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Did the players let us down last night?


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1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

LJ has been taking a lot of flak, but I thought that was a very strong City team assembled last night.

All the players earn a decent wage and have agreed to play for City, so why could they not fight harder to win?

I don't blame Lee for the loss, I feel the players let him down and massively let us down.

It is often said on here that this is one of the best squads assembled, so we should expect more from this group of players.

It's simply not fair to heap the blame on LJ, I'm fairly confident he would have anticipated so much more, and must be hurt by last night, just like we all are.

Lee is a genuine nice guy, so perhaps the players haven't turned it on as much as we would hope, as they don't have to fear any harsh consequences.  The feeling might fade, but the City players have sickened me with their lacklustre performances against the Shrews, who had a lot more passion and commitment than us.  If possible, I would dock the most culpable players a week's wages.

 

Yes players let us down because they lost the game and were  not good enough. But these attempts to teflon coat Johnson astound me. If you are managing in any profession you carry the can. That is what you are paid for. If you do not like taking the responsibility then don't take the job or the money. In football terms if Johnson was managing a team that he had inherited then fair play I would accept he has reduced responsibility. But when he had signed the players spent 4 years getting them to play with the Johnson identity then it is totally down to him. For example he had continued to play Diedhiou in spite of him regularly missing goals he should convert so when he does it against Shrewsbury then responsibility lays with Johnson because he should not be in the team. He has created a team that have not got the character to deal with pressure games.  We fall away at the end of the season when in good positions to reach the playoffs because of this. When a great time against Liverpool is the reward the team haven't got the bottle or determination to see it out. If we have the most talented group of players for some time then why are they performing like this. Johnson should know why. The fact he  continually  has no answers  to this says it all 

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Serious question...what tactics did LJ employ last night that were so ineffective? Were they so different to any other occasion where we have played well and won?

Or did we play pretty much the same way, and didn't put away the chances and sitters we created?

Is that poor tactics or lack of quality by the players?

Why do they play well one week and win, but play the same tactics the next week, play poorly and lose?

Tactics...players consistency and quality?

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18 minutes ago, spudski said:

Anti 'Dave'? Behave yourself...got no problem with Dave...I agree with most of his posts...top bloke.

As for Fammy...he is totally inconsistent and lacks correct movement. One game unplayable...5 like a rank amateur.

I'm not anti Fammy...I like him and his effort and heart. But he lacks the consistency and natural intelligence of a forwards movement.

So wind her neck in and read my posts correctly with the intention they are meant.

I'm not anti anyone FFS...idiot 🙄

Exactly where i am with him 

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2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Most of the things your listing are posted by people who want LJ out not people defending him. 

 

The level of defence for LJ on here from some absolutely beggars belief. The level of criticism beggars belief! Year on year improvement and still up there at the moment, and your acting like we in a relegation fight! We're just outside the playoffs! Get a grip! 
 

Yeh... we’ve been playing shit for 18 months at home because of the players. Nothing to do with the tactics. Poor LJ. 18 months including our highet finish in 10 years and pushing to go better this season.
 

Kalas is shit. He’s Definitely not won a couple of promotions from this league.  
 

Baker/Weimann shit. Definitely never played top flight football. 
 

Eliasson. Shit. LJ’s treatment of him proves that. 
 

Jay Dasilva. Shit. 
 

Williams. Defo not a fairly (Comparatively) decorated international defender. 
 

Massengo/Nagy/Korey Smith. Yep all shit too. Definitely not good enough.  I don't understand what you are getting at here - These are the things people are saying are LJ's fault people saying he's made the team worse. People defending him are saying that it's going to come good. 
 

it’s always someone else’s fault. Never Johnson’s. 

 

But we’re always shit at home. Whatever team, pretty much always shit. But it couldn’t possibly be anything to do with Johnson. 
 

I’m seriously starting to wonder if some people take backhanded perks to keep up the LJ in faction. 
 

This country. 

Again we're just outside the playoffs! In the season after our best season in years - get a grip!!
 

 

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2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Serious question...what tactics did LJ employ last night that were so ineffective? Were they so different to any other occasion where we have played well and won?

