[RedLionLad]

29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Reading- Madjeski spent a lot PLUS they had external revenue streams from the ground which we did not. Steve Coppell also delivered after a few years of steady progress...yet when hiuthertp good managers have come here in the past, Wilson (Barnsley promotion), Coppell and even O'Driscoll for his good work with Doncaster, they've either failed narrowly or it's imploded. No FFP then too for Reading.

Swindon- Dunno. Hoddle? No FFP.

Cardiff- LOTS of spending, LOTS. New ground, new revenue streams at that time ie 2009. No FFP in any meaningful way in 2012/13.

Swansea. A unique philosophy or a distinct one at least- new ground which had some more revenue streams than AG. Put the two together and it can look alright- no FFP then, not that they were near breaching it anyway.

Anymore?

More as well, by @Moments of Pleasure

CONTINUED.

Sunderland? Bigger club. Moved to Stadium of Light and opened Academy of Lifght in 1997...for years their infrastructure was miles ahead.

Ipswich? Bigger club. Until our upgrades, better infrastructure.

Bradford? Bigger ground, better infrastructure probably at that time- no FFP 20 years ago!!

Portsmouth? Free spenders, no FFP, Redknapp.

Blackpool? A rare non buying promotion, Hollowhead did well there, very well. Playoffs so these things can go either way.

Anymore?

Point is, there are similarities but no two cases are identical. Different FFP constraints, free spending, ahead of us at the time infrastructure wise, unique philosophy or just bigger clubs...NO magic bullet!

Then look at what has happened to all those teams recently. We have been much more stable than most of them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, RedLionLad said:

Then look at what has happened to all those teams recently. We have been much more stable than most of them.

Oh I agree, we are more stable for sure. That's not a bad thing, building steadily...think Swansea leaving their roots didn't help, but yeah we are above all but Swansea in the pecking order atm and they are getting back to their old philosophy I reckon.

Cardiff probably in an okay place as they didn't spend a huge amount last season, Blackpool wee just at best wildly mismanaged, those parachute payments and very low by PL standards spending should've set them up for years in terms of stability- but still point very much taken

[Kingswood Robin]

But we see these lists all the time (but they did this and they did that) but ultimately they've all found their way of doing it. All we do is list reasons why it's all too difficult. Yes there was previously no FFP, but that applied to us too!

I wouldn't say that's the full list either, from memory, not just PL days but, Bournemouth, Wimbledon, Notts County, Huddersfield, Stoke, QPR, Oldham, Luton, Oxford, Milwall, Middlesborough, Hull, Bolton. Add those to the above and It's getting quite a long list now and they've all their day in the sun. If a stranger looked down the imaginary list of clubs in terms of size, we are the first they'd come to and say, "what, they've never won anything?!". We stand out like a sore thumb. For me, football off the field is a bit like football on the field, you've got to push the rules a bit or you'll get nothing.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Are you telling me Brentford have played in the top flight???!!?

PS. Carlisle have waited longer than us. Just. Not much consolation, that, tbf.    

PPS. And Northampton. Hardly comparing like for like here, are we!

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Are you telling me Brentford have played in the top flight???!!?

I am. Mind, they've yet to progress beyond a quarter-final in either cup. Tin pot

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Kingswood Robin said:

But we see these lists all the time (but they did this and they did that) but ultimately they've all found their way of doing it. All we do is list reasons why it's all too difficult. Yes there was previously no FFP, but that applied to us too!

I wouldn't say that's the full list either, from memory, not just PL days but, Bournemouth, Wimbledon, Notts County, Huddersfield, Stoke, QPR, Oldham, Luton, Oxford, Milwall, Middlesborough, Hull, Bolton. Add those to the above and It's getting quite a long list now and they've all their day in the sun. If a stranger looked down the imaginary list of clubs in terms of size, we are the first they'd come to and say, "what, they've never won anything?!". We stand out like a sore thumb. For me, football off the field is a bit like football on the field, you've got to push the rules a bit or you'll get nothing.

For me, the biggest opportunity lost was 2008. 2008- not just because it was a playoff final but it was quite an open League that year and we were top going into April! I am certain that going into Southampton away we were top.

We also lost to Hull despite taking 4 points off them in the season.

