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Major Isewater

LJ challenging SL ?

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12 minutes ago, Harry said:

I agree that LJ has to improve regards man management. Arguably he has coached improvement into many players and helped toward their onward value, but of course his methods may have worked for some and not for others, so yes, coaching can always be improved upon. 

The cracks in the recruitment, for me, are coming from the fact that players crucial to the system are leaving and not being adequately replaced. The last 3 years have been a rebuild and restyle each season. Of course managers have to cope and adapt to players being sold, but too many are coming in who aren’t what he wants. He’s said himself numerous times about quality over quantity. I think he’s always kept his cards close to his chest but is now getting frustrated with it. The perennial search for a striker. Yet to be delivered. That’s what the ambition comment was, I believe. I’m also convinced there’s a disagreement with the approach from MA in regards to certain agents - this is a ‘who you know’, ‘you scratch my back’ kind of industry and I’m convinced that certain agents (and thus their players) are not considered. In fact, balls on the table, I’m not assuming here, I know agents who’ve told me this. 

Gotta call him out then.  Perhaps Jan Window would be bad timing, but summer?  Cards on the table (maybe not balls Harry!) to SL once season over.  Back himself, even if the season hasn’t ended well.

Sorry, ganging up on you today!  But, how much of the data analysis is down to MA satisfying LJ and his ‘wanting to be all modern and scientific”?  Or is MA thrusting it at LJ and saying “here it is, you decipher it all”.  Probably somewhere in between???

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35 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thankyou , that’s really interesting

Hmmmmmm

Maybe I’m a dinosaur , times move on , and everything has a place and some use ...but ......hmmmmm

As I said earlier Lees strengths will lie in his lifetime and experience in football , his open mind to new ideas good but if I was his mate I’d recommend him to put a lot to the side for a bit (He does seem to love the thought of small margins and his toys !) and use his football experience and gut more

Klopp has just paid tribute to his analysts for their role in today's win. Face it Bob, you're a dinosaur! 🙂

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10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Klopp has just paid tribute to his analysts for their role in today's win. Face it Bob, you're a dinosaur! 🙂

I just saw that and laughed China

If it’s good enough for Klopp

Why should I question 🤣

#BOBISADINOSAUR

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59 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Gotta call him out then.  Perhaps Jan Window would be bad timing, but summer?  Cards on the table (maybe not balls Harry!) to SL once season over.  Back himself, even if the season hasn’t ended well.

Sorry, ganging up on you today!  But, how much of the data analysis is down to MA satisfying LJ and his ‘wanting to be all modern and scientific”?  Or is MA thrusting it at LJ and saying “here it is, you decipher it all”.  Probably somewhere in between???

The work on the analytical approach started before LJ was here. Remember, Ashton started this ‘project’ back in 2014, before he was put to one side for a couple of years. 
So that’s as clear an answer as I could give, I guess, and one you can very much read between the lines. 😉

I suppose I’d quantify a bit further and refer again to an earlier post re LJ’s transfer business prior to BCFC. Pearson, Johnson, Toney, Smith, Crowley, Fletcher, Rothwell, Harris, Clarke-Harris. That’s LJ’s bread and butter mate. 

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Best question ever Bob. I like it. 
 

So, when I was scouting, exactly like yourself I knew the team, knew the boss, knew the strengths and weaknesses of the squad, knew exactly what we were looking for, had regular contact with the manager and head scout, had specific requests for what type of player he wanted etc etc. 
 

The analysts, I will absolutely guarantee you, are definitely not supporters of this club. They do not have a history and understanding of this club. And they are NOT scouts (in the sense that we’d know what a scout is and does). 
 

I’ve met some of the ‘recruitment team’. I have to tell you, in brutal honesty, I was struck by how meek they seemed. If you want to see what a ‘yes’ man looks like, I’ll give you the couple of members of that team that I’ve met. I would be amazed if they strayed from their analytics and actually spoke up with a personal opinion of a player they were reporting on. It’s black and white stuff, no opinions offered. 
 

They are stat boffins. When you talk about an “eye for a player”....jeez, mate, honestly these people will fill you with zero confidence. I wouldn’t trust them to conduct a warm-up / stretching session for my Sunday team. Meek, weak data geek. 

But we've brought in some fantastic players haven't we so not sure they're doing a bad job at all?

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You see the more I read on this thread the more I think I have no ideal what football is about today.

