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reddogkev

Did the players let us down last night?

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5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

He may have kept us in the game but that shot wasn’t hit hard enough to beat a pro keeper from that distance imo.....

Looking at the reactions of one or two players I’m not alone in thinking that either.

It shot from distance that should never of been aloud to happen,

I also suggest you watch it again, Bentley had no chance with it, it was right into the bottom corner, not many keepers are saving that

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9 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Just out of interest do you enjoy the home games over the last two seasons (which have seen our highest position)?

For me, I couldn't care less about the table, I want to be entertained (even if we do lose 1-0 at Shrewsbury) and finish 15th.

The Prem would be crap anyway unless you really want to see the top teams beat us most weeks and worry about having to beat Burnlyy or Bournemouth to stay up..

I think the football has been awful in this current bad run of form. Its not been the best this season overall either. I definitely get and respect this argument and think you can make a good case for entertainment over results. Personally I think the kind of manager who would get us playing more attractive football would be best served with a transfer window and preseason. The manager suggested to come in now all play dull football despite having a more proven track record. It think given everything we are better sticking and giving LJ the season unless we actually do drop out of contention for the playoffs.  

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5 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

It shot from distance that should never of been aloud to happen,

I also suggest you watch it again, Bentley had no chance with it, it was right into the bottom corner, not many keepers are saving that

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

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13 minutes ago, spudski said:

But they took the chance they created...we simply didn't.

If we didn't create any chances I'd get it...but we did...so how can the tactics be wrong?

We simply didn't finish the easy chances. That isn't tactics fault...that's quality of finishing.

I can go along with this. Look at the shooting stats from across the season and we've consistently been creating fewer, but better chances. I see that as a deliberate ploy, a "tactic" if you will, from the coaches to get poorer finishers into better positions, so making them more likely to score. It's an adjustment of our tactics to allow for technically poorer players (when compared to the other strikers LJ has had during his reign). The downside is that, as you say, you really, really, need to take a few of those rare chances when they come. So, if you happen to have a game where you fail to do that then yeh you'll lose. God forbid you get a game where the opposition is so good you can't even make the chances (we've had a few of those this campaign).

It's this reliance on fortune that gives LJ his streakiness imo. Sometimes it comes together and you get the run we had this time last year or the one from the beginning of this season. But all too often it regresses back to the mean and we start to drop points. 

Essentially it's very frustrating, and it's where a better finisher may genuinely make a huge difference. If you get someone who can convert even slightly harder shots into goals then you can play with a bit more freedom, you can drop a midfielder a little deeper as you'll need fewer attackers to pull the opposition around and open up that easier shot. Maybe that then tightens your defence a bit. 5% improvement up top and at the back may be all it takes. 

Afobe, Afobe, my kingdom for Afobe.

Edited by ExiledAjax
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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

It wasn’t a daisy cutter, it didn’t hit the turf until it hit the back of the net,

williams and Moore I front of him hindering his view so he’d see it late

the keeper takes 0% of the blame to suggest he is at fault is laughable,

where’s the closing down for the first pass? Where’s the challenge? Why is there no player anywhere near the lad?

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1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

It wasn’t a daisy cutter, it didn’t hit the turf until it hit the back of the net,

williams and Moore I front of him hindering his view so he’d see it late

the keeper takes 0% of the blame to suggest he is at fault is laughable,

where’s the closing down for the first pass? Where’s the challenge? Why is there no player anywhere near the lad?

You’ve got your opinion, I’ve got mine. Let’s leave it there.

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47 minutes ago, spudski said:

Serious question...what tactics did LJ employ last night that were so ineffective? Were they so different to any other occasion where we have played well and won?

Or did we play pretty much the same way, and didn't put away the chances and sitters we created?

Is that poor tactics or lack of quality by the players?

Why do they play well one week and win, but play the same tactics the next week, play poorly and lose?

Tactics...players consistency and quality?

The fact that he yet again plays a formation that you literally could not get any worse for our side if you asked the opposition manager to pick it. 4-4-2 highlights every weakness we have and allows for very few of our strengths to come though. 

For us to beat anything but total dross playing that system you need 9/10 performances from 3, 4 or 5 players at least. Which you will get once or twice a season at this level. 

IT exposes every weakness in our back line, as it allows opposition teams the time in the middle to play a balls and get at our full backs, it's means Wieman is randomly running around with absolutely no clue of how to pick up on Fams flicks or passes. 

We have clearly recruited to play 3 in midfield otherwise why in the name of **** did we sign Palmer and smodzic? We have recruited to play 1 up top, as if your going to play 2 you need more than one ******* striker, and a winger to play up top. 

We have recruited to play 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1, and we played it for 15.minutes against Wigan and scored 2 goals, and then he goes and picks a side to play 4-4-2 again, it's mental. 

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12 minutes ago, spudski said:

Im not sure it's a case of not believing in LJ. Players talk...they wouldn't come here if it was bad.

I do however agree that our quality to consistently do well, isn't there.

Like I've said...these players have quality, but have varying degrees of consistency.

Put them all together, and getting a consistent winning outcome isn't going to happen.

I guess other managers try to mitigate inconsistencies by keeping the changes in system to a minimum, the personnel changes low, in the hope that even if a player has a poor game, he still knows his role and responsibility to his teammates.

This is why they aren't Prem players...the level of inconsistency or experience with some is that of a mid Championship side.

we have a mix, a range of abilities, that manifest in them being the level they are.  Some on their way up, some on their way down, some who are just this level.

The overriding feeling I get from this forum, is fans loved watching the high press game of two seasons ago.

People have short memories, it wasn’t all Man Utd “it’s Smith”.  There were sterile home performances, Forest, Boro...but we won them through solidity and being a team.

We've become more defensive and more dour to watch.

I think fans would put up with that if we were standard top 6...but we aren't. We are dour and mid table like.

I think with the players in this squad there is no reason to not be top 6.  There will be other teams thinking the same.  I think I posted the other day we are a 5th-11th team, with little to choose between them.  We should have stability as a plus, a squad built by one man.  No Man Utd excuses that the squad is still full of Fergie, Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho players.

