Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

Sign in to follow this  
AshtonRobin21

Light in midfield

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I really don't share your opinion of Pack's ability on the ball. He can't take it in tight spaces like Korey or Brownhill could, or on a good day Nagy can or Massengo too.

He had physical strength that could help him shield the ball but usually did that very deep anyway when dropping into safe areas of the pitch.

Pack couldn’t receive a ball in tight spaces like Korey or Brownhill?? Ha ha. 
Not wishing to be rude but oh my days!!! 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Harry said:

Pack couldn’t receive a ball in tight spaces like Korey or Brownhill?? Ha ha. 
Not wishing to be rude but oh my days!!! 

I don't think any of them could! including Pack!

Pack's favourite move was to take the ball off the centre half's toe when the opposition had backed off and play a simple pass that the Centre half could have played himself. Did my head in. 

Edited by Kibs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Pack couldn’t receive a ball in tight spaces like Korey or Brownhill?? Ha ha. 
Not wishing to be rude but oh my days!!! 

Yet Brownhill has moved on to the prem. Pretty sure Pack would have moved on to bigger things if he was that good on the ball, considering he is so big and strong. 

You say it yourself. Pack faces his own goal. He can use his body to shield it. He didn't like taking the ball 10 or so yards further forward in tight spaces.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kibs said:

I don't think any of them could! including Pack!

Pack's favourite move was to take the ball off the centre half's toe when the opposition had backed off and play a simple pass that the Centre half could have played himself. Did my head in. 

I think many fans completely underestimated Pack, or to a large extent didn’t understand his role. 
Have a look at us now when we have the ball. How many passing options do our players have? Often none. Which results in a long ball forward. 
Pack had his deficiencies, but one of his biggest strengths was always being available for a pass, and happy to receive a pass with an opponent in close proximity, and to not panic when receiving the ball in such areas. 
What we have now is a far far cry from that. We have no passing options, no one willing to receive the ball in tight spaces and no one capable of the slightest bit of composure when receiving it with an opponent close. Panic panic panic, long ball, lump it, kick it out. 
I think your view of Pack is highly flawed. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think many fans completely underestimated Pack, or to a large extent didn’t understand his role. 
Have a look at us now when we have the ball. How many passing options do our players have? Often none. Which results in a long ball forward. 
Pack had his deficiencies, but one of his biggest strengths was always being available for a pass, and happy to receive a pass with an opponent in close proximity, and to not panic when receiving the ball in such areas. 
What we have now is a far far cry from that. We have no passing options, no one willing to receive the ball in tight spaces and no one capable of the slightest bit of composure when receiving it with an opponent close. Panic panic panic, long ball, lump it, kick it out. 
I think your view of Pack is highly flawed. 

I think we have this now in the chap on loan from Hull

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Kibs said:

I don't think any of them could! including Pack!

Pack's favourite move was to take the ball off the centre half's toe when the opposition had backed off and play a simple pass that the Centre half could have played himself. Did my head in. 

Not saying Brownhill or Korey are top top quality at it but they can do it better than Pack. They have a better touch, much sharper in their movements with the ball and willing to face goal, face a player that risks losing the ball, but also helps drive us on. Not drop back every time into safe zones.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we massively miss two things especially right now -
 

1) As @Harry says - technical midfielders that are genuinely happy, and good on the ball in tight spaces.

2) Enough players that can comfortably travel, with the ball, at pace and purpose up the field, especially under pressure. 

Edited by Alessandro
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

Not saying Brownhill or Korey are top top quality at it but they can do it better than Pack. They have a better touch, much sharper in their movements with the ball and willing to face goal, face a player that risks losing the ball, but also helps drive us on. Not drop back every time into safe zones.

Honestly I’ve never heard such rubbish. Korey has a better touch than Pack. Ha ha. My word! 

2 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

I think we have this now in the chap on loan from Hull

Hopefully so 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

I think we massively miss two things -
 

1) As @Harry says - technical midfielders that are genuinely happy, and good on the ball in tight spaces.

2) Enough players that can comfortably travel, with the ball, at pace and purpose up the field, especially under pressure. 

Everyone is ignoring Nagy ability on the ball then? Especially  as a holding midfielder 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Honestly I’ve never heard such rubbish. Korey has a better touch than Pack. Ha ha. My word! 