Thought I had some understanding but I don't. Not a dig at anyone a few on here have in depth on the workings of the modern game.

Just glad of the time when football was a simple game for people like me!!!

Anyway lads keep posting I'll try to keep up.

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4 hours ago, Harry said:

I did indeed listen to the whole presser and indeed he did say that “talent id” is down I him. 

The difference you need to discern is between “talent id” and “targets”. 
 

There are many people responsible for talent id, LJ being one. 

Trying to break this down as simply as possible, as it’s a regular query, this is the basic outline of how it works

All names feed into a system, or for want of a better description, a database. 
Names that go into the database could come from any sources, LJ, Macca, Holden, Ashton, Lansdown, Agents, players etc. 
That’s the ID part done. 
 

The recruitment team and analysts, headed up by Ashton, then produce data on these players.  
 

That leads to a series of likely targets.
Whereupon the analysts produce more detailed data. 

That target list is presented to LJ. 
 

LJ will have a look at this list and do some of his own ‘homework’ on them (as in @BobBobSuperBob’s Eliasson example). 
If time allows, he may even scout them personally - although in many cases this is not done, or if it is, not to the 15-20 game level you’d want to be able to ‘thoroughly’ assess a player. 
 

LJ and MA will put together their top targets. Plans A through to K as it were. 
 

MA attempts to acquire the targets, in order of plan a to k. 
 

So in summary, Talent ID is from anyone. Most research and scouting is by MA and his team. LJ expresses his priorities and MA attempts to secure them.  
The fact we may sometimes end up with Option K as opposed to option A is down to MA (and SL). There may also have been an Option P which we hadn’t fed into the system, or an Option R which was ID’d but didn’t reach the shortlist stage. 
There are of course many other complications in this process, some of which LJ will be involved in, others not, but the above is a very simplistic outline, the straw man. 

We have no head scout. We are relying more and more on the database and from names presented by specific agents (this is VERY prevalent). 
Does anyone really think LJ had a big say in Pereira, Nagy, HNM, Duric, Hegeler, Diony etc etc. 
These won’t be from the database either. They’d be from specific agents. They’d be the types who are presented to LJ as options. LJ won’t have watched Nagy 15 times to assess whether he’s got all the attributes he wants as a Pack replacement. He’d have had to go on the information presented by Ashton and his team. 
The fact we now know that Nagy doesn’t have the attributes to directly replace Pack is a fault of the process, not of LJ. And that failing means that the playing style has to adapt, ie no continuity. 

To all the doubters out there - look, I’m not excusing LJ. He does some weird things and he has to address certain aspects of his role. He plays a part in the recruitment process, of course he does. But it’s a much smaller part than the ‘traditional’ set up we’ve had in the past and which most clubs in England run. We have a different set up. A different process. That’s why only certain managers are compliant enough to work within the structure. That’s why I keep reiterating the part that Ashton has in player recruitment, and that a lot of the responsibilities fall on him. 
We do not operate a simple system such as many other teams (including us in the past) have always operated. 
Traditional systems would be “manager likes player, manager and chief scout watch player many times, we contact players club and agent and begin talks”. 
People need to understand that we don’t do this. And by that rationale the responsibility for incoming players is NOT wholly at the managers door. It’s the whole process/system and the person who’s in charge of that system is MA. That’s where the buck stops. 
 

When I’ve presented this on here before people have said “well why doesn’t LJ grow a pair and say something”. Well, I think we’re just recently witnessing his growth of a pair. He’s called Ashton out twice in a week - subtly, but it’s there. 
Now that he’s done that, the same people are now saying “he’s looking to blame anyone but himself”. 
Can’t have it both ways guys. LJ is not the sole bearer of responsibility in failing to recruit players to fit his team. And now he’s beginning to show signs of struggle against this system he’s not now passing the blame, he’s calling out the truth. For 4 years he’s been happy to stay relatively quiet. Aside from a couple of summers ago when he expressed that the “foreign experiments” need to stop, he’s been very compliant and protected Ashton. He’s now called him out. 
Yesterdays interview, for me, was very much one of “we’ve drawn up our list, if MA does his bit we’ll ideally have Option A or B. If we end up with Option K again from Slovakia I’d rather stick with what we’ve already got”. 
 

