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Major Isewater

LJ challenging SL ?

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4 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I think this might be part of the problem, Johnson said earlier this month that Afobe   remains our player, so presumably we are paying his wages.

You seriously believe that the club just look at one player at a time? The only people putting all their eggs in one basket, were on this forum.

Does that mean we are treating him? Either way if we’ve kept him we must be confident of him returning before the end of the season I imagine, else you’d think the loan would have been terminated

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7 minutes ago, Meh said:

I read the LJ article and to be honest I was ok with what he said BUT his last comment “I would be happy with my squad if you can guarantee me no more injuries” was slightly concerning.

I thought he was adamant (as I think 90% of fans are) that whatever happens we must bring in a striker.

I fear we won’t and at the moment whilst Fam is doing ok but missing decent chances, Wiemann is disappointing. Don’t get me started on Spunkyo - he is never making it at this level.

Now call me Mr Outoftouch but who in Hades name is ‘ Spunkyo ‘ ? 

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2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Now call me Mr Outoftouch but who in Hades name is ‘ Spunkyo ‘ ? 

Darn auto-correct. I’m sure I typed Semenyo 🤔

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19 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I wonder what they consider as being respectable? A bit like your dad pre judging your prospective partner...can base their decision on outward appearance, social status etc. SL allegedly removing Luke Ayling because of Cheltenham!
 

A character doesn’t necessarily mean bad (like Tomlin) but constantly rejecting a more individual character, or a more left field type of signing, could mean that you end up with exactly the same kind of person. “A lack of leaders...etc”

I remember being sat watching FGRs when SoD was in charge. Sat in the Carol Embrey suite watching a game with some scouts from Birmingham and Southampton. They both remarked on one player that us and them had scouted,that had all the attributes to make it as a top player, but it was his social life, network of friends and outside 'activities' that he enjoyed too much that stopped him progressing further at a higher level. 

They really do look into outside influences these days. An example closer to home was the young German keeper we had, who enjoyed being a footballer, rather than football. We got rid as his influence would run off on other young players.

For the same reason I think Bakinsons loan will do him the world of good. As it did Reid...sometimes you need that outside influence to prove to you that you haven't made it yet.

Look at the influence Tammy also had on Reid. 

The more positive hard workers with for want of a better word...'hard working family values', the better.

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27 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Does that mean we are treating him? Either way if we’ve kept him we must be confident of him returning before the end of the season I imagine, else you’d think the loan would have been terminated

Believe he is being treated back in London which also means close to family.

Not in Stoke’s interest to let it be terminated.

@spudski Austrian!! 

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Nothing new here. Move on.
Johnson is now throwing the owner “under the bus”. Common place to throw the players. Johnson will be gone this summer. Will be glad to see him gone.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Brentford are not stockpiling bang average players with a modicum of potential in the hope that we get £36m for them three years down the line in anything like the ratio that we do

I misread that as patio. Strange how they’re pronounced differently, isn’t it. 

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6 hours ago, Kibs said:

I think Dave Fevs mentioned it yesterday too but at the game yesterday, we also discussed whether his refusal to make any subs for so long was his “Steve Cotterill” moment and a message to the board.

What I would say though is that he has been given more than enough resource in the transfer market to put the squad together he wants. 

The man himself was there yesterday! 

6EBCD52D-FC28-40BE-BA3A-EC927838E5B1.png

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1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

He had scored 3 in 5, let’s say 15 or 16 in 28 league games that still could have made a huge difference, and everyone pointed out, his style of play suited the passing style more, so we were looking more attractive. 
If that was the case, the “roulette” as you call it may not have been as damaging. Certainly when we were doing well up to Xmas two seasons ago, no one cared about the rotation, until we started slipping.

Agree it could have made a difference, but that assumes that scoring has been our problem, and I don't believe that Afobe makes us better defensively.

There wasn't much rotation that I can remember when we were doing well as we had some injuries and the system was a fairly stable 4-5-1 with either Bobby up front with Pato in behind, then the midfield 4 was Brownhill, Pack, Smith and then either Bryan or Pato depending on if Fam played, and the back 4 was largely stable with Wright, Flint, Baker and then Maggs or Bryan. 

That was the key we had a stable style and system and first 11 and it worked, then a couple of bad results and we suddenly go away from that and start chopping and changing. 

Same this season, we look reasonably solid playing 3-5-2, couple of bad results and we throw that out and then begins the annual system and personnel bingo. 

The same thing has happened for 3 years on the trot now, luckily this season the championship is so bad that we are still in touch. 

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

DNA didn’t stop us signing Lee Tomlin when the whole world knew he was an accident waiting to happen (as it happens he appears to be in a better place right now).

But you might be right, there may be players who failed some sort of “test” and as a result we have not got the talent in that the first team needed.

Leads to the question “do footballers have to be nice, be respectable or win football matches?”.

I think Lee Tomlin is the reason DNA is now as important as it is. 

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19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Believe he is being treated back in London which also means close to family.

Not in Stoke’s interest to let it be terminated.

@spudski Austrian!! 

Yes mate...the lad we got from Munich.

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2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:I say , slightly tongue in cheek , hope Mrs Johnson does the household budget ..........as if left to Lee they’d have six hoovers , four microwaves, a couple of which are crap and he’s put in the loft , a spare three piece suite, a couple of shiny cars on the drive, not enough money left to pay the kids school fees, but now Lees eyeing up another new car....

Given LJ’s reported financial prudence and budgeting in the property market making him potentially (on paper at least) a millionaire, I wonder if Mrs Johnson might disagree with you....

And you need 4 microwaves when two are broken and one of the other 2 overcooks your microwave curry one day and under cooks your soup the next....

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54 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Believe he is being treated back in London which also means close to family.

Not in Stoke’s interest to let it be terminated.

@spudski Austrian!! 

I get that, would teams not usually put that in as a clause though?

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6 hours ago, Kibs said:

I think Dave Fevs mentioned it yesterday too but at the game yesterday, we also discussed whether his refusal to make any subs for so long was his “Steve Cotterill” moment and a message to the board.

What I would say though is that he has been given more than enough resource in the transfer market to put the squad together he wants. 

The options off the bench to go win the game were Semenyo... and O'Dowda. And he even talks about possibly putting O'Dowda on earlier but he thought Pato looked dangerous.

I actually totally agree that the team on the pitch was the right team to go win the game because of the number of good chances WE were creating. And I was thinking maybe O'Dowda on a bit earlier, and that's it.

You don't have to make subs to make subs. If you've (not you specifically) complained about the "Tombola" then what are you doing complaining about him NOT making changes?

