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LJ challenging SL ?


Major Isewater

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Interesting that LJ has spoken out 3 times in the last couple of weeks, clearly saying that the recruitment is all down to Ashton. 
 

I’ve made the point on here many times but people seem keen to not want to believe it. It’s all too easy to berate the manager for all of the signings. 
Most people’s argument against me was that LJ never says anything about the transfer policy, never speaks out about his frustration. 
 

Well, he’s very subtly hinted about it 3 times this last week or so and putting the pressure onto Ashton to deliver. 
 

Perhaps people will start to realise now that it’s Ashton’s responsibility and LJ only plays a small role in the identification, recruitment and ratification of incomings. 
 

 

Actually, if you listen to the 10 minute press conference, he doesn’t say that at all. 

4mins 50 onwards in the press conference LJ says, and I quote - “The talent ID is down to me”

He goes on to say the negotiations etc are down to MA. 

I’m not sure why you are so desperate to relinquish any responsibility from LJ for the signings we have made?

29 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I listened to LJ on the radio as I drove back yesterday...and for all my scepticism about him I'm increasingly with you on this. 

Listen to the 10 minute press conference

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38 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

So were we in for Brewster or did the Ryan Kent episode scupper our chances of getting a loan from Liverpool?

It’s all gone very quiet from the club about bringing anyone in up front..

I would have no Idea who our targets are, as far as Brewster is concerned, I believe someone on here mentioned their coach worked with our U18s? Which would give them some advantages.All I know is that Ashton said that all the deals are always being worked on, transfer window or no.

As for your second point, the club never discloses it’s targets, everything we think we know comes from speculation and leaks. Maybe they have got better at keeping secrets?

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2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

⬇️

1 hour ago, Kibs said:

I think Dave Fevs mentioned it yesterday too but at the game yesterday, we also discussed whether his refusal to make any subs for so long was his “Steve Cotterill” moment and a message to the board.

What I would say though is that he has been given more than enough resource in the transfer market to put the squad together he wants. 

No, wasn’t me, but I did think he delayed and delayed and delayed making a sub because the game could’ve gone either way.  In some ways why break up the eleven on the pitch, who are tuned into the game.  So he left it late, 5 mins from the end.  I was a bit critical of it last night, but on reflection this morning, I probably would’ve done similar.

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Interesting that LJ has spoken out 3 times in the last couple of weeks, clearly saying that the recruitment is all down to Ashton. 
 

I’ve made the point on here many times but people seem keen to not want to believe it. It’s all too easy to berate the manager for all of the signings. 
Most people’s argument against me was that LJ never says anything about the transfer policy, never speaks out about his frustration. 
 

Well, he’s very subtly hinted about it 3 times this last week or so and putting the pressure onto Ashton to deliver. 
 

Perhaps people will start to realise now that it’s Ashton’s responsibility and LJ only plays a small role in the identification, recruitment and ratification of incomings. 
 

 

Depends what you’re calling recruitment Harry?  If you’re talking about doing the deal, I don’t think any of us doubt that MA’s job, and SL signs off the £s.

But you’ve previously stated that he’s been given players he doesn’t want.

This was LJ yesterday:

"That bit [securing targets] is not down to me. Without putting too much pressure on Mark Ashton, that’s his job. The pressure of winning football matches and the talent ID is down to me but it’s his job to do his very best.

"I just think that there’s not much moving because it’s like a house chain.

Here’s the link:

That to me is pretty clear that Lee is heavily involved in identifying the players within the “process”, and he’s said often enough that he has final say.  I think absolving Lee for the players we have and blaming MA is disingenuous.

Don't get me wrong, pressure on MA to actually get players over the line.

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2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

Agree to some what. However if LJ hasn’t toughened up by now and got the balls to challenge SL then why is LJ still at the club. The January market is claimed to be “difficult” but they probably always are. I do not think LJ is a yes man but if only know he has startled to grow some balls its probably to late for us this season. In November and December it was lets wait too January voiced by many on OTIB and it is now January the 19th and if any of you are aware that we made a significant signing I must of missed some thing I stand corrected. OK we have just won a few games with a clean sheet but can any of you honestly say you are happy with the recent performances over the last two months and hand on hearts if we do make the play offs we will get promoted. It will be a very interesting end to the season but the bigger picture like Prem football is what we all want, wish for and need.