Hopefully so 

Think you over estimate what pack is good at and don’t see his flaws very well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RedDave said:

Everyone is ignoring Nagy ability on the ball then? Especially  as a holding midfielder 

No they’re not. Nagy has been caught in possession in his own half more times in 10 games than Pack did in 2 seasons! 
He’s quicker than Pack, but doesn’t have half the brain or composure 

  • Hmmm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Harry said:

Honestly I’ve never heard such rubbish. Korey has a better touch than Pack. Ha ha. My word! 

Hopefully so 

Pack's technique was pretty poor really. Even in league one he'd not be comfortable in tight triangles with Freeman and Korey and would so often do a pointless pass to the other side of the pitch when we had been building something that would ruin a good move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Not saying Brownhill or Korey are top top quality at it but they can do it better than Pack. They have a better touch, much sharper in their movements with the ball and willing to face goal, face a player that risks losing the ball, but also helps drive us on. Not drop back every time into safe zones.

Koreys touch is terrible - there is absolutely zero chance that Korey is a better footballer than Pack, absolutely none at all 

Edited by Rob k

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RedDave said:

Think you over estimate what pack is good at and don’t see his flaws very well. 

I know exactly what his flaws are. Pace. 
If he could run he would’ve been in the Prem, without a shadow of doubt 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I think we massively miss two things -
 

1) As @Harry says - technical midfielders that are genuinely happy, and good on the ball in tight spaces.

2) Enough players that can comfortably travel, with the ball, at pace and purpose up the field, especially under pressure. 

Massengo has amazing technique. I think a lot of our problems are the shape of our team. 442, we have less options to pass to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Pack's technique was pretty poor really. Even in league one he'd not be comfortable in tight triangles with Freeman and Korey and would so often do a pointless pass to the other side of the pitch when we had been building something that would ruin a good move.

Pack’s technique was poor? 
Oh good lord, this is absolutely laughable now. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Harry said:

Pack’s technique was poor? 
Oh good lord, this is absolutely laughable now. 

Yep. Pretty poor. His strength is what he used to maybe give the impression he had good technical ability with his feet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Everyone is ignoring Nagy ability on the ball then? Especially  as a holding midfielder 

Yes I’m hoping he will be that player - but as I said, we miss it because he’s not it right now, either because of fitness or form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I think we massively miss two things especially right now -
 

1) As @Harry says - technical midfielders that are genuinely happy, and good on the ball in tight spaces.

2) Enough players that can comfortably travel, with the ball, at pace and purpose up the field, especially under pressure. 

We will address this weakness in our team this coming summer by selling someone from an area of the team where we are currently strong, and then address that ensuing weakness up front, created by the trading of said strength, next January, by selling one of the fellas that is happy receiving the ball in tight spaces, or able to comfortably travel, with the ball, at pace up the field. And then, in response to that, we will sell .....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Harry said:

No they’re not. Nagy has been caught in possession in his own half more times in 10 games than Pack did in 2 seasons! 
He’s quicker than Pack, but doesn’t have half the brain or composure 

Making up stats to make a point is pretty poor Harry. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ignoring our thoughts on Pack, etc for a mo (but I agree with you @Harry and I’ve been critical of him at times), and not trying to bash LJ, if you were giving the pre-match team talk and tactical instruction yesterday, with the eleven you’d selected, would you:

  • have gone 442 for the first 15-20 minutes
  • tried to pass it out from deep for the first 15-20 minutes

I had no probs with the eleven selected, especially knowing Fam was ill, and later finding out so was Weimann, and Benkovic a calf niggle.  But if ever there was a place to go and not let the home team build up a head of steam, it was Elland Road.  We needed to take the sting out the game, grow into it.

I know I’m no coach, but I would’ve been playing a 5 man midfield (in whatever shape you like) and trying to turn them around (by hitting balls down the sides) and then pushing up behind.  Of course there’s more too it than that, but hopefully you get the gist.

I don’t think it needed a back 3/5, with Leeds playing Bamford, there was no need for 3 CBs.

Interested in your thoughts @Harry, @spudski and @Phileas Fogg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Not saying Brownhill or Korey are top top quality at it but they can do it better than Pack. They have a better touch, much sharper in their movements with the ball and willing to face goal, face a player that risks losing the ball, but also helps drive us on. Not drop back every time into safe zones.

