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Major Isewater

LJ challenging SL ?

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It’s as though our recruitment strategy is based on a business decision as opposed to a football decision.. buy a player at the right age regardless of position as long as we feel we cannot lose.. if a player comes up trumps a la Massengo then BINGO !!

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Blame, blame, blame, its an obsession with some on here. And interesting that it's the same posters who blame Johnson for everything from the size of the squad to the lack of sheep pies, who also transfer that particular trait to LJ and assume that he's in the blame game too.

I think all he's trying to do is to explain that the process is complicated and never lack and white, and that sometimes there are compromises and balance involved.. 

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5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

So let’s say that’s the situation now. He is the one getting criticised for not having options off the bench up front and using Callum O’Dowda who could fall into that category you are talking about. Like I said, he gets criticised either way.

I wish to hell and back Afobe had stayed injury free and his personal tragedy hadn’t happened, 100% for his own sake. But as a club and a team I am sure we would be having an entirely different conversation right now.

So he didn't want any of the players that he has? He had no say on sending Taylor on loan? A club that has spent the best part of 30 million quid this summer looses a single player that signed on transfer deadline day and everything falls apart and that's fine? 

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

The quote is in quotation marks .

Sorry I should have put a link in but I’m not up to OTIB standards and will probably be replaced on here if we get promoted.

Major out!

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10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

My understanding is that the recruitment team headed by MA find players that might be suitable. LJ is then informed of said players and LJ will make the final decision - it’s then over to MA to negotiate a deal.

LJ himself is not necessarily involved in recruitment but  knows that January is never a good time to buy/sell players and that even finding suitable players can be difficult. He’s not blaming anyone, he’s simply saying what the more informed posters already know................:cool2:

So he has the final decision but is not involved? 

If that was the case then why say that it's difficult to recruit in January, (which we all know it is) and not it depends on the ambition of the club? 

And as for being informed, considering you got  mugged off by the best manager we have had since Dicks not sure you can call yourself informed, can you? 

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3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

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2 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

Disagree that he has recruited badly, I think we have generally recruited well, there have been some that haven't worked out but they have largely been relatively low cost punts on players who could be brilliant or may not make the grade, but the vast majority even if it has not worked have been able to be sold on for a good fee. 

My issue with the recruitment is we have patently recruited to play one style of football and certain systems and then we've binned them off meaning we have a load of players who don't fit. 

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25 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Where the issue might arise is availability. If we get to a point where Mark Ashton can only say, “the only deal I can get for you is......”, what does he do? The choice is he either takes a player that wasn’t his first choice, or he tries to go with what he has already. Either decision is going to get him criticised by the supporters, because we can’t see behind the scenes in that process.

But LJ is a key stakeholder in which players end up in the funnel.

If Toney, L.Taylor, JCH, Grant, were put in the funnel and MA turns around and says all you can have is a player outside the pool / funnel, then LJ should refuse and save City some £s.  Either MA needs calling out, or the players in the pot aren’t realistic.

The players MA tries to work a deal on should be players that go through the process, entering that process at whatever stage and for whatever reason.

As Harry has said, LJ has mentioned recruitment a few times recently.  There appears to be tension between him and MA.  But I do think Lee likes to push a bit of blame away from his door.

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22 minutes ago, Robbored said:

My understanding is that the recruitment team headed by MA find players that might be suitable. LJ is then informed of said players and LJ will make the final decision - it’s then over to MA to negotiate a deal.

LJ himself is not necessarily involved in recruitment but  knows that January is never a good time to buy/sell players and that even finding suitable players can be difficult. He’s not blaming anyone, he’s simply saying what the more informed posters already know................:cool2:

No, that’s not correct.  Lee has input into finding players too, either by adding players he himself likes, but also laying down the criteria of any search too.  The pool of players that get progressed into analysis, scouting, being watched by LJ, DH, JM, is driven from multiple sources, not just a database search by the analysts.

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8 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

I would to a large extent, because he’s made some good and bad recruits.  But I’d want to start with a trimmer squad in the first place and link accountability to him.  MA can run the operations of the Recruitment team, and can do the deal, but give Lee total responsibility for any player recruited....remove any ambiguity.  

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1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

So were we in for Brewster or did the Ryan Kent episode scupper our chances of getting a loan from Liverpool?

It’s all gone very quiet from the club about bringing anyone in up front, only Rodri leaving. That could be good news that Afobe might be back sooner than originally thought. But “limited options” up front is a valid gripe from LJ, with only Semenyo on the bench, who has shown little evidence that he can play at this level.

We were never in for Brewster because he was always going to Swansea. It nearly happened in the summer but Liverpool wanted him to stay put for the first half of the season.

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12 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would you trust him with anymore money considering some of the crap hes brought in.

You are being a little on unfair on our recruiters , no club can get it right every time as players are human beings and sometimes are happier at one club than another.
 

