50+ players. Really!!

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Rich said:

Strange how people call someone else out and demanding they show the research. Do they really expect you to dig again and show where you found something

Apparently so ...........and a full layout of the original data

, just because they want to point score against you? **** um, as you say, here's the link, look yourself.

 

[Spike]

19 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

You say Brownhill was poor on the right of midfield. I thought he was superb there in 17/18 season. I bet that is where Dyche will play him. If that is where he plays then credit to LJ for converting him into that position.

I really think we have to give LJ all the credit for Webster. He told Ashton to sign him and then had him playing better than he had previously.

There will be bad ones for sure. Did he even want Mo Eisa? Called him a 'club signing'. Strange way of describing a player if it was his signing.

I don't really see the potential in Eisa. He is now 4th choice striker for Peterborough. Their fans say he is very weak, dodgy touch and lightweight and does not try. So since leaving I'd say the evidence suggests he really is not upper championship standard.

Kent was poor and didn't suit our system. He was younger so has improved since, but that is the Scottish league which is worse than the championship.

Djuric was injured so often. He used him quite a bit when he was fit.

Engvall was a terrible signing. 

Diony LJ couldn't get his confiednece back having had a very good season 2 seasons before in France.

There will be examples of money wasted, players not improving. But overall we have made a lot of money from players that have improved under LJ. And some like Webster and Brownhill was mainly down to LJ that they came to us in the first place.

I've never been a fan of that statement "mainly down to LJ that they came to us in the first place" mainly because it's a one sided statement even if it holds weight. What I mean by this is even if that was the case had LJ not been our coach then someone else would have been and who is to say they wouldn't have signed them or maybe someone better. The idea that LJ somehow is an asset for signing players is null and void when you consider the connections that more experienced managers tend to have. If LJ wasn't here then someone else would be and with the structure we have around us who is to say they wouldn't be a bigger pull for better players.... it's just a game of what ifs. The unarguable fact is that we're yet to make the play offs under Lee despite selling and buying big. Another unarguable fact is that LJ talks a big game but he's now been here for 4 years and we're still only an outside chance to make the play offs. 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

LJ's best attributes are his gift of the gab, motivation and bonding a team. Tactically he's lower Championship at best and when it comes to consistency he's probably lower again. 

In your opinion

Quote

What we need is a manager /coach who is tactically strong, can find a consistent starting 11 and can motivate, everything else is already in place. Lee has one of those 3 key attributes for the role and that's why we're struggling, it's not the players we have, the money etc, we've got a great squad, we've got the money under control, what we need is someone who has experience with taking quality players and making them play attacking, confident football, not negative, hoof and cross counter football that is far too easy to sit back against. 

 

We're not really 'struggling' though are we? We're 7th!

52 minutes ago, Spike said:

I have to disagree with a few there, Joe always was a left back, he moved up to midfield and LJ simply moved him back there. 

Reid is probably the biggest plus LJ has had but I don't think it was down to any kind of incredible ability to read a player, he gave him a chance because he needed a spark up front, Bobby's hard work provided that spark.  I think if you have to credit LJ for any player, it's Reid. Seems incredibly mean spirited to deny him that one!

Brownhill was a great signing, he honestly showed so much potential when he signed but LJ played him our wide where he was poor, he continued to moved him between a central role and a wide one and often paired him with players that didn't compliment him. If anything I think Brownhills strongest part of his game is his natural technical ability that was improved on just by getting game tone. LJ's tactics were certainly not the reason he improved as he used him out of position for long periods of his progression and he never allowed him that role behind the striker but in front of the midfield where he's best suited to. He has moved for a huge profit - that's what counts ultimately. 

Webster I agree with in that LJ saw talent there but the fact he was in and gone so quickly just screams out that lots of people knew the potential was there but his injury was what was the real gamble. Once he held his fitness his ability showed, it was a great decision in hindsight but I feel we got him because we were the only ones willing to take the gamble on his fitness. Had he turned out to be a player who was always injured I'm not sure we'd have been so find on the move which is probably why we sold him so soon, to ensure we got peak value (which is a lot) incase he got injured again.  Of course someone had to gamble on him, we're lower in the pecking order than lots of clubs in this league. Another one LJ got right though.