I dislike the sensationalism of the fans these days. He's sending a message, he's challenging Steve Lansdown. Blah blah.

Maybe he's just trying to win a game and saying how things are. People should leave the headlines to the Journalists. The disgusting obsession with attention has infected OTIB and its posters. Likes and replies are not a measure of self worth.

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17 minutes ago, Prinny said:

The options off the bench to go win the game were Semenyo... and O'Dowda. And he even talks about possibly putting O'Dowda on earlier but he thought Pato looked dangerous.

I actually totally agree that the team on the pitch was the right team to go win the game because of the number of good chances WE were creating. And I was thinking maybe O'Dowda on a bit earlier, and that's it.

You don't have to make subs to make subs. If you've (not you specifically) complained about the "Tombola" then what are you doing complaining about him NOT making changes?

I dislike the sensationalism of the fans these days. He's sending a message, he's challenging Steve Lansdown. Blah blah.

Maybe he's just trying to win a game and saying how things are. People should leave the headlines to the Journalists. The disgusting obsession with attention has infected OTIB and its posters. Likes and replies are not a measure of self worth.

Prissy . 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Prissy . 
 

 

You use tabloid "journalism" techniques.

"Swipe" at Ashton. "Challenge" Lansdown.

Why are you, the supporter of Bristol City, trying to do that? They do it because they want people to click. Why are you?

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16 minutes ago, Prinny said:

You use tabloid "journalism" techniques.

"Swipe" at Ashton. "Challenge" Lansdown.

Why are you, the supporter of Bristol City, trying to do that? They do it because they want people to click. Why are you?

I was opening a debate on a report I found interesting which is now into three pages which shows that I am not the only one. 
 

I interpreted the interview as a ‘ challenge ‘ to SL because that’s how it comes over to me , others may disagree . 

He is , effectively, stating that if SL has ambition then he needs to pay the going rate for the type of player needed. 
 

He also called out Mark Ashton for the lack of said player but ‘ candy wrapped ‘ it to avoid conflict. 

I see it as an appeal . LJ is covering his back  at a critical time in his management career . He knows what’s needed to match ‘ his ‘ ambition. 

I detest ‘ click bait ‘ titles and mine certainly wasn’t one of those . 

Anyhow I am happy to start topics and apparently you are in the minority to criticise my style Prinny . 

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6 hours ago, Kibs said:

Actually, if you listen to the 10 minute press conference, he doesn’t say that at all. 

4mins 50 onwards in the press conference LJ says, and I quote - “The talent ID is down to me”

He goes on to say the negotiations etc are down to MA. 

I’m not sure why you are so desperate to relinquish any responsibility from LJ for the signings we have made?

Listen to the 10 minute press conference

I did indeed listen to the whole presser and indeed he did say that “talent id” is down I him. 

The difference you need to discern is between “talent id” and “targets”. 
 

There are many people responsible for talent id, LJ being one. 

Trying to break this down as simply as possible, as it’s a regular query, this is the basic outline of how it works

All names feed into a system, or for want of a better description, a database. 
Names that go into the database could come from any sources, LJ, Macca, Holden, Ashton, Lansdown, Agents, players etc. 
That’s the ID part done. 
 

The recruitment team and analysts, headed up by Ashton, then produce data on these players.  
 

That leads to a series of likely targets.
Whereupon the analysts produce more detailed data. 

That target list is presented to LJ. 
 

LJ will have a look at this list and do some of his own ‘homework’ on them (as in @BobBobSuperBob’s Eliasson example). 
If time allows, he may even scout them personally - although in many cases this is not done, or if it is, not to the 15-20 game level you’d want to be able to ‘thoroughly’ assess a player. 
 

LJ and MA will put together their top targets. Plans A through to K as it were. 
 

MA attempts to acquire the targets, in order of plan a to k. 
 

So in summary, Talent ID is from anyone. Most research and scouting is by MA and his team. LJ expresses his priorities and MA attempts to secure them.  
The fact we may sometimes end up with Option K as opposed to option A is down to MA (and SL). There may also have been an Option P which we hadn’t fed into the system, or an Option R which was ID’d but didn’t reach the shortlist stage. 
There are of course many other complications in this process, some of which LJ will be involved in, others not, but the above is a very simplistic outline, the straw man. 

We have no head scout. We are relying more and more on the database and from names presented by specific agents (this is VERY prevalent). 
Does anyone really think LJ had a big say in Pereira, Nagy, HNM, Duric, Hegeler, Diony etc etc. 
These won’t be from the database either. They’d be from specific agents. They’d be the types who are presented to LJ as options. LJ won’t have watched Nagy 15 times to assess whether he’s got all the attributes he wants as a Pack replacement. He’d have had to go on the information presented by Ashton and his team. 
The fact we now know that Nagy doesn’t have the attributes to directly replace Pack is a fault of the process, not of LJ. And that failing means that the playing style has to adapt, ie no continuity. 

To all the doubters out there - look, I’m not excusing LJ. He does some weird things and he has to address certain aspects of his role. He plays a part in the recruitment process, of course he does. But it’s a much smaller part than the ‘traditional’ set up we’ve had in the past and which most clubs in England run. We have a different set up. A different process. That’s why only certain managers are compliant enough to work within the structure. That’s why I keep reiterating the part that Ashton has in player recruitment, and that a lot of the responsibilities fall on him. 
We do not operate a simple system such as many other teams (including us in the past) have always operated. 
Traditional systems would be “manager likes player, manager and chief scout watch player many times, we contact players club and agent and begin talks”. 
People need to understand that we don’t do this. And by that rationale the responsibility for incoming players is NOT wholly at the managers door. It’s the whole process/system and the person who’s in charge of that system is MA. That’s where the buck stops. 
 

When I’ve presented this on here before people have said “well why doesn’t LJ grow a pair and say something”. Well, I think we’re just recently witnessing his growth of a pair. He’s called Ashton out twice in a week - subtly, but it’s there. 
Now that he’s done that, the same people are now saying “he’s looking to blame anyone but himself”. 
Can’t have it both ways guys. LJ is not the sole bearer of responsibility in failing to recruit players to fit his team. And now he’s beginning to show signs of struggle against this system he’s not now passing the blame, he’s calling out the truth. For 4 years he’s been happy to stay relatively quiet. Aside from a couple of summers ago when he expressed that the “foreign experiments” need to stop, he’s been very compliant and protected Ashton. He’s now called him out. 
Yesterdays interview, for me, was very much one of “we’ve drawn up our list, if MA does his bit we’ll ideally have Option A or B. If we end up with Option K again from Slovakia I’d rather stick with what we’ve already got”. 
 