So that is going against LJ.

His tactics aren't anything drastically different to what any other Club is doing in this division.

no, but he changes system too often, and too often in case.

His recruitment and it's restrictions don't help imo.

What do you see these as...and also in the context of most other clubs in this division.

Any other Coach would still have inconsistent players on his hands and the Club's recruitment policy to work with.

I think any new coach would have to tear it all up and start again.

I think a lot of managers would love to take over this squad.

Finally, despite this we are 9th.  I am hugely frustrated that we are wasting a really good opportunity this season.  No team has a divine right Spud, but we should be really well placed.  I hope we go on and do it (under Lee), but if we don’t frustration on my part will turn to huge disappointment.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

I’m with you 100%, wasn’t even like he was on the other side of the goal. Should be saving those for me 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

This is exactly how I see it too Harry.

It's been like it for weeks.

Even if not playing at your best, you can still do the basics and simple things right.

Our movement is absolutely awful. It's pedestrian, so slow and easy to read...and that's when it's not static.

As professional footballers, you know how to move, create angles etc. We often stay static or move into a position where you can't receive a pass.

It's the very basics. It's atrocious and the reason we create so few chances.

 

If these ‘professional footballers’ don’t know how to move or create angles then surely Lee and the recruitment team must take some of the responsibility? What type of players are they bringing in?

This squad is very much LJ’s and has been for a while now. He is now into his 4th season and I’m really struggling to see where we’re going? 

The squad is extremely bloated and it looks as though the coaching staff still can’t get the best out of the players that we already have. We continue to throw money away with very little return in terms of results and performances on the pitch. 

 

Edited by Lew-T
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1 hour ago, spudski said:

Serious question...what tactics did LJ employ last night that were so ineffective? Were they so different to any other occasion where we have played well and won?

But how many times have we honestly played well and won. Have we really played teams off the park with exciting, flowing, positive football? Listening to people on the coach last night on the way back nobody was truely surprised by the result, but didn’t appreciate the standard of the football this season.

I thought we were bloody awful at Wigan last week, and won. I think. We planned to do the same last night, wear the opposition down by keeping the ball and frustrating them and going for a late dramatic goal. Trouble is Shrewsbury thought they would do the same.

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7 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

If these ‘professional footballers’ don’t know how to move or create angles then surely Lee and the recruitment team must take some of the responsibility? What type of players are they bringing in?

This squad is very much LJ’s and has been for a while now. He is now into his 4th season and I’m really struggling to see where we’re going? 

The squad is extremely bloated and it looks as though the coaching staff still can’t get the best out of the players that we already have. We continue to throw money away with very little return in terms of results and performances on the pitch. 

 

The squad is horrendously unbalanced - we counted 9 players that could play in the same position last night!!

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20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I agree with you on many points.

Didn't LJ recently say in an interview that he understands the fans thoughts, but we don't know the reasons why certain players are dropped or picked, or a system adopted? 

We simply don't know.

I've said on numerous thread that our recruitment brings in talented players that we feel are too good to turn down, or talented but not the finished article. We then try to develop and adapt them into our systems.

People have been clamering for Palmer and Eliasson to start.

Eliasson fits a 442...which above is castigated.

And Palmer seems completely off his game regardless of what system is used.

We could go on looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each player.

Imo...all talented individuals on their day, but not complimenting one another.

I'll take an Individual... Eliasson. He can beat his man and deliver a cross. Of which stats state you need approx 9 crosses before a goal is scored.

Why in his development here, hasn't he added to his game by beating his man and playing slide rule passes through the box? Why is hardly anything to feet? I don't understand that stagnation. Why are we so reliant on crosses?

We saw our strengths in the forward line when Pato, Weimann and Famara linked from a deeper position recently. Running at defenders with one touch football, breaking the lines. That is our strength.

I went off on a tangent there...but I'm sure you get the gist 😜

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22 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

If these ‘professional footballers’ don’t know how to move or create angles then surely Lee and the recruitment team must take some of the responsibility? What type of players are they bringing in?

This squad is very much LJ’s and has been for a while now. He is now into his 4th season and I’m really struggling to see where we’re going? 

The squad is extremely bloated and it looks as though the coaching staff still can’t get the best out of the players that we already have. We continue to throw money away with very little return in terms of results and performances on the pitch. 

 

Is it that bloated? It apparently has 31 senior players which someone on here calculated was about average in this league

Edited by Phileas Fogg

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29 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree with you on many points.

Didn't LJ recently say in an interview that he understands the fans thoughts, but we don't know the reasons why certain players are dropped or picked, or a system adopted? 

We simply don't know.

I've said on numerous thread that our recruitment brings in talented players that we feel are too good to turn down, or talented but not the finished article. We then try to develop and adapt them into our systems.

People have been clamering for Palmer and Eliasson to start.

Eliasson fits a 442...which above is castigated.

And Palmer seems completely off his game regardless of what system is used.

We could go on looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each player.

Imo...all talented individuals on their day, but not complimenting one another.

I'll take an Individual... Eliasson. He can beat his man and deliver a cross. Of which stats state you need approx 9 crosses before a goal is scored.

Why in his development here, hasn't he added to his game by beating his man and playing slide rule passes through the box? Why is hardly anything to feet? I don't understand that stagnation. Why are we so reliant on crosses?

We saw our strengths in the forward line when Pato, Weimann and Famara linked from a deeper position recently. Running at defenders with one touch football, breaking the lines. That is our strength.

I went off on a tangent there...but I'm sure you get the gist 😜

Agree with all of that.

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2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

The level of defence for LJ on here from some absolutely beggars belief. 
 

Yeh... we’ve been playing shit for 18 months at home because of the players. Nothing to do with the tactics. Poor LJ. 
 

Kalas is shit. He’s Definitely not won a couple of promotions from this league. 
 

Baker/Weimann shit. Definitely never played top flight football. 
 

Eliasson. Shit. LJ’s treatment of him proves that. 
 

Jay Dasilva. Shit. 
 

Williams. Defo not a fairly (Comparatively) decorated international defender. 
 

