Stumbling!!

[Davefevs]

Has injury, form (or lack of it), forced Lee to stumble on the system and personnel he is going go forward with.  Whilst not perfect by any means yesterday the move from 442, which we never seem to be consistent with against our Championship midfield overloads, to 4141 seemed to be a much more efficient system to get our midfield (1) closer to Diedhiou (2) numerically equal and (3) protection from a player playing a true DM role. Some pics:

First 30-35 mins:

Massive gap between CM and forwards, Fam not closing down very well, allowed Wigan to pass through the lines, drew Smith or Massengo out and we looked ragged out of possession.  With the ball, Wigan pushed tight to Smith and Massengo, meaning long ball to Fam, and our midfield too far away from the ball to close / retrieve the ball. Repeat, repeat.

The change, LJ didn’t mention it post match, but can only assume it came from the sideline?

Shades of 17/18’s shape:

Smith in the Pack role, never leaving the pocket in front of Baker and Williams.  One up front, but a very different beast, Diedhiou not Reid.  4 midfielders in touch / close(r) proximity to the striker, able to break beyond their markers, knowing protection behind to do this.  Wigan midfielders now having to turn and chase their opponents towards their own goal, which no midfielder’s like.  Up to that point, they weren’t a threat of running beyond them.

The second goal a case in point:

1. Fam wins a tussle on halfway line and spins

2. Weimann bursting f/w from his “midfield role” receives the pass

3. Pato senses the option is on to get the ball in space

4. Weimann perfect chipped pass to Pato in acres (I thought Pato was gonna hit the left foot volley)

5. Fam hasn’t rested on his laurels and is breaking beyond their backline

6. Sublime lob pass from Pato (only him or Palmer capable of that imho)

7. First time volley from Fam, which I don’t think he’s been given enough credit for

Final thoughts:

What does this mean for the squad?

a. Balance

b. Ability to play all of the squad (1) no back 5 excluding Eliasson (2) if Weimann can play the midfield role, so can Palmer, as could Pato (as he did in 17/18, etc

c. Rotation through fatigue or form or injury.

Re that final point, the squad appears to have more depth all of a sudden, Pato has helped that.  Other players are gonna have to work hard to push their case forward for inclusion.

Still a lot of work to do, but some huge positives from a poor(ish) display.

Possibly easing pressure of recruitment too.

 

 

[Buster Footman's T shirt]

I agree mostly with this. Particularly away from home. More solidity and gives protection to back 4 so more solidity whilst also ensuring strker not isolated. Allows room for Eliason and also Pato/Palmer so good competition. Will need cover or replacement for Fam this month. If Fam continues his current good form you could argue that this is the formation that gets the best out of him

[Tipps69]

@Davefevs Could your wife not just of got you some crayons ? for Christmas?

[steviestevieneville]

Does anyone have faith in him sticking to it though. I don’t . He loves change for changes sake. Hope I’m wrong 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, steviestevieneville said:

Does anyone have faith in him sticking to it though. I don’t . He loves change for changes sake. Hope I’m wrong 

Would love to see him stick with it, even if perhaps at home it’s more 4411.

We have the players:

 

[bcfc01]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Would love to see him stick with it, even if perhaps at home it’s more 4411.

We have the players:

 

 

Not at all sure about that.

Away from home it may well be fine, but at home that looks like a team set up not to lose.

I would revert to 3-5-2 home and away which did us just fine up till recently.

 

 

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

 

Not at all sure about that.

Away from home it may well be fine, but at home that looks like a team set up not to lose.

I would revert to 3-5-2 home and away which did us just fine up till recently.

 

 

 

 

 

It’s not meant to at all.  Need people (not aimed at you per se) to get over seeing one striker and thinking it’s defensive.  It’s about getting players closer to Fam progressively.

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

It’s not meant to at all.  Need people (not aimed at you per se) to get over seeing one striker and thinking it’s defensive.  It’s about getting players closer to Fam progressively.

Yep - not averse to one up front at all.

But  3-5-2 did us fine earlier in the season and I'd like to see us revert to a version of that - maybe a 3-5-1-1.

                            Bentley

               Kalas    Moore    Baker

Hunt                                               Dasilva

                           Nagy

       Brownhill                      Massengo 

               Palmer or Paterson

                       Weimann

 

All about opinions..

 

[ScottishRed]

11 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Yep - not averse to one up front at all.

But  3-5-2 did us fine earlier in the season and I'd like to see us revert to a version of that - maybe a 3-5-1-1.

                            Bentley

               Kalas    Moore    Baker

Hunt                                               Dasilva

                           Nagy

       Brownhill                      Massengo 

               Palmer or Paterson

                       Weimann

 

All about opinions..