Bournemouth completely flouted and under this system may not have been able to reach the level- they went up under the old rules which j was a fine if promoted and break, and an embargo if stay down and break. No such thing as points deductions then...and PL failed to enforce anything much at all that the EFL wanted as there were two different systems. 

Wimbledon was in past football times, Notts County too- we went for the sun and we got burnt so badly we nearly had no club- think 1982!

Huddersfield, utilised German players sourced via Wagner's scouting knowledge, or local market knowledge- we have no equivalent.

Stoke? Spent pretty big under Coates family, no FFP, better infrastructure at that time.

QPR? How far back do you want to go! They have a greater top flight history than us.

Oldham, yeah fair point. No idea what their expenditure was.

Luton, ditto.

Millwall. Maybe they had a strong academy at that time, when money wasn't be all and end all.

Oxford, Maxwell may have been a factor- and the 1980s was an odd time for football if you look at the League tables and where clubs were, well out of their expected natural positions.

Bolton? Money, no FFP, better infrastructure if we're talking 1998 onwards. More experience of top 2 divisions.

Middlesbrough? Bigger club. Better infrastructure for a lot of the last 20-25 years.

Hull? Better infrastructure in 2008 and parachute payments in subsequent promotions only helped the thing, no FFP thjen either

As we can see, I'd say there are two common threads in a reasonable number of cases- yet no two identical cases:

1. Superior Infrastructure with revenue streams at the time.
2. Owners willing in a time of no FFP to throw a lot.

I know money isn't the be all and end all, but spend £10m in Jan 2008 and we surely go up.

Other big lost opportunity was 2018, but not IMO for top 2 but playoffs- unsure we get top 2 but we should've made top 6 and with our recent Cup runs (Carabao in 2016/17, FA in 2014/15, JPT same season and of course Carabao in 2017/18), we would possibly have been stood in very good stead for those knock out type games.

[Chappers]

We are also the team that has not been in either the top or bottom division for the longest time. A model of consistency

[Bristol Oil Services]

57 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

Middlesbrough? Bigger club. 

 

You would think so. You really would. 

But you go back to when we were both at the top, 76 - 80. And there you find:

 

77: City, 18th, average 23,500   Boro, 12th, average 21,400.

78: City, 17th, 23,300; Boro, 14th, 19,800.

79: City, 13th, av 23,300; Boro, 12th, av 18,400

80: City, 20th (relegated), av 18,900; Boro, 9th, av 18,700.

 

Who is "bigger" during this time? And all that time, Alan Dicks is telling us: crowds need to be bigger, we need more money.

 

Roll on a few years, and both City and Boro nosedive into crisis, but who recovers first/quickest? Long before Boro build a new ground, they leave us miles behind. Because they are "bigger"? I suggest it is not to do with crowds or income. Not at that time, as we can see.

 

We can do the same for Norwich City:

77: they finish 16th, they average 22, 300

78: 13th, 19,300

79: 16th, 17,800

80: 12th, 17,200

 

Norwich bigger than us, back then? They have the infrastructure that Boro went on to build? Are they less of a football "backwater" back then?

 

We can do the same for other similar size clubs who since that time, clubs we competed with 40 years ago, have got back to the top while we have done nothing. With about the same attendances (and therefore income, broadly speaking) four decades ago.

 

My point is that we had, and have always had, enough of what you need to at least get to the top, but we have not done so, for decade after decade. While others, with broadly the same resources, managed to do so. And we have waited and waited, and if we are grumpy, and restless, and unreasonable, now, and beastly to our struggling managers, and the worst fans in the country, then the long long fruitless wait might explain this in part (my initial point I wanted to make). 

If, like Rovers, you have never been good enough, and never had enough of what it takes to get to the top, then it is different to us, who have been good enough, and do have enough, yet fail to realise this potential. 

 

Boro might be "bigger" now, but they were not always so, and it didn't stop them - or others - enjoying a bit of top class football. The story of Bristol City is one of wasted resource, and wasted potential and opportunity.

[Merrick's Marvels]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

For me, the biggest opportunity lost was 2008. 2008- not just because it was a playoff final but it was quite an open League that year and we were top going into April! I am certain that going into Southampton away we were top.

Agreed 2008 felt like a hammer blow. In hindsight, though, I now think it was a blessing in disguise because both on and off the pitch we were nowhere near ready. We'd have been lambs to the slaughter, imo.