Back to @BobBobSuperBob and your points re Eliasson. I remember it well. LJ saying they were looking at the database, matching up stats for someone like Knockaert and Eliasson came up. 
LJ wouldn’t have been involved in the process of identifying him. He’d have said, I want someone with the production of Knockaert. The analysts would’ve presented him with Eliasson and LJ would’ve taken a look at his stats and footage on wyscout. 
He definitely would not have been someone that LJ himself had fed into the system. Absolutely no chance. He would’ve been fed into the database by an analyst who’d searched an assist stat on wyscout. 
 

We have to accept that this is the way we are doing things and that some will come good and others will fail. But we must please please get away from this “LJ’s signed 50 players and doesn’t know his best team” nonsense. Our model is different to all others in this league. People need to become more aware of that and not just throw their angst at the manager - whomever that may be. 

LJ needs to do better with what he’s got. Absolutely. I won’t argue with that. But what he’s got is not always what he necessarily wanted, or even what he thought he was getting. 

Cheers Harry, a good read that. I think much of what you say about the process if you like has been covered by interviews that LJ and MA have done in recent seasons on the Transfer windows. We've been quite open about our recruitment process. I'd suggest the current squad is a mix of what LJ wanted and some of what definitely wasn't his first choice. I distinctively remember LJ's excitement around the signing of Eliasson in particular and I don't think it can be argued that a number of the current and past squads aren't exactly what LJ wanted - they obviously are. Brownhill, Watkins, Walsh, Bentley, Wright, Abraham, Paterson just quickly off the top of my head were not signed statistically shall we say. They are players he knew, liked and wanted - he said as much when they signed. 

But as well as those he wanted, came the signings you've highlighted above. These are obviously names he hasn't just come up with but was maybe all that was available to him?

It's worth remembering the excitement in the summer when got some the more recent signings over the line, especially the Chelsea trio. I think it's fair to say few could believe we'd manage to sign all 3 permanently and the general consensus was that we'd done brilliantly to get them. MA was flavour of the month. 

I suppose I have little sympathy for LJ when it comes to transfers because as a club, we made some fantastic signings in the summer (and previous windows). Unless you are an elite club, how often do you get exactly what you want or your plan A? Rarely. 

He has sent a message to the board/MA about what he wants, especially with his comment about ambition. I'm glad he has - I'd love to see more honesty like that from him. He needs to say it as it is more often IMO. He's clearly frustrated not to have one or two in already.

Lets hope he gets what he wants in the next week or so to give us the best chance possible of finishing as high as possible 🙂

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13 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

You see the more I read on this thread the more I think I have no ideal what football is about today.

Thought I had some understanding but I don't. Not a dig at anyone a few on here have in depth on the workings of the modern game.

Just glad of the time when football was a simple game for people like me!!!

Anyway lads keep posting I'll try to keep up.

😀 ha ha, yep. It really should be more straight forward. 
A lot of people making a lot of money out of a lot of bollocks. 😂

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40 minutes ago, Harry said:

The work on the analytical approach started before LJ was here. Remember, Ashton started this ‘project’ back in 2014, before he was put to one side for a couple of years. 
So that’s as clear an answer as I could give, I guess, and one you can very much read between the lines. 😉

I suppose I’d quantify a bit further and refer again to an earlier post re LJ’s transfer business prior to BCFC. Pearson, Johnson, Toney, Smith, Crowley, Fletcher, Rothwell, Harris, Clarke-Harris. That’s LJ’s bread and butter mate. 

A decent record for loans from big clubs. Could've easily had CHO and Nketiah to add to that list too.

 

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27 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But we've brought in some fantastic players haven't we so not sure they're doing a bad job at all?

Indeed. We’ve brought in some good players. Others not so good. But have we brought in the ‘right’ ones, or indeed, the ones we ‘need’. 
I guess I’m not generally arguing against the system/process. It’s there, we’re using it, and it won’t change. It’s more the fact people use the turnover of players (50 signings) to berate LJ, and I’m simply trying to steer people in the right direction as to the responsibility for this, because it’s all easy to blame the manager, but that’s not how we work any more. 

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52 minutes ago, Harry said:

The work on the analytical approach started before LJ was here. Remember, Ashton started this ‘project’ back in 2014, before he was put to one side for a couple of years. 
So that’s as clear an answer as I could give, I guess, and one you can very much read between the lines. 😉

I suppose I’d quantify a bit further and refer again to an earlier post re LJ’s transfer business prior to BCFC. Pearson, Johnson, Toney, Smith, Crowley, Fletcher, Rothwell, Harris, Clarke-Harris. That’s LJ’s bread and butter mate. 

