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What can you do to heal a knee ligament injury - what happens at pro level (asking for a friend, well, my lad actually), I think it'll be more than exercises to strengthen the muscles around the ligaments, as directed by physiotherapy. 

What do our lot do up Failand when they've torn a knee ligament - anyone know?

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6 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

What can you do to heal a knee ligament injury - what happens at pro level (asking for a friend, well, my lad actually), I think it'll be more than exercises to strengthen the muscles around the ligaments, as directed by physiotherapy. 

What do our lot do up Failand when they've torn a knee ligament - anyone know?

This gives some good info mate ... https://physiologicnyc.com/knee-ligament-tear-treatment/

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

What can you do to heal a knee ligament injury - what happens at pro level (asking for a friend, well, my lad actually), I think it'll be more than exercises to strengthen the muscles around the ligaments, as directed by physiotherapy. 

What do our lot do up Failand when they've torn a knee ligament - anyone know?

Tends to be an operation & as you’ve said, muscle work to improve the strength of the muscles surrounding the ligaments, the stronger the muscles, the quicker the recovery in essence but in a local set-up (non professional) it is just rest from anything over exerting the ligaments (no contact sport or squash / tennis etc).

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Cycling is the best thing post op. I did my ACL when I was 29. Knee never been right since. Now 58 and been told I have osteoarthritis and will need a replacement knee within a few years. 

98% of Knee ligament injuries result in osteoarthritis within something like 10 yrs. Not a good injury to suffer for your long term health.

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51 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Tends to be an operation & as you’ve said, muscle work to improve the strength of the muscles surrounding the ligaments, the stronger the muscles, the quicker the recovery in essence but in a local set-up (non professional) it is just rest from anything over exerting the ligaments (no contact sport or squash / tennis etc).

 

6 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Cycling is the best thing post op. I did my ACL when I was 29. Knee never been right since. Now 58 and been told I have osteoarthritis and will need a replacement knee within a few years. 

98% of Knee ligament injuries result in osteoarthritis within something like 10 yrs. Not a good injury to suffer for your long term health.

Cheers, chaps.

Was cycling a professional recommendation Sir Geoff, or your own solution?

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6 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

 

Cheers, chaps.

Was cycling a professional recommendation Sir Geoff, or your own solution?

Cycling is good, as is swimming as they aren’t impact sports as you have the support of the pedal & the constant motion (no jerky movements) so a static / exercise bike is ideal & swimming because you have the water to surround your movements. 

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Done my PCL. As this ligament goes up through the knee and attaches to the back of the knee you can't replace with anything else ie buttock like the ACL. Just have to build up the quads and keep all other muscles around the knee strong 

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14 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

Done my PCL. As this ligament goes up through the knee and attaches to the back of the knee you can't replace with anything else ie buttock like the ACL. Just have to build up the quads and keep all other muscles around the knee strong 

It would appear there are no short cuts. And that sprawling on the couch playing video games ain't going to bring about a swift return to the fray (for my 14 year old). 

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Depends on the severity of the injury. A 'minor' tweak of the knee should not cause any real damage and remedial therapy can vary from a rest to specific movements and exertions to strengthen the joint's components. If the ligaments suffer a tear or even snap then major surgery will likely be needed - and the road to recovery with that is often a long and difficult one. Age and desire to return to competitive sport is also a considered fact.

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1 minute ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It would appear there are no short cuts. And that sprawling on the couch playing video games ain't going to bring about a swift return to the fray (for my 14 year old). 

Unfortunately not & it tends to take a lot longer than the normally estimated 9 months or so that is given for professional sports people who have surgery & professionals on hand to help with recovery throughout. It is just healing & then hard work to build things up.

But it may be an idea to keep an eye on your lads mental well being as well, if his life revolves around football & suddenly that’s taken away from him, no more playing with mates at school or down the park etc, he could start to feel left out & feel forgotten. It’s a horrible position to be in!

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I tore my ACL plus cartilage damage nearly 3 years ago which requires an operation. As stated above it takes longer to return than your pro footballers due to many reasons including them operating differently. A professional footballer tends to have a piece of their Patella (knee cap) inserted as a scaffold for the new ligament to grow which provides a quicker recovery but long term increases the chances of arthritis etc. Local non paid players tend to have a piece of their hamstring cut and used to scaffold the new ligament which has better long term advantages. From my experience your knee is never the same afterwards, I didn't play for 14months post op and would advise anyone who gets a similar injury to fully focus on the physio!

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Not a ligament injury directly but I broke my patella egg chasing a long time ago.

Post op, I spent weeks and weeks walking and then attempting to run immersed in water. As mentioned earlier, the surrounding water totally negates any impact so allows speedier recovery.

My biggest issue post op was muscle wastage as my calf and thigh, which act as the protection for your knee, just wasted away very quickly hence the need to get into the water as soon as possible.