As I see it, we've only been fit for purpose as a Championship side - never mind a Premier League one - since our ground was completely refurbed and our Academy attained Level 2 status. That's allowed us to be competitive at Tier 2 level - getting our act together off the pitch. 

If we're ever competitive at Tier 1, it'll be because we've got our act together on the pitch (I'm thinking of our coaches as well as our players here)  

Can't see that happening any time soon, so the wait goes on...     

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

You would think so. You really would. 

But you go back to when we were both at the top, 76 - 80. And there you find:

 

77: City, 18th, average 23,500   Boro, 12th, average 21,400.

78: City, 17th, 23,300; Boro, 14th, 19,800.

79: City, 13th, av 23,300; Boro, 12th, av 18,400

80: City, 20th (relegated), av 18,900; Boro, 9th, av 18,700.

 

Who is "bigger" during this time? And all that time, Alan Dicks is telling us: crowds need to be bigger, we need more money.

 

Roll on a few years, and both City and Boro nosedive into crisis, but who recovers first/quickest? Long before Boro build a new ground, they leave us miles behind. Because they are "bigger"? I suggest it is not to do with crowds or income. Not at that time, as we can see.

 

We can do the same for Norwich City:

77: they finish 16th, they average 22, 300

78: 13th, 19,300

79: 16th, 17,800

80: 12th, 17,200

 

Norwich bigger than us, back then? They have the infrastructure that Boro went on to build? Are they less of a football "backwater" back then?

 

We can do the same for other similar size clubs who since that time, clubs we competed with 40 years ago, have got back to the top while we have done nothing. With about the same attendances (and therefore income, broadly speaking).

 

My point is that we had, and have always had, enough of what you need to at least get to the top, but we have not done so, for decade after decade. While others, with broadly the same resources, managed to do so. And we have waited and waited, and if we are grumpy, and restless, and unreasonable, now, and beastly to our struggling managers, and the worst fans in the country, then the long long fruitless wait might explain this in part (my initial point I wanted to make). 

If, like Rovers, you have never been good enough, and never had enough of what it takes to get to the top, then it is different to us, who have been good enough, and do have enough, yet fail to realise this potential. 

 

Boro might be "bigger" now, but they were not always so, and it didn't stop them - or others - enjoying a bit of top class football. The story of Bristol City is one of wasted resource, and wasted potential and opportunity.

Size of club is an interesting debate...some might say it's attendance based, some might say that it's history, some might say that it's how long said club has been in the top division or the top 2 divisions, some may say it's total trophies- possibly it's a combination of all of these?

Just looked up Wiki, and it states that Middlesbrough have spent a mere two years outside the top 2 divisions. Two! Some would say that makes them a bigger club or that there is a case for them being made to be a bigger club off the back of that...but it's hard to say.

Middlesbrough were neasrly bankrupt mid 1980s, a few years after us. Nearly no more Middlesbrough- dunno if Gibson threw money it at quickly in those days but they did seem to bounce back sharpish.

Norwich would probably be more interesting- we've certainly wasted resource, potential and opportunity.

We, or so I've read on here had the 3rd highest wages in the country in our time in the top flight...certainly shouldn't have gone downwards like that!

[Merrick's Marvels]

18 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Boro might be "bigger" now, but they were not always so, and it didn't stop them - or others - enjoying a bit of top class football. The story of Bristol City is one of wasted resource, and wasted potential and opportunity.

Better leadership and decision making in the boardrooms of Boro, Norwich et al.  

At least now we have a man with a plan and sufficient money and patience to back it up (even if we have doubts about the plan and autocratic tax exiles aren't to everyone's taste!)   

[CityCiderEd]

27 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Boro might be "bigger" now, but they were not always so, and it didn't stop them - or others - enjoying a bit of top class football. The story of Bristol City is one of wasted resource, and wasted potential and opportunity.

So,so true.Other clubs who are or were much smaller than us with smaller crowds seem to be able to make it but we never do.It's great having stability and being well run but a season or two in the prem has got to be worth a shot.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

So,so true.Other clubs who are or were much smaller than us with smaller crowds seem to be able to make it but we never do.It's great having stability and being well run but a season or two in the prem has got to be worth a shot.

Looking at crowds or club size in isolation is a red herring though, IMO.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

For me, the biggest opportunity lost was 2008. 2008- not just because it was a playoff final but it was quite an open League that year and we were top going into April! I am certain that going into Southampton away we were top.