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Interesting that LJ has spoken out 3 times in the last couple of weeks, clearly saying that the recruitment is all down to Ashton. 
 

I’ve made the point on here many times but people seem keen to not want to believe it. It’s all too easy to berate the manager for all of the signings. 
Most people’s argument against me was that LJ never says anything about the transfer policy, never speaks out about his frustration. 
 

Well, he’s very subtly hinted about it 3 times this last week or so and putting the pressure onto Ashton to deliver. 
 

Perhaps people will start to realise now that it’s Ashton’s responsibility and LJ only plays a small role in the identification, recruitment and ratification of incomings. 
 

 

But previously he has always maintained that he had final day on all transfers, so either M Ashton has gone rogue or Johnson is trying to throw him under the bus to save his own skin. 

And for me it would simply confirm why I think hes had his time, blames his team for his shortcomings, and now is trying to blame somoene else rather than take an ounce of responsibility. 

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2 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

But previously he has always maintained that he had final day on all transfers, so either M Ashton has gone rogue or Johnson is trying to throw him under the bus to save his own skin. 

Hes ran out of players to throw under the bus

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While LJ has been known to throw others under the bus to save himself and seemed more than happy to sign a no doubt contract that set out many details, including his job remit etc, he can only work with what he is given.

Ultimately there is only one man who decides what that is and its not MA.

LJ will not rock the boat to much incase he falls out, chances of signing someone exp and who we need this month nil, chances of a loan after everyone else has finished, fair; and chances of signing/loaning someone who wont actually play much; quite high.

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2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

Always someone else's fault

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6 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

But previously he has always maintained that he had final day on all transfers, so either M Ashton has gone rogue or Johnson is trying to throw him under the bus to save his own skin. 

And for me it would simply confirm why I think hes had his time, blames his team for his shortcomings, and now is trying to blame somoene else rather than take an ounce of responsibility. 

Where the issue might arise is availability. If we get to a point where Mark Ashton can only say, “the only deal I can get for you is......”, what does he do? The choice is he either takes a player that wasn’t his first choice, or he tries to go with what he has already. Either decision is going to get him criticised by the supporters, because we can’t see behind the scenes in that process.

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2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

Intresting because from time to time we've all questioned the club's ambitions... yes the stadium has taken shape and foundations are being layed and people have mentioned we are only 1pt off top 6 BUT paying big money & wages is not in our DNA something that SC challenged and then moved on. So now it looks like Lee has challenged it or covered is arse it will make for an interesting few weeks. Eddie was never coming as I previously posted purely down to what wages we would pay just like bringing DG here few season's back only to waste his time by offering pocket money. We all have to question IF NOT NOW THEN WHEN??? there is no better time to inject the money and buy the quality needed than now in a open division....

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2 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Where the issue might arise is availability. If we get to a point where Mark Ashton can only say, “the only deal I can get for you is......”, what does he do? The choice is he either takes a player that wasn’t his first choice, or he tries to go with what he has already. Either decision is going to get him criticised by the supporters, because we can’t see behind the scenes in that process.

He should do what every other manager had to do and work with what he's got, there isn't a manager on planet earth that gets their first choice player every time, why should Johnson be immune? The man is as per usual doing everything to try and deflect any scrutiny from himself, and he's running out of players to scapegoat so has now turned to his boss. 

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I don’t know what to make of our transfer business. @Leveller said it seems like our squad is more an investment portfolio than a team. Think that sums it up for me too. 
 

Feels like there are too many people involved. Like major people involved. LJ has to sign off on it, MA has to sign off on it, SL has to sign off on it who else? Then we have SL saying his preferred squad size is 22 with 2 for each XI on the pitch. Yet we have established with those out on loan we have over 30 players who you would call squad players. Why is this not being followed? We seem to have the restrictions of what we will pay players but no restrictions on how many? 
 

The squad is a mess. There are far too many players to start. Then there are far too many not good enough. For the money we make on players we just waste it on wages for dross. So for me I can’t blame any one person. Too many different voices and they need to sort it out. 

