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Abraham Romanovich

Barnsley Fans View on LJ and our Club

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11 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

i'd check the accounts before making such a claim,

We've broken our transfer record 3 or 4 times under johnson

I would argue that’s mainly due to more money in football as a whole than Johnson just being backed more. Transfer records are regularly broken every transfer window.

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4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

 

I’d take off those tinted specs as they seem to have interfered with your understanding

I recommend you read DaveFevs post here and look , and understand a little deeper 

And those accounts confirm we're only keeping our heads above water financially by our profits on player trading

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1 minute ago, Matty_Taylor_is_god said:

I would argue that’s mainly due to more money in football as a whole than Johnson just being backed more. Transfer records are regularly broken every transfer window.

no they aren't,

maybe in the top flight which is awash with money outside of that however not at all

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2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

And those accounts confirm we're only keeping our heads above water financially by our profits on player trading

thats about as far from the truth as you can get,

we are 50 million in debt, the only reason we are 50 million in debt is because lansdown since he's been at the helm has written off 200 million quid

also 2019 accounts is the first time bristol city football club made a profit since 1997

Edited by Monkeh
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10 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

And those accounts confirm we're only keeping our heads above water financially by our profits on player trading

Yes , that’s right

And that’s because we’ve signed 50 plus players , many on good wages ,

we have a large wage bill and running costs, and thus need to sell,  not because we pay top wages, which we don’t , but predominantly because Johnson has managed after 4 years and about 7 windows to assemble an unbalanced bloated squad,  which currently appears a shambles , and in which he hasn’t got a clue of his best team or formation  or way of playing

We have million pound + players and multi million pound players who can’t even make match day squads 

Not a problem when you’re spending others money I guess But is a major flaw holding us back

 

 

**

Sorry I forgot , recruitment is nothing to do with Lee , it’s all that Mark Ashton’s fault - he just keeps turning up handing Lee more and more players without Lees say so

I guess you do realise that to date , he’s sold ONE player that he’s signed , at a profit 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes , that’s right

And that’s because we’ve signed 50 plus players , many on good wages ,

we have a large wage bill and running costs, and thus need to sell,  not because we pay top wages, which we don’t , but predominantly because Johnson has managed after 4 years and about 7 windows to assemble an unbalanced bloated squad,  which currently appears a shambles , and in which he hasn’t got a clue of his best team or formation  or way of playing

We have million pound + players and multi million pound players who can’t even make match day squads 

Not a problem when you’re spending others money I guess But is a major flaw holding us back

 

 

**

Sorry I forgot , recruitment is nothing to do with Lee , it’s all that Mark Ashton’s fault - he just keeps turning up handing Lee more and more players without Lees say so

 

Yup. I just wish we did what Leeds are. Spending it on concentrated quality over quantity.

Imagine if we lumped Watkins/O'Dowda/Smith's wages into one star player 😕 

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2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Yup. I just wish we did what Leeds are. Spending it on concentrated quality over quantity.

Imagine if we lumped Watkins/O'Dowda/Smith's wages into one star player 😕 

like we did with cotts

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3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes , that’s right

And that’s because we’ve signed 50 plus players , many on good wages ,

we have a large wage bill and running costs, and thus need to sell,  not because we pay top wages, which we don’t , but predominantly because Johnson has managed after 4 years and about 7 windows to assemble an unbalanced bloated squad,  which currently appears a shambles , and in which he hasn’t got a clue of his best team or formation  or way of playing

We have million pound + players and multi million pound players who can’t even make match day squads 

Not a problem when you’re spending others money I guess But is a major flaw holding us back

 

 

**

Sorry I forgot , recruitment is nothing to do with Lee , it’s all that Mark Ashton’s fault - he just keeps turning up handing Lee more and more players without Lees say so

 

Other clubs in the Championship are envious of our recruitment record and wish they could do as well, it's been one of our great success stories. There will always be duff signings that goes with the territory but we've had some great successes with several sales over £10M, most Championship clubs have got nowhere near that.

