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Lee had offers.


glen humphries

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16 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Yes after cotterill.

And only Lee Tomlin of those signigs, you could say made the LJ squad better than Cotts squad.

For me tho, i think its clear, we were going down and that we would never go down under LJ.

Yep, the improvement under Pemberton and Elliott, aided by the signing of 2 new defenders as well as Tomlin, had definitely already started before LJ's arrival. 

I know you think we were going down under Cotterill, you've already made that clear.

Perhaps just accept it is no more than just your opinion and that many disagree with you for what they feel are good reasons.

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3 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Can't disagree he hasn't performed well at this level. But i'd love to see what Cotts would've done with the same money LJ has been given. I felt Cotts bought very well. Not saying LJ hasn't... before anyone gets carried away 

Would have been nice . Cotts shot him self in the foot though with his ill judged confrontation with SL .

There was only ever going to be one winner there. 
 

Cotts is a fighter and self confessed winner but diplomat he ain’t. 
 

Did /does SL interfère too much with the playing side ? Or is that a myth ? 
 

 

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23 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Was Cotts actually trying (to be any good) though, August to January 15/16? 

I've often imagined he was deliberately being obtuse, but would've turnt it around in time to finish above the drop (Mk Dons were as bad as us in Jan 16 but did not have the means or need to do much about it, ie bring in quality. It wasn't a "disaster" for them to go straight back down).

Was it about Lee - the Pemberton/Wade/someone else axis turnt it around before Lee arrived - or was it about players? Quality on the pitch.

I don't know if Tomlin would've come here had Cotts stayed in the job, but Tomlin (on loan) made a big difference. I remember the other players saying this at the time. The Championship was easy to him, he was not phased by it, he was all "give me the ball, I can do this" confidence, which our L1 boys needed (from the start of that season).

It's the same with Lee now - he's doing better now than in 16/17 because the squad is much better and stronger. For the most part. I would argue/suggest.

Same for almost any coach - they're about as good as the players they've got (with some notable, genius exceptions, ie a Brian Clough).

I think Cotts was messing around, because he couldn't have his way, but all the while knowing he could do enough to keep us up and not add a relegation to his cv/locker.

But I have nothing to base this upon beyond what was said on here at the time and my fertile imagination.....

No I think that's a fairly fanciful theory - why would anyone purposely sabotage themselves? I think there were times he tried to send a message to the board through not filling the bench, but in my opinion nothing more than that.

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13 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Can't disagree he hasn't performed well at this level. But i'd love to see what Cotts would've done with the same money LJ has been given. I felt Cotts bought very well. Not saying LJ hasn't... before anyone gets carried away 

Well according to some LJ doesn't have a say in recruitment.

Unless of course the signings do well that is..

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3 minutes ago, Riaz said:

I've heard it all now! A manager purposely doing badly!

You haven't heard it all yet, mate.

I have another far-fetched theory about Lee, based upon a sketchy knowledge of Freudian theory, and father/son dynamics, sons not outdoing the achievements of their fathers/stirring up feelings of fatherly envy, and why we indulge in seemingly inexplicable self-sabotage (eg, ac-tor Hugh Grant, as his film career first took off) at times, and how this means Lee will never finish higher than fifth, or win a play-off final. Not with us, at least.

21 minutes ago, Riaz said:

 

Come on now. 

Bonkers, I know. Sorry.

How else do we explain Engvall, Diony, three successive seasons of being-right-up-there, then-fading-away (if this is what goes on to happen this season)?

1 hour ago, Riaz said:

He was woeful and ran out of ideas. 

Freud? Really??

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27 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Longest serving manager in the Championship at one time.

2004-07 to be precise. Quite a long time ago.

Hasn't been in work for two years now, since a poor spell at Brum where he had a 25% win ratio.

Interestingly, Cotterill managed 161 times at Burnley with a 34% win ratio.

Johnson has managed City 207 times with a win ratio of 40%.