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7 minutes ago, Allwaysred said:

Intresting because from time to time we've all questioned the club's ambitions... yes the stadium has taken shape and foundations are being layed and people have mentioned we are only 1pt off top 6 BUT paying big money & wages is not in our DNA something that SC challenged and then moved on. So now it looks like Lee has challenged it or covered is arse it will make for an interesting few weeks. Eddie was never coming as I previously posted purely down to what wages we would pay just like bringing DG here few season's back only to waste his time by offering pocket money. We all have to question IF NOT NOW THEN WHEN??? there is no better time to inject the money and buy the quality needed than now in a open division....

We spent big in the summer we broke our transfer record we have players on big wages who cant even get in match day squad dont think you can say SL hasnt spent money he loses £25 mill a year so we can support city?

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Interesting that LJ has spoken out 3 times in the last couple of weeks, clearly saying that the recruitment is all down to Ashton. 
 

I’ve made the point on here many times but people seem keen to not want to believe it. It’s all too easy to berate the manager for all of the signings. 
Most people’s argument against me was that LJ never says anything about the transfer policy, never speaks out about his frustration. 
 

Well, he’s very subtly hinted about it 3 times this last week or so and putting the pressure onto Ashton to deliver. 
 

Perhaps people will start to realise now that it’s Ashton’s responsibility and LJ only plays a small role in the identification, recruitment and ratification of incomings. 
 

 

Don't think there's a chief scout anymore and they're not recruiting one to replace. 

Mark Ashton has more or less overruled it to take a bit more of a hands on approach.

Time to suck it up and make it happen.this window.

This season may be the telling of a few management staff's roles. Otherwise I can see a lot of change in the summer to push things forward even more so.

 

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I didn't read anything into the lack of subs other than that we didn't need them. We weren't playing badly, we were certainly creating chances, no-one on the bench was more likely to stick one away, and there certainly wasn't any hint (that I heard) of the crowd getting restless. And, as @Davefevs says, there was a flow and pattern to the game; I think Pato ran out of steam and bringing on O'Dowda changed that as little as possible. Also, I'm not sure who he'd have taken off earlier; there wasn't anyone having a bad game yesterday. 

On the LJ quote that @Major Isewater began this with, it seems to me that all LJ is saying is what plenty of us on here often say which is that, for all that we're a selling club etc, if we really want to take that final step we have to balance that with either

a) not selling our 3-4 best players at the end of every season and having to rebuild: at some point we have to keep a Webster or a Reid and keep the spine of our team, or the back four, together.

b) not be totally reliant on promising players from lower leagues or unknowns from France, but invest in a proven Championship player even if that means spending big.

The big squad we now have doesn't help with the latter especially, because it limits the cash available. The comments about LJ identifying who we want and MA getting them are interesting. Presumably we identify numerous potential targets, on the basis that we'll only get a small proportion in; if MA actually gets more than expected then that results in a bigger squad than anticipated? Clearly it's not that simple, and there must be a degree of prioritising and discussion, but may explain for example our dearth of no 10s?

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12 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

But previously he has always maintained that he had final day on all transfers, so either M Ashton has gone rogue or Johnson is trying to throw him under the bus to save his own skin. 

And for me it would simply confirm why I think hes had his time, blames his team for his shortcomings, and now is trying to blame somoene else rather than take an ounce of responsibility. 

My understanding is that the recruitment team headed by MA find players that might be suitable. LJ is then informed of said players and LJ will make the final decision - it’s then over to MA to negotiate a deal.

LJ himself is not necessarily involved in recruitment but  knows that January is never a good time to buy/sell players and that even finding suitable players can be difficult. He’s not blaming anyone, he’s simply saying what the more informed posters already know................:cool2:

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2 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

He should do what every other manager had to do and work with what he's got, there isn't a manager on planet earth that gets their first choice player every time, why should Johnson be immune? The man is as per usual doing everything to try and deflect any scrutiny from himself, and he's running out of players to scapegoat so has now turned to his boss. 

So let’s say that’s the situation now. He is the one getting criticised for not having options off the bench up front and using Callum O’Dowda who could fall into that category you are talking about. Like I said, he gets criticised either way.

I wish to hell and back Afobe had stayed injury free and his personal tragedy hadn’t happened, 100% for his own sake. But as a club and a team I am sure we would be having an entirely different conversation right now.