Massengo/Nagy/Korey Smith. Yep all shit too. Definitely not good enough. 
 

it’s always someone else’s fault. Never Johnson’s. 

 

But we’re always shit at home. Whatever team, pretty much always shit. But it couldn’t possibly be anything to do with Johnson. 
 

I’m seriously starting to wonder if some people take backhanded perks to keep up the LJ in faction. 
 

This country. 
 

I personally have not defended LJ in this thread. The question though was “are the players to blame” and in my opinion last night they were. 
In answer to your other erratic points :  
Kalas - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit all season. 
Baker - isn’t shit, is our best CB, but is regularly a let-down with his fitness. 
Weimann - Isn’t shit, but isn’t of Prem quality as you mention. He’s a runner, a heads down player with little true quality, but isn’t shit as you say. But he was last night. 
Eliasson - isn’t shit, but he was last night. 
JD - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit all season. 
Williams - is shit, and was last night. 
Massengo - isn’t shit, but isn’t experienced either. And didn’t play last night. 
Nagy - isn’t shit, but isn’t yet up to the speed of English football, isn’t fit, and was shit last night. 

Smith - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit for a year. 
 

LJ - isn’t shit, has plenty to do to put things right, but wasn’t as shit last night as the players. 

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

At what point in last nights game does the person in charge of the team out there (LJ) intervene, show leadership and do something about it?

I don’t have a problem with players taking some blame for last night (we don’t need to agree how much), but for you to say it is all their fault is imho you admitting that our head-coach has no influence on proceedings.  If our own Head-Coach takes the same view of last night as you have, and lays it squarely at the feet of the players, then he will as they say “lose the dressing room” (a phrase I dislike).

I’m actually pretty shocked that you’ve passed the buck so easily and so fully.

Hey-ho...opinions.

I’m neither pro LJ not anti LJ at the moment Dave. I’m not passing the buck for him. He’s got plenty to prove to turn this form around. But performances by many of the players recently have been poor. Last night in particular. 
Baker going off injured forces one sub. Thereby leaving a restriction to change the game too early. Use 2 more subs early and potentially have extra time? Or have confidence that players who should do better might actually do better? 
Last night was not Lj’s fault. But I’m also not going to defend him to the hilt - he’s making mistakes, but he’s not fully at fault. 

2 hours ago, BobbyC said:

The tactics are side pass,side pass,side pass,back.

There were may times last night when the ball could and should have been bought out off defence and into space but the players looked afraid to do so and once again went sideways or back.

Williams in particular.

 

Do you really think those are the tactics LJ set his team out to do. Pass it sideways, sideways and then lose it? 
Perhaps there were too many players off their game and there were no passing options, or if there were, they were poorly executed. 
What I saw was a lack of movement, a lack of mental awareness and a lack of quality. 
We know our players DO have these things in their lockers, but they didn’t bring them last night. 

2 hours ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yes players let us down because they lost the game and were  not good enough. But these attempts to teflon coat Johnson astound me. If you are managing in any profession you carry the can. That is what you are paid for. If you do not like taking the responsibility then don't take the job or the money. In football terms if Johnson was managing a team that he had inherited then fair play I would accept he has reduced responsibility. But when he had signed the players spent 4 years getting them to play with the Johnson identity then it is totally down to him. For example he had continued to play Diedhiou in spite of him regularly missing goals he should convert so when he does it against Shrewsbury then responsibility lays with Johnson because he should not be in the team. He has created a team that have not got the character to deal with pressure games.  We fall away at the end of the season when in good positions to reach the playoffs because of this. When a great time against Liverpool is the reward the team haven't got the bottle or determination to see it out. If we have the most talented group of players for some time then why are they performing like this. Johnson should know why. The fact he  continually  has no answers  to this says it all 

Yes, LJ absolutely carries the can in the end. No one is Teflon coating him. There is fair criticism from many quarters, but there’s also somewhat extreme views to get him out when he isn’t at that point for many yet. 
Plenty to prove, certainly not beyond criticism, but the criticism ought to be fair, and certainly, in view of the thread title, the players should bear the main bulk of the responsibility last night. 
You mention that he persists with Fam despite him missing lots of chances. Who should he play up top then? He doesn’t have too many options up there to be fair. He tried Weimann up there at West Brom away and we looked as poor as I’ve seen. No other options really is there. 

2 hours ago, Allwaysred said:

Same tactics same out come.... players aren't performance as they should because half simply aren't good enough and the others don't believe in LJ. One thing that gets me is we are so defensive but yet we're so open and still back off. It was a great strike last night but again why did he have so much room and it's not the 1st time this season we've seen this. He wants to play from the back but we simply don't have the quality players to do so and get closed down. Midfield is weak with not 1 leader / ball player or winner as JB plays so deep and up front we have AW who runs his heart out but no goal scorer same problems we've had for 4 transfer windows. And we are truly awful from throw ins no movement especially this season. We are simply not good enough in key area's.

You ask why the guy had so much room for that strike. 
Josh Brownhill. 
When the ball goes back to Pierre, Josh is in a decent position, able to screen the CB’s, closing off any penetration through the middle. 
But he decides to go on a wander and chase another bloke out wide to the right. 
He leaves behind a huge hole, easily exploited by a centre back, playing a 1-2 and then a wonder strike. 
Whilst this 1-2 is occurring, Josh watches it unfold and bounces up and down a couple of times. No nous or desire whatsoever to close down the massive gap infront of our CB’s that he himself was responsible for. 
This wasn’t a managerial tactic. Brownhill had himself in a good position and vacated it to chase what he thought was his man rather than be aware of the game situation and what was around and behind him. I’m sure LJ didn’t tell him to do that. It was a player switching off, simple as that. 
You are correct - our midfield is very, very, very weak. 

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

Players are confused by the tactics and way they are being asked to play

I can’t see what hugely confusing tactics LJ was asking of his players last night. Their inability to move and pass was at fault, I don’t think LJ’s tactics were “don’t move about and be shit in everything you do”. Basics. 

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

If you do want to look at a player it would be interesting to get Dan Bentleys perspective of the goal. Weak as piss goalkeeping I thought.