 

If and it’s a BIG if, we could get someone in that formation to replace Weimann, I like it.

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Yep - not averse to one up front at all.

But  3-5-2 did us fine earlier in the season and I'd like to see us revert to a version of that - maybe a 3-5-1-1.

                            Bentley

               Kalas    Moore    Baker

Hunt                                               Dasilva

                           Nagy

       Brownhill                      Massengo 

               Palmer or Paterson

                       Weimann

 

All about opinions..

 

Yeah, totally.  Funny enough that system isn’t far off the side that went to the Hawthorns this season.

Bentley | Pereira, Wright, Williams, Baker, O’Dowda | Brownhill, Smith, Nagy | Palmer | Weimann

If you add in your selections it has a lot of merits.

[The Constant Rabbit]

56 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Yep - not averse to one up front at all.

But  3-5-2 did us fine earlier in the season and I'd like to see us revert to a version of that - maybe a 3-5-1-1.

                            Bentley

               Kalas    Moore    Baker

Hunt                                               Dasilva

                           Nagy

       Brownhill                      Massengo 

               Palmer or Paterson

                       Weimann

 

All about opinions..

 

I agree with @Davefevs - it's the wingbacks that undo us.

Hunt when coming back gets sucked into our own box leaving 10 - 15 m EVERY time for his oppo player to hit the byline or attack the box.

Pedro is simply not an attacking full-back.

He is clearly uncomfortable, and it's affecting his performances. I doubt if he went past his man at all in the last 2 games.  Jay is quite good, but you can't have 50% of your wingbacks failing - hence the use of COD as sub all the time.

Stick with a solid back 4 for the rest of the season - it works. If Hunt and Pedro are still off-form, I'd be happy with Moore to push out wide, but we have Kalas,Williams, Baker, Moore, Hunt,Jay and Pedro - and we should be able to keep a rigid back 4 line.

And never see COD again hopefully.

Ditch the wingbacks!

[Phileas Fogg]

Lots of really interesting considered analysis here Dave, but what if he didn't 'stumble' upon it and just got it right? Sometimes I feel people think Johnson is a moron and anything he does correctly is either lucky, an accident or he 'stumbles' upon a solution, he isn't perfect but he clearly understands football. 

[bcfc01]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, totally.  Funny enough that system isn’t far off the side that went to the Hawthorns this season.

Bentley | Pereira, Wright, Williams, Baker, O’Dowda | Brownhill, Smith, Nagy | Palmer | Weimann

If you add in your selections it has a lot of merits.

And we got thrashed 

[spudski]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Has injury, form (or lack of it), forced Lee to stumble on the system and personnel he is going go forward with.  Whilst not perfect by any means yesterday the move from 442, which we never seem to be consistent with against our Championship midfield overloads, to 4141 seemed to be a much more efficient system to get our midfield (1) closer to Diedhiou (2) numerically equal and (3) protection from a player playing a true DM role. Some pics:

First 30-35 mins:

Massive gap between CM and forwards, Fam not closing down very well, allowed Wigan to pass through the lines, drew Smith or Massengo out and we looked ragged out of possession.  With the ball, Wigan pushed tight to Smith and Massengo, meaning long ball to Fam, and our midfield too far away from the ball to close / retrieve the ball. Repeat, repeat.

The change, LJ didn’t mention it post match, but can only assume it came from the sideline?

Shades of 17/18’s shape:

Smith in the Pack role, never leaving the pocket in front of Baker and Williams.  One up front, but a very different beast, Diedhiou not Reid.  4 midfielders in touch / close(r) proximity to the striker, able to break beyond their markers, knowing protection behind to do this.  Wigan midfielders now having to turn and chase their opponents towards their own goal, which no midfielder’s like.  Up to that point, they weren’t a threat of running beyond them.

The second goal a case in point:

1. Fam wins a tussle on halfway line and spins

2. Weimann bursting f/w from his “midfield role” receives the pass

3. Pato senses the option is on to get the ball in space

4. Weimann perfect chipped pass to Pato in acres (I thought Pato was gonna hit the left foot volley)

5. Fam hasn’t rested on his laurels and is breaking beyond their backline

6. Sublime lob pass from Pato (only him or Palmer capable of that imho)

7. First time volley from Fam, which I don’t think he’s been given enough credit for

Final thoughts:

What does this mean for the squad?

a. Balance

b. Ability to play all of the squad (1) no back 5 excluding Eliasson (2) if Weimann can play the midfield role, so can Palmer, as could Pato (as he did in 17/18, etc

c. Rotation through fatigue or form or injury.