It did indeed....and Cotts erased it from the hard-drive 😂😂😂

Thats why I think Lee needs to own more of recruitment, or as Bob and I have suggested have someone he really trusts somewhere in there.  There needs to a football-man in there.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Beni71 hope your teams aren’t like this 😂😂😂😂😂

@Davefevs ha they stand out a mile! Introverted, limited communication skills, lack social skills and sometimes fail to answer the question 😂

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

 

 

I was always under the impression SoD started the 'revolution' of analysis before MA got fully involved.

Was it not SoD who brought Stanton in from WBA to oversee the analysis side to the Club.

He's been here ever since and apparently seen as an important part of the team and shares the same offices as the coaching staff...so always in the loop.

I guess you've met him too? Only met him once...but he doesn't come across as meak and is eufa coaching level...so no mug so to speak.

Happy to be told otherwise.

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12 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

So were we in for Brewster or did the Ryan Kent episode scupper our chances of getting a loan from Liverpool?

It’s all gone very quiet from the club about bringing anyone in up front, only Rodri leaving. That could be good news that Afobe might be back sooner than originally thought. But “limited options” up front is a valid gripe from LJ, with only Semenyo on the bench, who has shown little evidence that he can play at this level.

They are very hopeful that he could be back before the end of the season according to Dean Holden the other day.

:fingerscrossed:

 

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8 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Now call me Mr Outoftouch but who in Hades name is ‘ Spunkyo ‘ ? 

he is the great new coming, most people with whom I have spoken with say he's orgasmic(whatever that is).

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3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:I reckon @Knighty is our man 

@Bob Bob Super Bob I love to tell otib but I don’t know the answer of how many...

considering 80/90% of this website mock me n have abused me I find this ‘tagging in’ strange... but I’ll try again... last time.

city have a bunch of analysis/recruitment team behind the scenes, they are not scouts and purely work on a basis of percentages, data etc.

rhey work under Ashton, my friend boss is Ashton. 
I can only speak what I know of his role so... his role is to find players that suit what we need so for example there are 3 types of players they analyse.

1) your quick fix type of players aka Afobe, doiny (yikes) Watkins Matty Taylor  etc. These players are purely stat/reputation proven not going by anything but what they call gut feeling in the department.. people who look good on paper but haven’t been checked over by the team if there fit, on form, family issues etc. Prob like ur hogans, mccormacks etc

2) my friends role this one is targets we are after with sell on ability.... these are the types we are look at for months on end and go deep into checking out... your eisa, Palmer, de silva types. Full on scouting, data, xg, social life, even interview family n people who worked with them before ( I was surprised to learn that’s ex managers, players) now these are not instant targets unless needed to ‘speed’ up the need for them.. these are usually summer targets that are constantly being monitored. My mates team started Out as 3 people : and now their roughly 7:8 of them. They look at all positions of team weather we fans think we need them or not.. they visit them, watch them checking on all targets.

3) yhese are the/u23 targets that work with Tinnion n Damien Butt looking across the  country for youngsters that can come in n be developed.

now my mate ,for example I’ll use Eisa cause that’s who he worked 8 months on, watched every game for last 2 years on him. Strengths weaknesses data etc. It’s not about scoring goals unfortunately 😂 it’s the whole package... attitude, social life, family life, diets, wages etc etc. My mate does his work hands it to mr Ashton. That’s it his job his fine next target.

now what happens with data after that no one knows. Hence my mate saying got good chance of signing this person n never hear of them or we sign. As explained before Ollie Watkins to mo eisa... both worked on by my mate and he still baffled as to why we didn’t nab Watkins as he told Ashton to his face he best striker in league 1/2 and ticked every box u could want.

now as stated before by me I know we’re LOOKING at Maja that’s only one I do know we been analysing for a while, again more a summer target..

it’s obvious but January are more the 1)point where ur looking for instant hits not caring about other strategies it’s just loans etc to get in and get u instant results...

hope this helps but k no doubt get a clobbering of the purest on here who think there one scout in the stands watching 1 target per position it’s not....

I have 2 theories about January.