He’s been our most outstanding performer this season and has literally kept us in most games. 
Whether he should’ve got across a bit quicker is fair. And you go on to state that Moore & Williams would’ve expected him to save it, well Bentley wouldn’t have been expecting a centre back to shoot from 30 yards with no one attempting to block it. I’m sure he wasn’t correctly set for it as he was not anticipating a shot. 
However, at the moment Bentley escapes all criticism for me as he’s been our player of the season by a country mile. 
He’s the only one who has earned any slack. 

Edited by Harry
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1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

His tactics aren't anything drastically different to what any other Club is doing in this division.

 

 

WBA have used two formations this season.

Bristol City seven.

That's is drastically different.

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3 minutes ago, Harry said:

He’s been our most outstanding performer this season and has literally kept us in most games. 
Whether he should’ve got across a bit quicker is fair. And you go on to state that Moore & Williams whosoever expected him to save it, well Bentley wouldn’t have been expecting a centre back to shoot from 30 yards with no one attempting to block it. I’m sure he wasn’t correctly set for it as he was not anticipating a shot. 
However, at the moment Bentley escapes all criticism for me as he’s been our player of the season by a country mile. 
He’s the only one who has earned any slack. 

Can’t argue with the last bit tbf. The other point is that a GK has every right to expect others to get him out the shit when he makes a mistake in the same way he will make a great save to get others out of the shit......

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23 minutes ago, Harry said:

I personally have not defended LJ in this thread. The question though was “are the players to blame” and in my opinion last night they were. 
In answer to your other erratic points :  
Kalas - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit all season. 
Baker - isn’t shit, is our best CB, but is regularly a let-down with his fitness. 
Weimann - Isn’t shit, but isn’t of Prem quality as you mention. He’s a runner, a heads down player with little true quality, but isn’t shit as you say. But he was last night. 
Eliasson - isn’t shit, but he was last night. 
JD - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit all season. 
Williams - is shit, and was last night. 
Massengo - isn’t shit, but isn’t experienced either. And didn’t play last night. 
Nagy - isn’t shit, but isn’t yet up to the speed of English football, isn’t fit, and was shit last night. 

Smith - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit for a year. 
 

LJ - isn’t shit, has plenty to do to put things right, but wasn’t as shit last night as the players. 

I’m neither pro LJ not anti LJ at the moment Dave. I’m not passing the buck for him. He’s got plenty to prove to turn this form around. But performances by many of the players recently have been poor. Last night in particular. 
Baker going off injured forces one sub. Thereby leaving a restriction to change the game too early. Use 2 more subs early and potentially have extra time? Or have confidence that players who should do better might actually do better? 
Last night was not Lj’s fault. But I’m also not going to defend him to the hilt - he’s making mistakes, but he’s not fully at fault. 

Do you really think those are the tactics LJ set his team out to do. Pass it sideways, sideways and then lose it? 
Perhaps there were too many players off their game and there were no passing options, or if there were, they were poorly executed. 
What I saw was a lack of movement, a lack of mental awareness and a lack of quality. 
We know our players DO have these things in their lockers, but they didn’t bring them last night. 

Yes, LJ absolutely carries the can in the end. No one is Teflon coating him. There is fair criticism from many quarters, but there’s also somewhat extreme views to get him out when he isn’t at that point for many yet. 
Plenty to prove, certainly not beyond criticism, but the criticism ought to be fair, and certainly, in view of the thread title, the players should bear the main bulk of the responsibility last night. 
You mention that he persists with Fam despite him missing lots of chances. Who should he play up top then? He doesn’t have too many options up there to be fair. He tried Weimann up there at West Brom away and we looked as poor as I’ve seen. No other options really is there. 

You ask why the guy had so much room for that strike. 
Josh Brownhill. 
When the ball goes back to Pierre, Josh is in a decent position, able to screen the CB’s, closing off any penetration through the middle. 
But he decides to go on a wander and chase another bloke out wide to the right. 
He leaves behind a huge hole, easily exploited by a centre back, playing a 1-2 and then a wonder strike. 
Whilst this 1-2 is occurring, Josh watches it unfold and bounces up and down a couple of times. No nous or desire whatsoever to close down the massive gap infront of our CB’s that he himself was responsible for. 
This wasn’t a managerial tactic. Brownhill had himself in a good position and vacated it to chase what he thought was his man rather than be aware of the game situation and what was around and behind him. I’m sure LJ didn’t tell him to do that. It was a player switching off, simple as that. 
You are correct - our midfield is very, very, very weak. 

I can’t see what hugely confusing tactics LJ was asking of his players last night. Their inability to move and pass was at fault, I don’t think LJ’s tactics were “don’t move about and be shit in everything you do”. Basics. 

He’s been our most outstanding performer this season and has literally kept us in most games. 
Whether he should’ve got across a bit quicker is fair. And you go on to state that Moore & Williams would’ve expected him to save it, well Bentley wouldn’t have been expecting a centre back to shoot from 30 yards with no one attempting to block it. I’m sure he wasn’t correctly set for it as he was not anticipating a shot. 
However, at the moment Bentley escapes all criticism for me as he’s been our player of the season by a country mile. 
He’s the only one who has earned any slack. 

That’s his 4th mistake in the last month or so to be fair not including Saturdays kick v Wigan 

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36 minutes ago, Harry said:

I personally have not defended LJ in this thread. The question though was “are the players to blame” and in my opinion last night they were. 
In answer to your other erratic points :  
Kalas - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit all season. 
Baker - isn’t shit, is our best CB, but is regularly a let-down with his fitness. 
Weimann - Isn’t shit, but isn’t of Prem quality as you mention. He’s a runner, a heads down player with little true quality, but isn’t shit as you say. But he was last night. 
Eliasson - isn’t shit, but he was last night. 
JD - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit all season. 
Williams - is shit, and was last night. 
Massengo - isn’t shit, but isn’t experienced either. And didn’t play last night. 
Nagy - isn’t shit, but isn’t yet up to the speed of English football, isn’t fit, and was shit last night. 

Smith - isn’t shit, but hasn’t been fit for a year. 
 