We have had some fantastic signings. 

 I would condone new signings on the basis of , potentially, better quality to help a promotion push but I would make it perfectly clear that unless the top six is achieved this season then things need to change in the summer.

A clear out of playing and coaching staff would be the result of failure for me .

 

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15 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

So he has the final decision but is not involved? 

If that was the case then why say that it's difficult to recruit in January, (which we all know it is) and not it depends on the ambition of the club? 

Correct - LJ makes the final decision.

An apology - you need a used van for your business but you’re too busy to search yourself so you send out some of your most experienced and trusted employees to find what your  business needs. However.....the market is awkward and expensive and your employees are finding it tough find what your looking for........

Eventually they find something that might be suitable but you as the main man will have the final say.......

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1 hour ago, Kibs said:

Listen to the 10 minute press conference

I'm going on what he said after the match yesterday to the audience he knew would be sitting in their cars waiting to hear from him...I thought he was unguarded and honest. And what he said suggested to me something that I've discussed with others way from here, that we are signing players like Adelakun and Szmodics, who play pre-season but get no where near the first team, simply as an investment. Whilst failing to land players who will make an impact in the first team.

Now, I'm far from LJ's greatest fan, and can't understand why a player like Palmer, with all his talent, can't be better managed, but I thought yesterday that LJ was revealing cracks in the corporate wall.

I will listen to the press conference as well though.

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3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In today’s Post 

‘ 'Depends what your ambition is' - Lee Johnson outlines Bristol City's position in the transfer window ‘

Clearly spelling out to SL that we will not get promoted without spending the necessary.

Added a little swipe at M. Ashton before explaining how difficult the January market is.

For all those calling LJ a ‘ Yes man ‘ , Shut up . 

I believe he’s toughening up as he réalisés that his job is on the line.

I believe it will be a very interesting end to this season . 

Maybe LJ should be challenging himself to get HIS players to get the basics of football right. Let's start with passing. 

Or is that too ambitious LJ? 

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, that’s not correct.  Lee has input into finding players too, either by adding players he himself likes, but also laying down the criteria of any search too.  The pool of players that get progressed into analysis, scouting, being watched by LJ, DH, JM, is driven from multiple sources, not just a database search by the analysts.

I never mentioned databases Dave........The point I’m making is that LJ will have the final say on a player but that player won’t necessarily be one that LJ identified himself - although he, like his assistants and MA know what type they’re looking for. They work as a team with LJ being the overseer.

As already mentioned. - the winter window is not the best time to do deals. Players are more expensive both in and out and every other selling club will know that City are in need of a striker or two......and getting deals over the line is often very difficult for obvious reasons.

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I think it's fair to say the January window is a nightmare, and as LJ points out in his interview, so many different circumstances effect a loan or transfer.

LJ and his team obviously discuss the type of player they want. They will have a continuous database of players in different positions that they would like...and a pecking order as to their ability and affordability. That will continuously change, down to injuries, other signings, other interest, contract, etc at the targeted players Club.

There will obviously be a butting of heads between LJ and MA. Both are judged on their results.

LJ on results...MA on finalizing a target and keeping us financially viable.

LJ may want a certain player...but MA says 'we can't afford him, but how about someone further down the pecking order?'

It's a constant juggle of finding a player that will add quality, but also within our budget. Constantly trying ways to find players, find money, make money, free up money etc. Then you have to convince players to come here...and to the contract and duration you want. The player and Agent will be battling to get as much as possible and for as long as possible. Then take into consideration the FFP rules...it's a complete nightmare.

And even if you get your player, there is no guarantee they will work out or get injured. Even silly things like Nagy implied recently about getting his head around a new City and the crap weather and how that can effect mindset.

We aren't dealing with commodities, but with human beings and emotions, that all have the same problems with work and home as we do. 

LJ is right imo, we he says we need the squad Quality of Fulham. We've seen how the long term injuries to Kalas, DaSilva and Afobe have really hit us. Without those injuries, imo we would be further up the table. We have the numbers, but not the quality to replace those players that will give the extra needed.

The more you think about it and look into it, the harder you realise it is to recruit within the confines SL and FFP put down.

Then you have two people trying to work together in LJ and MA, trying to find a happy medium between the two main aspects of their jobs. That's the hard part imo.

So many different conundrums.

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6 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think it's fair to say the January window is a nightmare, and as LJ points out in his interview, so many different circumstances effect a loan or transfer.

LJ and his team obviously discuss the type of player they want. They will have a continuous database of players in different positions that they would like...and a pecking order as to their ability and affordability. That will continuously change, down to injuries, other signings, other interest, contract, etc at the targeted players Club.

There will obviously be a butting of heads between LJ and MA. Both are judged on their results.

LJ on results...MA on finalizing a target and keeping us financially viable.