Or did we play pretty much the same way, and didn't put away the chances and sitters we created?

Is that poor tactics or lack of quality by the players?

Why do they play well one week and win, but play the same tactics the next week, play poorly and lose?

Tactics...players consistency and quality?

Same tactics same out come.... players aren't performance as they should because half simply aren't good enough and the others don't believe in LJ. One thing that gets me is we are so defensive but yet we're so open and still back off. It was a great strike last night but again why did he have so much room and it's not the 1st time this season we've seen this. He wants to play from the back but we simply don't have the quality players to do so and get closed down. Midfield is weak with not 1 leader / ball player or winner as JB plays so deep and up front we have AW who runs his heart out but no goal scorer same problems we've had for 4 transfer windows. And we are truly awful from throw ins no movement especially this season. We are simply not good enough in key area's.

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25 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

The level of defence for LJ on here from some absolutely beggars belief. 
 

Yeh... we’ve been playing shit for 18 months at home because of the players. Nothing to do with the tactics. Poor LJ. 
 

Kalas is shit. He’s Definitely not won a couple of promotions from this league. 
 

Baker/Weimann shit. Definitely never played top flight football. 
 

Eliasson. Shit. LJ’s treatment of him proves that. 
 

Jay Dasilva. Shit. 
 

Williams. Defo not a fairly (Comparatively) decorated international defender. 
 

Massengo/Nagy/Korey Smith. Yep all shit too. Definitely not good enough. 
 

it’s always someone else’s fault. Never Johnson’s. 

 

But we’re always shit at home. Whatever team, pretty much always shit. But it couldn’t possibly be anything to do with Johnson. 
 

I’m seriously starting to wonder if some people take backhanded perks to keep up the LJ in faction. 
 

This country. 
 

Good players can play badly. The question raised was whether the players let us down last night.  Why should the answer never be yes?

Managers are ultimately accountable for results but an awful lot of fans want to absolve players of any responsibility for their performances - apart from whoever the latest scapegoat happens to be.

I don't suppose any manager instructs players to keep giving the ball away for instance. So who is responsible if players do that?

If footballers are allowed can we all deny personal responsibility for how we do our jobs and blame it on our boss?

This country indeed.

Having said that, LJ said that nobody could say any of the players had a poor game so his answer is no. Of course if he had said otherwise he would have got stick for that as well.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Good players can play badly. The question raised was whether the players let us down last night.  Why should the answer never be yes?

Managers are ultimately accountable for results but an awful lot of fans want to absolve players of any responsibility for their performances - apart from whoever the latest scapegoat happens to be.

I don't suppose any manager instructs players to keep giving the ball away for instance. So who is responsible if players do that?

If footballers are allowed can we all deny personal responsibility for how we do our jobs and blame it on our boss?

This country indeed.

 

 

Players do get it easy it’s true. Nothing easier in life than picking up your £60K for the month and shrugging your shoulders when the Boss is the one who will lose his job.....

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2 hours ago, reddogkev said:

LJ has been taking a lot of flak, but I thought that was a very strong City team assembled last night.

All the players earn a decent wage and have agreed to play for City, so why could they not fight harder to win?

I don't blame Lee for the loss, I feel the players let him down and massively let us down.

It is often said on here that this is one of the best squads assembled, so we should expect more from this group of players.

It's simply not fair to heap the blame on LJ, I'm fairly confident he would have anticipated so much more, and must be hurt by last night, just like we all are.

Lee is a genuine nice guy, so perhaps the players haven't turned it on as much as we would hope, as they don't have to fear any harsh consequences.  The feeling might fade, but the City players have sickened me with their lacklustre performances against the Shrews, who had a lot more passion and commitment than us.  If possible, I would dock the most culpable players a week's wages.