I wish your son well with his recovery as it’s immensely frustrating.

Edited by Ska Junkie
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Had a Grade 1 ACL strain of right knee (football) followed, just after that had healed, by the left knee (tree cutting/ladder). 

Full recovery seems to take around 18 months until completely pain-free. Still got a couple of months to go for left one. 

The more physio I had the more it hurt! I just went for the ‘rest’ option. 

 

Being an oversized, oldish bloke I wore my ‘ACL Badge’ with pride. The novelty wore off after a short while though. 

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

 

Cheers, chaps.

Was cycling a professional recommendation Sir Geoff, or your own solution?

Cycling builds up the quads around the knee, which helps to keep it strong. The recommendation came from my original physio 30 odd years ago and more recently from my physio (who has worked with Swansea FC and is currently employed by the Wales RFU). Swimming is ok but not breast stroke.

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1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

Unfortunately not & it tends to take a lot longer than the normally estimated 9 months or so that is given for professional sports people who have surgery & professionals on hand to help with recovery throughout. It is just healing & then hard work to build things up.

But it may be an idea to keep an eye on your lads mental well being as well, if his life revolves around football & suddenly that’s taken away from him, no more playing with mates at school or down the park etc, he could start to feel left out & feel forgotten. It’s a horrible position to be in!

That's a great point, and yes, he is already feeling pretty forlorn, not being one of the lads going through all the highs and lows on matchday. I keep saying to him "this is what top pros go through" and that it's a part of elite level sport you don't always see (as a kid), not sure this helps much. You do worry/feel for Benik, what he has endured.

He reckons his legs are wasting away, too, so incentive there to do the strengthening exercises (if only for aesthetic / vanity reasons!)

Some great replies, thanks everyone. 

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5 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

What can you do to heal a knee ligament injury - what happens at pro level (asking for a friend, well, my lad actually), I think it'll be more than exercises to strengthen the muscles around the ligaments, as directed by physiotherapy. 

What do our lot do up Failand when they've torn a knee ligament - anyone know?

Firstly, depends which of the knee ligaments he’s done....before we jump the gun and offer advice.

Who’s diagnosed?

ACL 

PCL

or Medials?

If he’s just done it, go and see someone for a proper diagnosis, and don’t do anything on it until so.  Hope it’s not his ACL, that’s the worst unfortunately, and several on here done it, me included, but even then, there are differences in treatment / solutions, and complications too, e.g. cartilage damage too.

Fine to get a bit of info off of OTIB, but brilliant managers and player judges as we are (😂), pretty difficult to give good knee advice on a forum.

Seriously, take him to see an expert, so that he doesn’t do further damage.

574F86B6-36BE-4F2E-907B-653A4D2E3B3F.jpeg.17ce71001669c5402cbe758843bfdc49.jpeg

Edited by Davefevs
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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Firstly, depends which of the knee ligaments he’s done....before we jump the gun and offer advice.

Who’s diagnosed?

ACL 

PCL

or Medials?

If he’s just done it, go and see someone for a proper diagnosis, and don’t do anything on it until so.  Hope it’s not his ACL, that’s the worst unfortunately, and several on here done it, me included, but even then, there are differences in treatment / solutions, and complications too, e.g. cartilage damage too.

Fine to get a bit of info off of OTIB, but brilliant managers and player judges as we are (😂), pretty difficult to give good knee advice on a forum.

Seriously, take him to see an expert, so that he doesn’t do further damage.

Thought you might click on this one, Dave! 

He has been to a & e initially - this was the end of November - given exercises to do, told 4 to 8 weeks, then a physio who ok'd a return to non-contact training, only for his knee to swell up at first exertion last week.

It was the outside ligament on the knee, not the ACL, I believe. Only the lowest grade/mildest sprain.

It's just taking forever and I wondered what else was possible to aid recovery, beyond the typical strengthening exercises prescribed. He's 14 so has not quite focussed on this sufficiently so it might be simply doubling his efforts of doing lunges, squats etc.

I'm wondering if writing off the rest of this season might be best now, looking longer term.

I know you're an old crock now and have mentioned your knees before 

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41 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Thought you might click on this one, Dave! 

He has been to a & e initially - this was the end of November - given exercises to do, told 4 to 8 weeks, then a physio who ok'd a return to non-contact training, only for his knee to swell up at first exertion last week.

It was the outside ligament on the knee, not the ACL, I believe. Only the lowest grade/mildest sprain.

It's just taking forever and I wondered what else was possible to aid recovery, beyond the typical strengthening exercises prescribed. He's 14 so has not quite focussed on this sufficiently so it might be simply doubling his efforts of doing lunges, squats etc.

I'm wondering if writing off the rest of this season might be best now, looking longer term.