LJ may want a certain player...but MA says 'we can't afford him, but how about someone further down the pecking order?'

It's a constant juggle of finding a player that will add quality, but also within our budget. Constantly trying ways to find players, find money, make money, free up money etc. Then you have to convince players to come here...and to the contract and duration you want. The player and Agent will be battling to get as much as possible and for as long as possible. Then take into consideration the FFP rules...it's a complete nightmare.

And even if you get your player, there is no guarantee they will work out or get injured. Even silly things like Nagy implied recently about getting his head around a new City and the crap weather and how that can effect mindset.

We aren't dealing with commodities, but with human beings and emotions, that all have the same problems with work and home as we do. 

LJ is right imo, we he says we need the squad Quality of Fulham. We've seen how the long term injuries to Kalas, DaSilva and Afobe have really hit us. Without those injuries, imo we would be further up the table. We have the numbers, but not the quality to replace those players that will give the extra needed.

The more you think about it and look into it, the harder you realise it is to recruit within the confines SL and FFP put down.

Then you have two people trying to work together in LJ and MA, trying to find a happy medium between the two main aspects of their jobs. That's the hard part imo.

So many different conundrums.

Indeed and I agree, and it's also why I would rather we signed nobody in this window than just started buying players for the sake of it. It has to be the right player. 

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3 hours ago, Harry said:

Interesting that LJ has spoken out 3 times in the last couple of weeks, clearly saying that the recruitment is all down to Ashton. 
 

I’ve made the point on here many times but people seem keen to not want to believe it. It’s all too easy to berate the manager for all of the signings. 
Most people’s argument against me was that LJ never says anything about the transfer policy, never speaks out about his frustration. 
 

Well, he’s very subtly hinted about it 3 times this last week or so and putting the pressure onto Ashton to deliver. 
 

Perhaps people will start to realise now that it’s Ashton’s responsibility and LJ only plays a small role in the identification, recruitment and ratification of incomings. 
 

 

Harry see my. Comments below and Kibs comment

3 hours ago, La Plage said:

If funny how he quotes “quality over quantity” yet he’s signed nearly 60 players, still doesn’t know his best starting eleven, formation or how his substitutions will influence a game when a plan B is needed.

Great examples are Pato, rejected on the last day of the August transfer window, failed to get on at Derby then gets thrust back in the team as we have no better options!! Yet 3 who were signed in August, we had 2 on the bench yesterday and a 3rd been excluded again altogether, when Johnson was only saying 2 weeks ago what a key member of the squad he was? Baffling to say the least.

He needs to be very careful where he points his finger next, if he has finished chucking “his” players under the bus post game.

In fairness I think LJ was referring to quality over quantity in this window LP

Though your general point is spot on IMHO

2 hours ago, Kibs said:

Actually, if you listen to the 10 minute press conference, he doesn’t say that at all. 

4mins 50 onwards in the press conference LJ says, and I quote - “The talent ID is down to me”

He goes on to say the negotiations etc are down to MA. 

I’m not sure why you are so desperate to relinquish any responsibility from LJ for the signings we have made?

Listen to the 10 minute press conference

I enjoy reading your posts and in fairness you always expand on your opinions

Some I agree with , some I don’t , but I have to say reading your recent posts about this subject they appear to be really personally led , ........with a bit of a personal beef ?

if you are in anyway telling the truth then SL, MA, have all repeatedly lied to the fanbase which , if revealed would in itself be catastrophic for all.

I have heard many interviews and questions of all about the recruitment process and discussed recruitment directly with LJ in the aftermath of Forums etc

Lee and MA have a budget to work within

Initially players are identified by numerous methods - Lee himself , one of the coaches , an agent , a mate in football, data crunching..etc etc.   ..lots of ways 

Those players or the sensible suggestions at least , are researched , analysed and there are regular recruitment meetings throughout the season to discuss possible targets for the following window(s) and a funnelling process that @Davefevs has described so when Lee decides he wants a new , central midfielder for example there will be a up to date target list of a number of agreed suitable targets. Many will be have been ruled out by that stage ,whether through expected cost , ability , ‘DNA’ etc.....

Lee will identify his preferences and MAs task is then to get that target within the budget , with constant dialogue between MA / LJ and SL on progress and scenarios

’We Cant get Player A because of ..... are you still happy with Player B Lee ?’ (Spinning plates)

There’s a stage where MA has negotiated a potential deal for Player A/B/C and LJ is in agreement / approves - Lee has repeatedly said , he has the final say and the Club do not sign players without his approval 

The Final proposal is then put before SL for final approval but MA has said on a number of occasions SL has never said No

That may sound suspicious and unlikely to some but for me it’s quite simple - MA knows the budget and numbers and , going to a Financial expert , would look a bufoon (And probably a candidate for swif dismissal) to go to SL and say We would like to sign Player X for £40 million and on £80k a week 

He will only be approaching SL with a proposed deal that fits within budget or at most and bravest , pushes it slightly

In the same way Lee knows the budget and by the same token there’s little point in him wanting , or wasting time looking at , Player X who he knows will cost that sort of money.

