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So who were the Trojans?


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I see the thread has been moved to “non football”! I think that’s really funny!

NTTDS originally asked a football question - ie who were the “Trojans” that LJ was referring to in his post match comments?

For anyone who doesn’t know, “working like a Trojan” is just a phrase meaning being hard working. The legendary Trojans were admired as being particularly industrious.

So the whole thread is supposed to be about identifying the hard working players that LJ praised after the QPR match.

So, can we discuss Helen of Troy now? How DID her face launch a thousand ships?

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I’m rather disappointed by this thread as there is too much raving about Lambrettas. The best scooter, of course, was the Vespa Sportique. Having the engine offset to one side was a slight disadvantage, but it did make the handling interesting. 

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1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

I’m rather disappointed by this thread as there is too much raving about Lambrettas. The best scooter, of course, was the Vespa Sportique. Having the engine offset to one side was a slight disadvantage, but it did make the handling interesting. 

Pongo. at my tender age of 69 I am lucky to be the custodian of 6 Vespa's, incl SS180 ( all 1960's) and a 66 Lambretta LISpecial, did have a red and white Vespa 150 Sprint that I had piccies of Bristol City on when we were promoted and due to a total lack of interest from the club :disapointed2se: I sold it to a guy in Wales who replaced my piccies with Wales rugby piccies. My avatar shows me on my 1963 GL at WSM

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4 hours ago, Leveller said:

I see the thread has been moved to “non football”! I think that’s really funny!

NTTDS originally asked a football question - ie who were the “Trojans” that LJ was referring to in his post match comments?

For anyone who doesn’t know, “working like a Trojan” is just a phrase meaning being hard working. The legendary Trojans were admired as being particularly industrious.

So the whole thread is supposed to be about identifying the hard working players that LJ praised after the QPR match.

So, can we discuss Helen of Troy now? How DID her face launch a thousand ships?

Or as Sparks said in Looks, Looks, Looks, a thousand hips.

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9 hours ago, Robbored said:

The Trojan’s were fictitious soldiers who defended the city of Troy.

He should have called his defence Spartans - they were a legendary Greek soldiers feared in the ancient world who wore red cloaks.

The Iliad, the epic poem from which the tale of the Trojan war is divined, is one of the greatest literary works of the western world and laid the foundations for the structure of western literature and narrative history. Whilst not a strict history it is likely based upon historical events. Such events were probably ancient history even to those who we consider to be ancient, most likely occurring around 3,000 years ago. Naturally the tale as described by Homer* is not true as written, the poet invokes the gods and it is very strongly a myth. However, the notion of a decade long siege sparked by an arrogant prince stealing the queen of a great city being decided by a trick involving carpentry is really not too hard to believe.

Johnson does make an error in using the Trojans as an analogy for strong defending. Whilst they defended their city valiantly for 10 years they ultimately failed through their own hubris, gullibility, and the false belief that all of the gods were on their side. Should Johnson wish to draw upon the Iliad for future defensive analogies then I would urge him to look to my favourite hero of ancient myth, Ajax the Great. Also known as Ajax son of Telamon he was one of the prominent "Greek" (lets keep it simple and refer to the mass of allied city states/tribes by the collective "Greeks") heroes of the poem. Ajax wields a huge shield made of seven cow-hides with a layer of bronze. In the Iliad he is notable for never being wounded in any of the battles described, and he is one of only two principal characters (on either side) who do not receive substantial divine assistance. He is a defensive bulwark, massively strong and tall and instrumental in the Greek defence of the body of Patroclus after he falls imitating Achilles in one of the most important battles in the poem. He is the archteypal defensive warrior of western history or myth and unlike the Trojans, Spartans, or Horatius Cocles his defence is never breached. My avatar is a picture of Ajax the Great.

You say the Spartans would be a better analogy. He should not refer to his defence as Spartans. If you are referring to King Leonidas, his 300 strong royal bodyguard, and the accompanying 7,000 support troops who fought at the battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC then you will of course also know that they also failed in their defence. Betrayed to the Persians by allies that had abandoned hope they were slaughtered to a man. If we defended valiantly for 60 minutes and then conceded 5 own goals - then perhaps the Spartans would be an appropriate analogy

"Oh stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that here we lie, obedient to their laws."