Brownhill and Smith have their own qualities, but I think you're wrong here. Smith and Brownhill both used to take lots of touches on the ball when in possession. I think that gave them the illusion of being 'comfortable in possession' when actually Pack, who took less touches and more meaningful ones, was actually showing his composure and confidence on the ball from this. 

Pack's biggest downfall was probably his speed. He's not quick over short distances. If he was quicker I think he'd be comfortably a Premier League player. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Harry said:

No they’re not. Nagy has been caught in possession in his own half more times in 10 games than Pack did in 2 seasons! 
He’s quicker than Pack, but doesn’t have half the brain or composure 

I think we need to wait and see with Nagy.  He was so impressive in those opening 2.5 games and at Fulham, and think there’s an adjustment period to be considered here.  I think he really does have “the game”, but his ankle injury has not helped.  Reckon he’ll have an op at some point (summer) and then we can judge properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Brownhill and Smith have their own qualities, but I think you're wrong here. Smith and Brownhill both used to take lots of touches on the ball when in possession. I think that gave them the illusion of being 'comfortable in possession' when actually Pack, who took less touches and more meaningful ones, was actually showing his composure and confidence on the ball from this. 

Pack's biggest downfall was probably his speed. He's not quick over short distances. If he was quicker I think he'd be comfortably a Premier League player. 

I'd say the amount of touches was Pack's main problem! Too long and slow on the ball a lot of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring our thoughts on Pack, etc for a mo (but I agree with you @Harry and I’ve been critical of him at times), and not trying to bash LJ, if you were giving the pre-match team talk and tactical instruction yesterday, with the eleven you’d selected, would you:

  • have gone 442 for the first 15-20 minutes
  • tried to pass it out from deep for the first 15-20 minutes

I had no probs with the eleven selected, especially knowing Fam was ill, and later finding out so was Weimann, and Benkovic a calf niggle.  But if ever there was a place to go and not let the home team build up a head of steam, it was Elland Road.  We needed to take the sting out the game, grow into it.

I know I’m no coach, but I would’ve been playing a 5 man midfield (in whatever shape you like) and trying to turn them around (by hitting balls down the sides) and then pushing up behind.  Of course there’s more too it than that, but hopefully you get the gist.

I don’t think it needed a back 3/5, with Leeds playing Bamford, there was no need for 3 CBs.

Interested in your thoughts @Harry, @spudski and @Phileas Fogg

I think trying to take the sting out the game was probably the right move. A risky strategy though as Leeds are very dangerous and it could easily have been a disaster if we'd let Leeds build too much momentum. We're lucky they don't have a top level striker.

In hindsight I think the second option of passing it from deep and trying to keep possession would've been a sensible plan. Ideally you'd need someone very comfortable on the ball in defence to make that work - I notice LJ talked about Benkovic being good on the ball during the week so I think he sees him as our new ball playing defender. 

I was surprised with the team yesterday, I originally wanted (for the first time since the SC days) us to play a 5-3-2 but after reading some really good posts about why a 5-3-2 would be a bad idea I changed my mind and wanted to see us unchanged, but with Nagy for Massengo. Didn't know Diedhiou was unwell at the time.

In hindsight, I agree with you the 5 man midfield suggestion. I think it probably was the game for Tommy Rowe in midfield yesterday, just to keep it simple and keep the ball moving. I'd have had Wells up top on his own (not ideal) with probably Paterson and Eliasson as the wingers. Allow Henriksen to get forward where necessary with Nagy and Rowe mopping up.

Probably wouldn't be too pretty to watch, but could've stifled Leeds and with a bit of luck maybe we could've grabbed on one the break. 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I'd say the amount of touches was Pack's main problem! Too long and slow on the ball a lot of the time.

What I mean are these little touches to move the ball about, not necessarily to move the ball anywhere in particular. There's nothing wrong with it necessarily but I think when players do this it creates the illusion they're 'good on the ball' when perhaps it's actually the opposite. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Massengo has amazing technique. I think a lot of our problems are the shape of our team. 442, we have less options to pass to.

Amazing technique in what sense?

His last few appearances have shown someone who certainly has great potential. Yes he is learning the game and can put himself about and make interceptions/blocks/challenges - but the ‘what to do next’ is missing too often. 

Where he used to use his body to shield the ball, he’s now getting robbed regularly and his ability to find a pass is not good enough yet.