LJ - isn’t shit, has plenty to do to put things right, but wasn’t as shit last night as the players. 

I’m neither pro LJ not anti LJ at the moment Dave. I’m not passing the buck for him. He’s got plenty to prove to turn this form around. But performances by many of the players recently have been poor. Last night in particular. 
Baker going off injured forces one sub. Thereby leaving a restriction to change the game too early. Use 2 more subs early and potentially have extra time? Or have confidence that players who should do better might actually do better? 
Last night was not Lj’s fault. But I’m also not going to defend him to the hilt - he’s making mistakes, but he’s not fully at fault. 

Do you really think those are the tactics LJ set his team out to do. Pass it sideways, sideways and then lose it? 
Perhaps there were too many players off their game and there were no passing options, or if there were, they were poorly executed. 
What I saw was a lack of movement, a lack of mental awareness and a lack of quality. 
We know our players DO have these things in their lockers, but they didn’t bring them last night. 

Yes, LJ absolutely carries the can in the end. No one is Teflon coating him. There is fair criticism from many quarters, but there’s also somewhat extreme views to get him out when he isn’t at that point for many yet. 
Plenty to prove, certainly not beyond criticism, but the criticism ought to be fair, and certainly, in view of the thread title, the players should bear the main bulk of the responsibility last night. 
You mention that he persists with Fam despite him missing lots of chances. Who should he play up top then? He doesn’t have too many options up there to be fair. He tried Weimann up there at West Brom away and we looked as poor as I’ve seen. No other options really is there. 

You ask why the guy had so much room for that strike. 
Josh Brownhill. 
When the ball goes back to Pierre, Josh is in a decent position, able to screen the CB’s, closing off any penetration through the middle. 
But he decides to go on a wander and chase another bloke out wide to the right. 
He leaves behind a huge hole, easily exploited by a centre back, playing a 1-2 and then a wonder strike. 
Whilst this 1-2 is occurring, Josh watches it unfold and bounces up and down a couple of times. No nous or desire whatsoever to close down the massive gap infront of our CB’s that he himself was responsible for. 
This wasn’t a managerial tactic. Brownhill had himself in a good position and vacated it to chase what he thought was his man rather than be aware of the game situation and what was around and behind him. I’m sure LJ didn’t tell him to do that. It was a player switching off, simple as that. 
You are correct - our midfield is very, very, very weak. 

I can’t see what hugely confusing tactics LJ was asking of his players last night. Their inability to move and pass was at fault, I don’t think LJ’s tactics were “don’t move about and be shit in everything you do”. Basics. 

He’s been our most outstanding performer this season and has literally kept us in most games. 
Whether he should’ve got across a bit quicker is fair. And you go on to state that Moore & Williams would’ve expected him to save it, well Bentley wouldn’t have been expecting a centre back to shoot from 30 yards with no one attempting to block it. I’m sure he wasn’t correctly set for it as he was not anticipating a shot. 
However, at the moment Bentley escapes all criticism for me as he’s been our player of the season by a country mile. 
He’s the only one who has earned any slack. 

This isn't new though not closing down it's happened for ages Sunderland at home Derby away Preston away Barnsley away all from different seasons under LJ the list goes on. All basic mistakes and still happening. How many home games this season have we all seen us get deeper and deeper and predictable and get found out?? Too many. Why?? Because that's how LJ has set them up and the players don't believe in it. Hence why we've gone through 60 players in that time. Bottom line it's LJ players he's bought and it's his philosophy DNA what ever and the players aren't responding they simply don't believe init and he's out of ideas to change another slide. 

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Im still angry from last night. I for one will find it extremely difficult standing up and applauding the players when they come out on Saturday after yesterday. I think I will just have to stay in my seat and enjoy my Clarks pie.

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57 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

WBA have used two formations this season.

Bristol City seven.

That's is drastically different.

Just looked at LJ's stats when he was manager at Barnsley and in 42 games he used 10 different formations................

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4 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

Just looked at LJ's stats when he was manager at Barnsley and in 42 games he used 10 different formations................

Exactly why he can't get the basics right.

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When we play well or win games I give all the credit to Johnson.

When we are play terrible I blame Johnson.

He buys the players. He coaches them. He picks the tactics, the team. It's his responsibility.

If it were the players fault then whoever the manager is would make no difference. As it's the players fault, not the manager. Which is obviously not true.

A different manager, let's say Bielsa would set us up completely differently to how LJ does, so we'd play completely differently to what we see every week.

It would not even be close to what we are seeing at the moment. It's 100% down to LJ.

I understand he has been unfortunate with Afobe. We should have brought in another.

But with what we have got he has to adapt. He is not really doing that. He keeps making the same mistakes. We can see he is making mistakes by all the changes mid game, often at half time or early second half he makes.

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4 hours ago, spudski said:

Anti 'Dave'? Behave yourself...got no problem with Dave...I agree with most of his posts...top bloke.

As for Fammy...he is totally inconsistent and lacks correct movement. One game unplayable...5 like a rank amateur.

I'm not anti Fammy...I like him and his effort and heart. But he lacks the consistency and natural intelligence of a forwards movement.

So wind her neck in and read my posts correctly with the intention they are meant.

I'm not anti anyone FFS...idiot 🙄

Dave is the name some idiots on here give to Diedhiou.  It's nothing to do with any individual on here.  I'm lumping you in with those idiots.

Perhaps you'd like to read my post and state how high up the "goals scored" table you'd like us to be before you'd accept our strikers as perhaps not the problem.

As to the highlighted bit, I've just looked up the word "ironic" in the dictionary....

 

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5 hours ago, grifty said:

Still, I'll be there to enjoy the ride whether its good or bad.

Thing is,  I'm  not enjoying the ride at the moment, good or bad...

 

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45 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

Just looked at LJ's stats when he was manager at Barnsley and in 42 games he used 10 different formations................

I've wondered if 4-3-3 will appear at some point to make it an eight this season. I simply thought the statement odd. Football teams differ significantly tactically in the championship. 

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7 hours ago, spudski said:

We created enough chances to win the game.