Back to @BobBobSuperBob and your points re Eliasson. I remember it well. LJ saying they were looking at the database, matching up stats for someone like Knockaert and Eliasson came up. 
LJ wouldn’t have been involved in the process of identifying him. He’d have said, I want someone with the production of Knockaert. The analysts would’ve presented him with Eliasson and LJ would’ve taken a look at his stats and footage on wyscout. 
He definitely would not have been someone that LJ himself had fed into the system. Absolutely no chance. He would’ve been fed into the database by an analyst who’d searched an assist stat on wyscout. 
 

We have to accept that this is the way we are doing things and that some will come good and others will fail. But we must please please get away from this “LJ’s signed 50 players and doesn’t know his best team” nonsense. Our model is different to all others in this league. People need to become more aware of that and not just throw their angst at the manager - whomever that may be. 

LJ needs to do better with what he’s got. Absolutely. I won’t argue with that. But what he’s got is not always what he necessarily wanted, or even what he thought he was getting. 

Edited by Harry
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22 minutes ago, Harry said:

I did indeed listen to the whole presser and indeed he did say that “talent id” is down I him. 

The difference you need to discern is between “talent id” and “targets”. 
 

There are many people responsible for talent id, LJ being one. 

Trying to break this down as simply as possible, as it’s a regular query, this is the basic outline of how it works

All names feed into a system, or for want of a better description, a database. 
Names that go into the database could come from any sources, LJ, Macca, Holden, Ashton, Lansdown, Agents, players etc. 
That’s the ID part done. 
 

The recruitment team and analysts, headed up by Ashton, then produce data on these players.  
 

That leads to a series of likely targets.
Whereupon the analysts produce more detailed data. 

That target list is presented to LJ. 
 

LJ will have a look at this list and do some of his own ‘homework’ on them (as in @BobBobSuperBob’s Eliasson example). 
If time allows, he may even scout them personally - although in many cases this is not done, or if it is, not to the 15-20 game level you’d want to be able to ‘thoroughly’ assess a player. 
 

LJ and MA will put together their top targets. Plans A through to K as it were. 
 

MA attempts to acquire the targets, in order of plan a to k. 
 

So in summary, Talent ID is from anyone. Most research and scouting is by MA and his team. LJ expresses his priorities and MA attempts to secure them.  
The fact we may sometimes end up with Option K as opposed to option A is down to MA (and SL). There may also have been an Option P which we hadn’t fed into the system, or an Option R which was ID’d but didn’t reach the shortlist stage. 
There are of course many other complications in this process, some of which LJ will be involved in, others not, but the above is a very simplistic outline, the straw man. 

We have no head scout. We are relying more and more on the database and from names presented by specific agents (this is VERY prevalent). 
Does anyone really think LJ had a big say in Pereira, Nagy, HNM, Duric, Hegeler, Diony etc etc. 
These won’t be from the database either. They’d be from specific agents. They’d be the types who are presented to LJ as options. LJ won’t have watched Nagy 15 times to assess whether he’s got all the attributes he wants as a Pack replacement. He’d have had to go on the information presented by Ashton and his team. 
The fact we now know that Nagy doesn’t have the attributes to directly replace Pack is a fault of the process, not of LJ. And that failing means that the playing style has to adapt, ie no continuity. 

To all the doubters out there - look, I’m not excusing LJ. He does some weird things and he has to address certain aspects of his role. He plays a part in the recruitment process, of course he does. But it’s a much smaller part than the ‘traditional’ set up we’ve had in the past and which most clubs in England run. We have a different set up. A different process. That’s why only certain managers are compliant enough to work within the structure. That’s why I keep reiterating the part that Ashton has in player recruitment, and that a lot of the responsibilities fall on him. 
We do not operate a simple system such as many other teams (including us in the past) have always operated. 
Traditional systems would be “manager likes player, manager and chief scout watch player many times, we contact players club and agent and begin talks”. 
People need to understand that we don’t do this. And by that rationale the responsibility for incoming players is NOT wholly at the managers door. It’s the whole process/system and the person who’s in charge of that system is MA. That’s where the buck stops. 
 

When I’ve presented this on here before people have said “well why doesn’t LJ grow a pair and say something”. Well, I think we’re just recently witnessing his growth of a pair. He’s called Ashton out twice in a week - subtly, but it’s there. 
Now that he’s done that, the same people are now saying “he’s looking to blame anyone but himself”. 
Can’t have it both ways guys. LJ is not the sole bearer of responsibility in failing to recruit players to fit his team. And now he’s beginning to show signs of struggle against this system he’s not now passing the blame, he’s calling out the truth. For 4 years he’s been happy to stay relatively quiet. Aside from a couple of summers ago when he expressed that the “foreign experiments” need to stop, he’s been very compliant and protected Ashton. He’s now called him out. 
Yesterdays interview, for me, was very much one of “we’ve drawn up our list, if MA does his bit we’ll ideally have Option A or B. If we end up with Option K again from Slovakia I’d rather stick with what we’ve already got”. 
 

Back to @BobBobSuperBob and your points re Eliasson. I remember it well. LJ saying they were looking at the database, matching up stats for someone like Knockaert and Eliasson came up. 
LJ wouldn’t have been involved in the process of identifying him. He’d have said, I want someone with the production of Knockaert. The analysts would’ve presented him with Eliasson and LJ would’ve taken a look at his stats and footage on wyscout. 
He definitely would not have been someone that LJ himself had fed into the system. Absolutely no chance. He would’ve been fed into the database by an analyst who’d searched an assist stat on wyscout. 

 

We have to accept that this is the way we are doing things and that some will come good and others will fail. But we must please please get away from this “LJ’s signed 50 players and doesn’t know him best team” nonsense. Our model is different to all others in this league. People need to become more aware of that and not just throw their angst at the manager - whomever that may be. 

LJ needs to do better with what he’s got. Absolutely. I won’t argue with that. But what he’s got is not always what he necessarily wanted, or even what he thought he was getting. 

If your belief / claim about about Eliasson is true Harry , then Lee spent a considerable amount of time in an open forum with MA sat alongside him , telling porkies , as he was quite clear that he himself initially homed in on Eliasson using Wyscout (Theres some long posts on here where I went into depth and detail about what was said at that Forum including a long piece on Eliassons recruitment.) and the subsequent process.

If your belief / claim is true then one of my first recommendations to LJ would be not to mislead supporters as it will come back and bite you on the ass sooner or later.

In respect of the recruitment process , the vast majority of Clubs work in a similar way , with the idea of a manager and head scout basically doing the recruitment themselves redundant certainly in the top two if not three divisions.