Point in case yesterday, I can think of at least a few examples of him picking up the ball around our penalty box and playing a soft nothing ball back to the opposition. Or getting the ball in space with options and not knowing which one to play. I actually think sometimes he is so full of energy and effort that he wants to do everything at 110% and 100 MPH, he ends up making the wrong, rushed decision. 
 

Anyway, this is not a bash at Massengo but highlighting the point that IMO we do lack that cool/composed head in the middle who’ll comfortably receive and recycle the ball, right now.

Next season it could well be a fit Nagy or a developed Massengo. But that doesn’t help us now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Brownhill and Smith have their own qualities, but I think you're wrong here. Smith and Brownhill both used to take lots of touches on the ball when in possession. I think that gave them the illusion of being 'comfortable in possession' when actually Pack, who took less touches and more meaningful ones, was actually showing his composure and confidence on the ball from this. 

Pack's biggest downfall was probably his speed. He's not quick over short distances. If he was quicker I think he'd be comfortably a Premier League player. 

Pack, up until 18/19 season was everything Harry describes imho.  18/19 season saw a tactical change that meant everything went through him, and it became easier to stifle us.  Webster’s abilities helped, but too often as Webby stride into midfield, Pack dropped into CB (admirable, sensible, but not always necessary) when at times he needed to be the overload in the middle of the pitch.

As for Brownhill, Good player, good at most things, but master in none. Heavy touch under pressure, because not fully composed on the ball.  Like his mate O’Dowda, has to play with his head looking at the ball and feet.  When at pace, cant lift head to pick the pass, without over-running it.  Not saying either is bad, but when you look at players like Dasilva, they play with their head-up, because they trust their touch.

When watching midfield players it’s invariably the first thing I look at.  Can they get their head-up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Amazing technique in what sense?

His last few appearances have shown someone who certainly has great potential. Yes he is learning the game and can put himself about and make interceptions/blocks/challenges - but the ‘what to do next’ is missing too often. 

Where he used to use his body to shield the ball, he’s now getting robbed regularly and his ability to find a pass is not good enough yet.

Point in case yesterday, I can think of at least a few examples of him picking up the ball around our penalty box and playing a soft nothing ball back to the opposition. Or getting the ball in space with options and not knowing which one to play. I actually think sometimes he is so full of energy and effort that he wants to do everything at 110% and 100 MPH, he ends up making the wrong, rushed decision. 
 

Anyway, this is not a bash at Massengo but highlighting the point that IMO we do lack that cool/composed head in the middle who’ll comfortably receive and recycle the ball, right now.

Next season it could well be a fit Nagy or a developed Massengo. But that doesn’t help us now!

I mean just based on ability on the ball Massengo is quality. Brownhill said it himself 'his technique is ridiculous.'

That skill he does to create room when a player comes in to tackle is fantastic. Sort of jump and drag back with the studs.

Just saying what I feel the ability he has technically. Of course he isn't playing consistently really well every game. But he has the technical ability for sure.

He wouldn't be France under 19 attacking midfielder without it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think many fans completely underestimated Pack, or to a large extent didn’t understand his role. 
Have a look at us now when we have the ball. How many passing options do our players have? Often none. Which results in a long ball forward. 
Pack had his deficiencies, but one of his biggest strengths was always being available for a pass, and happy to receive a pass with an opponent in close proximity, and to not panic when receiving the ball in such areas. 
What we have now is a far far cry from that. We have no passing options, no one willing to receive the ball in tight spaces and no one capable of the slightest bit of composure when receiving it with an opponent close. Panic panic panic, long ball, lump it, kick it out. 
I think your view of Pack is highly flawed. 

This isn’t as a response to yesterday Harry (Ive hardly ever fancied  a City side to get anything at Elland Road )


I know you are a big Pack fan Harry and I concur about your comments about being brave and having the ability to take the ball in tight spaces for example - way ahead of Smith or Brownhill in that respect 

His faults were highlighted and his attributes were generally unappreciated 

But

Lee was full of himself back in August / Sept in his upgrading of the midfield - Nagy was being lorded by many as a messiah

What was the plan , the way of playing ?