1) we won’t get anyone and if it is it be very last minute

2) things go wrong and fans get on management n owners back and do a Matty Taylor n offer the cash peanuts for Clarke Harris to appease the fans ... it happen before.

anyway let the abuse start...

ctid

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6 hours ago, Harry said:

..............So in summary, Talent ID is from anyone.........................

Most from OTIB are thrown straight in the bin.............

 

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10 minutes ago, Knighty said:

@Bob Bob Super Bob I love to tell otib but I don’t know the answer of how many...

considering 80/90% of this website mock me n have abused me I find this ‘tagging in’ strange... but I’ll try again... last time.

city have a bunch of analysis/recruitment team behind the scenes, they are not scouts and purely work on a basis of percentages, data etc.

rhey work under Ashton, my friend boss is Ashton. 
I can only speak what I know of his role so... his role is to find players that suit what we need so for example there are 3 types of players they analyse.

1) your quick fix type of players aka Afobe, doiny (yikes) Watkins Matty Taylor  etc. These players are purely stat/reputation proven not going by anything but what they call gut feeling in the department.. people who look good on paper but haven’t been checked over by the team if there fit, on form, family issues etc. Prob like ur hogans, mccormacks etc

2) my friends role this one is targets we are after with sell on ability.... these are the types we are look at for months on end and go deep into checking out... your eisa, Palmer, de silva types. Full on scouting, data, xg, social life, even interview family n people who worked with them before ( I was surprised to learn that’s ex managers, players) now these are not instant targets unless needed to ‘speed’ up the need for them.. these are usually summer targets that are constantly being monitored. My mates team started Out as 3 people : and now their roughly 7:8 of them. They look at all positions of team weather we fans think we need them or not.. they visit them, watch them checking on all targets.

3) yhese are the/u23 targets that work with Tinnion n Damien Butt looking across the  country for youngsters that can come in n be developed.

now my mate ,for example I’ll use Eisa cause that’s who he worked 8 months on, watched every game for last 2 years on him. Strengths weaknesses data etc. It’s not about scoring goals unfortunately 😂 it’s the whole package... attitude, social life, family life, diets, wages etc etc. My mate does his work hands it to mr Ashton. That’s it his job his fine next target.

now what happens with data after that no one knows. Hence my mate saying got good chance of signing this person n never hear of them or we sign. As explained before Ollie Watkins to mo eisa... both worked on by my mate and he still baffled as to why we didn’t nab Watkins as he told Ashton to his face he best striker in league 1/2 and ticked every box u could want.

now as stated before by me I know we’re LOOKING at Maja that’s only one I do know we been analysing for a while, again more a summer target..

it’s obvious but January are more the 1)point where ur looking for instant hits not caring about other strategies it’s just loans etc to get in and get u instant results...

hope this helps but k no doubt get a clobbering of the purest on here who think there one scout in the stands watching 1 target per position it’s not....

I have 2 theories about January.

1) we won’t get anyone and if it is it be very last minute

2) things go wrong and fans get on management n owners back and do a Matty Taylor n offer the cash peanuts for Clarke Harris to appease the fans ... it happen before.

anyway let the abuse start...

ctid

Re Watkins...same Agent as Pinnock. 

I'd lay my hat as that was the reason Watkins wasn't signed. Unless that's a recent move.

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53 minutes ago, Nbafc said:

Fantastic thread, thankyou lads.

It is. Interesting and informative from people who clearly know their stuff and have some insight into how it works, or is supposed to at least.

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I think that he should have used the word 'priorities', rather than 'ambition'.

I doubt that there is anyone at the club that doesn't have an 'ambition' to be in the Premier League. How far up their list of 'priorities' it is is another matter.

However he meant it, I don't think that it will have gone down well upstairs.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

I was always under the impression SoD started the 'revolution' of analysis before MA got fully involved.

Was it not SoD who brought Stanton in from WBA to oversee the analysis side to the Club.

He's been here ever since and apparently seen as an important part of the team and shares the same offices as the coaching staff...so always in the loop.

I guess you've met him too? Only met him once...but he doesn't come across as meak and is eufa coaching level...so no mug so to speak.

Happy to be told otherwise.