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1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

Other clubs in the Championship are envious of our recruitment record and wish they could do as well, it's been one of our great success stories. There will always be duff signings that goes with the territory but we've had some great successes with several sales over £10M, most Championship clubs have got nowhere near that.

who?

Edited by Monkeh
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5 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Other clubs in the Championship are envious of our recruitment record and wish they could do as well, it's been one of our great success stories. There will always be duff signings that goes with the territory but we've had some great successes with several sales over £10M, most Championship clubs have got nowhere near that.

Really ?

Who & who has said so exactly ?

As for your several sales over £10 m claim

Theres been two Webster, and Kelly who was an academy graduate , not recruited and joins Academy graduated Bryan and a Reid as our major sales

 

So what was this about our recruitment success ?  

 

or were you referring to someone like Brentford ?

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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Just now, ashton_fan said:

Other clubs in the Championship are envious of our recruitment record and wish they could do as well, it's been one of our great success stories. There will always be duff signings that goes with the territory but we've had some great successes with several sales over £10M, most Championship clubs have got nowhere near that.

If I signed 50 players I would hope a few of them would go on to better things. The trick is finding quality to start with and then nurturing it. Lees polucy is more hit and hope.

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7 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Yep LJ laid the foundations .

:whistle2:

I work in Oldham so follow the club quite closely. You’ve got it wrong I’m afraid. 

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6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Really ?

Who & who has said so exactly ?

As for your several sales over £10 m claim

Theres been two Webster, and Kelly who was an academy graduate , not recruited and joins Academy graduated Bryan and a Reid as our major sales

 

So what was this about our recruitment success ?  

 

or were you referring to someone like Brentford ?

You forgot Kodjia

This is typical of what I've seen on other forums:

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:19 pm
Forum: Leeds United Chat
Topic: Pontus Jansson
Replies: 238
Views: 18122

Re: Save our Swede?

£5.5mil is an insult.

Selling him to another English club especially if it is in this division is insanity.

Bristol City got £13mil for Lloyd Kelly.

Pontus Jansson's brother vehemently defending Pontus.

The club are 100% forcing him out.
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2 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

You forgot Kodjia

This is typical of what I've seen on other forums:

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:19 pm
Forum: Leeds United Chat
Topic: Pontus Jansson
Replies: 238
Views: 18122

Re: Save our Swede?

£5.5mil is an insult.

Selling him to another English club especially if it is in this division is insanity.

Bristol City got £13mil for Lloyd Kelly.

Pontus Jansson's brother vehemently defending Pontus.

The club are 100% forcing him out.
  •  

I did

Well we can credit LJ for recruiting him

 

........oh hang on .........

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2 hours ago, Famara's Party Hat said:

No they don’t. That’s not how that works.

I have nothing to add, I just think your name and avatar are exceptional work. 

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3 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

You forgot Kodjia

This is typical of what I've seen on other forums:

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:19 pm
Forum: Leeds United Chat
Topic: Pontus Jansson
Replies: 238
Views: 18122

Re: Save our Swede?

£5.5mil is an insult.

Selling him to another English club especially if it is in this division is insanity.

Bristol City got £13mil for Lloyd Kelly.

Pontus Jansson's brother vehemently defending Pontus.

The club are 100% forcing him out.
  •  

Cotts signed kodja

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Just now, Monkeh said:

Cotts signed kodja

 

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I did

Well we can credit LJ for recruiting him

 

........oh hang on .........

We were talking about players sold in the context of company accounts not about LJ who only has a partial role in transfers anyway, sorry if I implies something positive about LJ and upset you

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6 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

 

We were talking about players sold in the context of company accounts not about LJ who only has a partial role in transfers anyway, sorry if I implies something positive about LJ and upset you

Just confused by your claims 

You seem to be looking to make excuses when his 50 plays purchases were raised, and claimed in this thread

LJ's made a vast profit for the club.’

Yet you now state ‘LJ who only has a partial role in transfers anyway’

Very confusing

 

 

(Sorry If challenging your inaccuratepoints seems to have disturbed you)

 

PS  is your Leeds forum post your evidence of other clubs envy of our ‘recruitment’ ?

