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Badger08

LJ Outers - Help convince me

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2 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Completely respect your opinion. In a nutshell, I believe LJ has raised us to a position we could have only dreamt about only 5 years ago.  I'm saying, give him until the end of the season, then lets evaluate.  Calling for his head now isn't helping anyone. 

I can understand that viewpoint but the big difference is the £25m annual operating loss that is being stumped up.  Tinnion didn't have anything like that and nor did Cotterill.  Hell if Steve Coppell had been offered those sort of open purse strings he'd have stayed rather than scampering off.

It's that money that has brought us to where we are; and unless the Lansdowns wish to keep pouring that away every year then they should be looking very closely indeed at a unique situation that presents itself:

A vastly experienced manager with a long track record of Championship promotions is looking for one last opportunity before retiring.

 

This opportunity will not present itself again.  Leave it to May and the opportunity will have evaporated.

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Can't argue with that mate.  I think (maybe) we are closer to the same page than we think.  If Johnson doesn't get us in the playoffs this season, imo he has to go.  It has been, and will be about progression for me, but the only way to definitively measure that is over the course of a season.  Sacking now on a bunch of ifs and buts doesn't make sense to me.  Obviously this would be different if we were sat in 16th.   

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  1.  
1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  Anyone with proven ability to work with championship players, young talented players and who can manage the egos that go along with it. Someone who doesn't isolate players after poor performances and out them in the press to shield himself. He is the manager and he is therefore responsible. Someone who is able to select a formation to play, practise it and then implement it instead of chopping and changing every week.How can we perfect a team when we have no consistency - Players must be struggling themselves we change formation 5 times a match. A manager that is able to help unlock the raw talents of a young player rather than failing to do this, then resorting to saying we need more players and spending more players - further boosting our squad numbers and failing to get the best out of what is already here.
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? Based off us being in the playoffs earlier in the season, before the wheels started to come off - back in the play offs and not struggling against the teams below us
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone? Yes. What people get so caught up in is the idea of being on match of the day, reaching 'The Promised Land', watching us play Man Utd and Man City every week etc etc. However, all this essentially falls back to us wanting to be entertained! Being able to watch MOTD for evening entertainment, watching us against the biggest teams is the exciting possibility of the scenes when we beat one of them, reaching the premier league - to grow our reputation worldwide (gain a sense of achievement and share the promotion with likeminded people) - again falls down to happiness and a want for enjoyment. What a lot of us don't like is that this season hasn't been entertaining - boring football, weekly drivvel from our manager in post match interviews - I do not believe it is a 'results business'. The world has gone mad for the premier league money and forgotten the real importance is entertainment as that is all football is. I'd rather see us playing exciting football in league one than the drivvel Johnson is producing.
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? No, but this is not the case is it? I don't have faith in Johnson, the players don't have faith in Johnson. We have had so many players come and go under LJ who are premier league standard, much greater ability than our current league position suggests and yet he coaches all their flair that we have been missing out of them and then ships them out again.
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? If we played entertaining football and finished similar league position then I would be satisfied.

 

The above questions however don't answer my main concerns and are warped towards Johnson staying. Let me ask you:

What is is about Lee Johnsons career that makes you think he is the man for the job?

Managerial Career:

  1. Took Oldham to 15th position in League One, then into the top 10 the following season before moving to Barnsley
  2. Took Barnsley to 12th in League One
  3. Kept a strong but under performing Bristol City side in the Championship to 52 points and safety (Flint, Ayling, Baker, Bryan, Smith, Pack, Freeman, Reid, Tomlin, Kodjia)
  4. Took a strong Bristol City side to 17th place in the table with 54 points (Bryan, Magnússon, Flint, Matthews, Wright, O'neil, Smith, Brownhill, O'Dowda, Reid, Pack, Hegeler, cotterill, Abraham, Tomlin, Paterson)
  5. 11th in Championship despite playing some of our best football - failed to motivate and keep a strong side in play-offs despite being in automatic spots around christmas
  6. Took City to 8th in the Championship Very strong squad with several moving up to premier league after

Win percentage as a manager:

Oldham - 35%

Barnsley - 39%

Bristol City - 39%

On his Wikipedia page his 2 greatest successes are League One Manager of the Month in 2016 and Championship Manager of the Month in 2017.