Stanton wouldn’t be anything to do with SOD. 
Remember, Ashton was here setting up the recruitment systems in 2012 and 2013. I’m sure Stanton joined via Ashton around that time. West Brom connection too remember. 
SOD didn’t believe in all that mate. Nor did Burt. 
Stanton is ‘head of geeks’. He’s not geek mode, he just tells the geeks what to do. 
As young Knighty alludes to, the guys under Stanton are not scouts per se, they’re geeks. And trust me, the ones I’ve met before, meek. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Stanton wouldn’t be anything to do with SOD. 
Remember, Ashton was here setting up the recruitment systems in 2012 and 2013. I’m sure Stanton joined via Ashton around that time. West Brom connection too remember. 
SOD didn’t believe in all that mate. Nor did Burt. 
Stanton is ‘head of geeks’. He’s not geek mode, he just tells the geeks what to do. 
As young Knighty alludes to, the guys under Stanton are not scouts per se, they’re geeks. And trust me, the ones I’ve met before, meek. 

Yh not experts in the sense that like my mate who only played to a certain  standard and wasn’t an ex pro like some scouts are.

clubs departments like ours are full of university  graduates in sport, technology etc

now don’t get me wrong city still will have scouts but there not used like before.. u think like eisa or Watkins or others once Ashton and Johnson I assume break the list down then they go n watch them.. 

my mate watches games live n footage in the office. Live he says u get a better feel but get distracted by other things so those it from home or laptop. If u think when ur scouting in old days u never had technology to help u it was all done by eye... now no club that can use by eye method.

try watch bt sport programme about lower leagues manager every week n u see what I mean... even Lincoln had a couple guys with laptops called analysts who scout next polenta n there own team.

 

we just have the luxury of a team of many who do all areas and use technology for everything 

 

welcome to modern football 

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14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I would to a large extent, because he’s made some good and bad recruits.  But I’d want to start with a trimmer squad in the first place and link accountability to him.  MA can run the operations of the Recruitment team, and can do the deal, but give Lee total responsibility for any player recruited....remove any ambiguity.  

Yes thats fine Dave but whoever takes over from johnson got his work cut out getting rid again we had this problem going back a few years .

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14 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

You are being a little on unfair on our recruiters , no club can get it right every time as players are human beings and sometimes are happier at one club than another.
 

We have had some fantastic signings. 

 I would condone new signings on the basis of , potentially, better quality to help a promotion push but I would make it perfectly clear that unless the top six is achieved this season then things need to change in the summer.

A clear out of playing and coaching staff would be the result of failure for me .

 

Yes fine but as ive stated to Dave fews we had this problem a few years back im not saying they are all bad five or six good signings but a lot of dead wood and players we will struggle to get rid of .

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7 hours ago, Harry said:

Stanton wouldn’t be anything to do with SOD. 
Remember, Ashton was here setting up the recruitment systems in 2012 and 2013. I’m sure Stanton joined via Ashton around that time. West Brom connection too remember. 
SOD didn’t believe in all that mate. Nor did Burt. 
Stanton is ‘head of geeks’. He’s not geek mode, he just tells the geeks what to do. 
As young Knighty alludes to, the guys under Stanton are not scouts per se, they’re geeks. And trust me, the ones I’ve met before, meek. 

Meek Geeks , great name for a band .

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10 hours ago, Harry said:

Indeed. We’ve brought in some good players. Others not so good. But have we brought in the ‘right’ ones, or indeed, the ones we ‘need’. 
I guess I’m not generally arguing against the system/process. It’s there, we’re using it, and it won’t change. It’s more the fact people use the turnover of players (50 signings) to berate LJ, and I’m simply trying to steer people in the right direction as to the responsibility for this, because it’s all easy to blame the manager, but that’s not how we work any more. 

Fair enough.

To be honest I don't really get the whole 50 signings or whatever people say. He's been in charge longer than most so would have made more signings than previous managers.

But also the team he took over seriously needed improving. Lansdown has admitted that they made mistakes during the Engvall and Hegeler era in the recruitment.

What we should really be looking at is the more recent windows which will show what we are doing now.

Last 3 windows there have not been many bad signings. No club ever gets every one right.

Unless it's a club that can spend as much as they want. And even they get the odd one wrong.

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16 hours ago, Harry said:

We have to accept that this is the way we are doing things and that some will come good and others will fail. But we must please please get away from this “LJ’s signed 50 players and doesn’t know his best team” nonsense. Our model is different to all others in this league. 

 

16 hours ago, spudski said:

It was only last month that MA did an interview on how the Club recruit.