Personally eyes on would be paramount in my recruitment , and I’m afraid the idea that Lee didn’t watch Nagy or anyone else x times is a poor excuse 

The wide net of potential targets across Europe and the World for some Clubs of course makes it difficult to scout or watch that many players live (Although if Lee has full confidence in a playing ethos / plan and his coaches then he should be able to spend more time on recruitment as he has has previously claimed he does) 

But

As you know and I know , as do many others , that the Analysts , Lee , JMac , Dean Holden or anyone else can watch as many clips or full games of any player anywhere in the World , as they want , and although live eyes on are always the best for me , creating some idea that he has to end up signing players he’s hardly seen or knows about is , sorry , not true.

’Our model is different to all others in this league. People need to become more aware of that and not just throw their angst at the manager - whomever that may be. ’

See Above , that’s simply not so - Allegedly we use a combination of Brentford’s data crunching moneyball model , enhanced by additional leg work , eyes on and research , according to both LJ & MA

Do you think Brentford’s managers with a Head Coach are their recruiters ?

Id suggest their Head Coach has &  have had far less say on who they get provided , than LJ 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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37 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I was opening a debate on a report I found interesting which is now into three pages which shows that I am not the only one.

Validation by reply count, exactly as I said.

I interpreted the interview as a ‘ challenge ‘ to SL because that’s how it comes over to me , others may disagree . 

He is , effectively, stating that if SL has ambition then he needs to pay the going rate for the type of player needed. 

Right, there's nothing controversial in that. You get what you pay for. "If SL has ambition"... nothing like what he said. "It depends what your ambition is". He's not effectively stating that at all. He's directly stating that "if you've got one (quality player) you've got to either go the extra mile financially to do it". Your opinion is that he's effectively stating... ok sure..but that's not what he actually says.
 

He also called out Mark Ashton for the lack of said player but ‘ candy wrapped ‘ it to avoid conflict.

I see it as an appeal . LJ is covering his back  at a critical time in his management career . He knows what’s needed to match ‘ his ‘ ambition. 

Called out? Huh? He just said it's Ashton's job to bring in players. That's not calling anyone out. Just trying to create drama where there isn't any.

I detest ‘ click bait ‘ titles and mine certainly wasn’t one of those . 

Anyhow I am happy to start topics and apparently you are in the minority to criticise my style Prinny . 

The majority and the minority. Again the validation with numbers...

"Called out" and "swipe" just aren't there unless you want it to be there. Your need for validation through numbers is confirmed by what you say, and that's why I pointed it out and am critical of it.

28 minutes ago, Harry said:

When I’ve presented this on here before people have said “well why doesn’t LJ grow a pair and say something”. Well, I think we’re just recently witnessing his growth of a pair. He’s called Ashton out twice in a week - subtly, but it’s there. 
Now that he’s done that, the same people are now saying “he’s looking to blame anyone but himself”. 

I think your post is great. But i do really disagree with the term calling out as I do with Major's post.

Explaining isn't calling out. I'd say explaining is the neutral term while calling out is an emotive term you're choosing to use which in my opinion is unjustified.

Edited by Prinny
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It was only last month that MA did an interview on how the Club recruit.

Make of it what you will.

It's pretty much like many Clubs.

A mixture of contacts, player data base, analysis, stats, scouting, recommendations, leads, Agent talk, media talk, 24/7 analysis of player situations at other clubs and with potential targets. A complete mixture.

Note MA says the Club intend to expand the Scouting system. We never replaced Mervyn Day, but do have a head Scout who was recruited from Southampton before Day left.

You only need to go on LinkedIn to see who does what at the Club. It's freely available for anyone to read.

Here's the link... https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/exclusive-mark-ashton-opens-door-3604290

It's a continual scroll down to read the whole article.

I don't think we have recruited everyone the same way. All came to the fore in different ways.

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Things are not perfect at the moment. But with 2 wins in the last 2 league games and right in the mix, I'm a bit more positive about how we are doing things.

In my lifetime we have never been a consistent mid to upper table championship team.

The style needs to improve. I'm sure LJ knows this. Things havent been done perfectly.

But let's remember we brought in Afobe. Had he stayed fit then everything could have been so much different.

I still think LJ can do better than what we have with what we've got. But I don't expect to see sexy football when we have Weimann who runs everywhere but is not the most technically gifted, and Fam who is very strong an absolute handful, but again not the most technically gifted.

LJ has shown he can get us playing amazing to watch football when we had Bobby. I'm sure he will be trying to work out ways of bringing that back into our play.

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3 minutes ago, Prinny said:

"Called out" and "swipe" just aren't there unless you want it to be there. Your need for validation through numbers is confirmed by what you say, and that's why I pointed it out and am critical of it.

I think your post is great. But i do really disagree with the term calling out as I do with Major's post.

Explaining isn't calling out. I'd say explaining is the neutral term while calling out is an emotive term you're choosing to use which in my opinion is unjustified.

In your opinion which may or may not be right . 

I expressed my opinion in my language and I don’t know why you are being critical. 
I believe in analysing messages to try to find the meaning. I don’t simply take something at face value . LJ’s interview is as interesting in what he doesn’t say as in what he does. 

I actually thought my post was quite neutral. 
 

The thread title was a question,  ergot make your own mind up . 
 

You were obviously interested enough to have a look and comment.

I talk of three pages of posts because I am delighted to have replies to my question , I thank you all and I am happy to give my fellow posters a subject that stimulates debate . 
 

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3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Does that mean we are treating him? Either way if we’ve kept him we must be confident of him returning before the end of the season I imagine, else you’d think the loan would have been terminated

I wonder if this has anything to do with the pre agreed fee. It was implied at the beginning of the loan that we have a very good price agreed as part of thd loan deal. Presumably if we terminate the loan we lose the deal. 

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47 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

If your belief / claim about about Eliasson is true Harry , then Lee spent a considerable amount of time in an open forum with MA sat alongside him , telling porkies , as he was quite clear that he himself initially homed in on Eliasson using Wyscout (Theres some long posts on here where I went into depth and detail about what was said at that Forum including a long piece on Eliassons recruitment.) and the subsequent process.

If your belief / claim is true then one of my first recommendations to LJ would be not to mislead supporters as it will come back and bite you on the ass sooner or later.

In respect of the recruitment process , the vast majority of Clubs work in a similar way , with the idea of a manager and head scout basically doing the recruitment themselves redundant certainly in the top two if not three divisions.