 

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4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

The Iliad, the epic poem from which the tale of the Trojan war is divined, is one of the greatest literary works of the western world and laid the foundations for the structure of western literature and narrative history. Whilst not a strict history it is likely based upon historical events. Such events were probably ancient history even to those who we consider to be ancient, most likely occurring around 3,000 years ago. Naturally the tale as described by Homer* is not true as written, the poet invokes the gods and it is very strongly a myth. However, the notion of a decade long siege sparked by an arrogant prince stealing the queen of a great city being decided by a trick involving carpentry is really not too hard to believe.

Johnson does make an error in using the Trojans as an analogy for strong defending. Whilst they defended their city valiantly for 10 years they ultimately failed through their own hubris, gullibility, and the false belief that all of the gods were on their side. Should Johnson wish to draw upon the Iliad for future defensive analogies then I would urge him to look to my favourite hero of ancient myth, Ajax the Great. Also known as Ajax son of Telamon he was one of the prominent "Greek" (lets keep it simple and refer to the mass of allied city states/tribes by the collective "Greeks") heroes of the poem. Ajax wields a huge shield made of seven cow-hides with a layer of bronze. In the Iliad he is notable for never being wounded in any of the battles described, and he is one of only two principal characters (on either side) who do not receive substantial divine assistance. He is a defensive bulwark, massively strong and tall and instrumental in the Greek defence of the body of Patroclus after he falls imitating Achilles in one of the most important battles in the poem. He is the archteypal defensive warrior of western history or myth and unlike the Trojans, Spartans, or Horatius Cocles his defence is never breached. My avatar is a picture of Ajax the Great.

You say the Spartans would be a better analogy. He should not refer to his defence as Spartans. If you are referring to King Leonidas, his 300 strong royal bodyguard, and the accompanying 7,000 support troops who fought at the battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC then you will of course also know that they also failed in their defence. Betrayed to the Persians by allies that had abandoned hope they were slaughtered to a man. If we defended valiantly for 60 minutes and then conceded 5 own goals - then perhaps the Spartans would be an appropriate analogy

"Oh stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that here we lie, obedient to their laws."

 

Of course it's not true -  it's not been confirmed on the OS!     ;)

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23 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

The Iliad, the epic poem from which the tale of the Trojan war is divined, is one of the greatest literary works of the western world and laid the foundations for the structure of western literature and narrative history. Whilst not a strict history it is likely based upon historical events. Such events were probably ancient history even to those who we consider to be ancient, most likely occurring around 3,000 years ago. Naturally the tale as described by Homer* is not true as written, the poet invokes the gods and it is very strongly a myth. However, the notion of a decade long siege sparked by an arrogant prince stealing the queen of a great city being decided by a trick involving carpentry is really not too hard to believe.

Johnson does make an error in using the Trojans as an analogy for strong defending. Whilst they defended their city valiantly for 10 years they ultimately failed through their own hubris, gullibility, and the false belief that all of the gods were on their side. Should Johnson wish to draw upon the Iliad for future defensive analogies then I would urge him to look to my favourite hero of ancient myth, Ajax the Great. Also known as Ajax son of Telamon he was one of the prominent "Greek" (lets keep it simple and refer to the mass of allied city states/tribes by the collective "Greeks") heroes of the poem. Ajax wields a huge shield made of seven cow-hides with a layer of bronze. In the Iliad he is notable for never being wounded in any of the battles described, and he is one of only two principal characters (on either side) who do not receive substantial divine assistance. He is a defensive bulwark, massively strong and tall and instrumental in the Greek defence of the body of Patroclus after he falls imitating Achilles in one of the most important battles in the poem. He is the archteypal defensive warrior of western history or myth and unlike the Trojans, Spartans, or Horatius Cocles his defence is never breached. My avatar is a picture of Ajax the Great.

You say the Spartans would be a better analogy. He should not refer to his defence as Spartans. If you are referring to King Leonidas, his 300 strong royal bodyguard, and the accompanying 7,000 support troops who fought at the battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC then you will of course also know that they also failed in their defence. Betrayed to the Persians by allies that had abandoned hope they were slaughtered to a man. If we defended valiantly for 60 minutes and then conceded 5 own goals - then perhaps the Spartans would be an appropriate analogy

"Oh stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that here we lie, obedient to their laws."