He is one of the most frustrating managers to have run our club:

  • Harps on about identity, but even Radio Bristol was miffed as to what this was last night
  • No ability to shake his losing streaks
  • Some of the most unentertaining football I've ever seen at the gate
  • Awful home record
  • He has had the backing to bring in loads of quality players and yet can't reach the play offs

All these people who say we have had to continually sell our best players ... This is the same for all championship clubs or teams that aren't the big few in the premier league. what is your response to the counter argument that over the past few years we have had countless top quality players:

Tomlin, Kalas, Webster, Abraham, Flint, Bryan, Reid, Ayling, Freeman, Kodjia, Dasilva, palmer, baker, Kelly are all top experienced championship/premier league quality players Johnson has had the chance to work with. Many at the same time and yet he has never managed to get us into the play offs. It's not that we haven't had the quality in our team to make the play offs, it seems more aparent that we don't have the manager who is able to get these players playing togetehr successfully and draw the raw talent out of the Palmers, Freemans etc etc

When we have had such quality of late, why is it that we continually play poor football and haven't been able to get the right tactics to unlock the winning formula? Why is it based off his measly managerial record that you want to continually back Johnson to do this? We beat Man United rotated squad 3 years ago? 

 

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Forgetting the fact that I (like most), never rated the bloke.
IMO his demeanour suggests he has given up on the side, he obviously has no motivational skills towards the players nowadays (critical for any manager). How could he not get that side focused for that game last night?
There feels like there is no will/no fire 🔥 in his belly. What was he doing giving the players “a few days off” recently after another mediocre defeat? Quite frankly his tendency to usually throw players under the bus in the post match presser, when they lose is not good enough. You need to work with the players, the players need to work with him - and that ain’t gonna happen. His style of football/the way he sets the side up for home games is awful.

He has spunked away so much £s on pointless signings. I would like to see a manager who will command respect from players, players who will die for the shirt, who will step up when needed (like last nite).

The blithering baffoon will be gone but it might take until the summer unfortunately. Johnson out.

Edited by GasDestroyer
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1 minute ago, Badger08 said:

Can't argue with that mate.  I think (maybe) we are closer to the same page than we think.  If Johnson doesn't get us in the playoffs this season, imo he has to go.  It has been, and will be about progression for me, but the only way to definitively measure that is over the course of a season.  Sacking now on a bunch of ifs and buts doesn't make sense to me.  Obviously this would be different if we were sat in 16th.   

If for example we don’t win our next 3, even if that’s 3 draws, we could be 7 points off the play-offs, and probably 12th/13th.  I would act then.

We are in a scenario, where constant evaluation and re-evaluation needs to happen.

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42 minutes ago, Badger08 said:
  1. If we there was a change, I would agree that Houghton would be my choice.  Would he come here though? I would argue the case that Brighton was a project very similar to us now.  New modern stadium, decent supportive owner and a side that was seen as a football backwater.  Totally agree with Chris Houghton there. 
  2. So why the change
  3. Same, agree, if it wasn't for the league position and LJ's past football I would be on the LJ out side. 
  4. You would honestly want to sack LJ if we were 3rd in 5 weeks? Be honest with me? I know it hurts the ego, but surely you won't want a change if we were 3rd.  The whole of the footballing world would laugh
  5. I can't agree with you at all there.  The squad isn't a mess.  I bet if I looked back through your posts you were buzzin about signing DaSilva, Kalas and Palmer.  He's also signed on of the best keepers I've seen along with one of the best young prospects in Europe.  To say the squad is in a mess, simply isn't true. 

So you ask us to give reasons then argue about every reason that fans have

how can your mind be changed if you won’t accept anyone else’s opinion?

this thread may as well be locked as it’s going to be a bitchfest and a shitshow between two rival sets again

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6 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

This opportunity will not present itself again.  Leave it to May and the opportunity will have evaporated

Fair point. 

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

It's not an extra point. Our GD is pitiful. It is therefore 2 points and as you can't get 2 points in a match it is actually 3 points and that is if we win and everyone loses.

This 1 point thing is driving me nuts !!!!

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If for example we don’t win our next 3, even if that’s 3 draws, we could be 7 points off the play-offs, and probably 12th/13th.  I would act then.

We are in a scenario, where constant evaluation and re-evaluation needs to happen.

Yeah, you are exactly where I am.  EXACTLY 

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

It's not an extra point. Our GD is pitiful. It is therefore 2 points and as you can't get 2 points in a match it is actually 3 points and that is if we win and everyone loses.

This 1 point thing is driving me nuts !!!!

Haha.  I get that.  One win then.  

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

Why? If you are happy with Johnson as our Manager and get pleasure and pride from the team he has created and their performances on the pitch then good for you. I cannot.

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

You can have all of the money you like, it doesn't mean you will improve, just ask West Ham, Tottenham and Manchester United.  Obviously money helps, but money won't simply get you promoted.  I believe, there has been more in Johnsons reign than simply having money to spend, unless you think that a manager's job is 2nd to money?  

I mean sure you can provide examples of money not helping, but I'm willing to bet majority of the time it does. I don't believe its that black or white but I believe money has played a large part in our progress. 