I know you're an old crock now and have mentioned your knees before 

When I ruptured my ACL, I didn’t know I’d actually done it.  In hindsight I reckon I strained it, or had a small tear, and in various attempts over a month or so of trying to play again, I think that was when I fully tore it.  Knee felt like it was giving out / collapsing

Lots of fluid....we’ll come back to that later.

Saw GP. Join the waiting list to see a Specialist!!  I had private medical through work, so GP agreed to a course of physio.

Physio thought I’d strained my MCL (similar to your son maybe?), and basically I went once a week physio and my own stuff (wobble board, rubber band, stair stretching etc), building the muscles up around it whilst the MCL healed.

Got to a point where she said I was ready to play again.  Trained, went well, then in last 5 minutes I tried to drill a ball, and I broke down again.  Knee felt like it gave out.

Went back to physio, tried to recreate drilling a ball in a gym area and it was fine.  Back to training.  Couple of weeks later I came back as sub.  Played 15 minutes, all fine.

Midweek, broke down in training again.  Physio then thought perhaps there might be some cartilage (menuscus) damage.  Referred to Specialist, NHS had a cancellation.  A week later I’m sat on his treatment table, knee bent, explaining all that’s happened, how I can never recreate the “giving out”, when he basically jerks my shin towards him, the knee gives out and he says “you mean like that?”.  I replied yes, and he said you’ve ruptured your ACL.  Gutted.

When I was having my reconstruction they also found that I’d knackered 2/3rds of my cartilage, and they removed it during the op.  It was this that was causing the swelling / fluid.  And it was the now lack of cartilage in my right knee that caused swelling after the op.  The ACL repair was successful itself, but I was plagued with fluid, ran a bit like Leroy Rosenior, and eventually knackered the cartilage in my other knee, which ultimately forced me to quit at 30/31.  My left knee no longer has any cartilage (I’m bone on bone!), and need a mini-knee replacement (which I’m putting off).  I don’t do any real exercise these days as that just means fluid.

If it were me, I’d try and get a second opinion / referred to a specialist.  It’s possible (not saying he has) he’s damaged cartilage, and that’s what’s causing fluid.  Could be just a lose bit of cartilage / grit, stopping the bones moving smoothly.  Fluid is your body’s way of saying ‘stop doing what you’re doing’.  Physio’s are great, but if they’re not treating the root cause, it’s a bit pointless.

You May need to go back to GP and get a referral, unless you have your own family private insurance.  Some of these ‘cash plans’ also cover the cost of seeing a private specialist, but be careful of what costs are covered and also what services the specialist will undertake.

Back in 2013 Jon Webb (the England RFU player), was charging £150 for a consultation (x2), and the £450 for the MRI and other tests.  So £750 before you know what is wrong.

DM me if you want to.  

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I have100% ACL tear and I managed to Bucket Handle my meniscus - Bascially ripped it so my meniscus flipped back inside my knee cavity.  Had the op, its never been the same and I have a gimpy limp.  If I was a professional footballer, this was a career ender.

Now I have bone on bone action, and any amount of walking or running really makes it painful.

Good luck to all those that have had bad knee surgeries and fingers crossed for a full recovery.  They are the absolute shits.

Stevo

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11 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

That's a great point, and yes, he is already feeling pretty forlorn, not being one of the lads going through all the highs and lows on matchday. I keep saying to him "this is what top pros go through" and that it's a part of elite level sport you don't always see (as a kid), not sure this helps much. You do worry/feel for Benik, what he has endured.

He reckons his legs are wasting away, too, so incentive there to do the strengthening exercises (if only for aesthetic / vanity reasons!)

Some great replies, thanks everyone. 

Squats and lunges are best exercises. Use your stairs to go up and down on alternate legs. You can also do stretches with your toes on a step to build up calf muscles 

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11 hours ago, WayOutWest said:

I have100% ACL tear and I managed to Bucket Handle my meniscus - Bascially ripped it so my meniscus flipped back inside my knee cavity.  Had the op, its never been the same and I have a gimpy limp.  If I was a professional footballer, this was a career ender.

Now I have bone on bone action, and any amount of walking or running really makes it painful.

Good luck to all those that have had bad knee surgeries and fingers crossed for a full recovery.  They are the absolute shits.

Stevo

Sounds like my knees 

5 hours ago, harvey54 said:

Squats and lunges are best exercises. Use your stairs to go up and down on alternate legs. You can also do stretches with your toes on a step to build up calf muscles 

As long as correctly diagnosed. 

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15 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Thought you might click on this one, Dave! 

He has been to a & e initially - this was the end of November - given exercises to do, told 4 to 8 weeks, then a physio who ok'd a return to non-contact training, only for his knee to swell up at first exertion last week.

It was the outside ligament on the knee, not the ACL, I believe. Only the lowest grade/mildest sprain.