Personally eyes on would be paramount in my recruitment , and I’m afraid the idea that Lee didn’t watch Nagy or anyone else x times is a poor excuse 

The wide net of potential targets across Europe and the World for some Clubs of course makes it difficult to scout or watch that many players live (Although if Lee has full confidence in a playing ethos / plan and his coaches then he should be able to spend more time on recruitment as he has has previously claimed he does) 

But

As you know and I know , as do many others , that the Analysts , Lee , JMac , Dean Holden or anyone else can watch as many clips or full games of any player anywhere in the World , as they want , and although live eyes on are always the best for me , creating some idea that he has to end up signing players he’s hardly seen or knows about is , sorry , not true.

’Our model is different to all others in this league. People need to become more aware of that and not just throw their angst at the manager - whomever that may be. ’

See Above , that’s simply not so - Allegedly we use a combination of Brentford’s data crunching moneyball model , enhanced by additional leg work , eyes on and research , according to both LJ & MA

Do you think Brentford’s managers with a Head Coach are their recruiters ?

Id suggest their Head Coach has &  have had far less say on who they get provided , than LJ 

Brentford’s model is different again. It’s pure moneyball. It’s why Warburton left, for example. 
 

The Eliasson situation. Yes, of course a manager is going to back up his clubs philosophy in public - and particularly in a public forum. Yes, LJ would’ve seen the analysis presented to him, (as he explained to you) but he wouldn’t have “Talent ID’d” Niclas himself. It’s called toe-ing the party line, unified front and all that. 

When LJ worked under a different system he identified players like Ben Pearson, Daniel Johnson, Korey Smith, Johnson Clarke-Harris, Dan Crowley, Ivan Toney, Ashley Fletcher, Joe Rothwell, Kadeem Harris. All signings he made. 
We’re not seeing the likes of these type of players - that’s very telling. 
 

Re your Nagy comment / example. I’m not saying LJ didn’t watch him. He might have done. But he certainly wouldn’t have watched him enough times to fully understand his strengths and weaknesses and how he could translate him into his team. This signing would’ve come from an agent recommendation, put through the analytics, presented to LJ, who would’ve run through the player analysis on wyscout and maybe he might’ve had a chance to get eyes on once. 
It would be pretty damn far from what you and I know the old recruitment style would’ve been (you’ve been a scout Bob, as have I). If we were watching someone we’d watch them a number of times live (eyes on), get a real feel for their all round game and how they integrate with the team, how they carry out instruction, how they react to game situations and self-manage their challenges presented them on the pitch, game intelligence and situational awareness as much as technical prowess, etc etc. 
In the case of someone like Nagy, I would be amazed if the analytics provided everything LJ would want to know about a player, and I’d be amazed if he was watched more than once or twice live by any member of our staff. 
 

You’ve been a scout Bob. Would you recommend a player to your club based on stats and some YouTube videos? Of course you wouldn’t. As you say, you’d want “eyes on”. A number of times. Enough to be confident in exactly what you were getting. 
That’s not how we’re doing it anymore. 

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32 minutes ago, Harry said:

Brentford’s model is different again. It’s pure moneyball. It’s why Warburton left, for example. 
 

The Eliasson situation. Yes, of course a manager is going to back up his clubs philosophy in public - and particularly in a public forum. Yes, LJ would’ve seen the analysis presented to him, (as he explained to you) but he wouldn’t have “Talent ID’d” Niclas himself. It’s called toe-ing the party line, unified front and all that. 

When LJ worked under a different system he identified players like Ben Pearson, Daniel Johnson, Korey Smith, Johnson Clarke-Harris, Dan Crowley, Ivan Toney, Ashley Fletcher, Joe Rothwell, Kadeem Harris. All signings he made. 
We’re not seeing the likes of these type of players - that’s very telling. 
 

Re your Nagy comment / example. I’m not saying LJ didn’t watch him. He might have done. But he certainly wouldn’t have watched him enough times to fully understand his strengths and weaknesses and how he could translate him into his team. This signing would’ve come from an agent recommendation, put through the analytics, presented to LJ, who would’ve run through the player analysis on wyscout and maybe he might’ve had a chance to get eyes on once. 
It would be pretty damn far from what you and I know the old recruitment style would’ve been (you’ve been a scout Bob, as have I). If we were watching someone we’d watch them a number of times live (eyes on), get a real feel for their all round game and how they integrate with the team, how they carry out instruction, how they react to game situations and self-manage their challenges presented them on the pitch, game intelligence and situational awareness as much as technical prowess, etc etc. 
In the case of someone like Nagy, I would be amazed if the analytics provided everything LJ would want to know about a player, and I’d be amazed if he was watched more than once or twice live by any member of our staff. 

 

You’ve been a scout Bob. Would you recommend a player to your club based on stats and some YouTube videos? Of course you wouldn’t. As you say, you’d want “eyes on”. A number of times. Enough to be confident in exactly what you were getting. 
That’s not how we’re doing it anymore. 

Ta for the reply

Weve probably done this to death now ! (For now ! :laugh:) 

Would I reccomend a player on stats and video clips - no of course not (As a scout I probably wouldn’t look at stats at all )

More importantly , As a head coach would I sign a player based predominantly stats and video clips - Absolutely no chance

Id want to have seen him live on a fair few occasions , and at bare minimum , live / ‘eyes on’ plenty of recent full games he’s played in on ‘tape’ 

 

 

So coming onto your point below 

‘ Re your Nagy comment / example. I’m not saying LJ didn’t watch him. He might have done. But he certainly wouldn’t have watched him enough times to fully understand his strengths and weaknesses and how he could translate him into his team. This signing would’ve come from an agent recommendation, put through the analytics, presented to LJ, who would’ve run through the player analysis on wyscout and maybe he might’ve had a chance to get eyes on once. ‘

 

if he wasn’t satisfied with the amount he’s seen , to be confident in what he’s getting , he shouldn’t be signing him IMHO (In a similar way to @Davefevs ‘grow some ******’ posts)

The main man I worked for said , as a manager

‘ you are only as good as the players you sign ‘  

and there is a large basis truth in that IMHO, although getting the best out of them is the second part and something he was actually excellent at.

I do think recruitment is paramount and the lifeblood for any success so If you are correct in your explanations ,  I would reccomend to Lee he spends less time on the training pitch and leave that to JMc & DH at times , and balance more time into recruitment or make a very strong request to SL that he is allowed to employ a ‘eyes on’ stand in / Scout , that he trusts , knows , who knows Lee and what Lee wants .

There is no great evidence of a side incessantly drilled on the training ground so time in good recruitment may prove fruitful 

 

 

 

 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I get that, would teams not usually put that in as a clause though?

Not according to @Coppello....we will be paying the full year’s loan.

@Harry - thanks for the lengthy reply.  Appreciate it...and the one that’s come in as I started typing this.

@BobBobSuperBob - good response too.