And 

Are you saying that LJ should take the credit for the fee Bournemouth paid ?

 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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3 hours ago, Monkeh said:

any fan base who's spent upward to 25 million in the transfer window has a right to expect a high position in the league

As long as outgoings have no outcome on a season, absolutely.

Edited by RonWalker

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19 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

Whatever happened to Barnsley_tyke, guaranteed that he would be on this forum about 3 weeks ahead of the actual game!!!

Think he went too far when talking about Johnson!

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1 minute ago, Super said:

Think he went too far when talking about Johnson!

He should keep his Johnson to himself

 

Dity northern monkey

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1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

Taylor Moore is so much better since he went out on loan, I think he'll continue to improve and will have a great future at Prem level

He may well be, but his play style simply is not that of Webster's and it never will be. Moore cannot be considered a Webster replacement as Webster's play style was so integral to ours as a team. Moore's play style is more similar to Kalas'

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49 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Just confused by your claims 

You seem to be looking to make excuses when his 50 plays purchases were raised, and claimed in this thread

LJ's made a vast profit for the club.’

Yet you now state ‘LJ who only has a partial role in transfers anyway’

Very confusing

 

 

(Sorry If challenging your inaccuratepoints seems to have disturbed you)

 

PS  is your Leeds forum post your evidence of other clubs envy of our ‘recruitment’ ?

And 

Are you saying that LJ should take the credit for the fee Bournemouth paid ?

 

In fairness Bob, Webster went from being a £3.5m (?) purchase 2 summers ago to being a £20m premier league player 12 months later. LJ understandably gets a lot of stick for aspects of his his coaching, but Webster's improvement occurred under his direction. Similarly, while Kelly came through the club's academy, his senior development again happened under LJ's direction. 

In view of this, it's not unfair to credit LJ with contributing in no small way to the profit generated on these players' sales - that and Ashton's "have your pants down" negotiating ability!

Or is it the case that player's improvement and development only happens despite the coaching they receive while at the club, not because of it, as it seems that at the moment any negative aspects of the club are down to LJ while any positives are always due to someone else?

As I've said in other posts, I'm certainly not an out and out LJ apologist, and feel that he is now at a critical watershed point in his time here, but in many fans' eyes he cannot now do any right for doing wrong.

I'm surprised that fans haven't blamed him for Harry & Megan's  problems, the return of majority Conservative Government and Brexit! 

 

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1 minute ago, downendcity said:

In fairness Bob, Webster went from being a £3.5m (?) purchase 2 summers ago to being a £20m premier league player 12 months later. LJ understandably gets a lot of stick for aspects of his his coaching, but Webster's improvement occurred under his direction. Similarly, while Kelly came through the club's academy, his senior development again happened under LJ's direction. 

In view of this, it's not unfair to credit LJ with contributing in no small way to the profit generated on these players' sales - that and Ashton's "have your pants down" negotiating ability!

Or is it the case that player's improvement and development only happens despite the coaching they receive while at the club, not because of it, as it seems that at the moment any negative aspects of the club are down to LJ while any positives are always due to someone else?

As I've said in other posts, I'm certainly not an out and out LJ apologist, and feel that he is now at a critical watershed point in his time here, but in many fans' eyes he cannot now do any right for doing wrong.

I'm surprised that fans haven't blamed him for Harry & Megan's  problems, the return of majority Conservative Government and Brexit! 

 

That was Johnson’s fault too?

Bloody leaver ruining my future

bloody remoanoner ruining my future

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1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

thats about as far from the truth as you can get,

we are 50 million in debt, the only reason we are 50 million in debt is because lansdown since he's been at the helm has written off 200 million quid

also 2019 accounts is the first time bristol city football club made a profit since 1997

I think ashton_fan is really talking about keeping our heads above water in relation to ffp rules i.e. profit/oss and not our indebtedness, or otherwise, to SL. 

We are more than fortunate to have the owner we have, who is wealthy enough that he can, and is prepared to, effectively write off massive amounts of money he has invested in the club. Quite a bit of this has been to invest in infrastructure, i.e stadium redevelopment, that will then help generate increased income for the club, thereby improving our financial position in terms of profitability.