Pack I kind of agree but wouldn't say we had a great player, more of a dedicated professional. With Lack he developed slightly and was an easier decision again because his initial fee to buy him was so low. Again big profit, that's what counts.

With those put aside how much has LJ lost on players, not just fees but wages of players who offered us absolutely nothing or never even got a chance? 

Ryan Kent - absolutely wasted here but put in the right tactical formation at Rangers and he's behind an instant fan favourite. Agreed

Woodrow - wasted loan again, never got a decent chance Agreed

Diony - Best not talked about Agreed

Engvall - Waste of time and money Agreed

Djuric - Had a role to play, never really given a chance - Injuries mitigating factor here

Mo Eisa - Such potential, fans wanted to see him play, never given a chance. - Agreed kind of but ultimately we still made a profit on him.

Don't get me wrong, we only lost wages on most of these but they were players that took a place and never contributed or even held us back in Dionys case. 

Currently we have Wells ready and raring to go and what did he get... 32 minutes off of the bench when we were already 2-1 down. Wells is one of those players who threatens defences, he needs to start because at 2-1 down Brum had the game and their confidence was high.  Johnson made a call, understandably, not to change a winning team. I don't necessarily agree with that stance but surely you can understand it.

 

[Robbored]

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Where are you sourcing these figures ?

Sky tv.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Sky tv.

So speculation then

 

Not the official site ?

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

I'd love to defend LJ but let's be fair, there are plenty of managers out there who given the backing and time he's been given would at the very least see us in the play offs and have some sort of footballing identity. We're so one dimensional under LJ right now and I'll be genuinely surprised if we take more than 3 points in the rest of February's games which would put us firmly out of the running. 

I daresay that there are plenty of managers out there who would seriously struggle with having to sell your better players every season - SC for example............

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

So speculation then

So Sky sports speculate do they?       

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I daresay that there are plenty of managers out there who would seriously struggle with having to sell your better players every season - SC for example............

You are getting mixed up

Lee Johnson sold SC’s  best players............

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Lee Johnson sold SC’s  best players............

Kelly, Webster, Brownhill.......played under SC did they?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Spike said:

I've never been a fan of that statement "mainly down to LJ that they came to us in the first place" mainly because it's a one sided statement even if it holds weight. What I mean by this is even if that was the case had LJ not been our coach then someone else would have been and who is to say they wouldn't have signed them or maybe someone better. The idea that LJ somehow is an asset for signing players is null and void when you consider the connections that more experienced managers tend to have. If LJ wasn't here then someone else would be and with the structure we have around us who is to say they wouldn't be a bigger pull for better players.... it's just a game of what ifs. The unarguable fact is that we're yet to make the play offs under Lee despite selling and buying big. Another unarguable fact is that LJ talks a big game but he's now been here for 4 years and we're still only an outside chance to make the play offs. 

But it is surely mainly down to him, almost entirely down to him if one said they signed for us because of him and the other he specifically told Ashton to sign? 

Tammy also joined because of LJ didn't he? At least that's what I think I remember Tammy saying, and many clubs wanted him.

I know there was no future profits to be made on Tammy, but it's another example of LJ doing well to get a player in.

Other managers may attract players too. But it doesn't change the fact Webster and Brownhill signed for us because of LJ.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Kelly, Webster, Brownhill.......played under SC did they?

Wtf are you on about ?

[JBFC II]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

I would like to point out that of the players sold under Johnsons tenure, approximately £35m of those sales were already at the club. So that would put him in deficit by some £14m, not taking into account the current playing staff values.

True, but you could also argue that he improved them all into players that were wanted by premier league sides. Did Joe Bryan/Aden Flint/Bobby Reid look like premier league/top half championship players in 2015/16 under Cotts? I’d say not, however LJ got us big money for all of them. Then add in Brownhill, Webster and Kelly, all LJ players, who he sold for high sums. 
 

I don’t really think you can take credit away from him for the sales we’ve had under his tenure 

[JBFC II]

15 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Wtf are you on about ?