If I was gonna sum this up, I’d say both LJ and MA need to improve, recruitment-wise.

With players like Nagy, we have got to be spotting them earlier to allow full due diligence to be completed, both my the Recruitment Team and by LJ.  Was it Pisano or Djuric that LJ went to Italy to see several times.  Late in summer window suggests it was rushed.  Lee needs to say “no” or was Pack on his way and we said “hold on until we get a replacement in”.

I posted the other week that LJ might have a blind spot re European based players.  Either it needs to be on his Performance Development Plan (I joke a bit, but there is a serious point too), to expand his knowledge or he needs to accept other’s views, and the risks that come with in...and not blame MA’s team if he gets a dud.  FWIW, I don’t think Nagy is a dud, but if one thing stuck from his interview this week it’s that he doesn’t look mentally tough.  Having seen him at Charlton Farm and even in post-game celebrations he looks a bit of a loner....maybe just settling in taking longer.  I’m not gonna speculate what the club are doing or what they aren’t to help.  Back to blind-spot, perhaps LJ needs to acknowledge this and say I want 80% of my list of targets to be British based (even if Austrian like Weimann), and on the flip, MA needs to weight his analysis in that favour too.  He’s not helping if he keeps giving Lee lists of players LJ can only rely on videos to evaluate.  LJ May need to accept he’ll miss out on someone too.

That to me is evolving Recruitment, perhaps more importantly both side recognising it needs evolving.

 

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Also @Harry and you or a couple of notable others on here may have a good idea / answer to this

How well do the analysts & recruitment team know and understand Lee ?

 

I’d be intrigued to know the quality / background of the analysts , ability to data crunch & statistical analysis is one thing - an ‘understanding’ and ‘ eye for a player’ another  and the analysts need to understand Lee and exactly what he wants

Whoever I was working for , whether doing opponents or player reports , I saw myself as his eyes, whatever beliefs I had & at every opportunity I would question Whoever I was working for how he was looking to play , what he saw as his sides strengths and weaknesses and, etc etc  what he looked for in a player 

Would be interesting to know how much the recruitment team know Lee and in what depth , what he wants , is looking for etc

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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Brilliant question, one I’ve always wanted to know.

Same question for the analysts sat in the stands doing in-game analysis.

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13 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Also @Harry and you or a couple of notable others on here may have a good idea / answer to this

How well do the analysts & recruitment team know and understand Lee ?

 

I’d be intrigued to know the quality / background of the analysts , ability to data crunch & statistical analysis is one thing - an ‘understanding’ and ‘ eye for a player’ another  and the analysts need to understand Lee and exactly what he wants

Whoever I was working for , whether doing opponents or player reports , I saw myself as his eyes, whatever beliefs I had & at every opportunity I would question Whoever I was working for how he was looking to play , what he saw as his sides strengths and weaknesses and, etc etc  what he looked for in a player 

Would be interesting to know how much the recruitment team know Lee and in what depth , what he wants , is looking for etc

I’d like to know the recruitment team’s credentials. How many are there? What are their roles etc? How much is down analytics alone? There’s so much to question about the setup at City. 
 

a well respected scout (forget his name) left due to a difference of opinion regarding City’s recruitment policy, what would’ve that been? Too much reliance on data? Not enough eyes on players?

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Brilliant question, one I’ve always wanted to know.

Same question for the analysts sat in the stands doing in-game analysis.

a better question that !! 

 

And  !

are they providing opinions and what they see as important to LJ 

or 

Does LJ (via Dh) only ask them simple answers to a specific question on occasions , and nearly always for confirmation of what he thinks he’s seeing from pitchside

IMHO Dave , anything outside that doesn’t sit right with me 

 

Be interesting to know how many of the analysts have and do watch LJ when he’s coaching or his pre match briefs and pre match talk , to get to understand him

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Also @Harry and you or a couple of notable others on here may have a good idea / answer to this

How well do the analysts & recruitment team know and understand Lee ?

 

I’d be intrigued to know the quality / background of the analysts , ability to data crunch & statistical analysis is one thing - an ‘understanding’ and ‘ eye for a player’ another  and the analysts need to understand Lee and exactly what he wants

Whoever I was working for , whether doing opponents or player reports , I saw myself as his eyes, whatever beliefs I had & at every opportunity I would question Whoever I was working for how he was looking to play , what he saw as his sides strengths and weaknesses and, etc etc  what he looked for in a player 

Would be interesting to know how much the recruitment team know Lee and in what depth , what he wants , is looking for etc

 

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Brilliant question, one I’ve always wanted to know.

Same question for the analysts sat in the stands doing in-game analysis.

 

4 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I’d like to know the recruitment team’s credentials. How many are there? What are their roles etc? How much is down analytics alone? There’s so much to question about the setup at City. 
 

a well respected scout (forget his name) left due to a difference of opinion regarding City’s recruitment policy, what would’ve that been? Too much reliance on data? Not enough eyes on players?

 

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

a better question that !! 

 

And  !

are they providing opinions and what they see as important to LJ 

or 

Does LJ (via Dh) only ask them simple answers to a specific question on occasions , and nearly always for confirmation of what he thinks he’s seeing from pitchside

IMHO Dave , anything outside that doesn’t sit right with me 

I reckon @Knighty is our man 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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38 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Ta for the reply

Weve probably done this to death now ! (For now ! :laugh:) 

Would I reccomend a player on stats and video clips - no of course not (As a scout I probably wouldn’t look at stats at all )

More importantly , As a head coach would I sign a player based predominantly stats and video clips - Absolutely no chance

Id want to have seen him live on a fair few occasions , and at bare minimum , live / ‘eyes on’ plenty of recent full games he’s played in on ‘tape’ 

 

 

So coming onto your point below 

‘ Re your Nagy comment / example. I’m not saying LJ didn’t watch him. He might have done. But he certainly wouldn’t have watched him enough times to fully understand his strengths and weaknesses and how he could translate him into his team. This signing would’ve come from an agent recommendation, put through the analytics, presented to LJ, who would’ve run through the player analysis on wyscout and maybe he might’ve had a chance to get eyes on once. ‘

 

if he wasn’t satisfied with the amount he’s seen , to be confident in what he’s getting , he shouldn’t be signing him IMHO (In a similar way to @Davefevs ‘grow some ******’ posts)

The main man I worked for said , as a manager

‘ you are only as good as the players you sign ‘  

and there is a large basis truth in that IMHO, although getting the best out of them is the second part and something he was actually excellent at.