Having watched us the last 6 months I have personally have absolutely no clue what the plan was , or is

As for your point

 ‘Have a look at us now when we have the ball. How many passing options do our players have? Often none. Which results in a long ball forward. ‘
 

i don’t think many would disagree with you , I’m not sure I can remember a side that  consistently lack Movement off the ball and giving the man on the ball options, a constant and regular theme on here

Why ?

Where is the evidence of work on the training ground ?

 

I find it mind boggling and very surprising for a number of reasons 

* For a two / three month spell during our Carabao Cup run , under LJ we absolutely did this and did it bloody well - the performance at the Etihad being the pinnacle and epitomy

* LJ himself was very good at moving 5 yards and making an angle and option for the man in possession , and something I thought he always did really well and his availability to recycle the ball an important cog in the sides he played in 

 

4 years in , I still see no sign of a playing ethos or plan , or coaching, in terms of a playing ethos and style being demonstrated on the pitch.

I do , at times see individual examples of work on training pitch bearing fruit on the pitch  (Eliasson’s far post on two occasions against Barnsley an example) but I still don’t see enough of a clear thought process and joined up thinking / planning regarding recruitment  and playing ethos

Its a flippant remark , but I can’t help thinking.  ‘he makes it up as he goes’ 

Our current League positioning is reasonable , decent , but the current Championship has little to fear , there are a clutch  Clubs are in a financial hole , there in transition or trying to find their feet after dives 

We , IMHO  barely benefit from LJ having been here four years IMHO, or certainly not as much as we should be 

As for losing six players from the Man United side for £40m - Lee didn’t want Flint , was happy to offload Hörður and Marlon , almost certainly would have liked to have kept Bobby , and probably Josh and Joe Bryan 

All of these players were regularly berated on here , Reid probably escaping the most ( once playing up top )

Lee’s had the opportunity , and options to, and been backed heavily to replace all of these with alleged strength in depth in each position 


In the current Championship , with a reasonable squad , a well drilled , organised and motivated side is going to probably get promoted 

We should be cashing in on the fact Lee has been allowed to build and ‘upgrade’ here for four years - Our ‘Ace’ card in comparison to every other Championship Club

Frustratingly , I don’t think we do , and I’m not sure I see that changing whilst Clubs at this level will regroup and I think the Championship will become even tougher in the next few seasons 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I mean just based on ability on the ball Massengo is quality. Brownhill said it himself 'his technique is ridiculous.'

That skill he does to create room when a player comes in to tackle is fantastic. Sort of jump and drag back with the studs.

Just saying what I feel the ability he has technically. Of course he isn't playing consistently really well every game. But he has the technical ability for sure.

He wouldn't be France under 19 attacking midfielder without it.

Agree with that, I’m certainly not denying his potential or pedigree.

What you described though was a tackling technique. 
 

It’s just, my opinion, that his technique in possession and when picking a pass, has been exposed in recent games - and in the context of the discussion on this thread of a certain type of midfielder - this season, for me, Massengo is not the answer right now. 
 

I think Massengo breaking up the play and being more developed on the ball, quickly feeding a fit and in form Nagy - would be a very exciting central midfield combo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think we need to wait and see with Nagy.  He was so impressive in those opening 2.5 games and at Fulham, and think there’s an adjustment period to be considered here.  I think he really does have “the game”, but his ankle injury has not helped.  Reckon he’ll have an op at some point (summer) and then we can judge properly.

Don’t think he’s happy here and I think he will be gone in Summer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think many fans completely underestimated Pack, or to a large extent didn’t understand his role. 
Have a look at us now when we have the ball. How many passing options do our players have? Often none. Which results in a long ball forward. 
Pack had his deficiencies, but one of his biggest strengths was always being available for a pass, and happy to receive a pass with an opponent in close proximity, and to not panic when receiving the ball in such areas. 
What we have now is a far far cry from that. We have no passing options, no one willing to receive the ball in tight spaces and no one capable of the slightest bit of composure when receiving it with an opponent close. Panic panic panic, long ball, lump it, kick it out. 
I think your view of Pack is highly flawed. 

I'm happy I fully understood his role. I didn't dislike Pack, and he did a perfectly reasonable job for a number of seasons but I think it's your view of Pack that is flawed - we'll have to agree to disagree there 🙂 

I think a bigger issue, rather than it being the ability of the players themselves (or lack of) is that we constantly change personnel, we constantly change system and so there is no consistency at all. Everyone is afraid to make a mistake. The players are in the main, completely devoid of any self belief which is astonishing for a team in our position.