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It’s as though our recruitment strategy is based on a business decision as opposed to a football decision.. buy a player at the right age regardless of position as long as we feel we cannot lose.. if a player comes up trumps a la Massengo then BINGO !!

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Blame, blame, blame, its an obsession with some on here. And interesting that it's the same posters who blame Johnson for everything from the size of the squad to the lack of sheep pies, who also transfer that particular trait to LJ and assume that he's in the blame game too.

I think all he's trying to do is to explain that the process is complicated and never lack and white, and that sometimes there are compromises and balance involved.. 

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5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

So let’s say that’s the situation now. He is the one getting criticised for not having options off the bench up front and using Callum O’Dowda who could fall into that category you are talking about. Like I said, he gets criticised either way.

I wish to hell and back Afobe had stayed injury free and his personal tragedy hadn’t happened, 100% for his own sake. But as a club and a team I am sure we would be having an entirely different conversation right now.

So he didn't want any of the players that he has? He had no say on sending Taylor on loan? A club that has spent the best part of 30 million quid this summer looses a single player that signed on transfer deadline day and everything falls apart and that's fine? 

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

The quote is in quotation marks .

Sorry I should have put a link in but I’m not up to OTIB standards and will probably be replaced on here if we get promoted.

Major out!

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10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

My understanding is that the recruitment team headed by MA find players that might be suitable. LJ is then informed of said players and LJ will make the final decision - it’s then over to MA to negotiate a deal.

LJ himself is not necessarily involved in recruitment but  knows that January is never a good time to buy/sell players and that even finding suitable players can be difficult. He’s not blaming anyone, he’s simply saying what the more informed posters already know................:cool2:

So he has the final decision but is not involved? 

If that was the case then why say that it's difficult to recruit in January, (which we all know it is) and not it depends on the ambition of the club? 

And as for being informed, considering you got  mugged off by the best manager we have had since Dicks not sure you can call yourself informed, can you? 

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3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

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2 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

Disagree that he has recruited badly, I think we have generally recruited well, there have been some that haven't worked out but they have largely been relatively low cost punts on players who could be brilliant or may not make the grade, but the vast majority even if it has not worked have been able to be sold on for a good fee. 

My issue with the recruitment is we have patently recruited to play one style of football and certain systems and then we've binned them off meaning we have a load of players who don't fit. 

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25 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Where the issue might arise is availability. If we get to a point where Mark Ashton can only say, “the only deal I can get for you is......”, what does he do? The choice is he either takes a player that wasn’t his first choice, or he tries to go with what he has already. Either decision is going to get him criticised by the supporters, because we can’t see behind the scenes in that process.

But LJ is a key stakeholder in which players end up in the funnel.

If Toney, L.Taylor, JCH, Grant, were put in the funnel and MA turns around and says all you can have is a player outside the pool / funnel, then LJ should refuse and save City some £s.  Either MA needs calling out, or the players in the pot aren’t realistic.

The players MA tries to work a deal on should be players that go through the process, entering that process at whatever stage and for whatever reason.

As Harry has said, LJ has mentioned recruitment a few times recently.  There appears to be tension between him and MA.  But I do think Lee likes to push a bit of blame away from his door.

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22 minutes ago, Robbored said:

My understanding is that the recruitment team headed by MA find players that might be suitable. LJ is then informed of said players and LJ will make the final decision - it’s then over to MA to negotiate a deal.

LJ himself is not necessarily involved in recruitment but  knows that January is never a good time to buy/sell players and that even finding suitable players can be difficult. He’s not blaming anyone, he’s simply saying what the more informed posters already know................:cool2:

No, that’s not correct.  Lee has input into finding players too, either by adding players he himself likes, but also laying down the criteria of any search too.  The pool of players that get progressed into analysis, scouting, being watched by LJ, DH, JM, is driven from multiple sources, not just a database search by the analysts.

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8 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

I would to a large extent, because he’s made some good and bad recruits.  But I’d want to start with a trimmer squad in the first place and link accountability to him.  MA can run the operations of the Recruitment team, and can do the deal, but give Lee total responsibility for any player recruited....remove any ambiguity.  

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