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8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

2004-07 to be precise. Quite a long time ago.

Hasn't been in work for two years now, since a poor spell at Brum where he had a 25% win ratio.

Interestingly, Cotterill managed 161 times at Burnley with a 34% win ratio.

Johnson has managed City 207 times with a win ratio of 40%.

If ever a stat summed up how unfair some of the criticism of Johnson is, it’s that. 

Higher win % than Dean Smith at Brentford who everyone on this forum would say did an absolutely fantastic job there. 

Funny old game. 

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4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I agree, Derby is a huge game. They're a team with a strong squad who have underachieved - their form is beginning to turn. On paper they're probably a playoff side looking at their squad. Beating them will be a big achievement and should help to ease concerns.

Do you genuinely believe that we will beat Derby? @Phileas Fogg

If your answer is yes, please tell me where I can buy such optimism.

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1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Nope, Cotts. had never overseen a relegation in a 20+ year career in management.

When the chips were down there were none better than him in salvaging a grim situation.

You and others might have thought relegation was inevitable - I, and others, completely disagree.

To say there was no doubt about it is nonsense.

Look at the league table when he left. Look at the games played, W & L. 
Look at the goals we were shipping, regularly. 
He was too ridged in his 5-3-2 formation and we couldn’t adjust to the pace & quality of the Championship. 
When he left (which was sad, no doubt) looked at how things picked up, instantly and have continued to do so for the following 4 years..! 

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5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Do you genuinely believe that we will beat Derby? @Phileas Fogg

If your answer is yes, please tell me where I can buy such optimism.

No I think it's a very tough game. I optimistically predicted we will get 4 points from WBA, Leeds and Derby. Derby probably the most winnable on paper but definitely wouldn't put any money on it.

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2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

We’ve beaten them on their own patch this season and have won more, lost fewer and scored more goals than them. 

Why shouldn’t we think we can beat them? 

Because, while Johnson has a good win ratio statistic, it is very rare in the last two seasons to win a home game that is important and more importantly, against sides who are chasing us for a place in the play off's.

We have blown most chances when a home win would take us up toward the top. I cannot see us overturning Derby just as we couldn't in the last home game last season!

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15 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

And we’re 5 points off of 2nd place. 

true - and so what beats me is finding any sort of explanation for Friday's debacle...or others this season (Luton and Barnsley away spring to mind) - how could a side with promotion potential in it throw away a gift of a lead against a side who statistically we ought surely to have beaten?

I'm not expecting you to answer btw...just expressing incomprehension!

City promotion sides have all had a certain swagger and steel about them, which the current outfit can only find on occasion. They don't have the smell of promotion about them...as yet...

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15 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If ever a stat summed up how unfair some of the criticism of Johnson is, it’s that. 

Higher win % than Dean Smith at Brentford who everyone on this forum would say did an absolutely fantastic job there. 

Funny old game. 

Talking of win ratios, which manager currently has a win % of 0.00 after 11 games?

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14 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

true - and so what beats me is finding any sort of explanation for Friday's debacle...or others this season (Luton and Barnsley away spring to mind) - how could a side with promotion potential in it throw away a gift of a lead against a side who statistically we ought surely to have beaten?

I'm not expecting you to answer btw...just expressing incomprehension!

City promotion sides have all had a certain swagger and steel about them, which the current outfit can only find on occasion. They don't have the smell of promotion about them...as yet...

In a nutshell - it’s the championship. Why did Leeds lose to Wigan at home two years running under world class Bielsa? 

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17 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If ever a stat summed up how unfair some of the criticism of Johnson is, it’s that. 

Higher win % than Dean Smith at Brentford who everyone on this forum would say did an absolutely fantastic job there. 

Funny old game. 

He did do a great job there though, bet he didn't get nearly as much to spend & also probably had far less of a say on transfers into the club than LJ gets here. 