Make of it what you will.

It’s pretty much like many Clubs.

 

16 hours ago, Harry said:

People need to become more aware 

We are trying, honestly, but it's, er, confusing. Sometimes. 

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Wow this has filled the gaps in a lot of why we sign certain players and also why our transfers can one minute be amazing and the next a bizarre player from nowhere who could flop.

 This is why i insist in threads blame the whole team not just LJ if results don't go our way or if we dont get that striker with the goals to push us over the line into ideally top 2 but usually the play offs! 

Edited by miketh2nd
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14 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

A whole empire !!

When did football become so complicated !

Too much data confusing the mind IMHO

I remember Lee describing the pack he receives on a Monday re Saturdays game and described it as inches thick 

Going to sound a dinosaur , but Not sure that’s helpful

You saw the game Lee, you lived it , watch it again quietly on your own , and then again maybe with JMc & Dh all together, then check any odd stats or bits you want to check

Lee is a football man , he’s grown up with it from day one through his Dad and then his own journey from Arsenal onwards and into management , been around the game all his life , when the recruitment team was Archie in his Ford Cortina

Hes trying to be modern and keep up with all the new ideas but I’d bet a fair few quid he would actually be happier , and more successful if he relied on his instincts and football gut

I get the impression that LJ utilises modern methods a great deal perhaps because his father was fairly old school.

LJ growing up alongside GJ will have seen things in his management style he liked and others he didn't. He spent years of his playing career in an environment where his selection could've been down to nepotism - perhaps LJ's apparent love of new tech and methods is a bit of a psychological need to separate his own management from his dad's and carve out his own identity. 

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9 hours ago, Harry said:

Stanton wouldn’t be anything to do with SOD. 
Remember, Ashton was here setting up the recruitment systems in 2012 and 2013. I’m sure Stanton joined via Ashton around that time. West Brom connection too remember. 
SOD didn’t believe in all that mate. Nor did Burt. 
Stanton is ‘head of geeks’. He’s not geek mode, he just tells the geeks what to do. 
As young Knighty alludes to, the guys under Stanton are not scouts per se, they’re geeks. And trust me, the ones I’ve met before, meek. 

Guess the Club should change the main Website then bud.

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/teams/first-team-staff/sam-stanton/

Think SoD was asked to put everything in place behind the scenes when he came here...and that included analysis.

Working on the same kind of thing at Pompey. Putting their house in order so to speak.

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/mark-kelly-explains-sean-o-driscoll-s-portsmouth-academy-remit-1-8861356

 

Edited by spudski
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11 hours ago, Knighty said:

@Bob Bob Super Bob I love to tell otib but I don’t know the answer of how many...

considering 80/90% of this website mock me n have abused me I find this ‘tagging in’ strange... but I’ll try again... last time.

city have a bunch of analysis/recruitment team behind the scenes, they are not scouts and purely work on a basis of percentages, data etc.

rhey work under Ashton, my friend boss is Ashton. 
I can only speak what I know of his role so... his role is to find players that suit what we need so for example there are 3 types of players they analyse.

1) your quick fix type of players aka Afobe, doiny (yikes) Watkins Matty Taylor  etc. These players are purely stat/reputation proven not going by anything but what they call gut feeling in the department.. people who look good on paper but haven’t been checked over by the team if there fit, on form, family issues etc. Prob like ur hogans, mccormacks etc

2) my friends role this one is targets we are after with sell on ability.... these are the types we are look at for months on end and go deep into checking out... your eisa, Palmer, de silva types. Full on scouting, data, xg, social life, even interview family n people who worked with them before ( I was surprised to learn that’s ex managers, players) now these are not instant targets unless needed to ‘speed’ up the need for them.. these are usually summer targets that are constantly being monitored. My mates team started Out as 3 people : and now their roughly 7:8 of them. They look at all positions of team weather we fans think we need them or not.. they visit them, watch them checking on all targets.