It's just taking forever and I wondered what else was possible to aid recovery, beyond the typical strengthening exercises prescribed. He's 14 so has not quite focussed on this sufficiently so it might be simply doubling his efforts of doing lunges, squats etc.

I'm wondering if writing off the rest of this season might be best now, looking longer term.

I know you're an old crock now and have mentioned your knees before 

If the diagnosis was good and you can afford it then try a second physio. Not knee but I had a really poor diagnosis and subsequent ridiculous physio for a back injury. My pain threshold is pretty high but my physio insisted that I could do the exercises provided. I had breakdown after breakdown. What is right for one patient is not right for another. Physio activities can be painful but swelling after non-contact training sounds like too much too soon.  I'm in agreement with Davefevs about full diagnosis. 

Edited by Rich_s
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15 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Thought you might click on this one, Dave! 

He has been to a & e initially - this was the end of November - given exercises to do, told 4 to 8 weeks, then a physio who ok'd a return to non-contact training, only for his knee to swell up at first exertion last week.

It was the outside ligament on the knee, not the ACL, I believe. Only the lowest grade/mildest sprain.

It's just taking forever and I wondered what else was possible to aid recovery, beyond the typical strengthening exercises prescribed. He's 14 so has not quite focussed on this sufficiently so it might be simply doubling his efforts of doing lunges, squats etc.

I'm wondering if writing off the rest of this season might be best now, looking longer term.

I know you're an old crock now and have mentioned your knees before 

My lad had a partial acl tear in July 2018, it was wrongly diagnosed at Taunton Musgrove hospital where they told him it was a strain that would take 6 weeks to recover. They had x rayed him, but no mri scan!

3 months later and tons of physio it was no better. 

Back to the Drs, and he was given an appointment with a specialist, a few months later he finally got given an mri scan. That was when the severity of the injury was picked up.

He finally had an acl operation in December 2019, he is now recovering and the long road b@ck has started.

For me, the biggest thing for your lad would be to get an mri scan, that is the only way imo that you will get to find out what the injury is. 

Looking back over the 18 months my son was in limbo, now makes me wish I had found the cash for him to h@ve had a private mri scan. It would have been worth every penny and speeded the whole thing up.

Good luck to you and your lad, let’s hope he recovers soon 👍

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1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

My lad had a partial acl tear in July 2018, it was wrongly diagnosed at Taunton Musgrove hospital where they told him it was a strain that would take 6 weeks to recover. They had x rayed him, but no mri scan!

3 months later and tons of physio it was no better. 

Back to the Drs, and he was given an appointment with a specialist, a few months later he finally got given an mri scan. That was when the severity of the injury was picked up.

He finally had an acl operation in December 2019, he is now recovering and the long road b@ck has started.

For me, the biggest thing for your lad would be to get an mri scan, that is the only way imo that you will get to find out what the injury is. 

Looking back over the 18 months my son was in limbo, now makes me wish I had found the cash for him to h@ve had a private mri scan. It would have been worth every penny and speeded the whole thing up.

Good luck to you and your lad, let’s hope he recovers soon 👍

Bill, can I ask, why is there @ need to use @n every time you use @n @?😂

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21 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Cycling is the best thing post op. I did my ACL when I was 29. Knee never been right since. Now 58 and been told I have osteoarthritis and will need a replacement knee within a few years. 

98% of Knee ligament injuries result in osteoarthritis within something like 10 yrs. Not a good injury to suffer for your long term health.

Lucky you, I've got to wait about 25 years for mine.

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6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

My lad had a partial acl tear in July 2018, it was wrongly diagnosed at Taunton Musgrove hospital where they told him it was a strain that would take 6 weeks to recover. They had x rayed him, but no mri scan!

3 months later and tons of physio it was no better. 

Back to the Drs, and he was given an appointment with a specialist, a few months later he finally got given an mri scan. That was when the severity of the injury was picked up.

He finally had an acl operation in December 2019, he is now recovering and the long road b@ck has started.

For me, the biggest thing for your lad would be to get an mri scan, that is the only way imo that you will get to find out what the injury is. 

Looking back over the 18 months my son was in limbo, now makes me wish I had found the cash for him to h@ve had a private mri scan. It would have been worth every penny and speeded the whole thing up.

Good luck to you and your lad, let’s hope he recovers soon 👍

Fingers crossed he make a full and speedy (but not rushed) recovery.  Sounds a similar story to mine.

5 hours ago, jj77 said:

Lucky you, I've got to wait about 25 years for mine.

Jon Webb asked if I’d like to wait about 20 years for mine, he said, “save doing it twice” 😱😱😱

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9 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Bill, can I ask, why is there @ need to use @n every time you use @n @?😂

😂 my iPad letters/numbers are playing up, I was just off to work when I posted and didn’t have time to edit. 👍

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