Correct me if i'm wrong but you're basically saying if SL gave LJ 30m to spend this January it wouldn't make a bloody huge difference to our promotion chances? Because it of course would. Money has been thrown at LJ. 

Edited by Sturny
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50 minutes ago, Badger08 said:
  1. If we there was a change, I would agree that Houghton would be my choice.  Would he come here though? I would argue the case that Brighton was a project very similar to us now.  New modern stadium, decent supportive owner and a side that was seen as a football backwater.  Totally agree with Chris Houghton there. 
  2. So why the change
  3. Same, agree, if it wasn't for the league position and LJ's past football I would be on the LJ out side. 
  4. You would honestly want to sack LJ if we were 3rd in 5 weeks? Be honest with me? I know it hurts the ego, but surely you won't want a change if we were 3rd.  The whole of the footballing world would laugh
  5. I can't agree with you at all there.  The squad isn't a mess.  I bet if I looked back through your posts you were buzzin about signing DaSilva, Kalas and Palmer.  He's also signed on of the best keepers I've seen along with one of the best young prospects in Europe.  To say the squad is in a mess, simply isn't true. 

Do you mean CHRIS HUGHTON?

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  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution) Chris Hughton, Neal Warnock, Mick McCarthy. All would have more passion, demand more respect from the squad and are proven as winners
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? Top half with entertaining football
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?Yes, he has run his race and reached his ceiling
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? Yes but this is a fantasy
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 3 years

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2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

I mean sure you can provide examples of money not helping, but I'm willing to bet majority of the time it does. I don't believe its that black or white but I believe money has played a large part in our progress. 

Correct me if i'm wrong but you're basically saying if SL gave LJ 30m to spend this January it wouldn't make a bloody huge difference to our promotion chances? Because it of course would. Money has been thrown at LJ. 

I get the argument, and somewhat agree, but what I don't agree with is that LJ hasn't had a significant input into this club, even with all of the money.  He has made a lot of money too, just to play devils advocate, which is mainly what I've been doing to be honest. 

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Someone seriously suggest Thomas frank as new manager?! Brentford have arguably the best squad in the league, a new stadium on the way and also he signed a new deal 2 days ago!

Gareth Ainsworth would be my shout 

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2 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Do you mean CHRIS HUGHTON?

You obviously knew who I mean't, but I admire your successful shot at belittling. Gold star is in the post. 

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57 minutes ago, Big C said:

Suggesting Warnock to the end of the season is a crazy. I could understand it if we were in a relegation battle but we're not. If he came in and did get us promoted then what? He's not a long term solution and if he were to leave any new manager would have to assess his squad for a Premier league campaign without actually seeing them in a match situation. I know its not impossible to do but it does make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Do you know what, after 40 years of achieving nothing and having never experienced top flight football in my 36 years here on earth, I think I'd be willing to take a chance on that particular problem.

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12 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

It's not an extra point. Our GD is pitiful. It is therefore 2 points and as you can't get 2 points in a match it is actually 3 points and that is if we win and everyone loses.

This 1 point thing is driving me nuts !!!!

Exactly!

Have a thousand "likes"😄

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21 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

The 1000 pounds I spend on 3 season tickets every year no longer feels like it represents value for money.

I don't care where we are in the league right now and how many points we tend to pick up away from home, Johnson consistently fails to deliver in front of his paying public and for that reason alone I want him gone ... or after 10 straight years I will seriously consider spending my money on something else.

You are willing to role that dice right now? I do get the other points. 

What happens if we sign a new manager and its worse.  I'd get taking that gamble if we were midtable, but now?  Thats a big gamble to take. 

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

I'm genuinely not really sure where I stand on LJ In/Out right now. I can see strong arguments from both sides.

I'll answer your points from an LJ out point of view though. 

 

What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)

This is a very interesting question because the new manager would have to buy into our philosophy you'd assume. They'd take the job on the understanding that transfers wouldn't be exclusively down to them and we are always prepared to sell assets if a deal makes sense financially. That may thin out the field of potential candidates somewhat and would probably scare off a few experienced hands such as a Tony Mowbray or Mick McCarthy. I don't think that's the type of manager we'd target primarily anyway. 

The obvious candidate who's available right now is Chris Houghton. He's out of work, has experience at a club who were more of a project with big comparisons to Bristol City. I remember at one time Brighton was mooted as the benchmark for what we want to achieve. My guess (based on no inside knowledge) is that someone like him could be persuaded - with a few conditions. We'd need to pay him well though.