3) yhese are the/u23 targets that work with Tinnion n Damien Butt looking across the  country for youngsters that can come in n be developed.

now my mate ,for example I’ll use Eisa cause that’s who he worked 8 months on, watched every game for last 2 years on him. Strengths weaknesses data etc. It’s not about scoring goals unfortunately 😂 it’s the whole package... attitude, social life, family life, diets, wages etc etc. My mate does his work hands it to mr Ashton. That’s it his job his fine next target.

now what happens with data after that no one knows. Hence my mate saying got good chance of signing this person n never hear of them or we sign. As explained before Ollie Watkins to mo eisa... both worked on by my mate and he still baffled as to why we didn’t nab Watkins as he told Ashton to his face he best striker in league 1/2 and ticked every box u could want.

now as stated before by me I know we’re LOOKING at Maja that’s only one I do know we been analysing for a while, again more a summer target..

it’s obvious but January are more the 1)point where ur looking for instant hits not caring about other strategies it’s just loans etc to get in and get u instant results...

hope this helps but k no doubt get a clobbering of the purest on here who think there one scout in the stands watching 1 target per position it’s not....

I have 2 theories about January.

1) we won’t get anyone and if it is it be very last minute

2) things go wrong and fans get on management n owners back and do a Matty Taylor n offer the cash peanuts for Clarke Harris to appease the fans ... it happen before.

anyway let the abuse start...

ctid

Thankyou Knighty , for taking the time to type & passing on your knowledge / understanding - Interesting 👍

 

A few q’s I’m interested by , if you know ......

 

Am I right , as you appear to indicate, there are additional analyst teams ?  for

Opponents

In House analysis (Our performances etc)  

 

Can I also ask , out of interest , does the lad you know who you explain watches every game of a potential target , does he write a report after each game or just periodic input ?

And , as far as you are aware , is his analysis more data & analysis based or his views and explanations ?


Also , if you know , is one target assigned to one analyst to watch , or do they all watch a certain target / prospective target ?

 

and finally !   How much weight is given to the view of analyst teams , do you have any impression(s) via your contact ?

 

All Interesting / thought provoking 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I get the impression that LJ utilises modern methods a great deal perhaps because his father was fairly old school.

LJ growing up alongside GJ will have seen things in his management style he liked and others he didn't. He spent years of his playing career in an environment where his selection could've been down to nepotism - perhaps LJ's apparent love of new tech and methods is a bit of a psychological need to separate his own management from his dad's and carve out his own identity. 

An interesting thought PF

Tbf to him he appears to be a modern thinking bloke, in life generally  , and football , and certainly someone who enthuses about the technical aids - drones , his 5m square Interactive screen/tele Etc (

In fairness , a lot of coaches in the modern game are to varying degrees , and any coach / manager would be daft to not be aware of modern aids , and the all analysis software newly available etc , and what information it can provide.

Id love to be a fly on wall to some of the numerous conversations and discussions he has with his Dad 

Id love to know what GJs advice to him is on various bits

Of course none of us actually know , how much , Lee uses all the analysis thrown at him, and how much influence it has (I’d love to shadow him or anyone at this level, in the modern game , for a week)

It’s great to educate and update yourself, but ,   I still come back to where Lees main football knowledge really lies , and that’s his hands on / live experience as a player , having been in a professional set up as a player & been coached , his whole life, and son of a  manager in the game who has had a fair degree of success, and battles too,  and then his own journey as a coach / manager , to date

I still think I’d be encouraging him to rely on his eyes , his feel , and judgement without too many decisions being dictated by or influenced too heavily , from too much analysis, for example ,  unless on the odd occasion,  it’s overwhelming evidence against what he (And to DH / JMc) sees or think he sees,  himself.

 

 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob
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What a great thread...full of revelations.

This bit that intrigues me is what influences getting signings over the line.

Player relationship with LJ...agent relationship with MA? Both?

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Talking of Bristol Live {bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football}    There is IMHO, a great piece by Matthew Withers, today, (Monday} that echoes a great deal of my thoughts about our current situation, and I would imagine other like minded supporters?  Good piece Matthew, keep up the observations please, especially about non exisitent  entertainment value?

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Some interesting insight on this thread. It sounds very much how I imagined, lots of data and analytics sifted through by people, rejecting or selecting players based on those results. Thanks very much for taking the time to answer some of my questions. 

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19 hours ago, Knighty said:

 

try watch bt sport programme about lower leagues manager every week n u see what I mean... even Lincoln had a couple guys with laptops called analysts who scout next polenta n there own team.

Lincoln scout polenta? What tobacco factory you talking about, Knighty? 

20 hours ago, Knighty said:

 

welcome to modern football 

Tell me about it. All bloody "geek" to me, mate

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