That notwithstanding, we still trade at a loss and because SL is only allowed to cover losses up to certain level under ffp, we still need profit on player sales to ensure we don't break the ffp limits and incur potentially damaging penalties.  @Mr Popodopolous will be able to give accurate figures, but I think we needed a profit in 2019 to make sure it offset the losses for the there 2 years in the 3 year cycle and kept us within ffp, but when 3 years ago drops off the ffp calculations I think we could be in a better position, even though I think we will still be making a loss without further player sales.

 

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2 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Who ******* cares what some Barnsley fans think. We have Eddie Nketiah and he’s going to get a hat trick on Saturday!

Blokes a magician...

Movement's so good it like he's invisible..

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3 hours ago, Monkeh said:

he has spent all the money, look at the player turnover, we've signed over 50 players and they aren't all free transfers

How many have left?

just out of interest as I have no clue

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2 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Who ******* cares what some Barnsley fans think. We have Eddie Nketiah and he’s going to get a hat trick on Saturday!

Sorry REDOXO,we signed him but immediately loaned him back to Arsenal to get some experience .

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14 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Blokes a magician...

Movement's so good it like he's invisible..

He'll be "ghosting" into the penalty area on Saturday.

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15 minutes ago, NOTBLUE said:

Sorry REDOXO,we signed him but immediately loaned him back to Arsenal to get some experience .

Oh bugger. Really!

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2 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

Don't have to check the accounts the figures output in the press don't even come close eg Webster sold £23m Kalas bought £8m, Flint sold £8m Webster bought £3.5M, Bryan sold £10m DaSilva bought £3m - these figures won't be exact but whatever they are LJ's made a vast profit for the club.

bryan,reid,kelly all cost nothing and came through the youth setup

flint ,freeman,abraham etc brought in by cotterill i think

if we do it fair,list the players johnson has brought in and the players other managers brought in then you'll get a better reflection of how good he is at buisness.

and remember its ashton and the top brass that sort fees not johnson

Edited by MRSATAN
missed word
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4 hours ago, RedDave said:

Look at Nett spend. That’s the only true picture 

Very true. It’s also , what you do with that net spend. That’s where a lot of the criticism comes from my point of view. Seems a scattergun approach to signings in terms of positions to fit a system etc . That’s not just criticism of LJ but MA JL and SL  

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3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes , that’s right

And that’s because we’ve signed 50 plus players , many on good wages ,

we have a large wage bill and running costs, and thus need to sell,  not because we pay top wages, which we don’t , but predominantly because Johnson has managed after 4 years and about 7 windows to assemble an unbalanced bloated squad,  which currently appears a shambles , and in which he hasn’t got a clue of his best team or formation  or way of playing

We have million pound + players and multi million pound players who can’t even make match day squads 

Not a problem when you’re spending others money I guess But is a major flaw holding us back

 

 

**

Sorry I forgot , recruitment is nothing to do with Lee , it’s all that Mark Ashton’s fault - he just keeps turning up handing Lee more and more players without Lees say so

I guess you do realise that to date , he’s sold ONE player that he’s signed , at a profit 

50 players signed.

any idea how many players  have left the club?

a genuine question, I’m not being sarcastic 👍

Edited by Bobby Bollax
Grammar

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2 hours ago, Olé said:

I have nothing to add, I just think your name and avatar are exceptional work. 

I had a brief dispute with Fam's Party Hat earlier, which ended in politeness.

I share your thoughts on both the name and the avatar. Amongst the finest of recent times.

Take a bow @Famara's Party Hat 

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6 hours ago, Monkeh said:

 

any fan base who's spent upward to 25 million in the transfer window has a right to expect a high position in the league

Is that really true? With how much players cost these days ... yes i know blades didnt but is our spending that much bigger than say Forest/Leeds/Derby/sheff wednesday teams who have bigger attendances , so have more to spend but have up nd down the champ in previous seasons? 

None of the teams have gone up in years maybe Derby have in the last decade? 