I do think recruitment is paramount and the lifeblood for any success so If you are correct in your explanations ,  I would reccomend to Lee he spends less time on the training pitch and leave that to JMc & DH at times , and balance more time into recruitment or make a very strong request to SL that he is allowed to employ a ‘eyes on’ stand in / Scout , that he trusts , knows , who knows Lee and what Lee wants .

There is no great evidence of a side incessantly drilled on the training ground so time in good recruitment may prove fruitful 

 

 

 

 

I’d agree with all of that mate. 
But it’s not the way we do things now. 
Those things should ABSOLUTELY happen. LJ should stand up and say “I want xyz to come in as my head scout”. 
I think LJ has ‘had’ to trust the system and trust MA - but I think he’s seeing too many cracks now and he’s beginning to speak out. He absolutely needs someone in recruitment who he trusts. 

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5 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I’d like to know the recruitment team’s credentials. How many are there? What are their roles etc? How much is down analytics alone? There’s so much to question about the setup at City. 
 

a well respected scout (forget his name) left due to a difference of opinion regarding City’s recruitment policy, what would’ve that been? Too much reliance on data? Not enough eyes on players?

I think I’m right Max that there’s towards double figures at least , unless it’s recently been trimmed or expanded

They of course are split into recruitment analysis  / opponents analysis / our performances analyst etc

Im pretty certain we have a head of data analysts (Or similar wording) as a specific role 

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6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

a better question that !! 

 

And  !

are they providing opinions and what they see as important to LJ 

or 

Does LJ (via Dh) only ask them simple answers to a specific question on occasions , and nearly always for confirmation of what he thinks he’s seeing from pitchside

IMHO Dave , anything outside that doesn’t sit right with me 

 

Be interesting to know how many of the analysts have and do watch LJ when he’s coaching or his pre match briefs and pre match talk , to get to understand him

 

 

 

 

 

 

I reckon @Knighty is our man 

@hodge we are calling you!!!

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2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I think I’m right Max that there’s towards double figures at least , unless it’s recently been trimmed or expanded

They of course are split into recruitment analysis  / opponents analysis / our performances analyst etc

Im pretty certain we have a head of data analysts (Or similar wording) as a specific role 

Sean Gilhespie - head of recruitment analysts I think

Sam Stanton - ditto for performances analysts I think

Might have them round the wrong way?

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8 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’d agree with all of that mate. 
But it’s not the way we do things now. 
Those things should ABSOLUTELY happen. LJ should stand up and say “I want xyz to come in as my head scout”. 
I think LJ has ‘had’ to trust the system and trust MA - but I think he’s seeing too many cracks now and he’s beginning to speak out. He absolutely needs someone in recruitment who he trusts. 

Interesting debate / conv this 👍

And a key issue / subject IMHO

So ......where do the cracks emanate from Harry in your opinion ?

Quality of recruitment team

or

The understanding of Lee by analyst team not in sync

 

Something is hindering any hint smooth progress under LJ and thus the spotlight naturally falls on him 

If its recruitment more than any coaching or man management issues (And I have to say I have doubts in both to some degrees) he needs to sort it out pronto or it will cost him 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting debate / conv this

So ......where do the cracks emanate from Harry in your opinion ?

Quality of recruitment team

or

The understanding of Lee by analyst team not in sync

 

Something is hindering any hint smooth progress under LJ and thus the spotlight naturally falls on him 

If its recruitment more than any coaching or man management issues (And I have to say I have doubts in both to some degrees) he needs to sort it out pronto or it will cost him 

What do the in match analysts focus on? Is it data driven? Number of passes etc? Or do they report where things aren’t working regarding line up and tactics? If so, do they feed this back to LJ? And what does he do with this info?

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sean Gilhespie - head of recruitment analysts I think

Sam Stanton - ditto for performances analysts I think

Might have them round the wrong way?

A whole empire !!

When did football become so complicated !

Too much data confusing the mind IMHO

I remember Lee describing the pack he receives on a Monday re Saturdays game and described it as inches thick 

Going to sound a dinosaur , but Not sure that’s helpful

You saw the game Lee, you lived it , watch it again quietly on your own , and then again maybe with JMc & Dh all together, then check any odd stats or bits you want to check

Lee is a football man , he’s grown up with it from day one through his Dad and then his own journey from Arsenal onwards and into management , been around the game all his life , when the recruitment team was Archie in his Ford Cortina

Hes trying to be modern and keep up with all the new ideas but I’d bet a fair few quid he would actually be happier , and more successful if he relied on his instincts and football gut

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5 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

What do the in match analysts focus on? Is it data driven? Number of passes etc? Or do they report where things aren’t working regarding line up and tactics? If so, do they feed this back to LJ? And what does he do with this info?

Somebody else with better modern knowledge will help with the content Max but see my post above regarding the size of the pack he gets !

What he does with it , again I can’t specifically answer but he stated he did go through it

I would anticipate analysts of our performances would also produce clips for Lee to look at , use in coaching / De briefs or send to players on their I Pads to look at 

Again some focused players may ask them , or question aspects with them , to look at their own performances 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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5 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Does that mean we are treating him? Either way if we’ve kept him we must be confident of him returning before the end of the season I imagine, else you’d think the loan would have been terminated

Terminate a loan because a player got injured while training. Oh yeah that’s going to happen. BCFC will have to cover their end of the agreement financially. If there is insurance for a situation like this, which there undoubtedly is, some of the cost will be carried by the third party but terminating the loan in any financial or responsible sense will not be an option under these circumstances 

However the word has always been that he has a chance this season. Pray it’s soon. 

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39 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Also @Harry and you or a couple of notable others on here may have a good idea / answer to this

How well do the analysts & recruitment team know and understand Lee ?

 

I’d be intrigued to know the quality / background of the analysts , ability to data crunch & statistical analysis is one thing - an ‘understanding’ and ‘ eye for a player’ another  and the analysts need to understand Lee and exactly what he wants

Whoever I was working for , whether doing opponents or player reports , I saw myself as his eyes, whatever beliefs I had & at every opportunity I would question Whoever I was working for how he was looking to play , what he saw as his sides strengths and weaknesses and, etc etc  what he looked for in a player 

Would be interesting to know how much the recruitment team know Lee and in what depth , what he wants , is looking for etc

Best question ever Bob. I like it. 
 

So, when I was scouting, exactly like yourself I knew the team, knew the boss, knew the strengths and weaknesses of the squad, knew exactly what we were looking for, had regular contact with the manager and head scout, had specific requests for what type of player he wanted etc etc. 
 

The analysts, I will absolutely guarantee you, are definitely not supporters of this club. They do not have a history and understanding of this club. And they are NOT scouts (in the sense that we’d know what a scout is and does). 
 