We also lost to Hull despite taking 4 points off them in the season.

Bournemouth completely flouted and under this system may not have been able to reach the level- they went up under the old rules which j was a fine if promoted and break, and an embargo if stay down and break. No such thing as points deductions then...and PL failed to enforce anything much at all that the EFL wanted as there were two different systems. 

Wimbledon was in past football times, Notts County too- we went for the sun and we got burnt so badly we nearly had no club- think 1982!

Huddersfield, utilised German players sourced via Wagner's scouting knowledge, or local market knowledge- we have no equivalent.

Stoke? Spent pretty big under Coates family, no FFP, better infrastructure at that time.

QPR? How far back do you want to go! They have a greater top flight history than us.

Oldham, yeah fair point. No idea what their expenditure was.

Luton, ditto.

Millwall. Maybe they had a strong academy at that time, when money wasn't be all and end all.

Oxford, Maxwell may have been a factor- and the 1980s was an odd time for football if you look at the League tables and where clubs were, well out of their expected natural positions.

Bolton? Money, no FFP, better infrastructure if we're talking 1998 onwards. More experience of top 2 divisions.

Middlesbrough? Bigger club. Better infrastructure for a lot of the last 20-25 years.

Hull? Better infrastructure in 2008 and parachute payments in subsequent promotions only helped the thing, no FFP thjen either

As we can see, I'd say there are two common threads in a reasonable number of cases- yet no two identical cases:

1. Superior Infrastructure with revenue streams at the time.
2. Owners willing in a time of no FFP to throw a lot.

I know money isn't the be all and end all, but spend £10m in Jan 2008 and we surely go up.

Other big lost opportunity was 2018, but not IMO for top 2 but playoffs- unsure we get top 2 but we should've made top 6 and with our recent Cup runs (Carabao in 2016/17, FA in 2014/15, JPT same season and of course Carabao in 2017/18), we would possibly have been stood in very good stead for those knock out type games.

Oldham did very well in large part to their ‘ plastic ‘ pitch at the time.

They also had some very good players .

I don’t agree that we ‘ went for the sun. ‘ when we were last in the First Division.

We only bought in a few experienced players to compliment those already at the club.  One of those, Joe Royle , replaced the injured Cheeseley.

We were one of the highest payers in the division at the time, the price to pay for being an unfashionable club .

What lead to our downfall was the introduction of freedom of contract when we thought we were being clever tying down our star players to long contracts , effectively keeping them at the club for the most part of their careers. Clive Whitehead was on a ten year contract at First Division wages , go figure.

 I believe Lansdown is an accountant and they are not best known for taking big risks.

 

[CityCiderEd]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looking at crowds or club size in isolation is a red herring though, IMO.

I'm not really looking at it in isolation but it surely has to be a factor? Coupled with players,manager and owners it's all part of the package but we always seem to be missing a vital bit of it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, CityCiderEd said:

I'm not really looking at it in isolation but it surely has to be a factor? Coupled with players,manager and owners it's all part of the package but we always seem to be missing a vital bit of it.

I agree, we are always missing a vital bit- never quite comes together at the same time, but even a more risky January 2008 window may have made the difference (whether we'd have been at all ready is a different debate of course).

[Kingswood Robin]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

For me, the biggest opportunity lost was 2008. 2008- not just because it was a playoff final but it was quite an open League that year and we were top going into April! I am certain that going into Southampton away we were top.

We also lost to Hull despite taking 4 points off them in the season.

Bournemouth completely flouted and under this system may not have been able to reach the level- they went up under the old rules which j was a fine if promoted and break, and an embargo if stay down and break. No such thing as points deductions then...and PL failed to enforce anything much at all that the EFL wanted as there were two different systems. 

Wimbledon was in past football times, Notts County too- we went for the sun and we got burnt so badly we nearly had no club- think 1982!

Huddersfield, utilised German players sourced via Wagner's scouting knowledge, or local market knowledge- we have no equivalent.

Stoke? Spent pretty big under Coates family, no FFP, better infrastructure at that time.

QPR? How far back do you want to go! They have a greater top flight history than us.

Oldham, yeah fair point. No idea what their expenditure was.

Luton, ditto.

Millwall. Maybe they had a strong academy at that time, when money wasn't be all and end all.