They had and still do have a distinct way of playing every game. They don't abandon the style of football after one or two bad results. I have no idea what our 'identity' is and Dean Holden certainly doesn't going by his answer to that question the other day. 

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4 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

He did do a great job there though, bet he didn't get nearly as much to spend & also probably had far less of a say on transfers into the club than LJ gets here. 

They had and still do have a distinct way of playing every game. They don't abandon the style of football after one or two bad results. I have no idea what our 'identity' is and Dean Holden certainly doesn't going by his answer to that question the other day. 

So it’s better to have a defined identity and get worse results? I do actually agree that he did a good job there, but it’s funny that those same people wouldn’t say LJ has done a good job here where statistically he’s done every bit as well. 

And Brentford haven’t done it on the shoestring budget that people like to portray

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6 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I'm not running anywhere, @BobBobSuperBob is a big boy, but in the great oracles words "I’ve been reading aplenty, just can’t be arsed to get involved", so, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

Don't want to have a falling out with you @Nogbad the Bad as I think you are a really good poster, but I just can't deal with the negativity in what is one of the most promising seasons since I've been supporting the club.  I just don't get it.  
 

It’s not rocket science, fans a sick of watching absolute dross at almost every home game.

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1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Yep, the improvement under Pemberton and Elliott, aided by the signing of 2 new defenders as well as Tomlin, had definitely already started before LJ's arrival. 

That's simply not true.

We beat Boro in the game after Cotterill's departure but then lost at home to WBA in the cup and Leeds away, before drawing 0-0 at home to Birmingham. So, one win in four.

LJ joined before the 1-0 win at Charlton and he went onto oversee four wins in our next seven and guide the club to safety.

Some big wins at the end of that season, by the way. 6-0 v Bolton, 4-1 v Sheff Weds and 4-0 v Hudds. Just before SC departed we lost 3-0 to Rotherham, 4-0 Burnley, 4-0 Derby etc

So quite a significant turnaround in fortunes that almost certainly wouldn't have happened if SC had stayed.

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20 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

true - and so what beats me is finding any sort of explanation for Friday's debacle...or others this season (Luton and Barnsley away spring to mind) - how could a side with promotion potential in it throw away a gift of a lead against a side who statistically we ought surely to have beaten?

I'm not expecting you to answer btw...just expressing incomprehension!

City promotion sides have all had a certain swagger and steel about them, which the current outfit can only find on occasion. They don't have the smell of promotion about them...as yet...

Why did we lose to lowly little Birmingham? Remember they also beat Forest in their previous league match.

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1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's simply not true.

We beat Boro in the game after Cotterill's departure but then lost at home to WBA in the cup and Leeds away, before drawing 0-0 at home to Birmingham. So, one win in four.

LJ joined before the 1-0 win at Charlton and he went onto oversee four wins in our next seven and guide the club to safety.

Some big wins at the end of that season, by the way. 6-0 v Bolton, 4-1 v Sheff Weds and 4-0 v Hudds. Just before SC departed we lost 3-0 to Rotherham, 4-0 Burnley, 4-0 Derby etc

So quite a significant turnaround in fortunes that almost certainly wouldn't have happened if SC had stayed.

He was sat in the stands at charlton.

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2 minutes ago, glen humphries said:

He was sat in the stands at charlton.

I know, though seem to recall he gave a speech to the players pre-match so difficult to think he didn't have some sort of impact. Purely because players would want to impress the new manager in the stands, if nothing else. I didn't count that match in the "four wins in our next seven" stat though. Would've been five wins in eight if I'd included Charlton...

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Was Cotts actually trying (to be any good) though, August to January 15/16? 

I've often imagined he was deliberately being obtuse, but would've turnt it around in time to finish above the drop (Mk Dons were as bad as us in Jan 16 but did not have the means or need to do much about it, ie bring in quality. It wasn't a "disaster" for them to go straight back down).

Was it about Lee - the Pemberton/Wade/someone else axis turnt it around before Lee arrived - or was it about players? Quality on the pitch.