Problem is, if you've got a forward who can't hit a barn door from a few yards you aren't going to win games. You can only create so many chances.

It's purely down to consistency of quality imo...not the tactics. Too many players have quality on their day, but their day isn't consistent enough.

Yesterday we created the chances and our forward messed em up. Score them and we win easily.

Other days we don't create chances because of the total lack of movement into the correct areas in the final third.

All these problems of consistent inconsistency have a knock on effect and the pressure builds.

Nothing wrong with LJs tactics...the problem is recruiting players that aren't up to getting the job done on a consistent basis.

Too many rough diamonds that need developing.

Our front line needs moving on and replacing imo...all effort and heart but not enough quality where it matters.

"Nothing wrong with LJ's tactics".

And you put yourself forward as an authority on football here.

I'm no authority, but even I can tell that there is nothing right with Johnson's tactics. If you can even call them that.

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5 hours ago, spudski said:

You can see when you watch what they are trying to do.

The problem is doing it well on a regular basis. The players don't.

I'm glad you watch and you can see what they are trying to do. I also watch, I watch quite intently and yet for the life of me I cant see what they are trying to do other than playing it around the back and trying not to lose. So please do enlighten us all what we are trying to do? What you can see that no one but yourself can see. Thanks in advance.

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6 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I've wondered if 4-3-3 will appear at some point to make it an eight this season. I simply thought the statement odd. Football teams differ significantly tactically in the championship. 

It’s been posted on here for a while now so yea it will

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11 hours ago, spudski said:

We created enough chances to win the game.

Problem is, if you've got a forward who can't hit a barn door from a few yards you aren't going to win games. You can only create so many chances.

It's purely down to consistency of quality imo...not the tactics. Too many players have quality on their day, but their day isn't consistent enough.

Yesterday we created the chances and our forward messed em up. Score them and we win easily.

Other days we don't create chances because of the total lack of movement into the correct areas in the final third.

All these problems of consistent inconsistency have a knock on effect and the pressure builds.

Nothing wrong with LJs tactics...the problem is recruiting players that aren't up to getting the job done on a consistent basis.

Too many rough diamonds that need developing.

Our front line needs moving on and replacing imo...all effort and heart but not enough quality where it matters.

Let’s not just put the blame at Diedhiou’s door, Weimann has supposedly been playing as a striker for months as well & how many goals has he scored or how many opportunities is he in a position to get on the end of each game?

For me, the intensity has gone, we have a keeper that can distribute a ball quickly & yet 99% of the time the ball is rolled to our 2 least natural ball players, who then in turn slow play down further while they play back & forth to each other across the penalty area while the opposition have all got back into position while they await our eventual long punt forward to Diedhiou who is then left to fight for the ball against 2,3 or 4 defenders on his own!

We have become far too predictable, the opposition don’t have to worry about us catching them on the break because we simply don’t play quick enough from any situation, be that from Bentley’s hands, a throw-in or a quickly taken free-kick! There were numerous times against Shrewsbury (in particular) that Diedhiou & Eliasson had made runs while the ball is being fannied about with between Williams & Baker & they were left frustrated because the ball simply never came & after making those runs a few times each, it’s easy to become despondent as you wonder what the point is in making these runs, knowing the ball is never coming!!

Having a pass completion percentage of 90%+ is pointless is if it’s done at 1mph on the edge of our own area while giving us possession stats because it’s simply not allowing us to create anything, Bentley very rarely gets the ball in his hands & sends somebody chasing a long ball over the top while the oppositions defence is unorganised, we’ve played with 4 attackers in recent months & yet they are stood waiting for something to get their teeth into, now is the time to stop this playing out from the back where it takes 3 minutes & 30 passes before the ball gets to the halfway line & shock the opposition by putting the ball over the top. Don’t get me wrong, if we’re winning then by all means slow play down & keep possession but invariably this season, we haven’t been on the front foot enough to be leading at halftime or anywhere around there. We basically play to still be 0-0 at 70 minutes or hope that by some miracle we’ve managed to sneak a goal ourselves but invariably we go behind & only then do we show a bit of energy & emergency by actually getting the ball forward quicker.

We have gone from a team that was getting rave reviews for our footballing style 2 years ago to a side that is now boring even it’s own fans! Could that be because too much emphasis is put on stats, pass completion percentages & possession stats or is it because the players aren’t fit for purpose to do what’s needed & by that I mean having 2 non ball playing centre-halves who don’t have the ability on the ball to get an attack going? 

And moving on from where I’d say our problems stem from, you clearly don’t rate Diedhiou but given our options within our squad, who would you suggest could do a better job than him in the current situation? There is no one else, Semenyo was given an opportunity & showed no signs of wanting to play as a striker let alone any enthusiasm to be in the team. Weimann despite supposedly playing as a striker for the majority of time over recent months at the very least is very rarely actually ever seen trying to lead our front line & then that left Rodri! Who else is there to help take the pressure off of Diedhiou, to give him a rest, to help take some of the oppositions defenders away from him during a match? For the limited amount of chances we create during a match, his goal return isn’t bad & his overall performances haven’t been bad, I dread to think how much worse things could be if we didn’t have him up front for us right now!
 

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10 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I’ve watched it several times and it’s either poor foot movement or positioning or both meaning he never got close to a 25 yard daisy cutter with a full length dive.....

Williams and Moore in front of him had every right to expect that to be saved.

It wasn’t a ‘daisy cutter’ as you call it, the ball didn’t touch the grass until it hit the back of the net, so wasn’t slowed down by the heavy conditions. I wouldn’t blame Bentley for their goal, no one was probably expecting their centre half to come forward & hit a ball that has broken to him about 30 yards out first time, it’s probably about as likely as Baker or Williams doing similar for us & if they did, it would probably be more of a worry for the stewards in the car park than it would for the oppositions keeper!

It was a more than decent strike by someone that no one probably expected it from that came through a crowd of players. With a minute to go, he took a gamble & it paid off handsomely for him, fair play to the guy.