 

Players are confused by the tactics and way they are being asked to play

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3 minutes ago, Allwaysred said:

Same tactics same out come.... players aren't performance as they should because half simply aren't good enough and the others don't believe in LJ. One thing that gets me is we are so defensive but yet we're so open and still back off. It was a great strike last night but again why did he have so much room and it's not the 1st time this season we've seen this. He wants to play from the back but we simply don't have the quality players to do so and get closed down. Midfield is weak with not 1 leader / ball player or winner as JB plays so deep and up front we have AW who runs his heart out but no goal scorer same problems we've had for 4 transfer windows. And we are truly awful from throw ins no movement especially this season. We are simply not good enough in key area's.

Im not sure it's a case of not believing in LJ. Players talk...they wouldn't come here if it was bad.

I do however agree that our quality to consistently do well, isn't there.

Like I've said...these players have quality, but have varying degrees of consistency.

Put them all together, and getting a consistent winning outcome isn't going to happen.

This is why they aren't Prem players...the level of inconsistency or experience with some is that of a mid Championship side.

The overriding feeling I get from this forum, is fans loved watching the high press game of two seasons ago.

We've become more defensive and more dour to watch.

I think fans would put up with that if we were standard top 6...but we aren't. We are dour and mid table like.

So that is going against LJ.

His tactics aren't anything drastically different to what any other Club is doing in this division.

His recruitment and it's restrictions don't help imo.

Any other Coach would still have inconsistent players on his hands and the Club's recruitment policy to work with.

I think any new coach would have to tear it all up and start again.

 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

We created enough chances to win the game.

Problem is, if you've got a forward who can't hit a barn door from a few yards you aren't going to win games. You can only create so many chances.

It's purely down to consistency of quality imo...not the tactics. Too many players have quality on their day, but their day isn't consistent enough.

Yesterday we created the chances and our forward messed em up. Score them and we win easily.

Other days we don't create chances because of the total lack of movement into the correct areas in the final third.

All these problems of consistent inconsistency have a knock on effect and the pressure builds.

Nothing wrong with LJs tactics...the problem is recruiting players that aren't up to getting the job done on a consistent basis.

Too many rough diamonds that need developing.

Our front line needs moving on and replacing imo...all effort and heart but not enough quality where it matters.

Shrewsbury won a game with a forward who couldn’t hit a barn door, just saying. 

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23 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

 

Just out of interest do you enjoy the home games over the last two seasons (which have seen our highest position)?

For me, I couldn't care less about the table, I want to be entertained (even if we do lose 1-0 at Shrewsbury) and finish 15th.

The Prem would be crap anyway unless you really want to see the top teams beat us most weeks and worry about having to beat Burnlyy or Bournemouth to stay up..

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1 minute ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Just out of interest do you enjoy the home games over the last two seasons (which have seen our highest position)?

For me, I couldn't care less about the table, I want to be entertained (even if we do lose 1-0 at Shrewsbury) and finish 15th.

The Prem would be crap anyway unless you really want to see the top teams beat us most weeks and worry about having to beat Burnlyy or Bournemouth to stay up..

Agree. If the league position is the absolute be all and end all of everything at the expense of everything else I’ll save the £560 on the season ticket and buy a Sunday Paper every week........

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2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If you do want to look at a player it would be interesting to get Dan Bentleys perspective of the goal. Weak as piss goalkeeping I thought.

Bentley kept us in the game, it was nothing to do with him the goal, it was mainly brownhill who was ******* about

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2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Bentley kept us in the game, it was nothing to do with him the goal, it was mainly brownhill who was ******* about

He may have kept us in the game but that shot wasn’t hit hard enough to beat a pro keeper from that distance imo.....

Looking at the reactions of one or two players I’m not alone in thinking that either.

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5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Shrewsbury won a game with a forward who couldn’t hit a barn door, just saying. 

But they took the chance they created...we simply didn't.

If we didn't create any chances I'd get it...but we did...so how can the tactics be wrong?

We simply didn't finish the easy chances. That isn't tactics fault...that's quality of finishing.

Which comes down to inconsistency, because they can do it on other days.

LJ isn't doing some mumbo jumbo type tactics that are to clever for the players to understand.

You can see when you watch what they are trying to do.

The problem is doing it well on a regular basis. The players don't.

If there is a blame...it's the level of recruitment and quality that's needed to perform more consistently.