Edited by miketh2nd

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5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Well at one stage we were threatening the top two , then We where in fourth , then sixth and now what is it 9th ? 
 

The expectation is just a bit of consistency.

No City fan ever ‘ expects ‘ us to be in the Prem but we do hope and we are largely disappointed to be dropping off the pace when every thing should be in place for a proper go at the play offs. 

Agree with all of that. Also a few of us would expect to be entertained and not bored to tears at most home games. 

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53 minutes ago, MRSATAN said:

bryan,reid,kelly all cost nothing and came through the youth setup

flint ,freeman,abraham etc brought in by cotterill i think

if we do it fair,list the players johnson has brought in and the players other managers brought in then you'll get a better reflection of how good he is at buisness.

and remember its ashton and the top brass that sort fees not johnson

Flint was Sod and Tammy was LJ , freeman little and korey were cotteril i dont recall getting much profit from cotterils signings other than kodja? 

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6 hours ago, RedDave said:

Look at Nett spend. That’s the only true picture 

Why is it? That makes no sense at all.

Take two clubs. They both buy a player for £2m.

Club A's player does amazingly, and goes at the end of the season for £30m which they invest back in the team.

Club B's player does ok, and goes for £1m. They invest in another £2m player.

Club A's net spend: -£2m (-£2m + £30m when he's sold, -£30m on new players).

Club B's net spend: -£3m (-£2m + £1m when he's sold, - £2m on a new player). 

So your argument is Club B are in a better position because of their net spend (more investment?!) - even though Club A now have a squad with £30m of investment?

Not to mention that investment in our players (Kelly, for example) is on potential - £20m on him != £20m of quality removed from our squad. It just doesn't work like that.

Edited by IAmNick

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4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Yep LJ laid the foundations .

:whistle2:

What, all of them! :shocking:

 

foundations.jpg.69e558f9943d1bcd2b08a15e010dd17b.jpg

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5 hours ago, Monkeh said:

he has spent all the money, look at the player turnover, we've signed over 50 players and they aren't all free transfers

I’m not sure what you’re failing to grasp here....

LJ has not spent all, or anywhere even close too, the amount of transfer funds that he has had to sell...! 

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4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Just confused by your claims 

You seem to be looking to make excuses when his 50 plays purchases were raised, and claimed in this thread

LJ's made a vast profit for the club.’

Yet you now state ‘LJ who only has a partial role in transfers anyway’

Very confusing

 

 

(Sorry If challenging your inaccuratepoints seems to have disturbed you)

 

PS  is your Leeds forum post your evidence of other clubs envy of our ‘recruitment’ ?

And 

Are you saying that LJ should take the credit for the fee Bournemouth paid ?

 

You should also take into account players LJ has brought in who would be sold off for a greater sum if they went tomorrow. 

You could use that argument for Moore, Brownhill, Diedhiou, Eliasson, O'Dowda, even DaSilva and Bentley. 

Add into that Webster's fee and Kelly's as well, both of whom were players brought in for relatively little (or from the academy in Kelly's case) and went for much, much more. 

LJ should take some credit for those transfers because he developed the players into premier league talents

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5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

 

I’d take off those tinted specs as they seem to have interfered with your understanding

I recommend you read DaveFevs post here and look , and understand a little deeper 

Hi Bob....not sure your re-appearance is that well timed, but I’m glad you’re back on here. 👍🏻

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes , that’s right

And that’s because we’ve signed 50 plus players , many on good wages ,

we have a large wage bill and running costs, and thus need to sell,  not because we pay top wages, which we don’t , but predominantly because Johnson has managed after 4 years and about 7 windows to assemble an unbalanced bloated squad,  which currently appears a shambles , and in which he hasn’t got a clue of his best team or formation  or way of playing

We have million pound + players and multi million pound players who can’t even make match day squads 

Not a problem when you’re spending others money I guess But is a major flaw holding us back

 

 

**

Sorry I forgot , recruitment is nothing to do with Lee , it’s all that Mark Ashton’s fault - he just keeps turning up handing Lee more and more players without Lees say so

I guess you do realise that to date , he’s sold ONE player that he’s signed , at a profit 

Exactly.  I‘ve taught you well 🤣

Seriously though, net spend is bullocks these days.  With a more efficient squad, relying on your Morrell’s to compete for a place, you can wipe £6-7m off the wage bill and amortised costs and with FFP excludables, your manager can spend everything they bring in.  We still lose money each year (and stay within FFP), but we are today....but we are using our pretty decent selling skills to max out recruitment in.  At the mo’ LJ is hamstrung by not being able to spend all he (MA) brings in, but that’s because he’s hamstrung himself with squad costs!  