I don't know if Tomlin would've come here had Cotts stayed in the job, but Tomlin (on loan) made a big difference. I remember the other players saying this at the time. The Championship was easy to him, he was not phased by it, he was all "give me the ball, I can do this" confidence, which our L1 boys needed (from the start of that season).

It's the same with Lee now - he's doing better now than in 16/17 because the squad is much better and stronger. For the most part. I would argue/suggest.

Same for almost any coach - they're about as good as the players they've got (with some notable, genius exceptions, ie a Brian Clough).

I think Cotts was messing around, because he couldn't have his way, but all the while knowing he could do enough to keep us up and not add a relegation to his cv/locker.

But I have nothing to base this upon beyond what was said on here at the time and my fertile imagination.....

I don't think he was not trying but I think the bottom line is there was very clearly tension between him and the club and I suspect that impacted on both his own performance and the atmosphere within the club.

I don't think he was messing around or not trying but I do think that he ultimately let his relationship with the board and a desire to let everyone know he wasn't happy get in the way of actually doing the job. Which is completely human but I think there are times where a working relationship deteriorates to a point where it is just not in anyone's interest to carry on with it and I think that happened with Cotts.

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7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's simply not true.

We beat Boro in the game after Cotterill's departure but then lost at home to WBA in the cup and Leeds away, before drawing 0-0 at home to Birmingham. So, one win in four.

LJ joined before the 1-0 win at Charlton and he went onto oversee four wins in our next seven and guide the club to safety.

Some big wins at the end of that season, by the way. 6-0 v Bolton, 4-1 v Sheff Weds and 4-0 v Hudds. Just before SC departed we lost 3-0 to Rotherham, 4-0 Burnley, 4-0 Derby etc

So quite a significant turnaround in fortunes that almost certainly wouldn't have happened if SC had stayed.

People seem to have dodgy memories. LJ was sat in the stands for Charlton, but your point still stands. LJ undoubtedly saved us from relegation - something Cotts was never going to do.

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10 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

So it’s better to have a defined identity and get worse results?

Depends who you are, many debates over the years on this forum will tell you that many posters go to be entertained & would be disappointed with managers like Allardyce and Warnock who would probably get you out of this division but the football on offer would be rubbish to watch. 

I feel under Johnson the football is rubbish & has been for about 2 years now, we'll never be anything more than a nearly side. I don't see the point in getting rid now but when we inevitably miss out come the end of the season then I definitely would & I hope we'd bring someone quality in to replace him.

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2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Funny thing is if Cotts had gone on to do what LJ has then people would be saying build a statue of him! 

I think if LJ had done what he has on a shoestring, he’d be getting many more plaudits.  People say Cotts bought League One. He funded it with Baldock’s sale, kept a very small squad as the ground was developed. Deserved all the plaudits imho. Then he wasn’t backed in the summer.  Good eye for a player. But he did have a big strop. Can you imagine LJ getting promoted and MA /SL constraining him. LJ would have a strop too. 

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

Can't disagree he hasn't performed well at this level. But i'd love to see what Cotts would've done with the same money LJ has been given. I felt Cotts bought very well. Not saying LJ hasn't... before anyone gets carried away 

⬆️

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Would have been nice . Cotts shot him self in the foot though with his ill judged confrontation with SL .

There was only ever going to be one winner there. 
 

Cotts is a fighter and self confessed winner but diplomat he ain’t. 
 

Did /does SL interfère too much with the playing side ? Or is that a myth ? 
 

 

⬆️
 

He allegedly told SL to **** off out of the dressing room pre-game!  When Joe was mascot, he (Cotts) was nowhere to be seen in the dressing room. As we were ushered out, Cotts was waiting to go in. There’s no way he wanted any interference with his boys once he was in the room. Flint also went to a separate room when we walked in. No interaction with the mascots. Zoning in I suspect. 

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