Re that final point, the squad appears to have more depth all of a sudden, Pato has helped that.  Other players are gonna have to work hard to push their case forward for inclusion.

Still a lot of work to do, but some huge positives from a poor(ish) display.

Possibly easing pressure of recruitment too.

 

 

For me...the introduction of Famara completely changed the structure of our playing style.

And you are right when you say ' fit around him'.

From his signing onwards, we've lost our way. Not sure of the exact timelines, but where does Eliasson, Palmer and Famara fit in?

Fans say play Palmer, others say play Eliasson. Yet look at Famaras background and his efficiency is not prolific to either type of supplier.

Imo...we looked at a 'Physical' presence within our budget and tried to develop him.

It has had a negative effect on the rest of the team.

I'll go as far as to say his introduction was the start of our muddled recruitment.

We are a team of talented individuals that don't fit one another offensively.

If it were me I'd get rid of all our forward line...it negates the rest of the team.

[Robbored]

Interesting points there.......but has anyone noticed how much more effective Fam has been in the last couple of games?

He seem to be adopting a more ‘go for it’ or ‘shoot on sight’ approach as we saw with some of efforts at goal particularly the one at Wigan which was unfortunately disallowed.

I don’t remember seeing him take on efforts like those in previous games. Maybe LJ has encouraged him to be more selfish when in sight of the goal............

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Interesting points there.......but has anyone noticed how much more effective Fam has been in the last couple of games?

He seem to be adopting a more ‘go for it’ or ‘shoot on sight’ approach as we saw with some of efforts at goal particularly the one at Wigan which was unfortunately disallowed.

I don’t remember seeing him take on efforts like those in previous games. Maybe LJ has encouraged him to be more selfish when in sight of the goal............

And then look at how recruiting Nketiah would fit in with Famara, Palmer and Eliasson...it doesn't match or compliment.

It's literally looking at a young guy who we could loan who scores.

Yet what does Nketiah thrive on?

Low passes into the box to basically tap in.

He doesn't offer any other attributes apart from being absolutely effecient at that, in a Billy Sharp way.

Look at every Striker we are associated with...apart from scoring goals, how do they fit in with us?

Can our Midfield etc create scoring chances for each individual?

Do they compliment?

I can completely understand Bielsa not using Nketiah, because he didn't fit. He was literally a plan b alternative.

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

And then look at how recruiting Nketiah would fit in with Famara, Palmer and Eliasson...it doesn't match or compliment.

It's literally looking at a young guy who we could loan who scores.

Yet what does Nketiah thrive on?

Low passes into the box to basically tap in.

He doesn't offer any other attributes apart from being absolutely effecient at that, in a Billy Sharp way.

Look at every Striker we are associated with...apart from scoring goals, how do they fit in with us?

Can our Midfield etc create scoring chances for each individual?

Do they compliment?

I can completely understand Bielsa not using Nketiah, because he didn't fit. He was literally a plan b alternative.

Tammy Abraham.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Lots of really interesting considered analysis here Dave, but what if he didn't 'stumble' upon it and just got it right? Sometimes I feel people think Johnson is a moron and anything he does correctly is either lucky, an accident or he 'stumbles' upon a solution, he isn't perfect but he clearly understands football. 

I did start my first sentence as a question!!  I don’t think he is a moron, but I struggle with how we try to play too often.

Don't get me wrong, my post is one in hindsight, but based on observations throughout the game.  I’m an amateur, a novice, but I would like to know what analysis/ prep (@hodge???)  was done ahead of the game to plan stopping Wigan passing out from the back, and entering our half so easily....which meant we couldn’t pass our way out either because we had increased distances between midfield and attack  That sounds like I think I know best.  I don’t, but I do like to question!!  8 minutes into the game though, we’d barely had the ball, and they had played the ball around the 70:30 press effort of Weimann and Diedhiou respectively.  It continued!

It felt like 30 minutes of pain, that allowed Wigan to take charge. It felt like Sheffield Wednesday all over again, but without the threat.  Fantastic that a couple of bits of quality saved the day.

Perhaps the plan was to impose our 442 on them, start fast, etc, but it failed...and therefore plan b was enacted.

I guess we wait and see what team is selected v Barnsley (Shrewsbury is a rotation game imho - he can have a free shot in that game)

[Phileas Fogg]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I did start my first sentence as a question!!  I don’t think he is a moron, but I struggle with how we try to play too often.