You claimed LJ has sold SC’s best players, which in many respects is the case (although these are players that LJ developed into being worth what they were) but isn’t strictly the case (with regards to Webster, Kelly and Brownhill)

[Harry]

The consensus of opinion seems to suggest that :

1) if a player is sold for good money, it’s nothing to do with LJ’s coaching, 

but

2) if a player is crap, it’s completely down to LJ’s poor coaching. 

[AppyDAZE]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

The consensus of opinion seems to suggest that :

1) if a player is sold for good money, it’s nothing to do with LJ’s coaching, 

but

2) if a player is crap, it’s completely down to LJ’s poor coaching. 

:laugh: Fair point.

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

You claimed LJ has sold SC’s best players, which in many respects is the case (although these are players that LJ developed into being worth what they were) but isn’t strictly the case (with regards to Webster, Kelly and Brownhill)

BobbobSuperBob is a clever smart arse and so it’s not necessary to explain the obvious to him JBFC............

[JBFC II]

40 minutes ago, Robbored said:

BobbobSuperBob is a clever smart arse and so it’s not necessary to explain the obvious to him JBFC............

I thought I’d explain it nicely to him just in case he decides to attack my age or God forbid, call me a ‘wet wipe’...

[Rich]

2 hours ago, JBFC II said:

True, but you could also argue that he improved them all into players that were wanted by premier league sides. Did Joe Bryan/Aden Flint/Bobby Reid look like premier league/top half championship players in 2015/16 under Cotts? I’d say not, however LJ got us big money for all of them. Then add in Brownhill, Webster and Kelly, all LJ players, who he sold for high sums. 
 

I don’t really think you can take credit away from him for the sales we’ve had under his tenure 

I think you're being too generous towards LJ and his ability to make certain players better. Flint was never going to improve at his age, JB had already proven to be a great talent with fantastic ability who I believe would have got better with age and experience anyway and, BR was thrown into an attacking role because basically, we had nobody else. Don't forget, LJ was also the person who moved BR back behind the incoming Fammy into a less attacking role, which proved to be less than a good move for BR and his goals for in the 2nd half of that season. He also moved Paterson from behind BR to the wide left, then moved JB from wide left to left back. In my opinion the impact on performances and results all proved to be detrimental to those players effectiveness and form, from that point to the end of the season.

There could be an argument to the opposite to say that he's made certain players worse, also brought in others that have had no impact whatsoever, effectively no improvement. I think the credit for increasing a players value should mostly go to the team organising those players contracts and making sure we cash in at the correct time, because as sure is eggs is eggs, LJ wouldn't have wanted any of those to leave. Obviously some credit to the coaching team at Failand and Plymouth for both BR and JB.

Lee Tomlin, that's another matter, could Kasey Palmer end the same way?

[BobBobSuperBob]

56 minutes ago, Robbored said:

BobbobSuperBob is a clever smart arse and so it’s not necessary to explain the obvious to him JBFC............

Always gives me a special chuckle when the troll doesn’t like the level of reaction or the tables are turned and are rattled 

Bless

Mind Robbie   , on a serious note , that bill for cleaning Gary’s office carpet was £453

They also found a pair of gonads that somebody had discarded ....

 

17 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

I thought I’d explain it nicely to him just in case he decides to attack my age or God forbid, call me a ‘wet wipe’...

And it didn’t take long did it , and well you said it

 

Nice to see you pitch in as is your trait, as  soon as you could team up with a

‘ Internet fweind ‘

How’s uni , spoken to a girl yet or anything ?

Have a good week

[JBFC II]

5 minutes ago, Rich said:

I think you're being too generous towards LJ and his ability to make certain players better. Flint was never going to improve at his age, JB had already proven to be a great talent with fantastic ability who I believe would have got better with age and experience anyway and, BR was thrown into an attacking role because basically, we had nobody else. Don't forget, LJ was also the person who moved BR back behind the incoming Fammy into a less attacking role, which proved to be less than a good move for BR and his goals for in the 2nd half of that season. He also moved Paterson from behind BR to the wide left, then moved JB from wide left to left back. In my opinion the impact on performances and results all proved to be detrimental to those players effectiveness and form, from that point to the end of the season.