Just to add - I think we saw in earlier games that Massengo and Nagy are both competent on the ball and under pressure but as the season has gone on, the worse they have become. 

Edited by Kibs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don’t think he’s happy here and I think he will be gone in Summer

Yeah something is up with him I think. The injury obviously hasn't helped, but there was that misunderstanding over playing for Hungary and a few hints he's given that he's found it hard to settle. I agree, think he'll be gone. Similar situation to Djuric in a way - hasn't settled despite looking very good in flashes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What I mean are these little touches to move the ball about, not necessarily to move the ball anywhere in particular. There's nothing wrong with it necessarily but I think when players do this it creates the illusion they're 'good on the ball' when perhaps it's actually the opposite. 

And

Lots of touches is often a clear sign and result of lack of movement and options , player in possession simply waiting for someone to move 

 

Back to ‘Lack of movement’ off the ball again 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Agree with that, I’m certainly not denying his potential or pedigree.

What you described though was a tackling technique. 
 

It’s just, my opinion, that his technique in possession and when picking a pass, has been exposed in recent games - and in the context of the discussion on this thread of a certain type of midfielder - this season, for me, Massengo is not the answer right now. 
 

I think Massengo breaking up the play and being more developed on the ball, quickly feeding a fit and in form Nagy - would be a very exciting central midfield combo

For me he's played superbly in a few games. But very inconsistent at the moment. Certainly bad games and decent enough games. Maybe not quite good enough when lacking consistency, not knowing what we'd get from him.

Not sure if tactics do him little favours. 442 away teams like Leeds with him in there. Pretty tough. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ignoring our thoughts on Pack, etc for a mo (but I agree with you @Harry and I’ve been critical of him at times), and not trying to bash LJ, if you were giving the pre-match team talk and tactical instruction yesterday, with the eleven you’d selected, would you:

  • have gone 442 for the first 15-20 minutes
  • tried to pass it out from deep for the first 15-20 minutes

I had no probs with the eleven selected, especially knowing Fam was ill, and later finding out so was Weimann, and Benkovic a calf niggle.  But if ever there was a place to go and not let the home team build up a head of steam, it was Elland Road.  We needed to take the sting out the game, grow into it.

I know I’m no coach, but I would’ve been playing a 5 man midfield (in whatever shape you like) and trying to turn them around (by hitting balls down the sides) and then pushing up behind.  Of course there’s more too it than that, but hopefully you get the gist.

I don’t think it needed a back 3/5, with Leeds playing Bamford, there was no need for 3 CBs.

Interested in your thoughts @Harry, @spudski and @Phileas Fogg

Obviously we weren't privacy to the niggles and injuries and illnesses pre kick off. I put a team up in another thread pre match, ' team to play Leeds' and the reasons.

Knowing what LJ did, I'd have not played Weimann. Or played 442. He was obviously limited with Smith and Nagy still injured and Benkovic niggle.

I would have gone...

________________Bents________________

______Kalas____Williams____Baker____

Hunt__Henriksen_HNM_Rowe__DaSilva

____________Wells_____Pato___________

Depending on situations 352, 532, 541, 3151 etc.

442 would have been the last formation I'd have gone. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don’t think he’s happy here and I think he will be gone in Summer

 

20 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Yeah something is up with him I think. The injury obviously hasn't helped, but there was that misunderstanding over playing for Hungary and a few hints he's given that he's found it hard to settle. I agree, think he'll be gone. Similar situation to Djuric in a way - hasn't settled despite looking very good in flashes. 

Me too in fact.  Think it will free up Morrell or Walsh to come back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are 100% light in midfield. We never seem to dominate other teams in midfield. No nastiness, we never bully teams. Other teams must love playing city, knowing full well they will have complete run of the middle of the park. How many times have we seen teams just drive through the middle of us and have so much time and space. Yet we seem to have to work extremely hard to create anything, or play on the break, even at home. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Red white and red said:

We are 100% light in midfield. We never seem to dominate other teams in midfield. No nastiness, we never bully teams. Other teams must love playing city, knowing full well they will have complete run of the middle of the park. How many times have we seen teams just drive through the middle of us and have so much time and space. Yet we seem to have to work extremely hard to create anything, or play on the break, even at home. 