I’d personally recommend reading each of @Davefevs points / posts on the subject - nails it IMHO

LJ should, does ,  and rightly so have a massive say in recruitment , and amongst other subjects, should be judged on it 

I say , slightly tongue in cheek , hope Mrs Johnson does the household budget ..........as if left to Lee they’d have six hoovers , four microwaves, a couple of which are crap and he’s put in the loft , a spare three piece suite, a couple of shiny cars on the drive, not enough money left to pay the kids school fees, but now Lees eyeing up another new car....


* On an associated note - crap interviewing as any decent reporter would jump on Lees comments and ask deeper and more direct questions

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I never mentioned databases Dave........The point I’m making is that LJ will have the final say on a player but that player won’t necessarily be one that LJ identified himself

absolutely correct RR.

- although he, like his assistants and MA know what type they’re looking for. They work as a team with LJ being the overseer.

but LJ also plays a dual role as an “inputter” too.  That was the point I was trying to make.  If however, and maybe @Harry can clarify (as I wasn’t trying to be dismissive in my earlier post) whether any of LJ’s inputs ever come out the funnel?  A post a couple of weeks ago suggested MA’s funnel being narrowed down to MA’s agenda.  As I’ve said before if that genuinely is the case, LJ should challenge SL that MA is undermining him....and I’d sympathise with LJ, but I’d also ask him to proverbially “grow some” too.  His job is hard enough, the most important at the club imho, and everyone really needs to work to allowing him to get the best players they can, and then LJ to get the best out of them on the pitch.

As already mentioned. - the winter window is not the best time to do deals. Players are more expensive both in and out and every other selling club will know that City are in need of a striker or two......and getting deals over the line is often very difficult for obvious reasons.

indeed it is.

 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

If however, and maybe @Harry can clarify (as I wasn’t trying to be dismissive in my earlier post) whether any of LJ’s inputs ever come out the funnel?

Dave , immediately straight off top my head

Elliasson

And you can’t tell me Marley Watkins wasn’t !

Theres numerous but I cannot see a single ounce of argument against those two just as mere examples 

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7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Harry see below and Kibs comment

I enjoy reading your posts and in fairness you always expand on your opinions

Some I agree with , some I don’t , but I have to say reading your recent posts about this subject they appear to be really personally led , ........with a bit of a personal beef ?

if you are in anyway telling the truth then SL, MA, have all repeatedly lied to the fanbase which , if revealed would in itself be catastrophic for all.

I have heard many interviews and questions of all about the recruitment process and discussed recruitment directly with LJ in the aftermath of Forums etc

Lee and MA have a budget to work within

Initially players are identified by numerous methods - Lee himself , one of the coaches , an agent , a mate in football, data crunching..etc etc.   ..lots of ways 

Those players or the sensible suggestions at least , are researched , analysed and there are regular recruitment meetings throughout the season to discuss possible targets for the following window(s) and a funnelling process that @Davefevs has described so when Lee decides he wants a new , central midfielder for example there will be a up to date target list of a number of agreed suitable targets. Many will be have been ruled out by that stage ,whether through expected cost , ability , ‘DNA’ etc.....

Lee will identify his preferences and MAs task is then to get that target within the budget , with constant dialogue between MA / LJ and SL on progress and scenarios

’We Cant get Player A because of ..... are you still happy with Player B Lee ?’ (Spinning plates)

There’s a stage where MA has negotiated a potential deal for Player A/B/C and LJ is in agreement / approves - Lee has repeatedly said , he has the final say and the Club do not sign players without his approval 

The Final proposal is then put before SL for final approval but MA has said on a number of occasions SL has never said No

That may sound suspicious and unlikely to some but for me it’s quite simple - MA knows the budget and numbers and , going to a Financial expert , would look a bufoon (And probably a candidate for swif dismissal) to go to SL and say We would like to sign Player X for £40 million and on £80k a week 

He will only be approaching SL with a proposed deal that fits within budget or at most and bravest , pushes it slightly

In the same way Lee knows the budget and by the same token there’s little point in him wanting , or wasting time looking at , Player X who he knows will cost that sort of money.

I’d personally recommend reading each of @Davefevs points / posts on the subject - nails it IMHO

LJ should, does ,  and rightly so have a massive say in recruitment , and amongst other subjects, should be judged on it 

I say , slightly tongue in cheek , hope Mrs Johnson does the household budget ..........as if left to Lee they’d have six hoovers , four microwaves, a couple of which are crap and he’s put in the loft , a spare three piece suite, a couple of shiny cars on the drive, not enough money left to pay the kids school fees, but now Lees eyeing up another new car....