There could be an argument to the opposite to say that he's made certain players worse, also brought in others that have had no impact whatsoever, effectively no improvement. I think the credit for increasing a players value should mostly go to the team organising those players contracts and making sure we cash in at the correct time, because as sure is eggs is eggs, LJ wouldn't have wanted any of those to leave. Obviously some credit to the coaching team at Failand and Plymouth for both BR and JB.

Lee Tomlin, that's another matter, could Kasey Palmer end the same way?

Of course flint improved when we he was here under LJ, players can still develop with age when they’re put in an environment that demands improvement, and that’s what happened with Flint. At the end of the 15/16 season most on here would have said Bryan was a decent championship player, but a premier league player? I heavily doubt it, that changed under LJ and was why Fulham were willing to take a risk on him. 
 

The Reid one is interesting, some like to claim that LJ should take no credit for him going from a decent centre mid to a 20 goal a season striker in a season because LJ was ‘forced’ into it, ultimately we won’t know either way. However, looking at it from the outside, I see an OK championship centre midfielder being turned into a very good goal scorer at this level, that isn’t something that happens by ‘luck’. Reid scored 9 of his 21 goals in the second half of the season, so really not a major difference and one that is easier to associate with our lack of form than a change in position. Furthermore, can you blame LJ for trying to include Fam,? Let’s not forget he was our record signing at that point and had a 1 in 2 record after his knee injury, not too shabby. 
 

Which players would you say he’s made ‘worse’? Obviously some signings haven’t worked out, but that happens at every club. I’m struggling to remember any player who has regressed after joining us though

[JBFC II]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Always gives me a special chuckle when the troll doesn’t like the level of reaction or the tables are turned and are rattled 

Bless

Mind Robbie   , on a serious note , that bill for cleaning Gary’s office carpet was £453

They also found a pair of gonads that somebody had discarded ....

 

And it didn’t take long did it , and well you said it

 

Nice to see you pitch in as is your trait, as  soon as you could team up with a

‘ Internet fweind ‘

How’s uni , spoken to a girl yet or anything ?

Have a good week

Funny how you haven’t responded to my other post but instead attack me, personally yet again. Uni’s good though thanks for asking, hope all is well with you. Good to see you back on here after your post in October time...

Oh and it’s friend, not ‘fweind’, although I suppose you’re trying to be cool or something?

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Always gives me a special chuckle when the troll doesn’t like the level of reaction or the tables are turned and are rattled 

Mind Robbie   , on a serious note , that bill for cleaning Gary’s office carpet was £453

They also found a pair of gonads that somebody had discarded ....

Jeez........wtf are you on about?      

LJ sold players he either developed or brought in to amass a cool £29m profit. Bryan, Reid,  Kelly, Webster, Brownhill none of which were SC players........Flint and Pack are not included.

[Phileas Fogg]

7 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

The Reid one is interesting, some like to claim that LJ should take no credit for him going from a decent centre mid to a 20 goal a season striker in a season because LJ was ‘forced’ into it, ultimately we won’t know either way. However, looking at it from the outside, I see an OK championship centre midfielder being turned into a very good goal scorer at this level, that isn’t something that happens by ‘luck’. Reid scored 9 of his 21 goals in the second half of the season, so really not a major difference and one that is easier to associate with our lack of form than a change in position. 

Good post. Some people really have a serious problem with crediting Johnson with the Reid positional change in particular for some reason.

I think that's because it goes strongly against some people's narrative that Johnson is totally incompetent. In fairness to Johnson, the Reid example is a brilliant piece of coaching and he should be applauded for it.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Funny how you haven’t responded to my other post but instead attack me, personally yet again. Uni’s good though thanks for asking, hope all is well with you. Good to see you back on here after your post in October time...

Oh and it’s friend, not ‘fweind’, although I suppose you’re trying to be cool or something?