 

For my sins, one year back in the 1970s I spent almost my entire Christmas holidays translating Virgil's Aeneid (but not Homer's Iliad!) in to English in preparation for my Latin O level ?.

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On 04/02/2020 at 16:13, PHILINFRANCE said:

For my sins, one year back in the 1970s I spent almost my entire Christmas holidays translating Virgil's Aeneid (but not Homer's Iliad!) in to English in preparation for my Latin O level ?.

Obviously   Mens Sana In Corpore Sano 

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On 03/02/2020 at 17:52, ExiledAjax said:

The Iliad, the epic poem from which the tale of the Trojan war is divined, is one of the greatest literary works of the western world and laid the foundations for the structure of western literature and narrative history. Whilst not a strict history it is likely based upon historical events. Such events were probably ancient history even to those who we consider to be ancient, most likely occurring around 3,000 years ago. Naturally the tale as described by Homer* is not true as written, the poet invokes the gods and it is very strongly a myth. However, the notion of a decade long siege sparked by an arrogant prince stealing the queen of a great city being decided by a trick involving carpentry is really not too hard to believe.

Johnson does make an error in using the Trojans as an analogy for strong defending. Whilst they defended their city valiantly for 10 years they ultimately failed through their own hubris, gullibility, and the false belief that all of the gods were on their side. Should Johnson wish to draw upon the Iliad for future defensive analogies then I would urge him to look to my favourite hero of ancient myth, Ajax the Great. Also known as Ajax son of Telamon he was one of the prominent "Greek" (lets keep it simple and refer to the mass of allied city states/tribes by the collective "Greeks") heroes of the poem. Ajax wields a huge shield made of seven cow-hides with a layer of bronze. In the Iliad he is notable for never being wounded in any of the battles described, and he is one of only two principal characters (on either side) who do not receive substantial divine assistance. He is a defensive bulwark, massively strong and tall and instrumental in the Greek defence of the body of Patroclus after he falls imitating Achilles in one of the most important battles in the poem. He is the archteypal defensive warrior of western history or myth and unlike the Trojans, Spartans, or Horatius Cocles his defence is never breached. My avatar is a picture of Ajax the Great.

You say the Spartans would be a better analogy. He should not refer to his defence as Spartans. If you are referring to King Leonidas, his 300 strong royal bodyguard, and the accompanying 7,000 support troops who fought at the battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC then you will of course also know that they also failed in their defence. Betrayed to the Persians by allies that had abandoned hope they were slaughtered to a man. If we defended valiantly for 60 minutes and then conceded 5 own goals - then perhaps the Spartans would be an appropriate analogy

"Oh stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that here we lie, obedient to their laws."

 

Only on OTIB .

 

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29 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Only on OTIB .

 

On the contrary it is not only on OTIB that you can discover the wonders of the ancient world. I will happily evangelize on this subject (in the Non-Football forum) as much as certain posters campaign for the use of Parson's Street station or the repair of the Dolman PA system.

As an introduction to the particular subject of the Trojan War I would recommend the 43 minute long BBC 4 In Our Time podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01j6srl

If you enjoy that then the British Museum currently has an exhibition on: https://www.britishmuseum.org/exhibitions/troy-myth-and-reality I have not visited but it is on for another month, and could be incorporated into the weekend when we next play in the capital at Millwall. Learn about the Trojans in the morning, then see if we defend like them in the afternoon.

Books should then follow of course. For ancient texts (not on Troy) I recommend Plato's Symposium , Polybius (in particular book IV of The Histories), and Xenophon's Persian Expedition (also known as The Anabasis). These three books deal, in turn, with the subjects of Love, Government, and War. I would recommend them to anyone with even a passing interest in modern discussions of those subjects. They provide a modern reader with a fascinating insight into the mind of the ancients and how they were different, but simultaneously markedly similar to our own. Penguin Classics are good, solid, cheap translations. The Penguin version of Symposium  was translated by my old university professor.

Anyway. COYR.

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