 

Great post BBSB.

It is why I’d change accountabilities.  There’s part of me that doesn't like the reporting line of LJ into MA.  MA is a football administrator and operations manager.  He’s not skilled in player identification, apart from his skills in running a team that operationally undertake the player identification tasks.  Lee doesn’t have the time to do that aspect.  He could do with a football man (someone he trusts implicitly) to work with the recruitment team to be his eyes and ears, but provide football-based feedback to him and them.

Within that LJ needs to understand the numbers, the consequences of the cost of “quality” versus “clubs in the bag”, and there is a balance to be found.

Its not as black and white as I paint, but if LJ identifies the player, MA agrees he’s achievable, you then judge MA on his ability to get the deal over the line.  He becomes a salesman based on sales, or recruits in this case.  If MA constantly poo-poohs LJ’s targets as unachievable then there are big problems.

I think at this point we also need to say MA’s role is selling players is a big factor in allowing Lee to get in the likes of Kalas, Afobe etc.

 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Great post BBSB.

It is why I’d change accountabilities.  There’s part of me that doesn't like the reporting line of LJ into MA.  MA is a football administrator and operations manager.  He’s not skilled in player identification, apart from his skills in running a team that operationally undertake the player identification tasks.  Lee doesn’t have the time to do that aspect.  He could do with a football man (someone he trusts implicitly) to work with the recruitment team to be his eyes and ears, but provide football-based feedback to him and them.

Within that LJ needs to understand the numbers, the consequences of the cost of “quality” versus “clubs in the bag”, and there is a balance to be found.

Its not as black and white as I paint, but if LJ identifies the player, MA agrees he’s achievable, you then judge MA on his ability to get the deal over the line.  He becomes a salesman based on sales, or recruits in this case.  If MA constantly poo-poohs LJ’s targets as unachievable then there are big problems.

I think at this point we also need to say MA’s role is selling players is a big factor in allowing Lee to get in the likes of Kalas, Afobe etc.

 

I was just about the  same, so good post @BobBobSuperBob.

I think the dilemma we face is that MA and LJ are trying to square a circle, in that they are trying to build a team strong enough to challenge at the top end of the table, while at the same time addressing to stark realities of financial life under ffp. That means that while we are running losses at circa £20m pa, we need for sell players just to balance the books and avoid ffp penalties. This means that we are trying to achieve the difficult balance of bringing in players with ability and potential to benefit our first team, but who will also have potential to realise a profit if they want to move  ( or we need to sell!) in future.

I think this might be one of the reasons why, for example, LJ seems to have a lot of midfielders but struggles to determine the best formation and who to play there. I can well imagine that discussions between MA and LJ are "interesting" as from time to time they will each have different priorities to address and can see that this priorities could well be in conflict with each other.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Spud55 said:

So he didn't want any of the players that he has? He had no say on sending Taylor on loan? A club that has spent the best part of 30 million quid this summer looses a single player that signed on transfer deadline day and everything falls apart and that's fine? 

Everything has fallen apart? I would say we are looking for a piece or 2 in a puzzle that will keep us in the play offs. If a point outside the playoffs is falling apart, he’s never going to meet your expectations. We have spent years trying to be a consistent side at this level season on season, and having got there, we’re not happy.

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I’d like to know how significant “DNA” is in the recruitment process in identifying players. Just thinking about how recruitment agencies work, and how their criteria can eliminate perfectly good (and possibly a slightly more individual character) in the initial stages. Is the criteria in that regard too strict, and therefore BCFC are missing out on players who don’t “fit” but would be right for the team?

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But LJ is a key stakeholder in which players end up in the funnel.

If Toney, L.Taylor, JCH, Grant, were put in the funnel and MA turns around and says all you can have is a player outside the pool / funnel, then LJ should refuse and save City some £s.  Either MA needs calling out, or the players in the pot aren’t realistic.

The players MA tries to work a deal on should be players that go through the process, entering that process at whatever stage and for whatever reason.

As Harry has said, LJ has mentioned recruitment a few times recently.  There appears to be tension between him and MA.  But I do think Lee likes to push a bit of blame away from his door.

Great. Maybe I agree. But there are a lot of people on here who want him to sign a player, any player! If he doesn’t then he is criticised for inertia or failing to recognise the problem. He will be criticised either way Dave, you know that.That’s my point.

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5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Everything has fallen apart? I would say we are looking for a piece or 2 in a puzzle that will keep us in the play offs. If a point outside the playoffs is falling apart, he’s never going to meet your expectations. We have spent years trying to be a consistent side at this level season on season, and having got there, we’re not happy.

Well apparently if Afobe doesn't get injured we are having a completely different conversation now, which implies we would be doing considerably better than we are so I stand by the fact that it must have evidently fallen apart if we would be doing so much better with a single player. 