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Some great posts on this thread.  Perhaps the first time this season that I’ve felt that posters are really getting to the heart of what seems to be going wrong.  For me there are three issues (apart from our ludicrous injury record):  the obvious weakness up front; the lack of an incisive midfield player who can play the ‘killer pass’ (which should be Palmer, who has been a terrible let-down); and Johnson bowing to pressure to play Eliasson.  I do think the root of all of this is the Afobe injury, and since then we’ve been fire-fighting in attack.  Given that and other injuries, we’re actually doing way better than we should be, but we desperately need a striker or two now.

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28 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Some great posts on this thread.  Perhaps the first time this season that I’ve felt that posters are really getting to the heart of what seems to be going wrong.  For me there are three issues (apart from our ludicrous injury record):  the obvious weakness up front; the lack of an incisive midfield player who can play the ‘killer pass’ (which should be Palmer, who has been a terrible let-down); and Johnson bowing to pressure to play Eliasson.  I do think the root of all of this is the Afobe injury, and since then we’ve been fire-fighting in attack.  Given that and other injuries, we’re actually doing way better than we should be, but we desperately need a striker or two now.

If we didn’t play Eliasson where would our goals come from? Go back over the season so far.

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2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If we didn’t play Eliasson where would our goals come from? Go back over the season so far.

The point he is trying to make is that Johnson doesn’t want to play him, hence why he was always on the bench

it was only until the fans became more vocal about it that Johnson finally gave him a regular start

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1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

It wasn’t a ‘daisy cutter’ as you call it, the ball didn’t touch the grass until it hit the back of the net, so wasn’t slowed down by the heavy conditions. I wouldn’t blame Bentley for their goal, no one was probably expecting their centre half to come forward & hit a ball that has broken to him about 30 yards out first time, it’s probably about as likely as Baker or Williams doing similar for us & if they did, it would probably be more of a worry for the stewards in the car park than it would for the oppositions keeper!

It was a more than decent strike by someone that no one probably expected it from that came through a crowd of players. With a minute to go, he took a gamble & it paid off handsomely for him, fair play to the guy.

We can argue all day about this but what I won’t have is that a pro Keeper “wasn’t expecting” the shot!!! They aren’t paid £15k a week to get caught out by not expecting things like that to happen😂. The ball didnt “break” to the lad, he played an intentional 1-2 with his centre forward, more reason for the keeper to “expect” the shot.

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1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

The point he is trying to make is that Johnson doesn’t want to play him, hence why he was always on the bench

it was only until the fans became more vocal about it that Johnson finally gave him a regular start

But that then surely shows that the man is a bloody moron? No other team would not play the most creative player in the Championship, he should be building the team around him not trying  hard not to play him. 

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2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We can argue all day about this but what I won’t have is that a pro Keeper “wasn’t expecting” the shot!!! They aren’t paid £15k a week to get caught out by not expecting things like that to happen😂. The ball didnt “break” to the lad, he played an intentional 1-2 with his centre forward, more reason for the keeper to “expect” the shot.

Which had 6 city players around him not challenging not tackling 

if you want to place the blame then the players who are responsible are Palmer and brownhill for not doing there ******* job, then Moore and Williams for not doing there

the keeper is blameless 

2 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

But that then surely shows that the man is a bloody moron? No other team would not play the most creative player in the Championship, he should be building the team around him not trying  hard not to play him. 

Yep 100% correct he is inept and needs to go

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If you are a manager (or "Head Coach") you take responsibility for the performance of your team.

That's as true of football, as it is in any other enterprise.

You've put them in the positions they are in, given them instructions and the encouragement and tools they need to do the job.

The buck stops with you.

That's what leadership is all about. And management is leadership - or it should be!

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1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

The point he is trying to make is that Johnson doesn’t want to play him, hence why he was always on the bench

it was only until the fans became more vocal about it that Johnson finally gave him a regular start

I think the team should be built around the things that Elliasson brings as he’s without doubt our most “effective” player. For a Manager who trusts stats so much it’s weird that he doesn’t trust those of our most creative player!!

14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Which had 6 city players around him not challenging not tackling 

if you want to place the blame then the players who are responsible are Palmer and brownhill for not doing there ******* job, then Moore and Williams for not doing there

the keeper is blameless 

Yep 100% correct he is inept and needs to go

This is going nowhere, nobodies opinion will change!!

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7 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We can argue all day about this but what I won’t have is that a pro Keeper “wasn’t expecting” the shot!!! They aren’t paid £15k a week to get caught out by not expecting things like that to happen😂. The ball didnt “break” to the lad, he played an intentional 1-2 with his centre forward, more reason for the keeper to “expect” the shot.

You name me one centre half in world football, let alone league 1, that if looking to play a one-two with a striker, when on the centre circle at the time, you are then expecting the ball that has broken back to him (it wasn’t an intentional pass back to him, it broke under challenge / mis-control) at 30 yards out, you are expecting to smash one into the bottom corner through a crowd of at least 6 players.

The guy took a gamble & it paid off, for me it was a great strike & I’d love to see one of our midfielders try such a thing, let alone one of our centre-halves. I think credit needs to go to Pierre more so than criticism to Bentley but I guess that’s the joys of football, some people appreciate a decent piece of play while others can find someone to blame. In theory, every goal conceded can be blamed on someone, that’s why you’ll often hear a manager complain that conceded ‘bad goals’ from a defensive point of view while the other manager will praise the attacking play that produced their goal(s).

So while Bentley on £15k p/w should be saving that (in your eyes), De Gea on £350k p/w should surely never be conceding a goal EVER, especially while his defenders & midfielders in front of him are earning just as ridiculously high wages to do their job?!? And the likes of Neymar should never allow a keeper to save a shot or put one wide or over? It is sport, there are lots a variables & no one is perfect & if they were, they wouldn’t be playing for Bristol City in the 2nd tier of English football.

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13 hours ago, Harry said:

 

Last night they were dreadful at the basics. All of them. 
 

It was after losing dismally to Blackburn, that LJ said we must be "world class" at the basics, in the Championship. Four weeks later, we are "dreadful at the basics" against a modest L1 team. 

Are the coaches able to identify problems and rectify them, or just identify them?