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22 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Players are confused by the tactics and way they are being asked to play

Over-simplistic for some, but I totally agree with you. This, and the fact that he cannot seem to select a settled side for more than about 5 minutes.

The buck stops here and not with the players.

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10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree. If the league position is the absolute be all and end all of everything at the expense of everything else I’ll save the £560 on the season ticket and buy a Sunday Paper every week........

This. 

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5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

He may have kept us in the game but that shot wasn’t hit hard enough to beat a pro keeper from that distance imo.....

Looking at the reactions of one or two players I’m not alone in thinking that either.

It shot from distance that should never of been aloud to happen,

I also suggest you watch it again, Bentley had no chance with it, it was right into the bottom corner, not many keepers are saving that

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9 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Just out of interest do you enjoy the home games over the last two seasons (which have seen our highest position)?

For me, I couldn't care less about the table, I want to be entertained (even if we do lose 1-0 at Shrewsbury) and finish 15th.

The Prem would be crap anyway unless you really want to see the top teams beat us most weeks and worry about having to beat Burnlyy or Bournemouth to stay up..

I think the football has been awful in this current bad run of form. Its not been the best this season overall either. I definitely get and respect this argument and think you can make a good case for entertainment over results. Personally I think the kind of manager who would get us playing more attractive football would be best served with a transfer window and preseason. The manager suggested to come in now all play dull football despite having a more proven track record. It think given everything we are better sticking and giving LJ the season unless we actually do drop out of contention for the playoffs.  

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5 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

It shot from distance that should never of been aloud to happen,

I also suggest you watch it again, Bentley had no chance with it, it was right into the bottom corner, not many keepers are saving that

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

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13 minutes ago, spudski said:

But they took the chance they created...we simply didn't.

If we didn't create any chances I'd get it...but we did...so how can the tactics be wrong?

We simply didn't finish the easy chances. That isn't tactics fault...that's quality of finishing.

I can go along with this. Look at the shooting stats from across the season and we've consistently been creating fewer, but better chances. I see that as a deliberate ploy, a "tactic" if you will, from the coaches to get poorer finishers into better positions, so making them more likely to score. It's an adjustment of our tactics to allow for technically poorer players (when compared to the other strikers LJ has had during his reign). The downside is that, as you say, you really, really, need to take a few of those rare chances when they come. So, if you happen to have a game where you fail to do that then yeh you'll lose. God forbid you get a game where the opposition is so good you can't even make the chances (we've had a few of those this campaign).

It's this reliance on fortune that gives LJ his streakiness imo. Sometimes it comes together and you get the run we had this time last year or the one from the beginning of this season. But all too often it regresses back to the mean and we start to drop points. 

Essentially it's very frustrating, and it's where a better finisher may genuinely make a huge difference. If you get someone who can convert even slightly harder shots into goals then you can play with a bit more freedom, you can drop a midfielder a little deeper as you'll need fewer attackers to pull the opposition around and open up that easier shot. Maybe that then tightens your defence a bit. 5% improvement up top and at the back may be all it takes. 

Afobe, Afobe, my kingdom for Afobe.

Edited by ExiledAjax
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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

It wasn’t a daisy cutter, it didn’t hit the turf until it hit the back of the net,

williams and Moore I front of him hindering his view so he’d see it late

the keeper takes 0% of the blame to suggest he is at fault is laughable,

where’s the closing down for the first pass? Where’s the challenge? Why is there no player anywhere near the lad?

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1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

It wasn’t a daisy cutter, it didn’t hit the turf until it hit the back of the net,

williams and Moore I front of him hindering his view so he’d see it late

the keeper takes 0% of the blame to suggest he is at fault is laughable,

where’s the closing down for the first pass? Where’s the challenge? Why is there no player anywhere near the lad?

You’ve got your opinion, I’ve got mine. Let’s leave it there.

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47 minutes ago, spudski said:

Serious question...what tactics did LJ employ last night that were so ineffective? Were they so different to any other occasion where we have played well and won?

Or did we play pretty much the same way, and didn't put away the chances and sitters we created?