I’ve met some of the ‘recruitment team’. I have to tell you, in brutal honesty, I was struck by how meek they seemed. If you want to see what a ‘yes’ man looks like, I’ll give you the couple of members of that team that I’ve met. I would be amazed if they strayed from their analytics and actually spoke up with a personal opinion of a player they were reporting on. It’s black and white stuff, no opinions offered. 
 

They are stat boffins. When you talk about an “eye for a player”....jeez, mate, honestly these people will fill you with zero confidence. I wouldn’t trust them to conduct a warm-up / stretching session for my Sunday team. Meek, weak data geek. 

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If we don’t make playoffs actually think it may benefit all parties for LJ to leave at the end of the season. 

He will leave with his reputation untarnished. Will likely be able to walk easily in to another Championship job.

We will likely have the opportunity to get a bigger name head coach who fingers crossed can take us to the prem. 

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15 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

A whole empire !!

When did football become so complicated !

Too much data confusing the mind IMHO

I remember Lee describing the pack he receives on a Monday re Saturdays game and described it as inches thick 

Going to sound a dinosaur , but Not sure that’s helpful

You saw the game Lee, you lived it , watch it again quietly on your own , and then again maybe with JMc & Dh all together, then check any odd stats or bits you want to check

Lee is a football man , he’s grown up with it from day one through his Dad and then his own journey from Arsenal onwards and into management , been around the game all his life , when the recruitment team was Archie in his Ford Cortina

Hes trying to be modern and keep up with all the new ideas but I’d bet a fair few quid he would actually be happier , and more successful if he relied on his instincts and football gut

Just emailed you a Wyscout match report.  24 pages, and this will be tip of the iceberg stuff.  If Lee gets “inches”, then it’s overkill, unless the first page summarises really succinctly.  

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10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Best question ever Bob. I like it. 
 

So, when I was scouting, exactly like yourself I knew the team, knew the boss, knew the strengths and weaknesses of the squad, knew exactly what we were looking for, had regular contact with the manager and head scout, had specific requests for what type of player he wanted etc etc. 
 

The analysts, I will absolutely guarantee you, are definitely not supporters of this club. They do not have a history and understanding of this club. And they are NOT scouts (in the sense that we’d know what a scout is and does). 
 

I’ve met some of the ‘recruitment team’. I have to tell you, in brutal honesty, I was struck by how meek they seemed. If you want to see what a ‘yes’ man looks like, I’ll give you the couple of members of that team that I’ve met. I would be amazed if they strayed from their analytics and actually spoke up with a personal opinion of a player they were reporting on. It’s black and white stuff, no opinions offered. 
 

They are stat boffins. When you talk about an “eye for a player”....jeez, mate, honestly these people will fill you with zero confidence. I wouldn’t trust them to conduct a warm-up / stretching session for my Sunday team. Meek, weak data geek. 

@Beni71 hope your teams aren’t like this 😂😂😂😂😂

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4 minutes ago, Harry said:

Best question ever Bob. I like it. 
 

So, when I was scouting, exactly like yourself I knew the team, knew the boss, knew the strengths and weaknesses of the squad, knew exactly what we were looking for, had regular contact with the manager and head scout, had specific requests for what type of player he wanted etc etc. 
 

The analysts, I will absolutely guarantee you, are definitely not supporters of this club. They do not have a history and understanding of this club. And they are NOT scouts (in the sense that we’d know what a scout is and does). 
 

I’ve met some of the ‘recruitment team’. I have to tell you, in brutal honesty, I was struck by how meek they seemed. If you want to see what a ‘yes’ man looks like, I’ll give you the couple of members of that team that I’ve met. I would be amazed if they strayed from their analytics and actually spoke up with a personal opinion of a player they were reporting on. It’s black and white stuff, no opinions offered. 
 

They are stat boffins. When you talk about an “eye for a player”....jeez, mate, honestly these people will fill you with zero confidence. I wouldn’t trust them to conduct a warm-up / stretching session for my Sunday team. Meek, weak data geek. 

Thankyou , that’s really interesting

Hmmmmmm

Maybe I’m a dinosaur , times move on , and everything has a place and some use ...but ......hmmmmm

As I said earlier Lees strengths will lie in his lifetime and experience in football , his open mind to new ideas good but if I was his mate I’d recommend him to put a lot to the side for a bit (He does seem to love the thought of small margins and his toys !) and use his football experience and gut more

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20 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting debate / conv this 👍

And a key issue / subject IMHO

So ......where do the cracks emanate from Harry in your opinion ?

Quality of recruitment team

or

The understanding of Lee by analyst team not in sync

 

Something is hindering any hint smooth progress under LJ and thus the spotlight naturally falls on him 

If its recruitment more than any coaching or man management issues (And I have to say I have doubts in both to some degrees) he needs to sort it out pronto or it will cost him 

I agree that LJ has to improve regards man management. Arguably he has coached improvement into many players and helped toward their onward value, but of course his methods may have worked for some and not for others, so yes, coaching can always be improved upon. 

The cracks in the recruitment, for me, are coming from the fact that players crucial to the system are leaving and not being adequately replaced. The last 3 years have been a rebuild and restyle each season. Of course managers have to cope and adapt to players being sold, but too many are coming in who aren’t what he wants. He’s said himself numerous times about quality over quantity. I think he’s always kept his cards close to his chest but is now getting frustrated with it. The perennial search for a striker. Yet to be delivered. That’s what the ambition comment was, I believe. I’m also convinced there’s a disagreement with the approach from MA in regards to certain agents - this is a ‘who you know’, ‘you scratch my back’ kind of industry and I’m convinced that certain agents (and thus their players) are not considered. In fact, balls on the table, I’m not assuming here, I know agents who’ve told me this. 

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6 hours ago, Robbored said:

Dave - none of us know what the working relationship between MA and LJ is actually like but according to LJ they work closely together and speak everyday......and it’s essential that they are compatible in the jobs they do.

Reading on here that there’s difficulties in their working relationship is, to me absolute phantasy  and those that post it have a not so hidden agenda.

They're bound to get on well and speak often. They speak the very same 'language'. 

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9 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Where the issue might arise is availability. If we get to a point where Mark Ashton can only say, “the only deal I can get for you is......”, what does he do? The choice is he either takes a player that wasn’t his first choice, or he tries to go with what he has already. Either decision is going to get him criticised by the supporters, because we can’t see behind the scenes in that process.

What most supporters perhaps struggle with is, Afobe was going to be out most of the season and MA/SL should have been lining up a replacement well in advance of the January window. Appreciate that selling/loan clubs need to be on board and agreeable to a deal but it begs the question what the hell have they been doing the past 4 months?

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