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12 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

If you do want to look at a player it would be interesting to get Dan Bentleys perspective of the goal. Weak as piss goalkeeping I thought.

I have to admit when I first saw it I thought he should be saving that.

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13 hours ago, Harry said:

We don’t have the players to successfully adopt a high press game. 
That game was based largely around Reid being the catalyst. He had the intelligence to know when and where to press, what angles to take, understanding where the rest of the team were in terms of shape, overloads etc. 
Bobby would instigate. He had lively players around him who would react to the press and understand when and where to push - Smith, Bryan, Brownhill. They generally had bundles of energy and would press all day. 
But ultimately, we had Pack sitting in front of the back line, as a security blanket if the press failed and the opposition managed to play round us. The security of a sitting DM and 2 solid CB’s who wouldn’t get drawn out of shape, stayed tight and didn’t allow spaces down the middle. Coupled with another full back (usually Wright, or Magnússon the other side) who would also stay deeper and not chase high up the pitch. 
 

We don’t have the players now to replicate this. 
We don’t have a Reid, who knows when to spark it off. 
We don’t have full backs or a DM who are prepared to sit in and keep a shape. 

If we try to play a high press with this squad, we will very quickly get passed through and see our CB’s under immediate pressure with very little cover in front or to the side. 
 

It’s not a poor tactic by LJ to not play the press. It’s a lifesaver. He obviously knows the limitations of the players he has. 
 

That's a sweeping post. You omitted that Lee Johnson has not wanted to do this for seasons. 

High pressing is a just a term. There are numerous versions. Bristol City do have the players to play higher out of possession. Patterson has and Weimann certainly can. 

That game was based largely around Reid being the catalyst. He had the intelligence to know … Reid at that point had only played a small part of his career in that position. He had obviously learned the skills to play in the position. And that is what pressing is a skill of differing parts including a very high fitness level. Lee Johnson clearly did help to develop Bobby Reid's game successfully here could he not have done similar with the large group of players he has?

It is very uneven to state that City pressing was dependant on one player without considering why.  A why is that earlier Lee Johnson has not wanted to do this for seasons. If he desired to in this timescale as part of the identity he refers to he would have recruited and developed the players to press higher in one of its multiple variants. Mr Johnson with this timescale has chosen to play and bring in individuals who lack the discipline, fitness and intensity (the skills) to aggressively press the opposition. 

The above really is a choice unless people believe season after season Lee Johnson is being given players without the basic key skills for the football he wants to pursue.

Pressing (high) Is not witchcraft that depends solely on players called Reid.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That's a sweeping post. You omitted that Lee Johnson has not wanted to do this for seasons. 

High pressing is a just a term. There are numerous versions. Bristol City do have the players to play higher out of possession. Patterson has and Weimann certainly can. 

That game was based largely around Reid being the catalyst. He had the intelligence to know … Reid at that point had only played a small part of his career in that position. He had obviously learned the skills to play in the position. And that is what pressing is a skill of differing parts including a very high fitness level. Lee Johnson clearly did help to develop Bobby Reid's game successfully here could he not have done similar with the large group of players he has?

It is very uneven to state that City pressing was dependant on one player without considering why.  A why is that earlier Lee Johnson has not wanted to do this for seasons. If he desired to in this timescale as part of the identity he refers to he would have recruited and developed the players to press higher in one of its multiple variants. Mr Johnson with this timescale has chosen to play and bring in individuals who lack the discipline, fitness and intensity (the skills) to aggressively press the opposition. 

The above really is a choice unless people believe season after season Lee Johnson is being given players without the basic key skills for the football he wants to pursue.

Pressing (high) Is not witchcraft that depends solely on players called Reid.

 

 

Off of that, the key to beating us is to press high, we can’t cope with it,

thata why we are so predictable

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1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

You name me one centre half in world football, let alone league 1, that if looking to play a one-two with a striker, when on the centre circle at the time, you are then expecting the ball that has broken back to him (it wasn’t an intentional pass back to him, it broke under challenge / mis-control) at 30 yards out, you are expecting to smash one into the bottom corner through a crowd of at least 6 players.

The guy took a gamble & it paid off, for me it was a great strike & I’d love to see one of our midfielders try such a thing, let alone one of our centre-halves. I think credit needs to go to Pierre more so than criticism to Bentley but I guess that’s the joys of football, some people appreciate a decent piece of play while others can find someone to blame. In theory, every goal conceded can be blamed on someone, that’s why you’ll often hear a manager complain that conceded ‘bad goals’ from a defensive point of view while the other manager will praise the attacking play that produced their goal(s).

So while Bentley on £15k p/w should be saving that (in your eyes), De Gea on £350k p/w should surely never be conceding a goal EVER, especially while his defenders & midfielders in front of him are earning just as ridiculously high wages to do their job?!? And the likes of Neymar should never allow a keeper to save a shot or put one wide or over? It is sport, there are lots a variables & no one is perfect & if they were, they wouldn’t be playing for Bristol City in the 2nd tier of English football.

I literally get all that. I just have an opinion that Bentley is more than good enough to save that shot. That’s my opinion. I didn’t say he’s crap, I haven’t denied that if there was a POTS vote right now he’d be walking away with the gong if it was down to me to decide (an easy choice atm btw).

I just think he could have done better on a single goal nothing more, nothing less.

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1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

If you are a manager (or "Head Coach") you take responsibility for the performance of your team.

That's as true of football, as it is in any other enterprise.

You've put them in the positions they are in, given them instructions and the encouragement and tools they need to do the job.

The buck stops with you.

That's what leadership is all about. And management is leadership - or it should be!

You've certainly hit the nail firmly on the head mate. No leadership qualities off or on the pitch imo.........

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4 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

You've certainly hit the nail firmly on the head mate. No leadership qualities off or on the pitch imo.........

This is where Ashton’s DNA BS falls over. Where and who are the real “leaders” in our side? Bentley and Williams at a stretch perhaps. Hunt is a warrior in himself, Kalas similar but not a leader of others. In front of that there is NOBODY. Why don’t we sign on pitch leaders? Did the DNA tests get cancelled?

Edited by Numero Uno

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