Is that poor tactics or lack of quality by the players?

Why do they play well one week and win, but play the same tactics the next week, play poorly and lose?

Tactics...players consistency and quality?

The fact that he yet again plays a formation that you literally could not get any worse for our side if you asked the opposition manager to pick it. 4-4-2 highlights every weakness we have and allows for very few of our strengths to come though. 

For us to beat anything but total dross playing that system you need 9/10 performances from 3, 4 or 5 players at least. Which you will get once or twice a season at this level. 

IT exposes every weakness in our back line, as it allows opposition teams the time in the middle to play a balls and get at our full backs, it's means Wieman is randomly running around with absolutely no clue of how to pick up on Fams flicks or passes. 

We have clearly recruited to play 3 in midfield otherwise why in the name of **** did we sign Palmer and smodzic? We have recruited to play 1 up top, as if your going to play 2 you need more than one ******* striker, and a winger to play up top. 

We have recruited to play 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1, and we played it for 15.minutes against Wigan and scored 2 goals, and then he goes and picks a side to play 4-4-2 again, it's mental. 

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12 minutes ago, spudski said:

Im not sure it's a case of not believing in LJ. Players talk...they wouldn't come here if it was bad.

I do however agree that our quality to consistently do well, isn't there.

Like I've said...these players have quality, but have varying degrees of consistency.

Put them all together, and getting a consistent winning outcome isn't going to happen.

I guess other managers try to mitigate inconsistencies by keeping the changes in system to a minimum, the personnel changes low, in the hope that even if a player has a poor game, he still knows his role and responsibility to his teammates.

This is why they aren't Prem players...the level of inconsistency or experience with some is that of a mid Championship side.

we have a mix, a range of abilities, that manifest in them being the level they are.  Some on their way up, some on their way down, some who are just this level.

The overriding feeling I get from this forum, is fans loved watching the high press game of two seasons ago.

People have short memories, it wasn’t all Man Utd “it’s Smith”.  There were sterile home performances, Forest, Boro...but we won them through solidity and being a team.

We've become more defensive and more dour to watch.

I think fans would put up with that if we were standard top 6...but we aren't. We are dour and mid table like.

I think with the players in this squad there is no reason to not be top 6.  There will be other teams thinking the same.  I think I posted the other day we are a 5th-11th team, with little to choose between them.  We should have stability as a plus, a squad built by one man.  No Man Utd excuses that the squad is still full of Fergie, Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho players.

So that is going against LJ.

His tactics aren't anything drastically different to what any other Club is doing in this division.

no, but he changes system too often, and too often in case.

His recruitment and it's restrictions don't help imo.

What do you see these as...and also in the context of most other clubs in this division.

Any other Coach would still have inconsistent players on his hands and the Club's recruitment policy to work with.

I think any new coach would have to tear it all up and start again.

I think a lot of managers would love to take over this squad.

Finally, despite this we are 9th.  I am hugely frustrated that we are wasting a really good opportunity this season.  No team has a divine right Spud, but we should be really well placed.  I hope we go on and do it (under Lee), but if we don’t frustration on my part will turn to huge disappointment.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

I’m with you 100%, wasn’t even like he was on the other side of the goal. Should be saving those for me 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

This is exactly how I see it too Harry.

It's been like it for weeks.

Even if not playing at your best, you can still do the basics and simple things right.

Our movement is absolutely awful. It's pedestrian, so slow and easy to read...and that's when it's not static.

As professional footballers, you know how to move, create angles etc. We often stay static or move into a position where you can't receive a pass.

It's the very basics. It's atrocious and the reason we create so few chances.

 

If these ‘professional footballers’ don’t know how to move or create angles then surely Lee and the recruitment team must take some of the responsibility? What type of players are they bringing in?

This squad is very much LJ’s and has been for a while now. He is now into his 4th season and I’m really struggling to see where we’re going? 

The squad is extremely bloated and it looks as though the coaching staff still can’t get the best out of the players that we already have. We continue to throw money away with very little return in terms of results and performances on the pitch. 

 

Edited by Lew-T
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