100% light? We need to double our heaviness then just to be normal?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

No they aren't? The only one I can think of who's around that height is Liam Walsh.

HNM, Nagy, Henriksen, Smith (our primary CMs) are all taller than that by some margin. A very lazy thing to say.

C = circa. Theyre all small. Theyre all slight. Theyre all lacking physical strength. 
Adding Henriksen into the mix is finally LJ realising he needs some strength and height. 
nothing lazy about it. Our head coach has just started to learn his lesson. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/02/2020 at 17:16, Phileas Fogg said:

No it isn't. Your opinion on Johnson as a player is irrelevant and has no impact on his ability as a manager.

Midfield were poor today, think Massengo needs to play in a midfield 3. Henriksen still getting match fitness. Hands tied due to injury admittedly but a very poor performance. Fully expected a loss today though.

Think most of our CMs need to play in a midfield 3! They really do...we have a strong sqad but still there are better resourced clubs.

             Massengo Nagy

Weimann/Paterson? Henriksen Eliasson

           Wells

Henriksen can drop back into a 3 there, and help us with a 4-3-3 in certain phases. Playing Paterson as one of the 3 in and around central areas, leaves us too much to do IMO!

It's a wonky layout but it's a loose 4-2-3-1 that shifts into a 4-3-3 and back again.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, nickolas said:

C = circa. Theyre all small. Theyre all slight. Theyre all lacking physical strength. 
Adding Henriksen into the mix is finally LJ realising he needs some strength and height. 
nothing lazy about it. Our head coach has just started to learn his lesson. 

Height of Leeds, Brentford, Fulham, WBA midfielders?

Red. Herring. Slightly. That said Henkriksen may well improve us and balance in turn should improve.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It boils my piss how often we have been bossed in the middle of the park and continue to play 2 in CM. FFS play 3 in a 433. We are lightweight in midfield as we are often over run. Play 3 in the middle and 3 up top and I’m convinced we would play better. 

I cant ever remember LJ playing 3 in the middle of the park

  • Flames 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/02/2020 at 17:16, Phileas Fogg said:

No it isn't. Your opinion on Johnson as a player is irrelevant and has no impact on his ability as a manager.

Midfield were poor today, think Massengo needs to play in a midfield 3. Henriksen still getting match fitness. Hands tied due to injury admittedly but a very poor performance. Fully expected a loss today though.

I think both Nagy and Massengo need to get heavily into the gym this summer.

Remember when Reid did this. He was so much stronger and more confident

The championship is still a physical league unlike most of Europe. If these guys wnat to compete they have to get stronger

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

It boils my piss how often we have been bossed in the middle of the park and continue to play 2 in CM. FFS play 3 in a 433. We are lightweight in midfield as we are often over run. Play 3 in the middle and 3 up top and I’m convinced we would play better. 

I cant ever remember LJ playing 3 in the middle of the park

This, very much this! :clap:

I don't include Paterson, Palmer or O'Dowda as suited to being one of the 3. He has a real blindspot...I seem to recall we went 4-3-3 vs Stoke at home 2nd half last season and were very good! Butland had a great game, we hit woodwork twice, once in each half...granted they were a goal up and adjusted accordingly, plus Rowett is good at defending a lead but that 2nd half we had chances as in the first but control wise with 3 genuine CMs, we looked so much better- game before 2nd half at home to Hull, I think we made a similar switch?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/02/2020 at 17:12, Andy082005 said:

The head coach  was a weak, average midfielder....

....hardly rocket science how things have turned out mate 

Doesn't matter how many players we turn over....nowt changes 

A good percentage of successful managers were average players

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, BigTone said:

A good percentage of successful managers were average players

That reminds me of the famous Arrigo Sacchi quote.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrigo_Sacchi

Sacchi was never a professional football player (he had played as a part-time footballer in amateur clubs for some years) and for many years worked as a shoe salesman. This led to his famous quote directed at those who questioned his qualifications: "I never realised that in order to become a jockey you have to have been a horse first."

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

That reminds me of the famous Arrigo Sacchi quote.....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrigo_Sacchi

Sacchi was never a professional football player (he had played as a part-time footballer in amateur clubs for some years) and for many years worked as a shoe salesman. This led to his famous quote directed at those who questioned his qualifications: "I never realised that in order to become a jockey you have to have been a horse first."

 

Nay lad, nay

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...