I think more realistically we'd look for someone who's up and coming - he's out of reach now, but someone like Graham Potter would've been good. I could see us being interested in Danny Cowley however he's moved recently so now too probably out of reach. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of stand out candidates in the lower leagues - perhaps we'd be interested in someone like Gareth Ainsworth at Wycombe or Paul Warne at Rotherham. 

I think our best bet for the long term would probably be to look abroad. I don't have any names for that, but European coaches are more used to a set up like ours. 

What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 

I'm reasonably content with the actual league position, but I'd rather we were top 6 obviously. Form and style of play is a worry. 

Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?

I think for me there's a concern that Johnson has gone as far as he can with the squad and we need fresh impetus to get us up. He doesn't seem able to bring the best out of gifted players consistently (such as Palmer/Eliasson) and the style of football can be very dull. 

If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 

No, transfer window has shut by that point. 3rd is fantastic. He'd have to see it through. 

How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

Depends on budget and who we sell - but I think we should be expecting top 6 either this season or next. We have a strong squad, and are not far off. We have to aim high.

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9 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

You are willing to role that dice right now? I do get the other points. 

What happens if we sign a new manager and its worse.  I'd get taking that gamble if we were midtable, but now?  Thats a big gamble to take. 

This is really extreme but I don't think some of these players could be playing tactically worse at times. We really do hit some rock bottom individual performances, it can be so incredibly poor. I put the blame on LJ for this.

A big gamble that's looking increasingly advertising when more people start believing in the above. 

I don't think it's wise to take that gamble just yet.

Edited by Sturny

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I'm genuinely not really sure where I stand on LJ In/Out right now. I can see strong arguments from both sides.

I'll answer your points from an LJ out point of view though. 

 

What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)

This is a very interesting question because the new manager would have to buy into our philosophy you'd assume. They'd take the job on the understanding that transfers wouldn't be exclusively down to them and we are always prepared to sell assets if a deal makes sense financially. That may thin out the field of potential candidates somewhat and would probably scare off a few experienced hands such as a Tony Mowbray or Mick McCarthy. I don't think that's the type of manager we'd target primarily anyway. 

The obvious candidate who's available right now is Chris Houghton. He's out of work, has experience at a club who were more of a project with big comparisons to Bristol City. I remember at one time Brighton was mooted as the benchmark for what we want to achieve. My guess (based on no inside knowledge) is that someone like him could be persuaded - with a few conditions. We'd need to pay him well though.

I think more realistically we'd look for someone who's up and coming - he's out of reach now, but someone like Graham Potter would've been good. I could see us being interested in Danny Cowley however he's moved recently so now too probably out of reach. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of stand out candidates in the lower leagues - perhaps we'd be interested in someone like Gareth Ainsworth at Wycombe or Paul Warne at Rotherham. 

I think our best bet for the long term would probably be to look abroad. I don't have any names for that, but European coaches are more used to a set up like ours. 

What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 

I'm reasonably content with the actual league position, but I'd rather we were top 6 obviously. Form and style of play is a worry. 

Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?

I think for me there's a concern that Johnson has gone as far as he can with the squad and we need fresh impetus to get us up. He doesn't seem able to bring the best out of gifted players consistently (such as Palmer/Eliasson) and the style of football can be very dull. 

If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 

No, transfer window has shut by that point. 3rd is fantastic. He'd have to see it through. 

How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

Depends on budget and who we sell - but I think we should be expecting top 6 either this season or next. We have a strong squad, and are not far off. We have to aim high.

Can't argue with any of that mate.   

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The fan base should have seen by now that LJ is not going anywhere and calls for him to go will fall on deaf ears.

Just to say that LJ is not a "manager". His role is First Team Coach.  There is a difference.  LJ is part of an overall management structure and thus he is like the figure head for the team but he is not solely in control. That is the problem with your questions and why sacking LJ is not going to happen. There will be "disappointment" if targets are not reached but they will be explained away and justified. LJ is a young coach who is developing and he fits the profile of the person SL wants at the club. Unless we get relegated or he decides to move on, LJ will be with us for some time. That is the reality. 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution) - I don't believe there is a realistic and viable alternative to Johnson ATM. Neither Warnock or Hughton would IMO take a job where they are part of some structured management team of which they did not control. LJ tolerates this because of his relative age as a coach. 
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? Realistically, LJ  has attained that but our boards public quest for the PL and top 6 finishes puts unnecessary pressure on LJ and any successor. This is a tough league. Look at the playing squad we have I think mid-table is about right in the absence of a proven striker. 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone? He has improved his league position and the playing squad but he has had more resources at his disposal than any other manager.  There needs to be a review of this by Ashton at the end of the season. LJ has arguably lost his best players over the past 2 seasons and I don't think they have been adequately replaced.
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? LJ will not be sacked whether we are 3rd or not. 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? (see 5)