3 hours ago, downendcity said:

I think ashton_fan is really talking about keeping our heads above water in relation to ffp rules i.e. profit/oss and not our indebtedness, or otherwise, to SL. 

We are more than fortunate to have the owner we have, who is wealthy enough that he can, and is prepared to, effectively write off massive amounts of money he has invested in the club. Quite a bit of this has been to invest in infrastructure, i.e stadium redevelopment, that will then help generate increased income for the club, thereby improving our financial position in terms of profitability.

That notwithstanding, we still trade at a loss and because SL is only allowed to cover losses up to certain level under ffp, we still need profit on player sales to ensure we don't break the ffp limits and incur potentially damaging penalties.  @Mr Popodopolous will be able to give accurate figures, but I think we needed a profit in 2019 to make sure it offset the losses for the there 2 years in the 3 year cycle and kept us within ffp, but when 3 years ago drops off the ffp calculations I think we could be in a better position, even though I think we will still be making a loss without further player sales.

 

Here you go:

81237DB4-CEC1-4161-8D01-07D5E1AE38DB.thumb.jpeg.a9120bfa71aa22b6c437801ed0b3ded8.jpeg
 

The above contains an error...Webster I didn’t include the cost of his original fee and sell-on to Ipswich, so that £4.7m comes disn to about ZERO 😱😱😱

If however you think FFP excludables are £5m pa (rather than my cautious £3m - Cat 2 Academy), then we’ve got £6m in the kitty (£2m x 3 year cycle).

38 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I’m not sure what you’re failing to grasp here....

LJ has not spent all, or anywhere even close too, the amount of transfer funds that he has had to sell...! 

As above , because the difference is spent on wages, amortisation and the cost of running the club.

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1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

Why is it? That makes no sense at all.

Take two clubs. They both buy a player for £2m.

Club A's player does amazingly, and goes at the end of the season for £30m which they invest back in the team.

Club B's player does ok, and goes for £1m. They invest in another £2m player.

Club A's net spend: -£2m (-£2m + £30m when he's sold, -£30m on new players).

Club B's net spend: -£3m (-£2m + £1m when he's sold, - £2m on a new player). 

So your argument is Club B are in a better position because of their net spend (more investment?!) - even though Club A now have a squad with £30m of investment?

Not to mention that investment in our players (Kelly, for example) is on potential - £20m on him != £20m of quality removed from our squad. It just doesn't work like that.

Team A has spotted a player and improved them and sold them on. If they sell for £20m then reinvest that, they then have a nett spend of £2m but a much stronger squad.  Well played

Team B made a poor signing and now have a worse squad. 

You have to credit the team that develop and sell for doing so aka Bristol city 

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8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Team A has spotted a player and improved them and sold them on. If they sell for £20m then reinvest that, they then have a nett spend of £2m but a much stronger squad.  Well played

Team B made a poor signing and now have a worse squad. 

You have to credit the team that develop and sell for doing so aka Bristol city 

Absolutely - but they have the same net spend which you said was the "only true picture", even though they now have very different squads . Clearly that's not the case though, it's much more nuanced than that.

It's funny how the only "true" measure always seems to be the only one that lines up with that persons argument ;) 

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9 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Absolutely - but they have the same net spend which you said was the "only true picture", even though they now have very different squads . Clearly that's not the case though, it's much more nuanced than that.

It's funny how the only "true" measure always seems to be the only one that lines up with that persons argument ;) 

What I meant is don’t judge city on how much they hate spent versus others in this league, judge them on nett spend v nett spend. It gives a much truer picture 

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