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33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It is why I’d change accountabilities.  There’s part of me that doesn't like the reporting line of LJ into MA.  MA is a football administrator and operations manager.  He’s not skilled in player identification, apart from his skills in running a team that operationally undertake the player identification tasks.  Lee doesn’t have the time to do that aspect.  He could do with a football man (someone he trusts implicitly) to work with the recruitment team to be his eyes and ears, but provide football-based feedback to him and them.

Within that LJ needs to understand the numbers, the consequences of the cost of “quality” versus “clubs in the bag”, and there is a balance to be found.

Its not as black and white as I paint, but if LJ identifies the player, MA agrees he’s achievable, you then judge MA on his ability to get the deal over the line.  He becomes a salesman based on sales, or recruits in this case.  If MA constantly poo-poohs LJ’s targets as unachievable then there are big problems.

I think at this point we also need to say MA’s role is selling players is a big factor in allowing Lee to get in the likes of Kalas, Afobe etc.

 

Dave - none of us know what the working relationship between MA and LJ is actually like but according to LJ they work closely together and speak everyday......and it’s essential that they are compatible in the jobs they do.

Reading on here that there’s difficulties in their working relationship is, to me absolute phantasy  and those that post it have a not so hidden agenda.

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Great post BBSB.

It is why I’d change accountabilities.  There’s part of me that doesn't like the reporting line of LJ into MA.  MA is a football administrator and operations manager.  He’s not skilled in player identification, apart from his skills in running a team that operationally undertake the player identification tasks.  Lee doesn’t have the time to do that aspect.  He could do with a football man (someone he trusts implicitly) to work with the recruitment team to be his eyes and ears, but provide football-based feedback to him and them.

Within that LJ needs to understand the numbers, the consequences of the cost of “quality” versus “clubs in the bag”, and there is a balance to be found.

Its not as black and white as I paint, but if LJ identifies the player, MA agrees he’s achievable, you then judge MA on his ability to get the deal over the line.  He becomes a salesman based on sales, or recruits in this case.  If MA constantly poo-poohs LJ’s targets as unachievable then there are big problems.

I think at this point we also need to say MA’s role is selling players is a big factor in allowing Lee to get in the likes of Kalas, Afobe etc.

 

MA has always said his role is not to personally  identify talent but run a team that identifies talent / recruitment

How far if at all he strays from that , only a very select group would know

Other than Harry’s and the odd belief or opinion from the off person over last couple of years there is actually zero evidence as far as I can see to substantiate any notable interference by MA

Im sure there are some difficult conversations between MA and LJ during windows 

Hypothetical example

Lee ‘I want Nagy’

MA ‘But we’ve already spent on Massengo’

Lee ‘But Nagy is a key for me’

MA ‘Doable Lee but would mean us accepting that Cardiff bid for Marlon to balance the numbers’

Lee ‘But I can trust Marlon , I like him’

MA ‘Nagy or Marlon,  Lee........’

But that’s reality for any manager / head coach

I have to be honest on their respective roles and responsibilities in the recruitment process , on the face of it , MA appears to have fulfilled his role well (Fees etc)  ......Lee ? 

I also wonder how Lee reacts and ahis acceptance , when players won’t come here because of the way we play or other footballing reasons ,maybe even himself , because there will be some 

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4 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I was just about the  same, so good post @BobBobSuperBob.

I think the dilemma we face is that MA and LJ are trying to square a circle, in that they are trying to build a team strong enough to challenge at the top end of the table, while at the same time addressing to stark realities of financial life under ffp. That means that while we are running losses at circa £20m pa, we need for sell players just to balance the books and avoid ffp penalties. This means that we are trying to achieve the difficult balance of bringing in players with ability and potential to benefit our first team, but who will also have potential to realise a profit if they want to move  ( or we need to sell!) in future.

I think this might be one of the reasons why, for example, LJ seems to have a lot of midfielders but struggles to determine the best formation and who to play there. I can well imagine that discussions between MA and LJ are "interesting" as from time to time they will each have different priorities to address and can see that this priorities could well be in conflict with each other.

 

 

 

Sensible post DC.

Those are exactly the constraints.

I think being on a bad run (which we are now coming out of - I hope) at the start of the window has put pressure on, and things get said under pressure.

LJ under pressure to get results, MA under pressure to get players in.  Lee is at the front of the club, and has to face up to the media twice a week (at least).  Yesterday’s post-match presser was a bit more controlled, less pressured, but he was trying to get a point across undoubtedly.

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2 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Well apparently if Afobe doesn't get injured we are having a completely different conversation now, which implies we would be doing considerably better than we are so I stand by the fact that it must have evidently fallen apart if we would be doing so much better with a single player. 

Oh come on, he was looking the key cog in the machine. Look at Tottenham without Harry Kane as an example, you know it can be that way, 20 goals from Afobe at this point we would not be having this conversation would we?