I don't see that LJ is under pressure. He is part of a structure the owner is happy with. Unless we start flirting with relegation, he will remain the First Team Coach for the foreseeable future. Thus, you either get behind the team or you don't go. Sadly, I have chosen the latter and given up my season card. Its a 4 hour round trip for me and I have better things to do on a Saturday than watch that drivel....I still have nightmares of the Preston 5-0 hammering and then 5 hour drive back home..... I went to a couple of the home games before XMAS and we were awful and looked nothing like a top 6 team.... I think LJ is a good League one coach but he is not and never was the man to take us into the PL. Just don't sense he has that gravitas. I have met him a couple of time and he is a nice guy, does genuinely love the club and wants to do well. I don't think he helps himself with his spiel after games but I have always felt that he is out of his depth, has too many toys to play with and cannot decide on his best 11 because of it. 

I have always been willing to get behind LJ and support his stewardship but what is being said now about him and his tactics was said several years ago. We are as bad now as we were when on that 10 game losing run.... bar Luton and Wigan that could so easily be repeated. The best course of action is to wait until the end of season and take stock but as I said, unless we are close to relegation I don't see a managerial change any time soon and there are no outstanding candidates for me that I believe we could entice.  People ask for Hughton and we will get Darryl Clarke....

Edited by MarkRed!
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4 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Can't argue with any of that mate.   

Thanks, it's a good thread. The potential next manager question is a very interesting one. Paul Cook is another suggestion, he's done well pretty much everywhere - often at clubs who are having a tough time which skews his win % stats a bit.

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution
  1. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  2. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  3. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  4. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

In order Badger, I'll answer as concisely as I can. 

1. Adkins. Been there, done it, and has been charge of two fairly basket case clubs in his last two Championship Appointments, and did a great Job at Hull.

Hughton being an obvious candidate if we can attract him to our project.

Other outside choices (in my opinion) would be Mark Robins, or more ambitiously, Roger Schmidt.

All of which have greater experience than LJ to varying degrees in terms of achieving promotion, coaching in the prem, and/or Europe to degrees of effect, plus some success. 

There are candidates out there. 

2. For the most part it is the style of football. Specifically the last 12 months. 

The biggest issue for me, however is lack of progression in terms of league positions and performances in spite of spending. We're looking at LJ possibly breaking the £60m mark this window. £6m per place up since 2015 isnt good enough, but then you look at the runs we go on, both good and poor, and it smacks of either poor man management, or motivation. 

3. If we are, I guarentee we wont finish there. I see no signs barring Fulham that we can compete, excluding matches against the bottom 3 in our last 8 matches, I beleive we've returned 1 point in 18.

4. 30 months - 3 transfer windows and then a full season from said point, and then review.  

Edited by Fuber
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2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

This is really extreme but I don't think some of these players could be playing tactically worse at times. We really do hit some rock bottom individual performances, it can be so incredibly poor. I put the blame on LJ for this for failing to amend. 

A big gamble that's looking increasingly advertising when more people start believing in the above. 

I don't think it's wise to take that gamble just yet.

Thats what Everton, Stoke, Sunderland and Newcastle fans all said.  Believe me, it can get worse.  More margin for error for it to be worse than better at this moment in time would be my take on it. 

I remember Stoke being sat in 6th in the Premier League, moaning at the standard of football....... they then sacked Pulis, the rest is history. 

Same with Newcastle and Pardew

Same with Allardyce at Everton 

To balance my own argument, there is a Ranieri and an Adkins. See, this debate is getting me thinking!!! haha.  

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2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

1. Chris Hughton.

2. 6th or above.  Par performance for me this season, after 8th last season and substantial further spending since, is 6th or above.  Therefore while we're below 6th, we're under-achieving.

3.

- He has failed to establish a definitive playing style

- He has failed to establish a settled team, formation and tactics

- He has failed to assemble a squad that fits the aforementioned pre-determined playing style, formation and tactics

- He has failed to get the best out of the players at his disposal

- He has failed to address inconsistency of performances, something that has been an issue for years now

- He has failed to capitalise on periods of good form that have seen us climb into a good position in the table, on more than one occasion, leading me to have no confidence that we would be able to maintain our position should we enjoy another period of good form

- He has failed to provide entertaining football, most notably at home (I could forgive this if the results and performance level was sufficiently consistent to justify this)

- His communication with the media is increasingly based on meaningless cliches and excuses, and precious little recognition of his own failings

- There is no longer any clear indication that the progress made in recent seasons - which I respect and acknowledge - is continuing

 

4. I think this is very unlikely given current form and our downward trend, but under those circumstances I'd be happy to reconsider my opinion - it's entirely acceptable for an opinion to change if the circumstances change

5. This season and two full years, assuming there are reasons to think progress is continually being made in the right direction during that period.