I havnt a clue what you are on about re a post in October and me not posting for a fair while ... if your hoping or insinuating I had any sort of ban for something I’m afraid you will be dissapointed

Interestingly I noticed that you stopped posting and then reappear when I’ve recently posted ..... how weird 

And funny 

[JBFC II]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I havnt a clue what you are on about re a post in October and me not posting for a fair while ... if your hoping or insinuating I had any sort of ban for something I’m afraid you will be dissapointed

Interestingly I noticed that you stopped posting and then reappear when I’ve recently posted ..... how weird 

And funny 

Actually yeh I haven’t posted since last night, good spot. Although not posting on a forum for around 20 hours is hardly something extraordinary is it... 

You know full well what post I’m on about, hopefully you’ve come to realise how wrong you were in that instance

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

Actually yeh I haven’t posted since last night, good spot. Although not posting on a forum for around 20 hours is hardly something extraordinary is it... 

You know full well what post I’m on about, hopefully you’ve come to realise how wrong you were in that instance

I havnt got a clue what you are on about and tbh not interested in your particular view or opinion to be quite honest

I was referring to you not posting for weeks on end and wondered whether you’d found The delights of Czech lagers or a girl or something but hey ho ...... there’s time

[JBFC II]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I havnt got a clue what you are on about and tbh not interested in your particular view or opinion to be quite honest

I was referring to you not posting for weeks on end and wondered whether you’d found The delights of Czech lagers or a girl or something but hey ho ...... there’s time

Not posting for weeks on end? Can’t remember the last time I did that (not that it really matters...) 

And yep there’s always time for Czech lagers, why a middle aged man is so intrigued about the love life of a 20 year old is beyond me though ngl. 

Anyway, so this thread doesn’t derail I’m willing to call a truce now, have a good evening with your Czech lagers!

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I think it is largely down to LJ the transfer profits. Improving players is one of his strengths.

Firstly I do believe LJ has improved players, but as I posted earlier, if you sign players in their key ages / stage of development (late teens / early 20s) they ought to be some “automatic” improvement for nothing.  The question becomes how “much more” has LJ added.  I do think we can all be too choosy and inconsistent with our subjective views.

Reid - many fans wanted to get rid for a small fee.

Ignore fans view though.  In fact “small fee”?  Some wanted his contract ripped up

LJ said he is converting to a striker in preseason and most fans could not believe it. It seemed like no one had thought of him possible of doing that. A season later 10 million. If he'd done what many fans were suggesting he'd have got less than even a million before converting him into a striker.

you have to give LJ credit for that opportunity, but also remember it was driven by injuries pre-season to Taylor and Djuric, and also Reid has played all his youth football up front.

Bryan - He moved his position to left back. Whether he was always at his best or not, Fulham felt he was so good they'd spend 6 million on him and play him in the prem.

He didn’t move his position at all.  He was already a LB, but also a versatile left sided player too.  Cotts gave him the LWB role in his system to make the best of his attacking attributes.  By your argument, LJ may stifled his development by playing him LM.

Flint - Since leaving he has apparently been very poor at Boro, and now poor at Cardiff. When with us LJ had him playing very well. Seems like he was playing much better under LJ than he has since leaving us. 7 million for Flint, thank you very much LJ. Incredible we got that for him.

I think that both Cotts and LJ deserve credit, you can’t just say “thanks LJ”.  SoD for spotting him, but then making him play a system of boring football that exposed him deserves praise and criticism.

Kelly - LJ trusted in him and played him. He played extremely well and we got 15 or whatever million from Bournemouth. Also even though Kelly was clearly a fantastic prospect in the England set up, Johnson must have had a part in him signing a long term deal which would have helped us getting the money we did. He must have  believed in LJ to sign that deal and not let the previous contract run down.

Cotts gave him him first break-through, don’t forget that.  Re Kelly’s contract situations, that’s very speculative....I’m sure he played a part.  Some might argue he made Kelly worse, killed his confidence???

Webster - LJ said to Ashton to only sell Flint if he signs him Webster. So i'd say it was almost all down to LJ that we made so much money on Webster. Not only in signing him, but the Webster we saw in the first month or so was not even close to the player he became under LJ.