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2 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

Yes, the signing of palmer after smodzics signed bore that out.. thats 4.5 million for people not actually even in the squad, competing with odowda who got a new contract to maintain his transfer value and pato who was already on the books too.

And that’s key for me. Do you see Brentford leaving £4m of talent sat in the stands doing nothing on a Saturday? The questions for me are can Bristol City afford to do that and should we be doing that?

Are Brentford a considerably more attractive football team to watch than us (and higher in the league too) on lower crowds and therefore a tougher FFP restriction? You bet they are. They use a version of money ball to acquire talent but it’s a version that seems to give them more first team ready players than our recruiting system.

Brentford are not stockpiling bang average players with a modicum of potential in the hope that we get £36m for them three years down the line in anything like the ratio that we do. As someone else said the club is being run at the very top as an investment house. You can’t pin that on LJ.

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5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Great. Maybe I agree. But there are a lot of people on here who want him to sign a player, any player! If he doesn’t then he is criticised for inertia or failing to recognise the problem. He will be criticised either way Dave, you know that.That’s my point.

Yes, absolutely.  Don’t get me wrong I think we need a forward, I actually think we need a big, strong, athletic CM more, but if we didn’t bring anyone in (as long as we don’t lose anyone) I’d accept it is what it is....and would actually be better for us in the summer.

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5 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I’d like to know how significant “DNA” is in the recruitment process in identifying players. Just thinking about how recruitment agencies work, and how their criteria can eliminate perfectly good (and possibly a slightly more individual character) in the initial stages. Is the criteria in that regard too strict, and therefore BCFC are missing out on players who don’t “fit” but would be right for the team?

Interesting thought provoking post Max 

My personal view is I like that we appear to recruit decent human beings but I also think that means we miss out on some aspects of character and players that would help further progress , but are a gamble at the same time 

We want players to be decent human beings in a professional ruthless sport where winners  are streetwise, nasty at times , ruthless and often come with an edge - on the pitch at least

Diffiicult balance to strike 

A squad of players who are great off the pitch but a bit nasty and ruthless on it not easy to assemble !

 

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4 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I’d like to know how significant “DNA” is in the recruitment process in identifying players. Just thinking about how recruitment agencies work, and how their criteria can eliminate perfectly good (and possibly a slightly more individual character) in the initial stages. Is the criteria in that regard too strict, and therefore BCFC are missing out on players who don’t “fit” but would be right for the team?

Unless it's changed in recent times, it's still of massive importance.

The Club look into the background of players, social life, family life etc.

We do turn down players if they don't fit our wants as a hard working professional and seen as a potential bad influence or problem outside football.

Adam Griffin and the rest of the scouting team I'm told, still have to find these details as much as possible, as well as the players footballing credentials. First team and Academy.

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12 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I’d like to know how significant “DNA” is in the recruitment process in identifying players. Just thinking about how recruitment agencies work, and how their criteria can eliminate perfectly good (and possibly a slightly more individual character) in the initial stages. Is the criteria in that regard too strict, and therefore BCFC are missing out on players who don’t “fit” but would be right for the team?

DNA didn’t stop us signing Lee Tomlin when the whole world knew he was an accident waiting to happen (as it happens he appears to be in a better place right now).

But you might be right, there may be players who failed some sort of “test” and as a result we have not got the talent in that the first team needed.

Leads to the question “do footballers have to be nice, be respectable or win football matches?”.

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Ultimately LJ can’t be expected to get promotion with one out-and-out striker who is not consistently a natural finisher; and who would be probably third choice for any team serious about getting out of the championship. Afobe and Nketiah aren’t going to be that player this season for different reasons - so if the ambition is to get promoted, it’s reasonable to try and land a striker this transfer window. Regardless of LJ’s flaws elsewhere, the need for a striker has been obvious since Reid left (a player LJ turned into a 20-goal-a-season player) - he’s not been well served by the hierarchy in this area. 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, absolutely.  Don’t get me wrong I think we need a forward, I actually think we need a big, strong, athletic CM more, but if we didn’t bring anyone in (as long as we don’t lose anyone) I’d accept it is what it is....and would actually be better for us in the summer.

Well that’s two of us, it feels like we would be in the minority though. If this happens we will be wading through the lack of ambition type posts, especially if we fall off the pace.

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2 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Oh come on, he was looking the key cog in the machine. Look at Tottenham without Harry Kane as an example, you know it can be that way, 20 goals from Afobe at this point we would not be having this conversation would we?

He wouldn't have scored 20 goals by this point, as that would put him on course to score 40 odd bloody goals. And he was looking good, but we have hapily ****** it all up with better than Afobe, we had Bobby Reid who scored more in a season than afobe ever has at this level, and we still went to pieces. 

So I see no evidence to suggest that Afobe on his own stops the usual problems once we have a full squad and the system and personnel roulette starts in Ernest. 