 

Edited by ChippenhamRed
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2 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Thats what Everton, Stoke, Sunderland and Newcastle fans all said.  Believe me, it can get worse.  More margin for error for it to be worse than better at this moment in time would be my take on it. 

I remember Stoke being sat in 6th in the Premier League, moaning at the standard of football....... they then sacked Pulis, the rest is history. 

Same with Newcastle and Pardew

Same with Allardyce at Everton 

To balance my own argument, there is a Ranieri and an Adkins. See, this debate is getting me thinking!!! haha.  

True. Careful what you wish for I guess. But what if 😉

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1 minute ago, Sturny said:

True. Careful what you wish for I guess. But what if 😉

And that is what I am struggling with.  See, I'm even arguing with myself now for the sake of a reasoned debate. 

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7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Thanks, it's a good thread. The potential next manager question is a very interesting one. Paul Cook is another suggestion, he's done well pretty much everywhere - often at clubs who are having a tough time which skews his win % stats a bit.

@Fuber just mentioned Adkins, another good shout.  I suspect many fans would turn their noses up though.  I wouldn’t.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Fuber just mentioned Adkins, another good shout.  I suspect many fans would turn their noses up though.  I wouldn’t.

I'd agree with that.  I think if it were to happen, Adkins and Hughton would be top of the list.  
Hughton makes me a bit excited, but would he want to come? If anyone can sell him the dream, MA can.  I could see Hughton and Adkins slotting right in on a personality (working with MA) level too. 

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11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Fuber just mentioned Adkins, another good shout.  I suspect many fans would turn their noses up though.  I wouldn’t.

I did think of him, I must admit he wouldn't be top of my list but could be persuaded. Haven't followed his career that closely in the last few years so not too knowledgeable. 

Edited by Phileas Fogg

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For me the underlying fact is "we" don't know what the real expectations are for him from the people who pick up the bill. The only real concrete expectation was SL saying he wanted progression and top 6 this year. Well you can't guarantee top 6 in January and the fact is we still could finish in the top 6 this season. Will this all be forgotten in a few weeks time?

The LJ in/out argument is underlined by a feeling of urgency by the fans to take the 'opportunity' of promotion this year. It was the same last year, even the year before. The opportunity, by the way, in part thanks to LJ. Yes you all say it's more than that, footballing quality for example, but ultimately it comes down to expectations. I've watched the argument against LJ shift and change over the years, awful recruitment, football way too open/football way too much defensive, not streetwise enough/not pretty enough, way too much passing around at the back/way too many long balls, big money flops not in the team/big money flops in the team. The one constant, some just find any excuse to have him gone, period. 

The question is does SL desperately need to take the opportunity of the top 6 this year? I suspect no. I suspect the board are happy to give him until the summer and then re-assess. If they are anxious about not having a top 6 finish this year, well, different story. My opinion is they are not and that may be backed up by a few more sales this January/Summer of key players, again.

Does SL care about the quality of football? Who knows. Does SL think LJ is, on the whole, over achieving or under achieving? Is he in credit? I think the answer that that question is also deeply layered in truths about transfers, the squad, budgets etc that we as normal fans will never know the full details of. We've ridden out storms before under LJ, can the ship's integrity take a few more big waves.

I think the decision may be taken out of their hands though if there are more Shrewsbury's and more and more neutral fans join the out camp. Barnsley this weekend and Birmingham after, if the atmosphere gets ugly they may have to pull the trigger. But i'd expect an interim appointment from within until the summer.

1. Answer for debate - Who could come in? There are a few that come to mind, but they're in jobs and unlikely to leave mid-season. I'm thinking Grant McCann or Alex Neil, could be pried away, lower down a Ryan Lowe or a Paul Warne are perhaps. OOC managers do not excite me and that does make a difference. Warnock? A no from me. Hughton, yes, but likely? Not so sure. 

Edited by Alessandro
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2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

1. Nobody so far as i'm aware, works in the game and is a poster on otib so we are all patently unqualified to comment upon a suitable replacement for an unsuitable (in my opinion) incumbent. That is a job for Ashton and Lansdown Junior and if they haven't got a  list of available candidates and their associated costs then like other management off the pitch at the club they are unfit for  purpose.

Who would I want ? Chris Hughton but no idea if he would come here and operate under the shackles created by Mr Lansdown.

2. Playoffs only. He has had enough time and this league is the weakest for a while in my opinion.

3. No. I confess that I don't like his personality either, but if he delivered performances then I would consider that an irrelevance.The fact that he appears bullet proof, never fesses up to making errors, or if he does, includes others, and his open criticism of players, combined with the streaks and turgid home displays doesn't enamour him to me.