Oxford, Maxwell may have been a factor- and the 1980s was an odd time for football if you look at the League tables and where clubs were, well out of their expected natural positions.

Bolton? Money, no FFP, better infrastructure if we're talking 1998 onwards. More experience of top 2 divisions.

Middlesbrough? Bigger club. Better infrastructure for a lot of the last 20-25 years.

Hull? Better infrastructure in 2008 and parachute payments in subsequent promotions only helped the thing, no FFP thjen either

As we can see, I'd say there are two common threads in a reasonable number of cases- yet no two identical cases:

1. Superior Infrastructure with revenue streams at the time.
2. Owners willing in a time of no FFP to throw a lot.

I know money isn't the be all and end all, but spend £10m in Jan 2008 and we surely go up.

Other big lost opportunity was 2018, but not IMO for top 2 but playoffs- unsure we get top 2 but we should've made top 6 and with our recent Cup runs (Carabao in 2016/17, FA in 2014/15, JPT same season and of course Carabao in 2017/18), we would possibly have been stood in very good stead for those knock out type games.

What a shame we couldn't have added to your list

Bristol City - Got the couple of players in they needed in 2008 and 2018 and got to the Premier League, because that's what was needed and they did it.

We've had money for a while now, well before FFP was a consideration. Most of the teams you've listed there, we could have done what they did. I don't consider Middlesbrough to be a bigger club really, they just got themselves into the Premier league. Had we have done that when we should have done, we would have had parachute payments as well.

We're not a unique club with unique difficulties. We just haven't struck while the iron was hot.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Oldham did very well in large part to their ‘ plastic ‘ pitch at the time.

They also had some very good players .

I don’t agree that we ‘ went for the sun. ‘ when we were last in the First Division.

We only bought in a few experienced players to compliment those already at the club.  One of those, Joe Royle , replaced the injured Cheeseley.

We were one of the highest payers in the division at the time, the price to pay for being an unfashionable club .

What lead to our downfall was the introduction of freedom of contract when we thought we were being clever tying down our star players to long contracts , effectively keeping them at the club for the most part of their careers. Clive Whitehead was on a ten year contract at First Division wages , go figure.

 I believe Lansdown is an accountant and they are not best known for taking big risks.

 

Thanks, yes had forgotten about plastic pitches...Luton and Oxford may have had them too but can't say I'm sure on that.

When I say went for the sun, maybe that's not quite right but 3rd highest wage bill is nuts. Not saying we had to be title contenders, but to go down to the bottom of the 4th with that..

Yep, I remember reading about that- 10 year deals, no cuts unlike now for relegation, no parachute payments...snookered!

Add to that gates falling across the country as they did in the late 1970s and early 1980s before stabilising...put all that together and it's a bit of a perfect storm and a case of being relegated at the worst possible time?

@Kingswood Robin 2008, certainly. 2018 was more challenging and less likely IMO, we were close to the FFP limit for a start and there was the prospect that clubs could be docked points during the season at that time so I see grounds for a bit of caution too- yet playoffs, we shouldn't have missed out on that. The Sunderland game quite important in that respect IMO, being when it was- real hammerblow to throw away a 3 goal lead at home, win there and we might have started stabilising a bit again.

[CityCiderEd]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree, we are always missing a vital bit- never quite comes together at the same time, but even a more risky January 2008 window may have made the difference (whether we'd have been at all ready is a different debate of course).

I agree fully.If we had pushed the boat out for a top striker in the January window I feel we would have beaten Hull in the play off final.Our top scorer that year I think was Byfield with 8 so the biggest lost opportunity.

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

So,so true.Other clubs who are or were much smaller than us with smaller crowds seem to be able to make it but we never do.It's great having stability and being well run but a season or two in the prem has got to be worth a shot.

Imo we've only been stable enough and well run enough for a shot at promotion in the last year or two - so give it time! (I am not a happy clapper btw)     

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Imo we've only been stable enough and well run enough for a shot at promotion in the last year or two - so give it time! (I am not a happy clapper btw)     

I'm on the fence a bit about that.

Burnley when they went up in 2009, riding the crest of a wave in getting to a Carling Cup semi final beating a number of PL sides and then winning the playoffs (sound familiar??) weren't necessarily ready I don't think- they were a reasonabvkly run club but not one with a major infrastructure- the upside being no huge running costs.