Buying a 23 year old CB with good Champ experience for £3.5m was indeed good business, especially as injury concerns Didnt re-materialise here.  Most CBs will improve with age.  He was key to us last season.

Brownhill - Signed for a small fee. Brownhill said in an interview he moved to us because of LJ. We just made a huge profit on him. He improved hugely under LJ. He was also converted into a wide right midfielder for a period of time. Brownhill has said he has never played there but it turns out it suits his game. I imagine that is where Dyche sees him playing rather like he does with Hendrik. That position change could have been key in getting interest from Burnley. That's down to LJ.

How much due to LJ.  Dedicated pro, ambitious pro?  As I said earlier - happy to give LJ credit here.  But on the flip, why hasn’t O’Dowda reached anywhere near the same heights under such a wonderful head-coach.

Even Kodjia I would say improved under LJ. He played at his best when on his own up top at the end of the season with Tomlin in behind. We got 11 million plus add ons for him.

Improved? Or found a midfielder on his wavelength?  Tomlin signed pre-LJ too.  LJ playing Kodjia wide at start of 16/17 was possibly one of the reasons he left!!

And Pack improved more than I ever imagined he could under LJ. He cut out the ridiculous hollywood balls. Was very good end of 16/17 when LJ came in, and had his best spell in the side in 17/18 with all that movement ahead of him, the likes of Pato and Reid. Improving Pack would have helped in getting 4 million, a decent sum I reckon for Pack.

Definitely improved under LJ.

There will be more i am sure. We have to surely give LJ credit for improving players he is coaching every day in training.

How about some balance re the ones who haven’t developed?  It’s a very one sided debate.  He ain’t the messiah.  But he isn’t a naughty boy either

 

at the end of the day, it’s quite correct to say Lee has had an influence on the values of several players.  But he’s also been in charge of a number of players who haven’t.  Just think we need a bit of balance....and recognise that others have played a part too.  As earlier too I can’t think of one player aged 25+ who’s had a renaissance / improved under Lee.  Maybe I’m being selective.  Rowe?  

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Kelly, Webster, Brownhill.......played under SC did they?

Kelly - given first break by Cotts pre-season.

Webster - given first break at Portsmouth by......Steve Cotterill

Brownhill - you are correct

just to add one more.....Marlon Pack.....given debut at Portsmouth by Cotts

 

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Of course flint improved when we he was here under LJ, players can still develop with age when they’re put in an environment that demands improvement, and that’s what happened with Flint. At the end of the 15/16 season most on here would have said Bryan was a decent championship player, but a premier league player? I heavily doubt it, that changed under LJ and was why Fulham were willing to take a risk on him. 
 

The Reid one is interesting, some like to claim that LJ should take no credit for him going from a decent centre mid to a 20 goal a season striker in a season because LJ was ‘forced’ into it, ultimately we won’t know either way. However, looking at it from the outside, I see an OK championship centre midfielder being turned into a very good goal scorer at this level, that isn’t something that happens by ‘luck’. Reid scored 9 of his 21 goals in the second half of the season, so really not a major difference and one that is easier to associate with our lack of form than a change in position. Furthermore, can you blame LJ for trying to include Fam,? Let’s not forget he was our record signing at that point and had a 1 in 2 record after his knee injury, not too shabby. 
 

Which players would you say he’s made ‘worse’? Obviously some signings haven’t worked out, but that happens at every club. I’m struggling to remember any player who has regressed after joining us though

That’s cake and eat it isn’t it?  Credit the ones that work out to LJ, but the ones that don’t, aren’t anything to do with him.  If you give him credit (which is fine) then at least be consistent and be critical of him for those that haven’t!

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

18 hours ago, La Plage said:

As I have tried to say several times, LJ is what he is some love, some hate. However no tactics no best 11 and certainly no plan B c d e f g, that is the real issue.

 

The talk of 'no best 11' always amuses me.  When did the concept of having a 'best 11' last exist?  It's over 40 years since we went up only using about 14 players.  The modern game is a squad game, and almost every club rotates unless, of course, you are on a winning run, as we were when we lined up against Birmingham on Friday night.