4. Yes because if we were in that position it would be a false one, due to a loss of form by many clubs around us, and I am confident that a number of them would take appropriate steps to remedy the situation.

5. 2 seasons to clear the mess made by Lee Johnson.

Edited by Natchfever
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42 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

They'd take the job on the understanding that transfers wouldn't be exclusively down to them and we are always prepared to sell assets if a deal makes sense financially.

Top reply @Phileas Fogg but two bits I wanted to highlight, and am not being critical about this.. 

After the match last night LJ implied that the transfers were down to Mark Ashton and not him

Surely every club in this league has to always be prepared to sell their assets if a deal makes financial sense?

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15 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

1. Nobody so far as i'm aware, works in the game and is a poster on otib so we are all patently unqualified to comment upon a suitable replacement for an unsuitable incumbent.

Not true @Natchfever there are a number of people who are well qualified in the game who post on here - I'm not going to embarrass them by naming them here but they may want to mention themselves in further replies?

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1 hour ago, Badger08 said:

Can't argue with that mate.  I think (maybe) we are closer to the same page than we think.  If Johnson doesn't get us in the playoffs this season, imo he has to go.  It has been, and will be about progression for me, but the only way to definitively measure that is over the course of a season.  Sacking now on a bunch of ifs and buts doesn't make sense to me.  Obviously this would be different if we were sat in 16th.   

The thing with progression is that it's difficult to actually quantify. 

If we finish 6th this season then that is technically progression, however if you look at the teams in this league and how they are performing it is particularly weak. 

Put us and wolves in this league playing as we did 2 years ago for the first half of the season (for us) and I think we would be in a position now where even the Johnson record 9 game losing streak would struggle to be enough to see us drop out of the Top 2 we would be that far ahead of the others. 

Frankly all that I need to see to be happy is that we go back to the identity that we had that season, its the apparent lack of a plan that I cannot stomach, we have spent 4 years recruiting players to play football and we have decided to play Warnock ball, which means that most of our players are to varying degrees useless. 

I don't underhand how that can make sense to anyone. 

If I can see there is a clear plan and what we are trying to do I can accept it not working, but we don't even have that and it's not working. 

 

To add, for me if we try to play like Brentford for the rest of the season and are a bit inconsistent while players get used to the system and each other but we end the season playing good football and picking up consistent good results, I would accept lower than 6th.

Edited by Spud55
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5 minutes ago, phantom said:

Top reply @Phileas Fogg but two bits I wanted to highlight, and am not being critical about this.. 

After the match last night LJ implied that the transfers were down to Mark Ashton and not him

Surely every club in this league has to always be prepared to sell their assets if a deal makes financial sense?

I haven't heard that interview, read that comment though but It depends to what extent, I doubt many managers would want Ashton having total control. I assume he means the finer details of the transfers (financials too) are down to Ashton. I hope it's not the whole process including player identification. There are others on this forum who know about it though - Can anyone clarify how the transfer process works? Pretty sure I've seen @Harry post about it before.

RE Assets - Yes that's true. I think some are better at holding onto them than us though. Although in hindsight all of the big money sales have been made sense. Ironically it was probably Ayling which was the worst deal for the club but obviously external factors played into that. 

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1 Hughton maybe, definitely not Warnock. Beyond that I don't study the unemployed mangers list each week.

2 I'd be happy with 3rd/4th with possibility of catching top 2.

3 Didn't rate LJ as a player, but have given him the benefit of the doubt.

4 If we are 3rd in a months time, it solves nothing for me. It would mean that we've gone another winning run as per other seasons. But the prize we are aiming for is the Premier League where realistically we would have enforced bad runs - Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea on the bounce. We would need to weather those and be ready to play the others. Nothing in the LJ streaky record suggests that he has the ability to keep focus required.

5 Next 2 seasons

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8 minutes ago, phantom said:

Not true @Natchfever there are a number of people who are well qualified in the game who post on here - I'm not going to embarrass them by naming them here but they may want to mention themselves in further replies?

Fair comment mate but I said" so far as i'm aware" and i'm not as itk as you or some others no doubt.

I have my suspicions about one or two who clearly have a detailed insight into the game and also a couple I think are out and out bluffers and fantasists !

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13 minutes ago, phantom said:

Top reply @Phileas Fogg but two bits I wanted to highlight, and am not being critical about this.. 

After the match last night LJ implied that the transfers were down to Mark Ashton and not him

Surely every club in this league has to always be prepared to sell their assets if a deal makes financial sense?

Yep he did say that.

I'm sure I have heard him say in the past though that he has the final say.