Don't get me wrong, my post is one in hindsight, but based on observations throughout the game.  I’m an amateur, a novice, but I would like to know what analysis/ prep (@hodge???)  was done ahead of the game to plan stopping Wigan passing out from the back, and entering our half so easily....which meant we couldn’t pass our way out either because we had increased distances between midfield and attack  That sounds like I think I know best.  I don’t, but I do like to question!!  8 minutes into the game though, we’d barely had the ball, and they had played the ball around the 70:30 press effort of Weimann and Diedhiou respectively.  It continued!

It felt like 30 minutes of pain, that allowed Wigan to take charge. It felt like Sheffield Wednesday all over again, but without the threat.  Fantastic that a couple of bits of quality saved the day.

Perhaps the plan was to impose our 442 on them, start fast, etc, but it failed...and therefore plan b was enacted.

I guess we wait and see what team is selected v Barnsley (Shrewsbury is a rotation game imho - he can have a free shot in that game)

Wasn’t necessarily having a go at you, just commenting generally. Your analysis in the OP is very interesting and raises lots of valid questions - he may well have stumbled upon it for all we know!

I think though that there is an impression on this forum at times that some people seem to imply good things Johnson does are primarily down to luck/circumstance rather than planning or tactics. People seem to say this about our period in 17/18 when we had Paterson and Reid playing so well together, I think it’s a bit unfair to him really. 

I too am very interested to see his Shrewsbury lineup. There’s quite a lot of pressure on him to win that game in my opinion, perhaps more than the weekend. The fans obviously want the Liverpool tie but the board will demand it from a commercial/profile POV. If we lose he will be under a lot of pressure again despite Saturday’s result.

[DT The Optimist]

 Mr Fews

Are you sure your not LJ in disguise !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/51085681

Here are two players who played at highest level (far higher than LJ ever reached) . Simply put a rocket up their chuffs.  

 easy really 

 

[Phileas Fogg]

8 minutes ago, DT The Optimist said:

 Mr Fews

Are you sure your not LJ in disguise !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/51085681

Here are two players who played at highest level (far higher than LJ ever reached) . Simply put a rocket up their chuffs.  

 easy really 

 

Pearson reminds me a bit of Cotterill - on the face of it looks like an old school manager who rules with an iron fist. Both far more tactically astute than given credit for and often quite gifted at bringing together a good blend of players. 

Both a bit mad too of course. 

I think that form of tough leadership can really work, but it can't be your only approach. 

Obviously he has huge resources at his disposal which makes it easier, but I find Klopp's management style fascinating. I'd be really interested to watch a fly on the wall documentary about how he manages that Liverpool side.

Sometimes though - two managers who you'd assume are polar opposites are more similar than we'd ever imagine !

 

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Pearson reminds me a bit of Cotterill - on the face of it looks like an old school manager who rules with an iron fist. Both far more tactically astute than given credit for and often quite gifted at bringing together a good blend of players. 

Both a bit mad too of course. 

I think that form of tough leadership can really work, but it can't be your only approach. 

Obviously he has huge resources at his disposal which makes it easier, but I find Klopp's management style fascinating. I'd be really interested to watch a fly on the wall documentary about how he manages that Liverpool side.

Sometimes though - two managers who you'd assume are polar opposites are more similar than we'd ever imagine !

 

All three fundamentally start at the same point. The game is simple. This is how we will approach it. These are the principles. Klopp uses a model of five elements. So does Guardiola and similarly Warnock the paths after are divergent.  

[DT The Optimist]

Some good points from all, but a good team is built around  the spine of a team. 
A strong keeper, solid  uncompromising centre backs, a powerhouse  talented midfield, great forward play. Sort that you got a team.  Every one of our promotion teams in the past has had a solid spine to the side, can anyone say in all honesty we have that currently.  For variety reasons always chopping changing here
 

[Cidre Monita]

Our best footballing performance in years was when we beat Manchester United. We have since spent millions, signed dozens of players. To end up looking disjointed and playing a most unmodernised long ball low possession type of football.

Just look at the team that beat Man United , with a  list of players LJ and MA dumped (Steele, Flint, Maggers, ,Pack) or would dump if they could and are back up now (Baker, Patto,Wright,) or in some cases forced to sell for FFP (Bryan and Reid) .  Look at the subs bench. That squad produced the best football of the LJ era. 

#BristolCity v Man Utd: Steele, Wright, Flint, Baker, Magnússon, Brownhill, Smith, Pack, Bryan, Paterson, Reid. Subs: Fielding, Vyner, Kelly, Eliasson, Garita, Lemonheigh-Evans, Taylor

 

Where did all go wrong  ? 

 

 

 

•  

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, DT The Optimist said:

 Mr Fews

Are you sure your not LJ in disguise !