 

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1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

Well that’s two of us, it feels like we would be in the minority though. If this happens we will be wading through the lack of ambition type posts, especially if we fall off the pace.

Who is realistically available is the first question? My only gripe is that we have clearly wasted too much time in TWO windows on some total waste of space who “plays” for Arsenal.

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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Who is realistically available is the first question? My only gripe is that we have clearly wasted too much time in TWO windows on some total waste of space who “plays” for Arsenal.

Have we? I don’t know how much effort we have put into him compared to other targets, I know a lot of effort has gone into Otiber’s convincing themselves we have.

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4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Have we? I don’t know how much effort we have put into him compared to other targets, I know a lot of effort has gone into Otiber’s convincing themselves we have.

Yes, we have.

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1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

Have we? I don’t know how much effort we have put into him compared to other targets, I know a lot of effort has gone into Otiber’s convincing themselves we have.

Not to mention the Press ‘ Happy Nketiah day ? ‘ thank you Gregor McGregor , or the various betting companies who had us down as , not surprisingly , favourites to sign the lad after we narrowly missed out in the last summer window.

I am sure we are not solely looking at one player but by Bob it is complicated these days to sign anyone.

 

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4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Have we? I don’t know how much effort we have put into him compared to other targets, I know a lot of effort has gone into Otiber’s convincing themselves we have.

We will as always have a list of targets that we will have been working on, the idea that we were only talking to Arsenal and Nketia is strange to say the least as its been shown not to be the case as when he fell through in the summer we quickly moved along to other targets and ended up with Afobe. 

 

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19 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting thought provoking post Max 

My personal view is I like that we appear to recruit decent human beings but I also think that means we miss out on some aspects of character and players that would help further progress , but are a gamble at the same time 

We want players to be decent human beings in a professional ruthless sport where winners  are streetwise, nasty at times , ruthless and often come with an edge - on the pitch at least

Diffiicult balance to strike 

A squad of players who are great off the pitch but a bit nasty and ruthless on it not easy to assemble !

 

It is for all the OTIB experts posting from behind their keyboards Bob!  :)

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8 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

He wouldn't have scored 20 goals by this point, as that would put him on course to score 40 odd bloody goals. And he was looking good, but we have hapily ****** it all up with better than Afobe, we had Bobby Reid who scored more in a season than afobe ever has at this level, and we still went to pieces. 

So I see no evidence to suggest that Afobe on his own stops the usual problems once we have a full squad and the system and personnel roulette starts in Ernest. 

 

He had scored 3 in 5, let’s say 15 or 16 in 28 league games that still could have made a huge difference, and everyone pointed out, his style of play suited the passing style more, so we were looking more attractive. 
If that was the case, the “roulette” as you call it may not have been as damaging. Certainly when we were doing well up to Xmas two seasons ago, no one cared about the rotation, until we started slipping.

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5 minutes ago, spudski said:

Unless it's changed in recent times, it's still of massive importance.

The Club look into the of players, social life, family life etc.

We do turn down players if they don't fit our wants as a hard working professional and seen as a potential bad influence or problem outside football.

Adam Griffin and the rest of the scouting team I'm told, still have to find these details as much as possible, as well as the players footballing credentials. First team and Academy.

I wonder what they consider as being respectable? A bit like your dad pre judging your prospective partner...can base their decision on outward appearance, social status etc. SL allegedly removing Luke Ayling because of Cheltenham!
 

A character doesn’t necessarily mean bad (like Tomlin) but constantly rejecting a more individual character, or a more left field type of signing, could mean that you end up with exactly the same kind of person. “A lack of leaders...etc”

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9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Yes, we have.

Oh, thanks Mark. 😉

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23 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting thought provoking post Max 

My personal view is I like that we appear to recruit decent human beings but I also think that means we miss out on some aspects of character and players that would help further progress , but are a gamble at the same time 

We want players to be decent human beings in a professional ruthless sport where winners  are streetwise, nasty at times , ruthless and often come with an edge - on the pitch at least

Diffiicult balance to strike 

A squad of players who are great off the pitch but a bit nasty and ruthless on it not easy to assemble !

 

Why is it? Isn’t it part of a sportsperson’s DNA to be ruthless and have that win at all costs attitude? Or is it down to the coach to motivate and instil it into the minds of the players? Mental toughness has been mentioned over the years, has it been coached out of players (especially those who come through an academy) ?

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I read the LJ article and to be honest I was ok with what he said BUT his last comment “I would be happy with my squad if you can guarantee me no more injuries” was slightly concerning.

I thought he was adamant (as I think 90% of fans are) that whatever happens we must bring in a striker.

I fear we won’t and at the moment whilst Fam is doing ok but missing decent chances, Wiemann is disappointing. Don’t get me started on Spunkyo - he is never making it at this level.

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