Did I imagine that ?

Not like him to lay any failings at anothers door is it.

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2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

1: houghton is the choice but I doubt it, a manager who is willing to play attacking football quite libut he wouldn’t be a popular choiceke Mark robins

2 league position is fine 

3 it’s footballing reasons the football is trudged slow boring and predictable, our home form under him is a disgrace 

4 yes I would

5 it would take 2 years to sort the mess johnson has made of the squad, so would need that at the very least

 

 

Quite agree except Cotterill wasn't a popular choice at first but gave us a season to remember for all the right  reasons

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14 minutes ago, phantom said:

Not true @Natchfever there are a number of people who are well qualified in the game who post on here - I'm not going to embarrass them by naming them here but they may want to mention themselves in further replies?

Its ok mate, I'm not easily embarrassed ;) 

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14 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

The thing with progression is that it's difficult to actually quantify. 

If we finish 6th this season then that is technically progression, however if you look at the teams in this league and how they are performing it is particularly weak. 

Put us and wolves in this league playing as we did 2 years ago for the first half of the season (for us) and I think we would be in a position now where even the Johnson record 9 game losing streak would struggle to be enough to see us drop out of the Top 2 we would be that far ahead of the others. 

Frankly all that I need to see to be happy is that we go back to the identity that we had that season, its the apparent lack of a plan that I cannot stomach, we have spent 4 years recruiting players to play football and we have decided to play Warnock ball, which means that most of our players are to varying degrees useless. 

I don't underhand how that can make sense to anyone. 

If I can see there is a clear plan and what we are trying to do I can accept it not working, but we don't even have that and it's not working. 

Progress is not hard to quantify. It can be measured by your standard 

  1. Points
  2. Or a standard .

You have used a standard there. Your standard is a playing approach then progress can be judged linearly e.g. Is the squad and XI moving towards that desired point - I want high intensity and the team will run x amount in a game x individuals.

The above measurement could be used for instance in your identity that we had that season. You may not have the various metrics to hand but you can see and understand that progression if it is occurring.

 

Edited by Cowshed

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8 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Fair comment mate but I said" so far as i'm aware" and i'm not as itk as you or some others no doubt.

I have my suspicions about one or two who clearly have a detailed insight into the game and also a couple I think are out and out bluffers and fantasists !

Anyone can read and regurgitate a book. 
 

My question about anyone who spends a long time on a football forum arguing on a technical level.....why are you here arguing about it and why are you not doing it for real??

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2 hours ago, Badger08 said:

 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

1. David Moyes and only Moysie for me. I guess we will have to wait for him to stuff up WHam and get him in the Summer. Can we wait that long though?

2. I can't realistically see us being above 8th

3. Do I want him gone? Not necessarially as I so wanted success, entertaining great football and perhaps even the promotion that eluded his Dad from him. But I got to admit that I think the job is sadly beyond him as we aren't seeing any of my requirements.

4. I think if he gets us to third in your five week timescale he has the right to continue. I don't like the current football on offer though.

5. How long? With same budget or better, with same policy where we sell our better players and young prospects? You would have to give someone two seasons plus or the infamous four windows. Most managers wouldn't choose to work under such restrictions though, but I agree many have to.

 

Why do I feel like I am submitting homework 🤣

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3 hours ago, Badger08 said:

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not here for an argument.  I can't be bothered, and if you have a different opinion, then great.  I haven't seen a single argument to convince me that changing manger is going to be worth lifting us up an extra point (as it stands).

So, I want to know a few things to get inside people's heads who want Johnson out, to see if it could change my mind.  If you can't, or don't want to answer the questions then don't bother, like I've said, I'm not here for a fight or name calling.  I want a decent debate. Lets see if we are capable of it here. 

 

  1. What manager would you choose over Johnson and why?  ("its not my job" answer won't cut it.  If you want to call for the manager, you must have a solution)
  2. What league position at this stage of the season would you be happy with? 
  3. Is it purely footballing reasons you would like Johnson gone?
  4. If in 5 weeks time we were 3rd, but still playing the football we are, would you still want him gone? 
  5. How long would you give a new manager to get us into the playoffs? 

 

I'd be interested in peoples thoughts. 

 

 

1. Carvajal, warne or jokanivich

2. Progress not position

3.yep

4.no

5. Depends on progress

 

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1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

Interesting hypothesis. Especially given geography. 
 

And do you know what... the game is a bit sadder without him. I’d gamble on his last hurrah being here. 
 

Villain turned hero...

the bloke isn't stupid and must have an inkling johnsons on borrowed time,the same as a lot of us.having said that,id rather see a different manager in for 16-17 months for a fair crack at the whip. the Brentford bloke was a good shout

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