Came back down but did alright and tbh had they kept Coyle they stay up I think, Brian Laws was never going to build on it, and the Parachute Payments stabilised a bit as they were pretty smart and generally have been ever since.

Us? Would we have been so smart...I wonder. I'm absolutely sure now but SL was for a time chasing the dream and had we got into the PL, would he have took a medium-long view or would he have splashed, the splash not work and back to square one a little.

[CityCiderEd]

1 minute ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Imo we've only been stable enough and well run enough for a shot at promotion in the last year or two - so give it time! (I am not a happy clapper btw)     

2008.......the year of the biggest lost opportunity imo. With a decent striker bought in the window we would have beaten Hull.

[WhistleHappy]

1 hour ago, Chappers said:

We are also the team that has not been in either the top or bottom division for the longest time. A model of consistency

Middle of the road …  chirpy, ..chirpy, chirpy cheap cheap ??? 

and.. We Are Robins..  The Muppets even wrote a song for us ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPhuafy0G3I 

 

 

 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

21 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

2008.......the year of the biggest lost opportunity imo. With a decent striker bought in the window we would have beaten Hull.

An example of not being well enough run off the pitch at that time, imo - our scouting network was a cockney taxi driver who only had the job because he was related to the manager.

If we'd had a scouting set up fit for purpose at the time we might have had the resources to find that vital striker (even then, trying to find a goal scorer in January who's in form, available, and at the right price is still a tall order).    

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm on the fence a bit about that.

Burnley when they went up in 2009, riding the crest of a wave in getting to a Carling Cup semi final beating a number of PL sides and then winning the playoffs (sound familiar??) weren't necessarily ready. Did alright, and the Parachute Payments stabilised a bit as they were pretty smart and generally have been ever since.

Yes Burnley are a fantastic example of a small club who've achieved so much more than us in recent times. 

The reason for that? They've been far, far better run in the boardroom, certainly in the last 10-20 years. 

(Having a manager who doesn't need drones, virtual reality headsets, and a bluffer's guide to management speak, to succeed has also helped. Sean Dyche gets nigh-on 100% out of the resources made available to him. If only we had a manager capable of doing the same. I don't want to turn this thread into a slanging match about LJ though!)  

[Kingswood Robin]

30 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Oldham did very well in large part to their ‘ plastic ‘ pitch at the time.

They also had some very good players .

I don’t agree that we ‘ went for the sun. ‘ when we were last in the First Division.

We only bought in a few experienced players to compliment those already at the club.  One of those, Joe Royle , replaced the injured Cheeseley.

We were one of the highest payers in the division at the time, the price to pay for being an unfashionable club .

What lead to our downfall was the introduction of freedom of contract when we thought we were being clever tying down our star players to long contracts , effectively keeping them at the club for the most part of their careers. Clive Whitehead was on a ten year contract at First Division wages , go figure.

 I believe Lansdown is an accountant and they are not best known for taking big risks.

 

I'm not sure the plastic pitch helped Preston much (they've been waiting to get back to the top longer than us!)

The accountants I know never take any risks!

I just wish we would push the boat out more, just a bit

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

An example of not being well enough run off the pitch at that time, imo - our scouting network was a cockney taxi driver who only had the job because he was related to the manager.

If we'd had a scouting set up fit for purpose at the time we might have had the resources to find that vital striker (even then, trying to find a goal scorer in January who's in form, available, and at the right price is still a tall order).    

Yes Burnley are a fantastic example of a small club who've achieved so much more than us in recent times. 

The reason for that? They've been far, far better run in the boardroom, certainly in the last 10-20 years. 

(Having a manager who doesn't need drones, virtual reality headsets, and a bluffer's guide to management speak, to succeed has also helped. Sean Dyche gets nigh-on 100% out of the resources made available to him. If only we had a manager capable of doing the same. I don't want to turn this thread into a slanging match about LJ though!)  

Sometimes it can be a bit of right place, right time- right man, right time etc too though.

You're right. Burnley great example, maximise what they have really well (think they do have players or have signed players though to add a bit more flair or finesse into their game while still being tight but that's a minor point). Very well run at the board room level.

Still, had they not gone up in 2009, I wonder if that chance would've come around again any time soon...riding crest of a wave, struck whern the iron was very hot- bit like us 2 years ago, but them with less infrastructure.