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/51085681

Here are two players who played at highest level (far higher than LJ ever reached) . Simply put a rocket up their chuffs.  

 easy really 

 

Ha ha.

I think you’re suggesting my OP is overcomplicating it like a certain head-coach might?  

A skilled coach will analyse the problem, plan the solution and then deliver it succinctly to his players.

I never quite understand why our system has to be so intricate that it takes several hours of training to get used to.  That to me suggests it’s too rigid, e.g. when ball is here, you should be there, nor does it allow for football intelligence, instinct, nor does it cater for an opposition that might also be using its football intelligence and instinct, and therefore doing something different to what you’ve planned for.  If the patterns of play are so intricate, they must also be numerous to deal with various scenarios, and I’m already imagining a footballer’s brain being overloaded....to the point they are thinking too much about the job in hand.

It is why (despite this post being about a system) that I’m not really a systems person, think it is more about the players, combinations of players, partnerships, etc.

And to your point, you’ve got to be able to b0ll0ck a player when it’s justified, not just because they’re young, or put an arm round them when it’s appropriate too.

[Lrrr]

21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Don't get me wrong, my post is one in hindsight, but based on observations throughout the game.  I’m an amateur, a novice, but I would like to know what analysis/ prep (@hodge???)  was done ahead of the game to plan stopping Wigan passing out from the back, and entering our half so easily

That would all be based on the idea that we wanted to stop Wigan from passing out from the back and making it hard to get into our half, to me it seems we wanted to invite Wigan into our half to open up space to attack into. I think this is reflected in the goals we scored, 1st goal longish ball forward and within a couple of passes we've scored, 2nd goal is a quickish break as well, looking back through the goals from Wigan's last several games a significant number of them come shortly after a turnover and breaking on Wigan. So quite likely this could have been highlighted and looking to turnover and attack. Team selection would indicate this to me as well Korey/Massengo in the middle both good at winning the ball back and then Weimann, Watkins and Eliasson with Hunt/Dasilva as wing backs all capable of breaking forward with pace, Paterson off the bench too.

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, hodge said:

That would all be based on the idea that we wanted to stop Wigan from passing out from the back and making it hard to get into our half, to me it seems we wanted to invite Wigan into our half to open up space to attack into. I think this is reflected in the goals we scored, 1st goal longish ball forward and within a couple of passes we've scored, 2nd goal is a quickish break as well, looking back through the goals from Wigan's last several games a significant number of them come shortly after a turnover and breaking on Wigan. So quite likely this could have been highlighted and looking to turnover and attack. Team selection would indicate this to me as well Korey/Massengo in the middle both good at winning the ball back and then Weimann, Watkins and Eliasson with Hunt/Dasilva as wing backs all capable of breaking forward with pace, Paterson off the bench too.

Appreciate the response, Thanks, but would question - if that really was the tactic, what evidence for the counter-attack was there in the first 70+ minutes?  I think that the system change (30-35mins in) also reflects this was not the game plan to let them have easy possession into our half, because that change forced them (Wigan) to go more back to front from that point.  First goal wasn’t a counter-attack, was a pumped ball forward.  

But opinions mate.

I am happy to accept that you often need to take the sting out of the opposition early doors, but it 32 mins for us to fashion 2 passing moves of any substance (1 flashed cross across the box, the other Fam’s header over)

Just noticed (on a bigger screen) that Fam nutmegged the defender for Pato’s goal.

[Buster Footman's T shirt]

3 hours ago, Psychopomp said:

Our best footballing performance in years was when we beat Manchester United. We have since spent millions, signed dozens of players. To end up looking disjointed and playing a most unmodernised long ball low possession type of football.

Just look at the team that beat Man United , with a  list of players LJ and MA dumped (Steele, Flint, Maggers, ,Pack) or would dump if they could and are back up now (Baker, Patto,Wright,) or in some cases forced to sell for FFP (Bryan and Reid) .  Look at the subs bench. That squad produced the best football of the LJ era. 

#BristolCity v Man Utd: Steele, Wright, Flint, Baker, Magnússon, Brownhill, Smith, Pack, Bryan, Paterson, Reid. Subs: Fielding, Vyner, Kelly, Eliasson, Garita, Lemonheigh-Evans, Taylor

 

Where did all go wrong  ? 

 

 

 

•  

Looking at that subs bench the answer is obviously that it started going tits up when we let big Arnie Garita go

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

Looking at that subs bench the answer is obviously that it started going tits up when we let big Arnie Garita go

Crikey, hadn’t realised Conor Lemony-Evans was on the bench.

[Murraysrightplum]

Stop drawing on the Fing Subbuteo board!